Snipe, Earthgore, TimeStop and Cloak all need nerfs.

Haashhtaag

Nebthet78 wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

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Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^

I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.

It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.

If endgame elites feel like a set is a carry. They have the choice not to use it. Simple.

I run trials that aren’t made up of elite players, and we still wipe. Endgame players that can beat content naked and with their eyes closed, shouldn’t even be giving their opinions on the game difficulty for less skilled players. Just my opinion.

I mean this can go two ways. Why should inexperienced players have an opinion on which sets are carries and which sets aren't? The answer is pretty simple, we're all players playing the same game and we're entitled to our opinion.

If you're crutching on a set to beat content, it's a crutch. All of these "elitists" you are talking about had to work to beat the content also, removing easy buttons makes the accomplishment more fun. In my opinion of course.

Content should not be being balanced to suit those end game elitists who can blow through all content, nor should it be balanced to suit the casuals who can only get 5k dps.

The game should be balanced by those in the middle, who work their ass off to do these dungeons much, much more, than a group or 2 of 60k dps players who get together and play in elite guilds like Hodor and Mechanically Challenged. It's nice to have your opinion, but to balance the game around these sort of players is highly detrimental to the game overall.

Just because the elite 1% can blow through this type of content and not bat an eye at it and feels like using certain sets is a carry, doesn't mean the other 30% or so don't need Earthgore to help them out.

This game, and especially end game isn't just for the Elite 1%. It's for everyone!!! ZOS will be making the biggest mistake ever, the day they start cattering and balancing this game around the Elite 1% only.

Earthgore has a long cool down. 35seconds.. A lot can happen in a trial in that time.

The game should be balanced around end game crowd. It should not be balanced around new players and less experienced players.

New and less experienced players should work to achieve the best of their abilities. Not everything should be handed to them or made easy.

FrankonPC

First of all, you're narrowing the top group of people that don't need earthgore at a much lower percentage than it actually is and then straw-manning your argument off of that.

In another post, as an example, I was told that earthgore comes in really handy when you are running vet maw, but when I was running vet maw over a year ago with my core group I didn't even need to slot a heal because the healers we had were so good(and they weren't running earthgore). I would hardly classify the group I was running with as a top 1%.

Now with better healing sets, more damage, higher cp etc

Skins and titles shouldn't be given out on a bell curve for the top x%, nor should the game create sets that do the work for you, like earthgore.

templesus

Nebthet78 wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

.

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^

I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.

It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.

If endgame elites feel like a set is a carry. They have the choice not to use it. Simple.

I run trials that aren’t made up of elite players, and we still wipe. Endgame players that can beat content naked and with their eyes closed, shouldn’t even be giving their opinions on the game difficulty for less skilled players. Just my opinion.

I mean this can go two ways. Why should inexperienced players have an opinion on which sets are carries and which sets aren't? The answer is pretty simple, we're all players playing the same game and we're entitled to our opinion.

If you're crutching on a set to beat content, it's a crutch. All of these "elitists" you are talking about had to work to beat the content also, removing easy buttons makes the accomplishment more fun. In my opinion of course.

Content should not be being balanced to suit those end game elitists who can blow through all content, nor should it be balanced to suit the casuals who can only get 5k dps.

The game should be balanced by those in the middle, who work their ass off to do these dungeons much, much more, than a group or 2 of 60k dps players who get together and play in elite guilds like Hodor and Mechanically Challenged. It's nice to have your opinion, but to balance the game around these sort of players is highly detrimental to the game overall.

Just because the elite 1% can blow through this type of content and not bat an eye at it and feels like using certain sets is a carry, doesn't mean the other 30% or so don't need Earthgore to help them out.

This game, and especially end game isn't just for the Elite 1%. It's for everyone!!! ZOS will be making the biggest mistake ever, the day they start cattering and balancing this game around the Elite 1% only.

Earthgore has a long cool down. 35seconds.. A lot can happen in a trial in that time.

Only difference between the “Elite” and “Non-Elite” is time and effort. If you can’t pull the same DPS as someone using the exact same gear and skills as you, that’s on you.

Making the excuse “it’s because they’re elite” is entitled nonsense and a complete False Cause fallacy. Has no place on the forums.

robpr

My only issue with cloak is that it suspends DoTs from ticking. Also 'Slot any AoE' won't work because the moment you cast AoE NB just dodge away and cloaks again.
It need Mist treatment, really. Damage reduction, snare removal, but not completely negate the dots. Recasting is fine imo

Either fix the desyncs or move Snipe to ult. Change Defile to Maim, or even Cowardice for fun, lul.

OtarTheMad

I don’t see the issue with cloak, so many things break it but maybe people in the game do not know these things anymore.

As for only bad magblades using cloak, well I use it but usually only use it in a fight to reset if I am trying to 1v1 someone and friends show up or as a dodge roll like counter to a burst attack from a player. Good PvPers or just players who play in it a lot usually counter it. I don’t spam it because I need my magicka for other fights so it’s strictly defensive, like biting off more than I can chew. That’s just me though and my opinion. Spam it, don’t slot it, use it as a defensive tactic. It’s a play style, whatever.

Don’t know how to counter? That’s perfectly fine use: caltrops, flare (that PvP ability), steel tornado, wall of elements, pulsar, magelight, detect pots. Also class abilities work: streak is one I use. I won’t get into all class abilities but I am sure some of you can post some. Maybe there needs to be more How To’s available for new pvpers, idk. I was lucky where I started pvping when EVERYONE was new so info was shared.

Earthgore is powerful, no doubt, but it has a cooldown. So that’s the key counter right there really. Just my opinion and yes I do have it on a Templar I sometimes run in PvP but for all the times it might save me from dying, there is plenty of times where it is on cool down and it doesn’t. If they toned it down a little (bigger cooldown, like 45 seconds) that’d be fine but I’d hate for it to lose its uniqueness. ZOS tends to go overboard on nerfs.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

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Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^

I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.

It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.

If endgame elites feel like a set is a carry. They have the choice not to use it. Simple.

I run trials that aren’t made up of elite players, and we still wipe. Endgame players that can beat content naked and with their eyes closed, shouldn’t even be giving their opinions on the game difficulty for less skilled players. Just my opinion.

I mean this can go two ways. Why should inexperienced players have an opinion on which sets are carries and which sets aren't? The answer is pretty simple, we're all players playing the same game and we're entitled to our opinion.

If you're crutching on a set to beat content, it's a crutch. All of these "elitists" you are talking about had to work to beat the content also, removing easy buttons makes the accomplishment more fun. In my opinion of course.

Content should not be being balanced to suit those end game elitists who can blow through all content, nor should it be balanced to suit the casuals who can only get 5k dps.

The game should be balanced by those in the middle, who work their ass off to do these dungeons much, much more, than a group or 2 of 60k dps players who get together and play in elite guilds like Hodor and Mechanically Challenged. It's nice to have your opinion, but to balance the game around these sort of players is highly detrimental to the game overall.

Just because the elite 1% can blow through this type of content and not bat an eye at it and feels like using certain sets is a carry, doesn't mean the other 30% or so don't need Earthgore to help them out.

This game, and especially end game isn't just for the Elite 1%. It's for everyone!!! ZOS will be making the biggest mistake ever, the day they start cattering and balancing this game around the Elite 1% only.

Earthgore has a long cool down. 35seconds.. A lot can happen in a trial in that time.

The game should be balanced around end game crowd. It should not be balanced around new players and less experienced players.

New and less experienced players should work to achieve the best of their abilities. Not everything should be handed to them or made easy.

So basically make an ELDER SCROLLS title WildStar 2.0? And look what happened to WildStar when it was catering to the small percentage of hardcore end gamers

LiquidPony

templesus wrote: »

Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^

I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.

It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.

Earthgore isn't unique in this regard. There are lots of sets that can be worn, or skills that can be run, that aren't ideal for optimizing DPS or speed but help groups progress.

You see lots of people progressing vAS with DPS in Iceheart when they could be doing more damage with another set, healers wearing Plague Doctor or the like when they could be boosting group DPS with another set. Progression groups will drop Novas and Veil of Blades and Barriers in tough spots rather than going full-bore DPS, magblades may switch morphs or use a different spammable to provide some healing utility, sorcs may run crit surge/power surge, stam DPS may slot vigor.

I'm not sure why that's a problem. Earthgore seems fairly well-balanced in PvE. For groups that "need" it, it might help them get a clear. For groups that don't, they're often better off running something else that'll help them get faster times, higher DPS, and better scores.

OtarTheMad

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

.

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^

I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.

It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.

If endgame elites feel like a set is a carry. They have the choice not to use it. Simple.

I run trials that aren’t made up of elite players, and we still wipe. Endgame players that can beat content naked and with their eyes closed, shouldn’t even be giving their opinions on the game difficulty for less skilled players. Just my opinion.

I mean this can go two ways. Why should inexperienced players have an opinion on which sets are carries and which sets aren't? The answer is pretty simple, we're all players playing the same game and we're entitled to our opinion.

If you're crutching on a set to beat content, it's a crutch. All of these "elitists" you are talking about had to work to beat the content also, removing easy buttons makes the accomplishment more fun. In my opinion of course.

Content should not be being balanced to suit those end game elitists who can blow through all content, nor should it be balanced to suit the casuals who can only get 5k dps.

The game should be balanced by those in the middle, who work their ass off to do these dungeons much, much more, than a group or 2 of 60k dps players who get together and play in elite guilds like Hodor and Mechanically Challenged. It's nice to have your opinion, but to balance the game around these sort of players is highly detrimental to the game overall.

Just because the elite 1% can blow through this type of content and not bat an eye at it and feels like using certain sets is a carry, doesn't mean the other 30% or so don't need Earthgore to help them out.

This game, and especially end game isn't just for the Elite 1%. It's for everyone!!! ZOS will be making the biggest mistake ever, the day they start cattering and balancing this game around the Elite 1% only.

Earthgore has a long cool down. 35seconds.. A lot can happen in a trial in that time.

The game should be balanced around end game crowd. It should not be balanced around new players and less experienced players.

New and less experienced players should work to achieve the best of their abilities. Not everything should be handed to them or made easy.

That’s bad for business in my opinion. You have to try to make everyone happy at least a little. End game, casuals, new players etc. they should all be taken into account. Otherwise the game will die like so many others.

Elitist do put more time and effort into the game but outside factors probably help too. Like I’d be a better player if I had the time, effort and brain (I have some issues) to play but I don’t. Like right now I can’t play so whatever DPS I pulled will probably go down when/if I return because I won’t remember the way I did it.

Too much emphasis gets put into who is elitist and who isn’t and each side holding against the other. We are all playing the same game and want the same thing: for it to last a longtime. Just my opinion though, I doubt it will cut down the banter between the two sides.

Dracane

Czekoludek wrote: »

If you cannot break the cloak when opponent is near you and trying to escape, then it is clearly L2P issue. If you want to break cloak, just use AoE, sneak detection skill or potion. Cloak is a defensive skill with so mamy counters, it's funny now that someone have problems with it. But if you constantly died because of it and don't want to slot a counter skill cuz "it is a waste of place on skillbar", then I have a bad news for you. Nerfing cloak even more will not make you great in pvp, only experience and commitment can do that

I consider myself quite capable at revealing Nightblades and predicting their movement by now. I use wall of elements, streak and detection potions.
However the amount of ressources and dedication required in order to prevent a Nightblade from cloaking away, far exceeds the amount of effort needed by the cloaker.

It is not only cloak itself, but the fact you can exploit Shade in order to teleport through walls and roofs. Cloak would be less overperforming if the team would revisit their first step where they disabled shade to be used on keep walls. Shadeporting through walls and objects is why I feel like Nightblade is the best open world pvp class. You can not be catched with a proper build and shade spam.

I often tell my friend "How are normal people supposed to catch Nightblades like that, when even keen players need to work hard ?" If cloak remains untouched, then at least shading through walls and objects should be further disabled. The first step was already done.

technohic

Dracane wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

If you cannot break the cloak when opponent is near you and trying to escape, then it is clearly L2P issue. If you want to break cloak, just use AoE, sneak detection skill or potion. Cloak is a defensive skill with so mamy counters, it's funny now that someone have problems with it. But if you constantly died because of it and don't want to slot a counter skill cuz "it is a waste of place on skillbar", then I have a bad news for you. Nerfing cloak even more will not make you great in pvp, only experience and commitment can do that

I consider myself quite capable at revealing Nightblades and predicting their movement by now. I use wall of elements, streak and detection potions.
However the amount of ressources and dedication required in order to prevent a Nightblade from cloaking away, far exceeds the amount of effort needed by the cloaker.

It is not only cloak itself, but the fact you can exploit Shade in order to teleport through walls and roofs. Cloak would be less overperforming if the team would revisit their first step where they disabled shade to be used on keep walls. Shadeporting through walls and objects is why I feel like Nightblade is the best open world pvp class. You can not be catched with a proper build and shade spam.

I often tell my friend "How are normal people supposed to catch Nightblades like that, when even keen players need to work hard ?" If cloak remains untouched, then at least shading through walls and objects should be further disabled. The first step was already done.

You catch them by their hubris; really.

Gilvoth

MajBludd wrote: »

When cloak had the purge that was too much and I played a nb.

So many things pull a nb out of cloak, why does it need a nerf?

exactly

Gilvoth

coj901 wrote: »

I got annoyed by cloak so I made a stamblade and didn't like it. I tried magblade also I found it to be awfut. I did learn how to counter them 90% of the time. Maybe you should try that.

well said

kypranb14_ESO

templesus wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Some changes proposed new on discord:

Cloak is given the mist form treatment. There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently.

Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.

Timestop heal negation and snare removed but the animation is sped up to compensate and the CC breaking of it needs to be fixed.

Earthgore reworked as an AOE remove all negative effects when you heal an ally below 50%, healing component completely removed.

Just as long as it removes snares and CCs like Mist Form too.

Yes it would function the exact same, but added benefit to remove snares and now you would not heal nor get magic regen inside of cloak. I’m not sure what you mean by remove CCs, as you can’t use mist form while you’re CCed and cloak already makes you immune to CCs.

Cloak does not make you immune to CCs, that is FAKE NEWS, Donald Trump said so, so it must be true.

Toc de Malsvi

Dracane wrote: »

Czekoludek wrote: »

If you cannot break the cloak when opponent is near you and trying to escape, then it is clearly L2P issue. If you want to break cloak, just use AoE, sneak detection skill or potion. Cloak is a defensive skill with so mamy counters, it's funny now that someone have problems with it. But if you constantly died because of it and don't want to slot a counter skill cuz "it is a waste of place on skillbar", then I have a bad news for you. Nerfing cloak even more will not make you great in pvp, only experience and commitment can do that

I consider myself quite capable at revealing Nightblades and predicting their movement by now. I use wall of elements, streak and detection potions.
However the amount of ressources and dedication required in order to prevent a Nightblade from cloaking away, far exceeds the amount of effort needed by the cloaker.

It is not only cloak itself, but the fact you can exploit Shade in order to teleport through walls and roofs. Cloak would be less overperforming if the team would revisit their first step where they disabled shade to be used on keep walls. Shadeporting through walls and objects is why I feel like Nightblade is the best open world pvp class. You can not be catched with a proper build and shade spam.

I often tell my friend "How are normal people supposed to catch Nightblades like that, when even keen players need to work hard ?" If cloak remains untouched, then at least shading through walls and objects should be further disabled. The first step was already done.

I don't agree with you a lot, but yeah shade changes made NB ridiculous in all PVP content. Not unbeatable but incomparably mobile and neigh impossible to track down if played well.

IAVITNI

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

Do you realise that cloak is the defining ability of the nightblade, especially the magicka nightblade?

You keep asking to nerf the cloak to what end? Have you tried playing a magNB and found out that it is way to easy thanks to the cloak? What are your defences in BG as a magNB? You are a mage that can sneak, that's all, but a poor mage, because you lack any burst damage. I main a mnb and cloak does not save me that often, because it is so easy to counter!!! So I can't even imagine what will be fair play to you while fighting a STEALTHY class, the nightblade. Stealth and cloak is the reason I picked this class from the very begining, and at that time I did not had pvp in mind at all... just that cloak is a fun ability a trademark of the nightblade, a rogue/thief class in RPGs. So even if you keep spaming it, there are so many aoe's and dots that get you out of it, you can really use it effectively for a split second, then you really need act - either flee, or reengage in a new attack. But the problem is, once your enemies know you are around and using cloak, they activate their defences, pots, aoe spams, and act weary, so the cloak is not going to work for long.

The whole skill tree of the mnb is imagined to put pressure on the target with snares and dots, but you do not have a burst attack like the stamblade has with snipe, you have to build it up hoping that by the time you get the bow proc your target is still in range or has not destroyed you. I am really wondering if you know what you are talking about, when you discuss cloak nerfs.

So yea, snipe is bad because it is cheap, you do not need much skill to find a sweet spot and keep ganking people. But you can't also just nerf it to the ground, making snipe hit like a wet noodle. Snipers are usually easy to destroy if you get close to them because they fear melee combat, and are not prepaired for it. So each thing has a counter, and the nice thing about PvP is working to find out these counters, finding what works for you and getting better at it. Asking for nerfs on forums is not one of those counters.

Majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak. And no, you don't need it for open world.

Have you tried playing magblade without it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuzJ2N2yg8w

Try pulling that off by spamming Cloak as a magblade lol. You won't.

You want to say stamblade needs cloak spam?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt0qj6YzH9A&t=175s

Yes, he has cloak on his bar but look at how many times he actually uses it. If Cloak increased in cost by 500% for 10 seconds after use, this guy wouldn't even be affected by it. Why? Because he's a good stamblade that knows how to play.

And for a direct comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQcY4GPJU6s&t=1m36s

I'm not even a good stamblade. If you look at the last fight you can see how I literally don't cloak once in the 1v1 and get an easy dub.

Every single night blade that says Cloak is weak is bad.

Cloak is a crutch for bad players. People think that you need Cloak to play a stamblade. You don't. You need skill to play it, arguably less than other classes in the current meta, but flat out removing Cloak wouldn't even destroy the class. It would make it significantly weaker, but the first 2 videos prove you don't need it, and you especially don't need to spam it. The last clip shows the kind of players that crutch on Cloak spam. All you're doing is setting a glass ceiling for yourself by relying on Cloak.

If you don't think Cloak can't be nerfed because it would destroy nightblades...well you're just bad.

So now I am a bad player because I slot cloak? Or because some other players prefer not to use it, is it bad, and since it is bad, should it also become worse, with a nerf? What is the logic? BTW... I am not interested in stamblades, they have access to FM and other tools, I play a magicka nightblade. Also Cyrodiil pvp is different than noncp BG pvp.

This is one of the problems here... many people talk about a very specific situation and playstyle, which they try to overlap to the whole game, including pve, instead of mentioning something like: IN Cp AvA PvP, in 1vX or zerg vs zerg, there is this problem with _insert skill_. My proposal is this, I did a test with this build and came up with these conclusions.... Most people just vent their anger after losing some games or skirmishes.

Also you are referring to your playstyle and preference, which is not optimal or fun for everyone. Same with the OP... don't tell me the skills I use are bad or have to be nerfed, or if you do, come with some constructive feedback which is not going to antagonise players. Saying the ping is low is not really a balance issue.

Again.. stop telling people how to play the game and their chars. (you are telling me that I do not need cloak for the open world, which is clearly a matter of choice, since the open world is the main casual play area of the game).

Your arguments would be valid if the cloak ability would have almost no counter and would create a huge advantage to its user. But it is hardly the case... it is more an annoyance to the one fighting a magblade, and as people know, it has many counters which are not class restricted, this being the reason behind "majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak", as you say. So then, why nerf it or change it? You say it is a crutch for bad players, which I doubt, since it does not make you hard to kill like pre-murkmire shields made you, especially sorc shield. It is convenient to vanish and makes some things easier, same like the sorc's teleport, but does not give you the edge in pvp.

To answer to your question, for pve, I do not slot cloak, but in open world I use it often to skip mobs while questing or travelling. In PvP (I mostly do non cp BGs), I have it slotted, but I do not use it much, because the action is more intense than in zerg pvp where you get heals and buffs for lots of people. As I said.. cloaking does not save you if decent pvp-ers notice you are around. Yes, in Cyro you might find a spot to hide, but in BGs, there is hardly the case or reason to hide, so it really depends so much on the context we are talking.

Don't. Don't argue with magsorc players in this forum. It's pointless.

Uhm ok. First off, my post was made in response to someone who claimed that magblade cannot play without Cloak. @kind_hero you ridicule me for talking out of context but you take my response completely out of its context.

I never directly stated to remove Cloak, nor have I ever done so. My closing argument was that IF Cloak was removed, the night blade class wouldn't even be the worst, simply to prove the point that nightblades do not NEED Cloak as stated by the person I responded too since, like you said it is more of a playstyle choice, but one that the majority posit as the only way for the class to be competitive.

I will say that Cloak needs to be nerfed but Nightblade, especially magblade needs to be buffed defensively. I can go into an objective discussion regarding it but unless you prove that you yourself consider context (based on your previous reply, you do not) than I'm not going to go further.

@Ragnaroek93 My point was that Cloak spam is a crutch, the same way that Shield Stacking is a crutch. Shields got "nerfed" and I actually supported the sentiment, even if it came out to be a net buff. In fact, I'd go so far as to remove shield stacking so long as pets are made reliable (this does not mean buff pets) and Sorc mobility is made less clunky.

I showed proof that a good night blade does not need Cloak spam to perform well in PvP solo. This translates to Cloak being completely unnecessary for group play. What was your point? What did you prove?

kind_hero

IAVITNI wrote: »

Uhm ok. First off, my post was made in response to someone who claimed that magblade cannot play without Cloak. @kind_hero you ridicule me for talking out of context but you take my response completely out of its context.

I never directly stated to remove Cloak, nor have I ever done so. My closing argument was that IF Cloak was removed, the night blade class wouldn't even be the worst, simply to prove the point that nightblades do not NEED Cloak as stated by the person I responded too since, like you said it is more of a playstyle choice, but one that the majority posit as the only way for the class to be competitive.

I will say that Cloak needs to be nerfed but Nightblade, especially magblade needs to be buffed defensively. I can go into an objective discussion regarding it but unless you prove that you yourself consider context (based on your previous reply, you do not) than I'm not going to go further.

@Ragnaroek93 My point was that Cloak spam is a crutch, the same way that Shield Stacking is a crutch. Shields got "nerfed" and I actually supported the sentiment, even if it came out to be a net buff. In fact, I'd go so far as to remove shield stacking so long as pets are made reliable (this does not mean buff pets) and Sorc mobility is made less clunky.

I showed proof that a good night blade does not need Cloak spam to perform well in PvP solo. This translates to Cloak being completely unnecessary for group play. What was your point? What did you prove?

OK.. I also replied to more coments than just yours, so sorry for taking out of context in regards to your opinion.

I have said more than enough in this thread (btw, in regards to the remark about the futility of arguing with mag sorcs on the forum, I main a magblade and have magsorc as an active alt ) so what I want to conclude is that adjustments might be needed or whatever, but I really dislike when people are calling for nerfs in regards to class identity abilities which will make all classes look the same.

ESO is based on a role playing game, that's why we pick classes when we start the game. Nightblade is a class that can sneak and vanish to attack from the shadows (ok, all classes can sneak, but you get my point). Sorceror is a class that can call lighning and teleport, DK can transform into a "dragon", and so on. These differences should not be blurred just for pvp sake. Sure, the game lets you play outside of these archetypes, but I am sure everyone who has a nightblade, slots cloak when doing Thieves Guild/DB missions

ZarkingFrued

kind_hero wrote: »

Nerf cloak? This again? When it can be countered with mage guild skill, potions or debuffs? After all the other nerfs to the nightblade (magicka)?

You shouldn't have to give up a skill slot or more effective potion to deal with one specific class skill. Just delete it from the game, the good blades dont need cloak anyhow.

templesus

kind_hero wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Uhm ok. First off, my post was made in response to someone who claimed that magblade cannot play without Cloak. @kind_hero you ridicule me for talking out of context but you take my response completely out of its context.

I never directly stated to remove Cloak, nor have I ever done so. My closing argument was that IF Cloak was removed, the night blade class wouldn't even be the worst, simply to prove the point that nightblades do not NEED Cloak as stated by the person I responded too since, like you said it is more of a playstyle choice, but one that the majority posit as the only way for the class to be competitive.

I will say that Cloak needs to be nerfed but Nightblade, especially magblade needs to be buffed defensively. I can go into an objective discussion regarding it but unless you prove that you yourself consider context (based on your previous reply, you do not) than I'm not going to go further.

@Ragnaroek93 My point was that Cloak spam is a crutch, the same way that Shield Stacking is a crutch. Shields got "nerfed" and I actually supported the sentiment, even if it came out to be a net buff. In fact, I'd go so far as to remove shield stacking so long as pets are made reliable (this does not mean buff pets) and Sorc mobility is made less clunky.

I showed proof that a good night blade does not need Cloak spam to perform well in PvP solo. This translates to Cloak being completely unnecessary for group play. What was your point? What did you prove?

OK.. I also replied to more coments than just yours, so sorry for taking out of context in regards to your opinion.

I have said more than enough in this thread (btw, in regards to the remark about the futility of arguing with mag sorcs on the forum, I main a magblade and have magsorc as an active alt ) so what I want to conclude is that adjustments might be needed or whatever, but I really dislike when people are calling for nerfs in regards to class identity abilities which will make all classes look the same.

ESO is based on a role playing game, that's why we pick classes when we start the game. Nightblade is a class that can sneak and vanish to attack from the shadows (ok, all classes can sneak, but you get my point). Sorceror is a class that can call lighning and teleport, DK can transform into a "dragon", and so on. These differences should not be blurred just for pvp sake. Sure, the game lets you play outside of these archetypes, but I am sure everyone who has a nightblade, slots cloak when doing Thieves Guild/DB missions

Nobody is saying you shouldn’t be able to cloak at all. I’m saying that Cloak needs the mist form treatment because there is absolutely no reason that cloak should function differently then mistform. If you want to cloak, fine, but you shouldn’t regen magicka and sure as hell shouldn’t heal while you’re cloaked.

Koensol

Tasear wrote: »

Cause it kills you?

Cause it stops you from killing.

Sounds like you guys just don't like counters.

This logic is so simplistic it hurts my brain. Obviously I don't have to explain to you that some things are overly effective at doing one of the two?

kind_hero

templesus wrote: »

Nobody is saying you shouldn’t be able to cloak at all. I’m saying that Cloak needs the mist form treatment because there is absolutely no reason that cloak should function differently then mistform. If you want to cloak, fine, but you shouldn’t regen magicka and sure as hell shouldn’t heal while you’re cloaked.

Why there is "absolutely no reason that cloak should function differently then mistform"?

So the cloak skill says: Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 2.5 seconds
+ you get a crit in a window of 3 seconds after exiting cloak

while the mist skill is:
Dissolve into a dark mist, reducing your damage taken by 75% for 3-4 seconds.
Entering this form removes and grants immunity to all disabling and immobilization effects, but you cannot be healed and your Magicka Recovery is disabled.
+ the option to chose between major expedition or aoe damage to nearby enemies

The "mist treatment" would mean to buff cloak, so besides invisibility (unless you want to remove that) we would gain snare removal and immunity plus a dmg or speed buff at the cost of not regenerating stats. This would mean a consistent buff, and make pursuing vampire less interesting for nightblade chars.

But what you are missing here is the word invisible. Invisible means you cannot be seen, not you become a mist or immune to damage or debuffs. And becoming invisible is one of the identity abilities of the nightblade (might be useful or not in pvp or raids, that's a different story). You really need to see the larger picture when calling for such changes. It is not like changing the duration of a bleed debuff.. it is a trademark skill.

I guess you really hate nightblades in pvp, you had some bad experiences against them, and haven't found a good counter against them, because many players stated in this thread how cloak is not a big issue, and furthermore some even said how magicka nightblades feel weaker in pvp right now, which is something I can relate to.

Regarding your call to nerf snipe, I could support that because it really annoys me. But here is the thing. That's not enough for me to ask for a nerf. Maybe a consecutive snipe should do far less damage, that is one idea. But I don't really know what the consequences of that would be for the rest of the game, like pve, general play, etc. We may be fixing a small issue in pvp, but at the same time, destroying the skill for the rest of the game.

Torbschka

Zelos wrote: »

Here we go with the nightblade nerfs... I dont even use cloak I use the heal version because the invisibility is so unreliable. When its good its great and when it doesnt work, its a waste of 4k magicka, a GCD, and a slot on my bar. I think they should remove the 100% crit chance on cloak and put something else there. Other then that detect pots, all AoE, Mark, flare, mage light, expert hunter, etc. etc. all counter it too if it wasn't enough when there is a counter to cloak in the form of a potion skills and all AoE it does not need the streak treatment at all. Otherwise I want a poison that stops a enemy from streaking for 12 seconds or a potion that allows my projectiles to hit through wings. Everyone is like oh bosmer cloaking after dodging will be op and turbo away but wait... this is eso I'm snared for 60% so even after dodge roll and cloak I will be... close to normal speed

IT actually wonders me that nobody complain about WE.

Its the same with Swift, I stated it very early that this will become op on live, yet nobody cared. If this goes live, I will run a WE on every stam class (stam sorc main). The other passives are not bad either lol.

FrankonPC

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Content should not be being balanced to suit those end game elitists who can blow through all content, nor should it be balanced to suit the casuals who can only get 5k dps.

The game should be balanced by those in the middle, who work their ass off to do these dungeons much, much more, than a group or 2 of 60k dps players who get together and play in elite guilds like Hodor and Mechanically Challenged. It's nice to have your opinion, but to balance the game around these sort of players is highly detrimental to the game overall.

Just because the elite 1% can blow through this type of content and not bat an eye at it and feels like using certain sets is a carry, doesn't mean the other 30% or so don't need Earthgore to help them out.

This game, and especially end game isn't just for the Elite 1%. It's for everyone!!! ZOS will be making the biggest mistake ever, the day they start cattering and balancing this game around the Elite 1% only.

Earthgore has a long cool down. 35seconds.. A lot can happen in a trial in that time.

To extrapolate off of your specific example. If the game has content that only 1% can beat without a monster set, but if the monster set is equipped another 29% can...that's an imbalance in the game. No 2 piece set should provide that kind of survivability, sustain or damage.

There are of course a lot more people beating the content than 1%, but in the scenario where your example is true then the game needs to work on lessening dungeon mechanics, not including an overpowered 2 piece.

Ragnaroek93

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

Do you realise that cloak is the defining ability of the nightblade, especially the magicka nightblade?

You keep asking to nerf the cloak to what end? Have you tried playing a magNB and found out that it is way to easy thanks to the cloak? What are your defences in BG as a magNB? You are a mage that can sneak, that's all, but a poor mage, because you lack any burst damage. I main a mnb and cloak does not save me that often, because it is so easy to counter!!! So I can't even imagine what will be fair play to you while fighting a STEALTHY class, the nightblade. Stealth and cloak is the reason I picked this class from the very begining, and at that time I did not had pvp in mind at all... just that cloak is a fun ability a trademark of the nightblade, a rogue/thief class in RPGs. So even if you keep spaming it, there are so many aoe's and dots that get you out of it, you can really use it effectively for a split second, then you really need act - either flee, or reengage in a new attack. But the problem is, once your enemies know you are around and using cloak, they activate their defences, pots, aoe spams, and act weary, so the cloak is not going to work for long.

The whole skill tree of the mnb is imagined to put pressure on the target with snares and dots, but you do not have a burst attack like the stamblade has with snipe, you have to build it up hoping that by the time you get the bow proc your target is still in range or has not destroyed you. I am really wondering if you know what you are talking about, when you discuss cloak nerfs.

So yea, snipe is bad because it is cheap, you do not need much skill to find a sweet spot and keep ganking people. But you can't also just nerf it to the ground, making snipe hit like a wet noodle. Snipers are usually easy to destroy if you get close to them because they fear melee combat, and are not prepaired for it. So each thing has a counter, and the nice thing about PvP is working to find out these counters, finding what works for you and getting better at it. Asking for nerfs on forums is not one of those counters.

Majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak. And no, you don't need it for open world.

Have you tried playing magblade without it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuzJ2N2yg8w

Try pulling that off by spamming Cloak as a magblade lol. You won't.

You want to say stamblade needs cloak spam?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt0qj6YzH9A&t=175s

Yes, he has cloak on his bar but look at how many times he actually uses it. If Cloak increased in cost by 500% for 10 seconds after use, this guy wouldn't even be affected by it. Why? Because he's a good stamblade that knows how to play.

And for a direct comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQcY4GPJU6s&t=1m36s

I'm not even a good stamblade. If you look at the last fight you can see how I literally don't cloak once in the 1v1 and get an easy dub.

Every single night blade that says Cloak is weak is bad.

Cloak is a crutch for bad players. People think that you need Cloak to play a stamblade. You don't. You need skill to play it, arguably less than other classes in the current meta, but flat out removing Cloak wouldn't even destroy the class. It would make it significantly weaker, but the first 2 videos prove you don't need it, and you especially don't need to spam it. The last clip shows the kind of players that crutch on Cloak spam. All you're doing is setting a glass ceiling for yourself by relying on Cloak.

If you don't think Cloak can't be nerfed because it would destroy nightblades...well you're just bad.

So now I am a bad player because I slot cloak? Or because some other players prefer not to use it, is it bad, and since it is bad, should it also become worse, with a nerf? What is the logic? BTW... I am not interested in stamblades, they have access to FM and other tools, I play a magicka nightblade. Also Cyrodiil pvp is different than noncp BG pvp.

This is one of the problems here... many people talk about a very specific situation and playstyle, which they try to overlap to the whole game, including pve, instead of mentioning something like: IN Cp AvA PvP, in 1vX or zerg vs zerg, there is this problem with _insert skill_. My proposal is this, I did a test with this build and came up with these conclusions.... Most people just vent their anger after losing some games or skirmishes.

Also you are referring to your playstyle and preference, which is not optimal or fun for everyone. Same with the OP... don't tell me the skills I use are bad or have to be nerfed, or if you do, come with some constructive feedback which is not going to antagonise players. Saying the ping is low is not really a balance issue.

Again.. stop telling people how to play the game and their chars. (you are telling me that I do not need cloak for the open world, which is clearly a matter of choice, since the open world is the main casual play area of the game).

Your arguments would be valid if the cloak ability would have almost no counter and would create a huge advantage to its user. But it is hardly the case... it is more an annoyance to the one fighting a magblade, and as people know, it has many counters which are not class restricted, this being the reason behind "majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak", as you say. So then, why nerf it or change it? You say it is a crutch for bad players, which I doubt, since it does not make you hard to kill like pre-murkmire shields made you, especially sorc shield. It is convenient to vanish and makes some things easier, same like the sorc's teleport, but does not give you the edge in pvp.

To answer to your question, for pve, I do not slot cloak, but in open world I use it often to skip mobs while questing or travelling. In PvP (I mostly do non cp BGs), I have it slotted, but I do not use it much, because the action is more intense than in zerg pvp where you get heals and buffs for lots of people. As I said.. cloaking does not save you if decent pvp-ers notice you are around. Yes, in Cyro you might find a spot to hide, but in BGs, there is hardly the case or reason to hide, so it really depends so much on the context we are talking.

Don't. Don't argue with magsorc players in this forum. It's pointless.

Uhm ok. First off, my post was made in response to someone who claimed that magblade cannot play without Cloak. @kind_hero you ridicule me for talking out of context but you take my response completely out of its context.

I never directly stated to remove Cloak, nor have I ever done so. My closing argument was that IF Cloak was removed, the night blade class wouldn't even be the worst, simply to prove the point that nightblades do not NEED Cloak as stated by the person I responded too since, like you said it is more of a playstyle choice, but one that the majority posit as the only way for the class to be competitive.

I will say that Cloak needs to be nerfed but Nightblade, especially magblade needs to be buffed defensively. I can go into an objective discussion regarding it but unless you prove that you yourself consider context (based on your previous reply, you do not) than I'm not going to go further.

@Ragnaroek93 My point was that Cloak spam is a crutch, the same way that Shield Stacking is a crutch. Shields got "nerfed" and I actually supported the sentiment, even if it came out to be a net buff. In fact, I'd go so far as to remove shield stacking so long as pets are made reliable (this does not mean buff pets) and Sorc mobility is made less clunky.

I showed proof that a good night blade does not need Cloak spam to perform well in PvP solo. This translates to Cloak being completely unnecessary for group play. What was your point? What did you prove?

Smashing some potatoes on console and tbagging them is a good proof

Funny how you don't care about sorc nerfs as long as they don't affect petbuilds. Having empowered Shadowrend as #1 dmg source in PvP and pets who deal more damage than proc sets ever did is fine, using Harness Magicka or a Nb class skill on the other side makes you a bad player.

SirCassiusClay

Why doesn't ZoS do a skill split between PVE and PVP and then balance accordingly? Seems like the obvious solution to me. That way you don't antagonize PVE players with PVP nerfs and vice versa.

GW2 did a skill split a while ago and it was welcomed by the community. ESO would benefit from this as well.

technohic

SirCassiusClay wrote: »

Why doesn't ZoS do a skill split between PVE and PVP and then balance accordingly? Seems like the obvious solution to me. That way you don't antagonize PVE players with PVP nerfs and vice versa.

GW2 did a skill split a while ago and it was welcomed by the community. ESO would benefit from this as well.

ZOS stance has been that they want your character to play the same no matter what content you are in. Yes; completely ignoring the fact that Solo PvE, I am not just doing a raid DPS rotation on mobs that die in a couple hits, and in PvP; I need entirely different gear for impen which does nothing really for PvE, and CP point allocation is way different, and I am not going to be using a lot of ground based AOEs because my targets are not going to stand in them; it is kind of a bad excuse. About the most I see as even possibly being cross different playstyles is I will go practice my PvP burst combos on high HP NPCs.

templesus

kind_hero wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Nobody is saying you shouldn’t be able to cloak at all. I’m saying that Cloak needs the mist form treatment because there is absolutely no reason that cloak should function differently then mistform. If you want to cloak, fine, but you shouldn’t regen magicka and sure as hell shouldn’t heal while you’re cloaked.

Why there is "absolutely no reason that cloak should function differently then mistform"?

So the cloak skill says: Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 2.5 seconds
+ you get a crit in a window of 3 seconds after exiting cloak

while the mist skill is:
Dissolve into a dark mist, reducing your damage taken by 75% for 3-4 seconds.
Entering this form removes and grants immunity to all disabling and immobilization effects, but you cannot be healed and your Magicka Recovery is disabled.
+ the option to chose between major expedition or aoe damage to nearby enemies

The "mist treatment" would mean to buff cloak, so besides invisibility (unless you want to remove that) we would gain snare removal and immunity plus a dmg or speed buff at the cost of not regenerating stats. This would mean a consistent buff, and make pursuing vampire less interesting for nightblade chars.

But what you are missing here is the word invisible. Invisible means you cannot be seen, not you become a mist or immune to damage or debuffs. And becoming invisible is one of the identity abilities of the nightblade (might be useful or not in pvp or raids, that's a different story). You really need to see the larger picture when calling for such changes. It is not like changing the duration of a bleed debuff.. it is a trademark skill.

I guess you really hate nightblades in pvp, you had some bad experiences against them, and haven't found a good counter against them, because many players stated in this thread how cloak is not a big issue, and furthermore some even said how magicka nightblades feel weaker in pvp right now, which is something I can relate to.

Regarding your call to nerf snipe, I could support that because it really annoys me. But here is the thing. That's not enough for me to ask for a nerf. Maybe a consecutive snipe should do far less damage, that is one idea. But I don't really know what the consequences of that would be for the rest of the game, like pve, general play, etc. We may be fixing a small issue in pvp, but at the same time, destroying the skill for the rest of the game.

I never said the abilities should be identical. I said it should get the mist form treatment, which means you don’t regen magicka and you don’t heal. Cloak already has its uniqueness in that it negates all dots, makes any single target ability miss when cast, and makes you invisible. You keep all that, you just can’t regen magicka and heal inside of it.

Starlock

SirCassiusClay wrote: »

Why doesn't ZoS do a skill split between PVE and PVP and then balance accordingly? Seems like the obvious solution to me. That way you don't antagonize PVE players with PVP nerfs and vice versa.

I really wish they would do this. Every time I see requests like this I cringe and fear the developers will listen. Historically they've kept their heads screwed on straight, but there have been more than a few annoying changes that came out of PvP whine land.

SirCassiusClay

technohic wrote: »

ZOS stance has been that they want your character to play the same no matter what content you are in. Yes; completely ignoring the fact that Solo PvE, I am not just doing a raid DPS rotation on mobs that die in a couple hits, and in PvP; I need entirely different gear for impen which does nothing really for PvE, and CP point allocation is way different, and I am not going to be using a lot of ground based AOEs because my targets are not going to stand in them; it is kind of a bad excuse.

The same excuse was made by the GW2 devs but they eventually caved in because they realized that it is necessary for the game. It also prevented a lot of backlash from the community, something that ZoS seems to be enjoying for some bizarre reason.

brandonv516

templesus wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Nobody is saying you shouldn’t be able to cloak at all. I’m saying that Cloak needs the mist form treatment because there is absolutely no reason that cloak should function differently then mistform. If you want to cloak, fine, but you shouldn’t regen magicka and sure as hell shouldn’t heal while you’re cloaked.

Why there is "absolutely no reason that cloak should function differently then mistform"?

So the cloak skill says: Cloak yourself in shadow to become invisible for 2.5 seconds
+ you get a crit in a window of 3 seconds after exiting cloak

while the mist skill is:
Dissolve into a dark mist, reducing your damage taken by 75% for 3-4 seconds.
Entering this form removes and grants immunity to all disabling and immobilization effects, but you cannot be healed and your Magicka Recovery is disabled.
+ the option to chose between major expedition or aoe damage to nearby enemies

The "mist treatment" would mean to buff cloak, so besides invisibility (unless you want to remove that) we would gain snare removal and immunity plus a dmg or speed buff at the cost of not regenerating stats. This would mean a consistent buff, and make pursuing vampire less interesting for nightblade chars.

But what you are missing here is the word invisible. Invisible means you cannot be seen, not you become a mist or immune to damage or debuffs. And becoming invisible is one of the identity abilities of the nightblade (might be useful or not in pvp or raids, that's a different story). You really need to see the larger picture when calling for such changes. It is not like changing the duration of a bleed debuff.. it is a trademark skill.

I guess you really hate nightblades in pvp, you had some bad experiences against them, and haven't found a good counter against them, because many players stated in this thread how cloak is not a big issue, and furthermore some even said how magicka nightblades feel weaker in pvp right now, which is something I can relate to.

Regarding your call to nerf snipe, I could support that because it really annoys me. But here is the thing. That's not enough for me to ask for a nerf. Maybe a consecutive snipe should do far less damage, that is one idea. But I don't really know what the consequences of that would be for the rest of the game, like pve, general play, etc. We may be fixing a small issue in pvp, but at the same time, destroying the skill for the rest of the game.

I never said the abilities should be identical. I said it should get the mist form treatment, which means you don’t regen magicka and you don’t heal. Cloak already has its uniqueness in that it negates all dots, makes any single target ability miss when cast, and makes you invisible. You keep all that, you just can’t regen magicka and heal inside of it.

Really hating this idea more I think about it. Removal of snares and roots would be nice but if it's on both morphs, I just see Shadowy Disguise dying off for builds like mine. Dark Cloak would be the obvious choice for Magblades (aside from ganking and bombing).

Also hurts Magblade more than Stamblade with it not regenerating Magicka. I don't think Magblade needs to hurt anymore next patch, there's enough of that already.

It even opens potential complications if Siphoning Attacks completes when you are in Cloak. What happens with the resource return?

I also really dislike it because Magblade is one of the only classes right now that can still benefit from Healing Ward. Get low on health, cast Healing Ward, Cloak, and hang back a few seconds.

Hearts_Wake

cloak is fine.

Change all the other things.