Snipe, Earthgore, TimeStop and Cloak all need nerfs.

antihero727

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

antihero727 wrote: »

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

"Nerf Cloak"

This is a learn to play issue. Cloak is fine and has been nerfed into the ground many times over the years. It's the only skill NB have left that makes them different as a class.

There were many things that made sorc have a unique identity too. We see the care given on that case. Every class has their time to shine till the nerf hammer comes down. It’s about time since ever other class besides wardens have been nerfed to almost unplayable at one time or another.

"My class got nerfed so I want all classes to get the same treatment."

Tell me how this mentality is healthy for the game overall.

Because historically this is at the core of how ZOS balances things. Instead of bringing underperforming skills and sets up to the level of sets and skills people are using. They over nerf the performers till me have a what’s the one that sucks less mentality. It’s not healthy that’s the whole point and it’s not us as players behind the joke that has been balance over the last 5 years. If you haven’t seen it yet look at the initial race changes for high elf and now look at what the direction has gone, point made.

karekiz

templesus wrote: »

Here’s an analogy for you: two basketball teams are playing a series of 7 games to win the Championship. Team A has been mopping the floor with Team B, so after losing 3 games Team B decided they’re going to go to the Mob and put a hit on Team A’s best player, because he’s they're primary weakness. Team B then wins every game from there on.

Thats such a stretch that it kind of shows your out of line.

Why is this comparison bad?

You comparison is more similar to hacking the game then wearing a set built in game working literally as intended.

templesus

karekiz wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Here’s an analogy for you: two basketball teams are playing a series of 7 games to win the Championship. Team A has been mopping the floor with Team B, so after losing 3 games Team B decided they’re going to go to the Mob and put a hit on Team A’s best player, because he’s they're primary weakness. Team B then wins every game from there on.

Thats such a stretch that it kind of shows your out of line.

Why is this comparison bad?

You comparison is more similar to hacking the game then wearing a set built in game working literally as intended.

Because he said that no matter what they're better than you if you lose. I showed him the major flaw with that logical fallacy. Not a stretch at all.

pieratsos

ZonasArch wrote: »

You still failed to beat the guy you're claiming to be skilless, so you are, by absolutely all accounts, worse than they are. If their Zerg is huge and stupid OP because if OP set, assemble your Zerg, with pure damage sets and skilled players, and you will win.

Meanwhile, this zergling you couldn't kill will remain a better player than you.

You know why many people claim that those players are skilless? Because the second they are left outside of their group and the numbers are even they explode in 3 seconds. That should tell you all you need to know about their skill as players.

ZonasArch wrote: »

I'll tell you what... Get all the bad players you want, 24x24 balls groups matching in Cyro. Arm one with your average zergling gear, earthgore and all that. Arm the other group with whatever half decent damage set you want, say Zaan?, And go at it. 10/10 your Zaan group will vanish the earthgore one. It's not a matter of earthgore or not, it's a matter of playing the game and not the players. It's a valid winning strategy. Once the rule changes, they are done because they suck, but for now, if you wanna win, you'll have to play the game too. The rules and sets are the same for everyone. Get your own earthgore and go be at the top!

Do you even know how Zaan and Earthgore works? For starters, you are comparing Zaan and Earthgore in a discussion of player skill which in and of itself is hilarious but seriously, out of all the sets you could pick for 24v24, you chose a single target set to fight a group with earthgore? In the previous post you were talking about how choosing the right set is strategy and skill, and your set choice for fighting a massive group with massive on demand AOE heals is a single target set? And you actually believe that you would wipe them? lmao. I get it now, classic case of "i have no idea what im doing so im just running in a zerg thinking im good".

ZonasArch wrote: »

In time... This is exactly what happened multiple times in multiple fields if real life. Small example would be swimmers back in Beijing 2008 and their super swim suits. Not everyone had one and they got behind. Like... A LOT behind. Records were being toasted into a crispy barbecue. What happened? They changed the rules to even the odds for those with fewer resources. See the parallel? They had plenty of really good swimmers not making podium because some others that never performed that well had the suit. These are your zerglings playing the game... There was nothing in any rule book forbidding them to use suits. So they did. And the got better than actually skilled swimmers. And the actually skilled swimmers that jumped into the OP suit stuff, those shattered records. And doesn't matter how good you are... without the OP suit, you would not win. Same in PvP here.

I do see the parallel? Do you ? That example contradicts everything u just said about skill. You threw ur entire argument out of the window. They didnt allow the super swimsuits cause "its skill to use them". The exact opposite. They had to ban the super swimsuits because they allowed average swimmers to break world records. Meaning that using a super swimsuit doesnt make you a great swimmer genius. That was exactly my point. If i ride a jet ski to win a swimming competition that doesnt give me the right to say "in ur face Michael Phelps, im a better swimmer than you". Thats dumb. If you use Earthgore and it saves ur group that doesnt mean that you outplayed ur enemies. This is literally the moral of the example you used which is literally the exact opposite of what u were saying

And no, the solution to that isnt to shoehorn everyone into using the most broken set in the game to stay relevant. The solution is to actually change those broken sets and make them balanced so player skill is what actually matters. Which is exactly what they did in ur example. They banned the super swimsuits to put everyone on an even playing field and let the actual best swimmer win. They didnt tell them "u are not good swimmers because you dont have the right swim suits" which is basically what you are saying here.

I hope you can also understand my point beyond the poking fun part. If a set is overperforming, you bring it back in line. You dont shoehorn everyone into using it so they can stay relevant.

pieratsos

karekiz wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Here’s an analogy for you: two basketball teams are playing a series of 7 games to win the Championship. Team A has been mopping the floor with Team B, so after losing 3 games Team B decided they’re going to go to the Mob and put a hit on Team A’s best player, because he’s they're primary weakness. Team B then wins every game from there on.

Thats such a stretch that it kind of shows your out of line.

Why is this comparison bad?

You comparison is more similar to hacking the game then wearing a set built in game working literally as intended.

Except that the comparison wasnt about whether the set is working as intended or not but about whether its skilled or not. In that regard the comparison absolutely makes sense since the other guy also used an example from real life which is similar to hacking the game.

ZOS_JesC

Greetings, we've recently removed a few comments that were baiting/offtopic or derailing the thread. Please note, it is fine to share your opinion of mechanics or suggested changes. However, comments need to remain constructive and civil. Threads that derail into personal insults and bashing will be closed. Thank you for your understanding.

Irylia

likecats wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

labambao wrote: »

You want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec

Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!

Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.

First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.

The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.

Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.

I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make their playstyles and characters.

Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations, a bit too well occasionally. Therefore with all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.

1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.

2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.

Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.

Lmao
Zen only dueled
Kena lives In cloak in cyro the one time of the year he actually pvps
Who?

templesus wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

likecats wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

labambao wrote: »

You want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec

Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!

Reading some of your responses and wanted to reply.

First of all, your argument that cloak is only used by bad players is rhetorical garbage. I've played with Kena, Zendran, VitaBelial. One of these three is probably the best magblade in the world and they all used cloak when I played with them.

The thing about cloak is that it only scales in 1vX (same with shade), so calling people who use cloak zergling only displays your lack of understanding of the magblade class. In a 1v1 cloak is already a subpar option and most magblades use something else. Whenever I have a half decent team in BG's, I immediately remove cloak as I know that I won't be using it at all for the entire game. You can argue that some 1vXers crutch on cloak, and I'd agree, but claiming zerglings clutch on cloak is an inherently misinformed argument.

Your navel gazing opinion about cloak only being used by bad players also fails to acknowledge that cloak is a class defining ability that aids a certain playstyle. Sure you don't *need* cloak for a particular destro/resto build with some BIS set combination, but your short-sighted claims can easily destroy half a dozen different playstyles.

I could argue that good sorcs don't need streak, good templars don't need BOL (or cleanse), good DK's don't need wings, good wardens don't need shimmering shields. But all of these abilities are uniquely class defining abilities that people have specifically used to make

Cloak feel pretty balanced in BG's, and in cyrodil it scales really well in certain situations. With all that being said, I am not against cloak being rebalanced.

1) I don't mind having the cloak get the streak treatment; as long as you remove all counters that break/reveal cloak.
Streak while having a cost multiplier, guarantees that your character will move 22m or so. Guarentee my cloak isn't broken for 3 seconds I'm fine with the streak treatment.

2) I don't mind cloak getting the mist form treatment, granted you can guarantee that my cloak will not be broken for those 3 seconds. I love a good snare removal.

Keeping all the counters to cloak while significantly nerfing it a terrible balance decision. I highly doubt Kena (undisputably a great nightblade who uses cloak) would let that go through. Pick one or the other.

I never said Cloak is only used by bad players. Not once. I said nerfing it only nerfs bad players, because good players don’t need it to succeed. Your whole argument is a Strawman.

Cloak (stealth mechanic) needs a nerf. Period. At the same time it can be changed in such a way that it’s actually a buff for good players (snare removal). This is how the game should be balanced. Reward skill.

My apologies.

You said "Majority of good nightblades don't use cloak". Which would imply only a minority of good magblades use cloak. Which would imply most people using cloak are bad players (unless the minority of good players are a majority in using cloak). I take back the *only* part in my post above.

I strongly doubt the above claim, as I have nothing convincing me to believe it in my 4 years of magblade. (unless you are not talking about openworld). I'd love for you to name a better nightblade than the 3 of the ones I mentioned. All good mag nightblades I've met used cloak in openworld. In BG's, cloak is somewhat optional depending on your team. 1v1, cloak is subpar and almost no one uses it.

https://youtu.be/YuzJ2N2yg8w he doesn’t even main Magicka Nightblade. He mains a StamDK.

Maybe it’s a disparity between console and PC. But i can assure you on console (PS4 NA) that the top Magblades do not use cloak. It’s actually frowned upon.

https://youtu.be/9HjTCQMEcOg

Console players are chimps living 2 years in the past.
They run medium 2h bow with no snare immunity and heavy attack as their spammable with no stun.

The wardens don’t run shimmering or spore

Sub execute bird rally wings db
Lotus vigor netch poison injection frost armor thicket

Lmao that’s how ps4 “top” players play

FrankonPC

antihero727 wrote: »

Because historically this is at the core of how ZOS balances things. Instead of bringing underperforming skills and sets up to the level of sets and skills people are using. They over nerf the performers till me have a what’s the one that sucks less mentality. It’s not healthy that’s the whole point and it’s not us as players behind the joke that has been balance over the last 5 years. If you haven’t seen it yet look at the initial race changes for high elf and now look at what the direction has gone, point made.

If you go the other way where you bring every other skill up to the strength of that skill it can do two things:

1. Bring on a power creep in the game where characters are too strong
2. create more imbalance.

it's tough to balance how much stronger a skill is compared to the rest as it is, it's much easier and safer to bring it back into line. That is not always what happens, some skills get nerfed into the ground never to be used again...but the idea makes sense.

antihero727

FrankonPC wrote: »

antihero727 wrote: »

Because historically this is at the core of how ZOS balances things. Instead of bringing underperforming skills and sets up to the level of sets and skills people are using. They over nerf the performers till me have a what’s the one that sucks less mentality. It’s not healthy that’s the whole point and it’s not us as players behind the joke that has been balance over the last 5 years. If you haven’t seen it yet look at the initial race changes for high elf and now look at what the direction has gone, point made.

If you go the other way where you bring every other skill up to the strength of that skill it can do two things:

1. Bring on a power creep in the game where characters are too strong
2. create more imbalance.

it's tough to balance how much stronger a skill is compared to the rest as it is, it's much easier and safer to bring it back into line. That is not always what happens, some skills get nerfed into the ground never to be used again...but the idea makes sense.

It hasn’t worked all that great for the life of the game so far. Players are kiting by streaking, nerf. Players are now running and using LOS properly, nerf all forms of major expedition. This game was fast paced and group centered. Now because of a few antisocial low skill players we all have to bend to the will of the vocal minority. They are trying to balance for multiple play styles and are failing miserably. Say what you want but it’s hard to balance multiple directions with a single way of doing it, nerfing everything. Zos has been a 1 trick pony, hopefully switching the ponies recently will change this insanity.

Tholian1

templesus wrote: »

On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course)...

Some changes proposed on the Templar discord:

Cloak is given the mist form treatment(no healing or Magicka Regen while cloaked). There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently. Add snare immunity to base ability to compensate.

Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.

So that’s what the class discords are for. Discussing ways to nerf other classes abilities.

templesus

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course)...

Some changes proposed on the Templar discord:

Cloak is given the mist form treatment(no healing or Magicka Regen while cloaked). There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently. Add snare immunity to base ability to compensate.

Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.

So that’s what the class discords are for. Discussing ways to nerf other classes abilities.

Well, yes, why would a Nightblade on the Nightblade discord ask for Nightblade nerfs? That’s illogical. The other 4 classes are the ones to ask for said nerf.

For example, PvE wise, on the Templar discord we believe one of the best course of actions to balance is to remove Minor Berserk from all classes, as such Nightblade and Warden won’t outshine the other classes in content where Combat Prayer uptime isn’t there.

Tholian1

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course)...

Some changes proposed on the Templar discord:

Cloak is given the mist form treatment(no healing or Magicka Regen while cloaked). There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently. Add snare immunity to base ability to compensate.

Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.

So that’s what the class discords are for. Discussing ways to nerf other classes abilities.

Well, yes, why would a Nightblade on the Nightblade discord ask for Nightblade nerfs? That’s illogical. The other 4 classes are the ones to ask for said nerf.

Silly for me to think that the discords would be used to discuss how to make their own classes better instead of how to make other classes worse.

templesus

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course)...

Some changes proposed on the Templar discord:

Cloak is given the mist form treatment(no healing or Magicka Regen while cloaked). There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently. Add snare immunity to base ability to compensate.

Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.

So that’s what the class discords are for. Discussing ways to nerf other classes abilities.

Well, yes, why would a Nightblade on the Nightblade discord ask for Nightblade nerfs? That’s illogical. The other 4 classes are the ones to ask for said nerf.

Silly for me to think that the discords would be used to discuss how to make their own classes better instead of how to make other classes worse.

Unfortunately that doesn’t work in this game. ZOS has tried that route and Nightblade is still the best PvE DPS in the game. The best course of action is Nerfs.

Tholian1

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course)...

Some changes proposed on the Templar discord:

Cloak is given the mist form treatment(no healing or Magicka Regen while cloaked). There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently. Add snare immunity to base ability to compensate.

Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.

So that’s what the class discords are for. Discussing ways to nerf other classes abilities.

Well, yes, why would a Nightblade on the Nightblade discord ask for Nightblade nerfs? That’s illogical. The other 4 classes are the ones to ask for said nerf.

Silly for me to think that the discords would be used to discuss how to make their own classes better instead of how to make other classes worse.

Unfortunately that doesn’t work in this game. ZOS has tried that route and Nightblade is still the best PvE DPS in the game. The best course of action is Nerfs.

Umm. Destroying cloak and nerfing snipe isn’t going to change the PvE performance of NBs.

And it is really shady for certain classes trying to exert influence over how other classes perform.

templesus

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course)...

Some changes proposed on the Templar discord:

Cloak is given the mist form treatment(no healing or Magicka Regen while cloaked). There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently. Add snare immunity to base ability to compensate.

Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.

So that’s what the class discords are for. Discussing ways to nerf other classes abilities.

Well, yes, why would a Nightblade on the Nightblade discord ask for Nightblade nerfs? That’s illogical. The other 4 classes are the ones to ask for said nerf.

Silly for me to think that the discords would be used to discuss how to make their own classes better instead of how to make other classes worse.

Unfortunately that doesn’t work in this game. ZOS has tried that route and Nightblade is still the best PvE DPS in the game. The best course of action is Nerfs.

Umm. Destroying cloak and nerfing snipe isn’t going to change the PvE performance of NBs.

And it is really shady for certain classes trying to exert influence over how other classes perform.

Those were just examples. Apparently you missed the solutions I Edited in earlier regarding PvE. It isn't shady at all, pain points are given to the class reps, these are some major pain points. If you have a problem with it, then join the class rep discords and voice your concerns. Bashing it on the forums will get you nowhere.

Tholian1

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course)...

Some changes proposed on the Templar discord:

Cloak is given the mist form treatment(no healing or Magicka Regen while cloaked). There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently. Add snare immunity to base ability to compensate.

Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.

So that’s what the class discords are for. Discussing ways to nerf other classes abilities.

Well, yes, why would a Nightblade on the Nightblade discord ask for Nightblade nerfs? That’s illogical. The other 4 classes are the ones to ask for said nerf.

Silly for me to think that the discords would be used to discuss how to make their own classes better instead of how to make other classes worse.

Unfortunately that doesn’t work in this game. ZOS has tried that route and Nightblade is still the best PvE DPS in the game. The best course of action is Nerfs.

Umm. Destroying cloak and nerfing snipe isn’t going to change the PvE performance of NBs.

And it is really shady for certain classes trying to exert influence over how other classes perform.

Those were just examples. Apparently you missed the solutions I Edited in earlier regarding PvE. It isn't shady at all, pain points are given to the class reps, these are some major pain points. If you have a problem with it, then join the class rep discords and voice your concerns. Bashing it on the forums will get you nowhere.

The pain points should be the problems with your own class skills when competing with other classes skills. Incredibly shady for Templar, Dk, Sorc mains to influence what skill options a NB should or shouldn’t have.

templesus

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

On the Class discords (bar Nightblades of course)...

Some changes proposed on the Templar discord:

Cloak is given the mist form treatment(no healing or Magicka Regen while cloaked). There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently. Add snare immunity to base ability to compensate.

Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.

So that’s what the class discords are for. Discussing ways to nerf other classes abilities.

Well, yes, why would a Nightblade on the Nightblade discord ask for Nightblade nerfs? That’s illogical. The other 4 classes are the ones to ask for said nerf.

Silly for me to think that the discords would be used to discuss how to make their own classes better instead of how to make other classes worse.

Unfortunately that doesn’t work in this game. ZOS has tried that route and Nightblade is still the best PvE DPS in the game. The best course of action is Nerfs.

Umm. Destroying cloak and nerfing snipe isn’t going to change the PvE performance of NBs.

And it is really shady for certain classes trying to exert influence over how other classes perform.

Those were just examples. Apparently you missed the solutions I Edited in earlier regarding PvE. It isn't shady at all, pain points are given to the class reps, these are some major pain points. If you have a problem with it, then join the class rep discords and voice your concerns. Bashing it on the forums will get you nowhere.

The pain points should be the problems with your own class skills when competing with other classes skills. Incredibly shady for Templar, Dk, Sorc mains to influence what skill options a NB should or shouldn’t have.

You're fully entitled to your opinion. The majority of people on the discords don't see it that way. However this has nothing to do with the topic at and as such is derailing the thread. So as such I will no longer be discussing this.

Kuramas9tails

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Cloak is only overpowered when combined with the right ranged attacks. Cloak on a melee fighter is actually a much weaker defense than shields, wings, or block heals.

You need a brain and any one ae to completely counter a melee stamblade using cloak. Even if you don’t have an ae, or one of the other half dozen anti-stealth mechanics, you just need a little timing to kill a melee stealth blade.

Snipe + stealth is broken, but it’s more because of snipe than stealth.

Please say this louder for all the players who don't play NB's but complain about them