Snipe, Earthgore, TimeStop and Cloak all need nerfs.

Sy1ph5

Cloak is fine, but like nightblades need to chill with tryna get the last good aoe in the game nerfed. I see you out there in one thread telling everybody to slot aoes and the next thread over trying to get every decent aoe nerfed.

kojou

I disagree with the entire premise that any of the things listed need nerfs.

I have faced all of them in Cyrodiil and none of them feel particularly out of balance to me. Nor did any stop me from being able to kill another player or take an objective.

Nutshotz

Only thing I see In this thread that has any sense of belonging here are time stop and Earth Gore.

Cloak is perfectly fine. Oh a stamblade cloaked away. Cry about it, if cloak gets nerfed again it's not gonna hurt stamblade it's gonna HURT MAGBLADES OVER STAM!
- detect pots
- AoE's
- Magelight

Is it our fault you refuse to run those things? Nope so don't sit here and cry about cloak when it's been hit I'd say the hardest out of all the skills in ESO. (Bring back cloak purge)

Snipe. Only issue I see with snipe is when 3 or more land at once and that's do to lag.
- you hear snipe
- block snipe
- heal thru snipe
- throw a shield up or wings

Now on to the 2 things that do belong in this thread.

Time stop is spammed non stop by anyone and everyone and the that skill bugs out a lot from CC to not being able to see time stop.

-increase the cost to 8k per cast
-move it to rank 5 in psijic skill line
-When time stop end give CC immunity from time stop for xyz seconds. Preventing you from getting time stop spammed.

Those should help eliminate the issues with time stop

Earth Gore

Now I'm gonna speak for pvp and pve hopefully without demolishing this monster set.

- increase the CD from 35 sec to 60 seconds
- decrease the amount of heal obtained from the set by 18%
- if in a group no more than 4 Earth gores in the same grp. ( Not sure how they would implement that)
- Earth gore only procs on you and your grp members. Not anyone outside your grp. (Can't remember if it does proc outside of grp)

I think those would benefit extremely well without damaging the set and hurting pve players who use it.


Now don't say well you must be a bowtard. I'm not. I'm a magblade bomber. I depend on cloak. So that throws out snipe as well.

Happy !

IAVITNI

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

Do you realise that cloak is the defining ability of the nightblade, especially the magicka nightblade?

You keep asking to nerf the cloak to what end? Have you tried playing a magNB and found out that it is way to easy thanks to the cloak? What are your defences in BG as a magNB? You are a mage that can sneak, that's all, but a poor mage, because you lack any burst damage. I main a mnb and cloak does not save me that often, because it is so easy to counter!!! So I can't even imagine what will be fair play to you while fighting a STEALTHY class, the nightblade. Stealth and cloak is the reason I picked this class from the very begining, and at that time I did not had pvp in mind at all... just that cloak is a fun ability a trademark of the nightblade, a rogue/thief class in RPGs. So even if you keep spaming it, there are so many aoe's and dots that get you out of it, you can really use it effectively for a split second, then you really need act - either flee, or reengage in a new attack. But the problem is, once your enemies know you are around and using cloak, they activate their defences, pots, aoe spams, and act weary, so the cloak is not going to work for long.

The whole skill tree of the mnb is imagined to put pressure on the target with snares and dots, but you do not have a burst attack like the stamblade has with snipe, you have to build it up hoping that by the time you get the bow proc your target is still in range or has not destroyed you. I am really wondering if you know what you are talking about, when you discuss cloak nerfs.

So yea, snipe is bad because it is cheap, you do not need much skill to find a sweet spot and keep ganking people. But you can't also just nerf it to the ground, making snipe hit like a wet noodle. Snipers are usually easy to destroy if you get close to them because they fear melee combat, and are not prepaired for it. So each thing has a counter, and the nice thing about PvP is working to find out these counters, finding what works for you and getting better at it. Asking for nerfs on forums is not one of those counters.

Majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak. And no, you don't need it for open world.

Have you tried playing magblade without it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuzJ2N2yg8w

Try pulling that off by spamming Cloak as a magblade lol. You won't.

You want to say stamblade needs cloak spam?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt0qj6YzH9A&t=175s

Yes, he has cloak on his bar but look at how many times he actually uses it. If Cloak increased in cost by 500% for 10 seconds after use, this guy wouldn't even be affected by it. Why? Because he's a good stamblade that knows how to play.

And for a direct comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQcY4GPJU6s&t=1m36s

I'm not even a good stamblade. If you look at the last fight you can see how I literally don't cloak once in the 1v1 and get an easy dub.

Every single night blade that says Cloak is weak is bad.

Cloak is a crutch for bad players. People think that you need Cloak to play a stamblade. You don't. You need skill to play it, arguably less than other classes in the current meta, but flat out removing Cloak wouldn't even destroy the class. It would make it significantly weaker, but the first 2 videos prove you don't need it, and you especially don't need to spam it. The last clip shows the kind of players that crutch on Cloak spam. All you're doing is setting a glass ceiling for yourself by relying on Cloak.

If you don't think Cloak can't be nerfed because it would destroy nightblades...well you're just bad.

So now I am a bad player because I slot cloak? Or because some other players prefer not to use it, is it bad, and since it is bad, should it also become worse, with a nerf? What is the logic? BTW... I am not interested in stamblades, they have access to FM and other tools, I play a magicka nightblade. Also Cyrodiil pvp is different than noncp BG pvp.

This is one of the problems here... many people talk about a very specific situation and playstyle, which they try to overlap to the whole game, including pve, instead of mentioning something like: IN Cp AvA PvP, in 1vX or zerg vs zerg, there is this problem with _insert skill_. My proposal is this, I did a test with this build and came up with these conclusions.... Most people just vent their anger after losing some games or skirmishes.

Also you are referring to your playstyle and preference, which is not optimal or fun for everyone. Same with the OP... don't tell me the skills I use are bad or have to be nerfed, or if you do, come with some constructive feedback which is not going to antagonise players. Saying the ping is low is not really a balance issue.

Again.. stop telling people how to play the game and their chars. (you are telling me that I do not need cloak for the open world, which is clearly a matter of choice, since the open world is the main casual play area of the game).

Your arguments would be valid if the cloak ability would have almost no counter and would create a huge advantage to its user. But it is hardly the case... it is more an annoyance to the one fighting a magblade, and as people know, it has many counters which are not class restricted, this being the reason behind "majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak", as you say. So then, why nerf it or change it? You say it is a crutch for bad players, which I doubt, since it does not make you hard to kill like pre-murkmire shields made you, especially sorc shield. It is convenient to vanish and makes some things easier, same like the sorc's teleport, but does not give you the edge in pvp.

To answer to your question, for pve, I do not slot cloak, but in open world I use it often to skip mobs while questing or travelling. In PvP (I mostly do non cp BGs), I have it slotted, but I do not use it much, because the action is more intense than in zerg pvp where you get heals and buffs for lots of people. As I said.. cloaking does not save you if decent pvp-ers notice you are around. Yes, in Cyro you might find a spot to hide, but in BGs, there is hardly the case or reason to hide, so it really depends so much on the context we are talking.

Don't. Don't argue with magsorc players in this forum. It's pointless.

Uhm ok. First off, my post was made in response to someone who claimed that magblade cannot play without Cloak. @kind_hero you ridicule me for talking out of context but you take my response completely out of its context.

I never directly stated to remove Cloak, nor have I ever done so. My closing argument was that IF Cloak was removed, the night blade class wouldn't even be the worst, simply to prove the point that nightblades do not NEED Cloak as stated by the person I responded too since, like you said it is more of a playstyle choice, but one that the majority posit as the only way for the class to be competitive.

I will say that Cloak needs to be nerfed but Nightblade, especially magblade needs to be buffed defensively. I can go into an objective discussion regarding it but unless you prove that you yourself consider context (based on your previous reply, you do not) than I'm not going to go further.

@Ragnaroek93 My point was that Cloak spam is a crutch, the same way that Shield Stacking is a crutch. Shields got "nerfed" and I actually supported the sentiment, even if it came out to be a net buff. In fact, I'd go so far as to remove shield stacking so long as pets are made reliable (this does not mean buff pets) and Sorc mobility is made less clunky.

I showed proof that a good night blade does not need Cloak spam to perform well in PvP solo. This translates to Cloak being completely unnecessary for group play. What was your point? What did you prove?

Smashing some potatoes on console and tbagging them is a good proof

Funny how you don't care about sorc nerfs as long as they don't affect petbuilds. Having empowered Shadowrend as #1 dmg source in PvP and pets who deal more damage than proc sets ever did is fine, using Harness Magicka or a Nb class skill on the other side makes you a bad player.

It's enough proof that defensively, nightblades do not need Cloak in open world, as solo play is where the damage:mitigation/healing ratio leans most towards damage. In a group, cloak is useless since you have so much allies to LoS and constant heals. In a duel, magblades do not use Cloak, and a stamblade is better off running shadow image for the minor maim. So three areas of PvP: Solo, group and duels: none of which need Cloak to be competitive, in fact, you are better off not using Cloak unless you are a stamblade, and even than you get better results by using it sparingly, not between every light attack.

Please highlight where I said anything that you are referring to. Please point out where I stated any of the claims that you try to attribute to me simply because you have no counter argument to the fact the I provided visual evidence that Cloak is not mandatory.

I even stated that magblades should get a significant defensive buff, and that night blade as a whole needs a defensive buff. Did you read that? Are you against buffing Nightblades?

brandonv516

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

Do you realise that cloak is the defining ability of the nightblade, especially the magicka nightblade?

You keep asking to nerf the cloak to what end? Have you tried playing a magNB and found out that it is way to easy thanks to the cloak? What are your defences in BG as a magNB? You are a mage that can sneak, that's all, but a poor mage, because you lack any burst damage. I main a mnb and cloak does not save me that often, because it is so easy to counter!!! So I can't even imagine what will be fair play to you while fighting a STEALTHY class, the nightblade. Stealth and cloak is the reason I picked this class from the very begining, and at that time I did not had pvp in mind at all... just that cloak is a fun ability a trademark of the nightblade, a rogue/thief class in RPGs. So even if you keep spaming it, there are so many aoe's and dots that get you out of it, you can really use it effectively for a split second, then you really need act - either flee, or reengage in a new attack. But the problem is, once your enemies know you are around and using cloak, they activate their defences, pots, aoe spams, and act weary, so the cloak is not going to work for long.

The whole skill tree of the mnb is imagined to put pressure on the target with snares and dots, but you do not have a burst attack like the stamblade has with snipe, you have to build it up hoping that by the time you get the bow proc your target is still in range or has not destroyed you. I am really wondering if you know what you are talking about, when you discuss cloak nerfs.

So yea, snipe is bad because it is cheap, you do not need much skill to find a sweet spot and keep ganking people. But you can't also just nerf it to the ground, making snipe hit like a wet noodle. Snipers are usually easy to destroy if you get close to them because they fear melee combat, and are not prepaired for it. So each thing has a counter, and the nice thing about PvP is working to find out these counters, finding what works for you and getting better at it. Asking for nerfs on forums is not one of those counters.

Majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak. And no, you don't need it for open world.

Have you tried playing magblade without it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuzJ2N2yg8w

Try pulling that off by spamming Cloak as a magblade lol. You won't.

You want to say stamblade needs cloak spam?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt0qj6YzH9A&t=175s

Yes, he has cloak on his bar but look at how many times he actually uses it. If Cloak increased in cost by 500% for 10 seconds after use, this guy wouldn't even be affected by it. Why? Because he's a good stamblade that knows how to play.

And for a direct comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQcY4GPJU6s&t=1m36s

I'm not even a good stamblade. If you look at the last fight you can see how I literally don't cloak once in the 1v1 and get an easy dub.

Every single night blade that says Cloak is weak is bad.

Cloak is a crutch for bad players. People think that you need Cloak to play a stamblade. You don't. You need skill to play it, arguably less than other classes in the current meta, but flat out removing Cloak wouldn't even destroy the class. It would make it significantly weaker, but the first 2 videos prove you don't need it, and you especially don't need to spam it. The last clip shows the kind of players that crutch on Cloak spam. All you're doing is setting a glass ceiling for yourself by relying on Cloak.

If you don't think Cloak can't be nerfed because it would destroy nightblades...well you're just bad.

So now I am a bad player because I slot cloak? Or because some other players prefer not to use it, is it bad, and since it is bad, should it also become worse, with a nerf? What is the logic? BTW... I am not interested in stamblades, they have access to FM and other tools, I play a magicka nightblade. Also Cyrodiil pvp is different than noncp BG pvp.

This is one of the problems here... many people talk about a very specific situation and playstyle, which they try to overlap to the whole game, including pve, instead of mentioning something like: IN Cp AvA PvP, in 1vX or zerg vs zerg, there is this problem with _insert skill_. My proposal is this, I did a test with this build and came up with these conclusions.... Most people just vent their anger after losing some games or skirmishes.

Also you are referring to your playstyle and preference, which is not optimal or fun for everyone. Same with the OP... don't tell me the skills I use are bad or have to be nerfed, or if you do, come with some constructive feedback which is not going to antagonise players. Saying the ping is low is not really a balance issue.

Again.. stop telling people how to play the game and their chars. (you are telling me that I do not need cloak for the open world, which is clearly a matter of choice, since the open world is the main casual play area of the game).

Your arguments would be valid if the cloak ability would have almost no counter and would create a huge advantage to its user. But it is hardly the case... it is more an annoyance to the one fighting a magblade, and as people know, it has many counters which are not class restricted, this being the reason behind "majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak", as you say. So then, why nerf it or change it? You say it is a crutch for bad players, which I doubt, since it does not make you hard to kill like pre-murkmire shields made you, especially sorc shield. It is convenient to vanish and makes some things easier, same like the sorc's teleport, but does not give you the edge in pvp.

To answer to your question, for pve, I do not slot cloak, but in open world I use it often to skip mobs while questing or travelling. In PvP (I mostly do non cp BGs), I have it slotted, but I do not use it much, because the action is more intense than in zerg pvp where you get heals and buffs for lots of people. As I said.. cloaking does not save you if decent pvp-ers notice you are around. Yes, in Cyro you might find a spot to hide, but in BGs, there is hardly the case or reason to hide, so it really depends so much on the context we are talking.

Don't. Don't argue with magsorc players in this forum. It's pointless.

Uhm ok. First off, my post was made in response to someone who claimed that magblade cannot play without Cloak. @kind_hero you ridicule me for talking out of context but you take my response completely out of its context.

I never directly stated to remove Cloak, nor have I ever done so. My closing argument was that IF Cloak was removed, the night blade class wouldn't even be the worst, simply to prove the point that nightblades do not NEED Cloak as stated by the person I responded too since, like you said it is more of a playstyle choice, but one that the majority posit as the only way for the class to be competitive.

I will say that Cloak needs to be nerfed but Nightblade, especially magblade needs to be buffed defensively. I can go into an objective discussion regarding it but unless you prove that you yourself consider context (based on your previous reply, you do not) than I'm not going to go further.

@Ragnaroek93 My point was that Cloak spam is a crutch, the same way that Shield Stacking is a crutch. Shields got "nerfed" and I actually supported the sentiment, even if it came out to be a net buff. In fact, I'd go so far as to remove shield stacking so long as pets are made reliable (this does not mean buff pets) and Sorc mobility is made less clunky.

I showed proof that a good night blade does not need Cloak spam to perform well in PvP solo. This translates to Cloak being completely unnecessary for group play. What was your point? What did you prove?

Smashing some potatoes on console and tbagging them is a good proof

Funny how you don't care about sorc nerfs as long as they don't affect petbuilds. Having empowered Shadowrend as #1 dmg source in PvP and pets who deal more damage than proc sets ever did is fine, using Harness Magicka or a Nb class skill on the other side makes you a bad player.

It's enough proof that defensively, nightblades do not need Cloak in open world, as solo play is where the damage:mitigation/healing ratio leans most towards damage. In a group, cloak is useless since you have so much allies to LoS and constant heals. In a duel, magblades do not use Cloak, and a stamblade is better off running shadow image for the minor maim. So three areas of PvP: Solo, group and duels: none of which need Cloak to be competitive, in fact, you are better off not using Cloak unless you are a stamblade, and even than you get better results by using it sparingly, not between every light attack.

Please highlight where I said anything that you are referring to. Please point out where I stated any of the claims that you try to attribute to me simply because you have no counter argument to the fact the I provided visual evidence that Cloak is not mandatory.

I even stated that magblades should get a significant defensive buff, and that night blade as a whole needs a defensive buff. Did you read that? Are you against buffing Nightblades?

But Cloak is mandatory for some playstyles.

Not everyone wants to be pigeonholed into running Armor Master or Fortified Brass. I want to run light armor and mitigate damage the same way I have for years.

If I wanted to play upclose and personal, I would play my DK or Templar.

ZonasArch

.

IAVITNI

kind_hero wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Uhm ok. First off, my post was made in response to someone who claimed that magblade cannot play without Cloak. @kind_hero you ridicule me for talking out of context but you take my response completely out of its context.

I never directly stated to remove Cloak, nor have I ever done so. My closing argument was that IF Cloak was removed, the night blade class wouldn't even be the worst, simply to prove the point that nightblades do not NEED Cloak as stated by the person I responded too since, like you said it is more of a playstyle choice, but one that the majority posit as the only way for the class to be competitive.

I will say that Cloak needs to be nerfed but Nightblade, especially magblade needs to be buffed defensively. I can go into an objective discussion regarding it but unless you prove that you yourself consider context (based on your previous reply, you do not) than I'm not going to go further.

@Ragnaroek93 My point was that Cloak spam is a crutch, the same way that Shield Stacking is a crutch. Shields got "nerfed" and I actually supported the sentiment, even if it came out to be a net buff. In fact, I'd go so far as to remove shield stacking so long as pets are made reliable (this does not mean buff pets) and Sorc mobility is made less clunky.

I showed proof that a good night blade does not need Cloak spam to perform well in PvP solo. This translates to Cloak being completely unnecessary for group play. What was your point? What did you prove?

OK.. I also replied to more coments than just yours, so sorry for taking out of context in regards to your opinion.

I have said more than enough in this thread (btw, in regards to the remark about the futility of arguing with mag sorcs on the forum, I main a magblade and have magsorc as an active alt ) so what I want to conclude is that adjustments might be needed or whatever, but I really dislike when people are calling for nerfs in regards to class identity abilities which will make all classes look the same.

ESO is based on a role playing game, that's why we pick classes when we start the game. Nightblade is a class that can sneak and vanish to attack from the shadows (ok, all classes can sneak, but you get my point). Sorceror is a class that can call lighning and teleport, DK can transform into a "dragon", and so on. These differences should not be blurred just for pvp sake. Sure, the game lets you play outside of these archetypes, but I am sure everyone who has a nightblade, slots cloak when doing Thieves Guild/DB missions

Nobody is stating that nightblades should not be able to Cloak. Because you seem like a sensible person and respond based o context and factual evidence (I consider class identity and the shadowy nature of Nightblade almost paramount to balance), I'll discuss why Cloak needs to be addressed.

The skill provides way too much at the moment. You can completely reset fights, suppress DoTs, force misses, and as an escape tool it works better than Streak because anyone with half a brain will know not to run and Cloak in a straight line. And you can do all this without investing into magicka sustain as a night blade. I can sustain Cloak to the point where I can survive an entire 24 man searching for a single nightblade with average 1 out of every 4 potions providing magicka sustain.

If you look at the last clip, that stamblade was able to cloak 11 times (iirc) and was doing so pretty much every other attack. That stamblade still had enough burst to get me into execute with a typical incap combo. It is not hard to have enough magicka to achieve near perma cloak.

Now I don't want to remove perma cloak. If that's what players want to do, than they have the right. However, using a skill incorrectly should punish players. Over shield stacking drains magicka sorcs of resources the same way as Dk wing spam and Magplar BoL spam. The difference is, those classes still take considerable pressure while doing so, where a breath of life can be completely negated by damage, and a shield stack takes up 2 gcds and can still be taken down in the same 2 GCDs. Whereas a night blade can spam Cloak, and suddenly has complete offensive advantage because they pressure drops off completely.

Cloak also requires specific counters to it. One has to sacrifice a potion for real counterplay or use AoEs that are easily avoided. A good night blade really doesn't care about AoEs if they Cloak right. 1 roll dodge and you're good. There needs to be some drawback for spamming Cloak, but currently there is none, especially on stamblade who sacrifice there off resource. A night blade can Cloak, return to full health and on top of which can open with a CC and guaranteed crit and follow it up with enough burst to kill most players. The damage of a night blade is fine at the moment, but Cloak artificially inflates their survivability. A Cloak blade has a much higher chance of survival in open world than any other class simply because you can Cloak and walk backwards. A sorc will be chased by players on mounts and no other class has enough mobility to reliably escape a zerg.

Personally, I would repress HoTs (and by extension Health Recovery or at least Troll King) as well as DoTs. Allied burst heals like BoL or heals such as Healing Ward of Rally can still heal while Cloaked, because those require proper timing to be effective with Cloak. But being able to Cloak and heal to full due to DoT repression and inability to actually damage a good night blade outside of extreme examples such as stam sorc (which is still really easy to Cloak against if you know what you're doing) is an imbalance. there needs to be a counter balance. For instance, I agree with the Healing Ward change as it extends execute range, but the problem is that magblade and magsorc were not given viable alternatives or supplementary healing.

That said, concession would have to be made. The passives that provide healing and health should be made static, so the class naturally has better healing outside of Cloak. Detect pots (all hard counters) should be removed. Mark at a 5 second duration was a solid design change. Reduce the counters to Cloak, increase night blade survivability but also reduce the benefits of Cloak. If a night blade spams cloak, they should not be able to heal with HoTs. This would force nightblades to actually think about when to Cloak, instead of pressing it whenever. Using Cloak at the wrong times or repeatedly means you cannot re-engage offensively on demand if HoTs stopped working in Cloak.

And because I know someone is going to say "well sorcs can shield stack whenever". Currently no class has issues getting through shields. If you can't than that is simply a you problem. Secondly, shields scale horribly outnumbered whereas Cloak increases in strength with every opponent unable to hit them.

A fair fight means both players have equal opportunity to hit the other. In the case of Cloak, only 1 player has the option of hitting the other, outside of hard counters such as detect pots that should never have been introduced anyways.

Iskiab

Stupid thread, more whining. So entitled, the game already favours classes like DKs who don’t rely on these abilities.

You - think - you’re skilled which is why you’re doing well. The reality is bow dps and nightblades have already been balanced with these abilities in mind, if not overbalanced and the classes and play styles who use these abilities are too weak.

A NB cloaks away from a DK, no ***, it’s an inwinable battle for the NB. You’re trying to force other players to fight battles where the game gives you an advantage. Keep the pvp in the game and off the forums.

Druid40

Snipe and uppercut should have increasing costs. Snipe should have the range reduced to parity with other long ranged skills. Cloak is annoying, but fine. It is the only real class defense for nightblades. If you want it gone, come up with a good alternative. Block when they cloak. Use magelight/hunter/detect potions/AOEs. If they get away, so what? They lost. Earthgore? Combo damage, zerg harder, or move on.

technohic

So for earthgore; I ran it myself for the first time ever. I think if I really wanted to use that set on more than one of my alts doing stupid stuff; I'd be willing to trade quite a bit of the cheesepower for it to be somehow more controlled rather than if you have a heal hit some numb nuts that just fell off a wall. I mean it has stupid ultimate level effect, but can be wasted so easily.

thankyourat

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

IAVITNI wrote: »

kind_hero wrote: »

Do you realise that cloak is the defining ability of the nightblade, especially the magicka nightblade?

You keep asking to nerf the cloak to what end? Have you tried playing a magNB and found out that it is way to easy thanks to the cloak? What are your defences in BG as a magNB? You are a mage that can sneak, that's all, but a poor mage, because you lack any burst damage. I main a mnb and cloak does not save me that often, because it is so easy to counter!!! So I can't even imagine what will be fair play to you while fighting a STEALTHY class, the nightblade. Stealth and cloak is the reason I picked this class from the very begining, and at that time I did not had pvp in mind at all... just that cloak is a fun ability a trademark of the nightblade, a rogue/thief class in RPGs. So even if you keep spaming it, there are so many aoe's and dots that get you out of it, you can really use it effectively for a split second, then you really need act - either flee, or reengage in a new attack. But the problem is, once your enemies know you are around and using cloak, they activate their defences, pots, aoe spams, and act weary, so the cloak is not going to work for long.

The whole skill tree of the mnb is imagined to put pressure on the target with snares and dots, but you do not have a burst attack like the stamblade has with snipe, you have to build it up hoping that by the time you get the bow proc your target is still in range or has not destroyed you. I am really wondering if you know what you are talking about, when you discuss cloak nerfs.

So yea, snipe is bad because it is cheap, you do not need much skill to find a sweet spot and keep ganking people. But you can't also just nerf it to the ground, making snipe hit like a wet noodle. Snipers are usually easy to destroy if you get close to them because they fear melee combat, and are not prepaired for it. So each thing has a counter, and the nice thing about PvP is working to find out these counters, finding what works for you and getting better at it. Asking for nerfs on forums is not one of those counters.

Majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak. And no, you don't need it for open world.

Have you tried playing magblade without it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuzJ2N2yg8w

Try pulling that off by spamming Cloak as a magblade lol. You won't.

You want to say stamblade needs cloak spam?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt0qj6YzH9A&t=175s

Yes, he has cloak on his bar but look at how many times he actually uses it. If Cloak increased in cost by 500% for 10 seconds after use, this guy wouldn't even be affected by it. Why? Because he's a good stamblade that knows how to play.

And for a direct comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQcY4GPJU6s&t=1m36s

I'm not even a good stamblade. If you look at the last fight you can see how I literally don't cloak once in the 1v1 and get an easy dub.

Every single night blade that says Cloak is weak is bad.

Cloak is a crutch for bad players. People think that you need Cloak to play a stamblade. You don't. You need skill to play it, arguably less than other classes in the current meta, but flat out removing Cloak wouldn't even destroy the class. It would make it significantly weaker, but the first 2 videos prove you don't need it, and you especially don't need to spam it. The last clip shows the kind of players that crutch on Cloak spam. All you're doing is setting a glass ceiling for yourself by relying on Cloak.

If you don't think Cloak can't be nerfed because it would destroy nightblades...well you're just bad.

So now I am a bad player because I slot cloak? Or because some other players prefer not to use it, is it bad, and since it is bad, should it also become worse, with a nerf? What is the logic? BTW... I am not interested in stamblades, they have access to FM and other tools, I play a magicka nightblade. Also Cyrodiil pvp is different than noncp BG pvp.

This is one of the problems here... many people talk about a very specific situation and playstyle, which they try to overlap to the whole game, including pve, instead of mentioning something like: IN Cp AvA PvP, in 1vX or zerg vs zerg, there is this problem with _insert skill_. My proposal is this, I did a test with this build and came up with these conclusions.... Most people just vent their anger after losing some games or skirmishes.

Also you are referring to your playstyle and preference, which is not optimal or fun for everyone. Same with the OP... don't tell me the skills I use are bad or have to be nerfed, or if you do, come with some constructive feedback which is not going to antagonise players. Saying the ping is low is not really a balance issue.

Again.. stop telling people how to play the game and their chars. (you are telling me that I do not need cloak for the open world, which is clearly a matter of choice, since the open world is the main casual play area of the game).

Your arguments would be valid if the cloak ability would have almost no counter and would create a huge advantage to its user. But it is hardly the case... it is more an annoyance to the one fighting a magblade, and as people know, it has many counters which are not class restricted, this being the reason behind "majority of the best magblades don't even use cloak", as you say. So then, why nerf it or change it? You say it is a crutch for bad players, which I doubt, since it does not make you hard to kill like pre-murkmire shields made you, especially sorc shield. It is convenient to vanish and makes some things easier, same like the sorc's teleport, but does not give you the edge in pvp.

To answer to your question, for pve, I do not slot cloak, but in open world I use it often to skip mobs while questing or travelling. In PvP (I mostly do non cp BGs), I have it slotted, but I do not use it much, because the action is more intense than in zerg pvp where you get heals and buffs for lots of people. As I said.. cloaking does not save you if decent pvp-ers notice you are around. Yes, in Cyro you might find a spot to hide, but in BGs, there is hardly the case or reason to hide, so it really depends so much on the context we are talking.

Don't. Don't argue with magsorc players in this forum. It's pointless.

Uhm ok. First off, my post was made in response to someone who claimed that magblade cannot play without Cloak. @kind_hero you ridicule me for talking out of context but you take my response completely out of its context.

I never directly stated to remove Cloak, nor have I ever done so. My closing argument was that IF Cloak was removed, the night blade class wouldn't even be the worst, simply to prove the point that nightblades do not NEED Cloak as stated by the person I responded too since, like you said it is more of a playstyle choice, but one that the majority posit as the only way for the class to be competitive.

I will say that Cloak needs to be nerfed but Nightblade, especially magblade needs to be buffed defensively. I can go into an objective discussion regarding it but unless you prove that you yourself consider context (based on your previous reply, you do not) than I'm not going to go further.

@Ragnaroek93 My point was that Cloak spam is a crutch, the same way that Shield Stacking is a crutch. Shields got "nerfed" and I actually supported the sentiment, even if it came out to be a net buff. In fact, I'd go so far as to remove shield stacking so long as pets are made reliable (this does not mean buff pets) and Sorc mobility is made less clunky.

I showed proof that a good night blade does not need Cloak spam to perform well in PvP solo. This translates to Cloak being completely unnecessary for group play. What was your point? What did you prove?

Smashing some potatoes on console and tbagging them is a good proof

Funny how you don't care about sorc nerfs as long as they don't affect petbuilds. Having empowered Shadowrend as #1 dmg source in PvP and pets who deal more damage than proc sets ever did is fine, using Harness Magicka or a Nb class skill on the other side makes you a bad player.

It's enough proof that defensively, nightblades do not need Cloak in open world, as solo play is where the damage:mitigation/healing ratio leans most towards damage. In a group, cloak is useless since you have so much allies to LoS and constant heals. In a duel, magblades do not use Cloak, and a stamblade is better off running shadow image for the minor maim. So three areas of PvP: Solo, group and duels: none of which need Cloak to be competitive, in fact, you are better off not using Cloak unless you are a stamblade, and even than you get better results by using it sparingly, not between every light attack.

Please highlight where I said anything that you are referring to. Please point out where I stated any of the claims that you try to attribute to me simply because you have no counter argument to the fact the I provided visual evidence that Cloak is not mandatory.

I even stated that magblades should get a significant defensive buff, and that night blade as a whole needs a defensive buff. Did you read that? Are you against buffing Nightblades?

That's not proof that magblades don't need Cloak open world. That example is basically saying stamina players don't need vigor and then post some 1vX clips of a stamina character playing without vigor to justify it. Can you win some 1vXs without cloak, of course you can but your are gimping your build by not running it this patch and honestly magblade is already not as competitive as most the other classes for open world PvP as is. There is no reason to further gimp your build. If you want to attempt to be competitive with the other classes in 1vX Cloak is mandatory at the moment. Now if you want to just get some 1vX clips you can run anything if the players you pull are bad enough.

labambao

You want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec

templesus

labambao wrote: »

You want to see nightblade? Let's make cloak just cleance 5 negative effects and give minor vitality for 3 sec

Sure. Nerfing cloak only nerfs bad players and bad players won’t make good use of a purge. That actually sounds like a great change since it removed cloak entirely, thanks for the suggestion!

Iskiab

What really needs to be nerfed are healing springs, wings, permafrost, negate, and the damage boost DKs have against knocked down opponents.

The fact that this silly thread was made just shows how overpowered they are. People would rather continue with ball groups and complain about their pvp choices having counters. Looks to me like some have been doing it for so long they’ve confused themselves relying on these OP abilities for ‘skill’, to the point they’ve stopped playing the classes without them.

Whenever someone asks to win at the character creation screen something is broken. Choosing a certain class is not skill, to then ask for other classes to be nerfed when you already have an advantage is pathetic.

IzzyStardust

templesus wrote: »

Some changes proposed new on discord:

Cloak is given the mist form treatment. There’s absolutely no reason for it to function differently.

Snipe and Bow ult swap, with snipe now being an ultimate and bow ult being the Bow spammable as a channel similar to flurry. Drastically improves bow PvE DPS as well.

Timestop heal negation and snare removed but the animation is sped up to compensate and the CC breaking of it needs to be fixed.

Earthgore reworked as an AOE remove all negative effects when you heal an ally below 50%, healing component completely removed.

No thank you; unless these can be made in PVP only. Also the other morph does that anyway.

IzzyStardust

templesus wrote: »

NyassaV wrote: »

I agree but seeing as magblade is on it's last leg ATM I don't see nerfing cloak as a good idea at all especially since there are many counters in existence. If magblade wasn't so crappy right now I'd be down to talk about cloak changes though.

I actually play MagNB, and to tell you the truth if cloak was reworked to remove snares and given the mist form treatment I would prefer it to the current state it is in personally and actually slot it. Snares are my #1 weakness on magblade.

kind_hero wrote: »

Do you realise that cloak is the defining ability of the nightblade, especially the magicka nightblade?

You keep asking to nerf the cloak to what end? Have you tried playing a magNB and found out that it is way to easy thanks to the cloak? What are your defences in BG as a magNB? You are a mage that can sneak, that's all, but a poor mage, because you lack any burst damage. I main a mnb and cloak does not save me that often, because it is so easy to counter!!! So I can't even imagine what will be fair play to you while fighting a STEALTHY class, the nightblade. Stealth and cloak is the reason I picked this class from the very begining, and at that time I did not had pvp in mind at all... just that cloak is a fun ability a trademark of the nightblade, a rogue/thief class in RPGs. So even if you keep spaming it, there are so many aoe's and dots that get you out of it, you can really use it effectively for a split second, then you really need act - either flee, or reengage in a new attack. But the problem is, once your enemies know you are around and using cloak, they activate their defences, pots, aoe spams, and act weary, so the cloak is not going to work for long.

The whole skill tree of the mnb is imagined to put pressure on the target with snares and dots, but you do not have a burst attack like the stamblade has with snipe, you have to build it up hoping that by the time you get the bow proc your target is still in range or has not destroyed you. I am really wondering if you know what you are talking about, when you discuss cloak nerfs.

So yea, snipe is bad because it is cheap, you do not need much skill to find a sweet spot and keep ganking people. But you can't also just nerf it to the ground, making snipe hit like a wet noodle. Snipers are usually easy to destroy if you get close to them because they fear melee combat, and are not prepaired for it. So each thing has a counter, and the nice thing about PvP is working to find out these counters, finding what works for you and getting better at it. Asking for nerfs on forums is not one of those counters.

I play MagNB and I don’t use cloak. In fact, most MagNBs I know don’t use cloak. https://youtu.be/YuzJ2N2yg8w

Play magblade and never use cloak.

IzzyStardust

templesus wrote: »

Ozby wrote: »

Yeah lets nerf everything that's useful in PVE

Only one of the 4 that’s used in Endgame PvE is earthgore, and as someone who’s completed every vet trial in the game I can in fact say you do not need earthgore to complete any content in the game. It is in fact a carry in PvE.

And you shouldn’t be nerfing ANYTHING just because it’s not used in ENDGAME.

You need to cater to most, not 1%.

Most are not the people in the class rep discord.

There are lots of TANKS without talons who use timestop on trash and you shouldn’t stop them from it, same goes with healers in pugs, with Earthgore. No reason to make helping a lower skilled group through something that much harder.

Idk about snipe or cloak; I don’t care about either really.

hyraak

I agree on some of these, however, cloak does not need a nerf. If you played a nb you would know why it doesn't need a nerf, literally everything pulls you out of stealth especially when it is laggy. The rest could do with some changes. Snipe being the big one, the damage itself doesn't not need nerfed, the ability to spam it (which is more so the problem when when it lagging) and have it desync and kill you before you even know what happened. It's needs a longer cast time so you have a chance to react to it. Say 2.5 - 3 seconds (inevitable detenation having a similar cast time). Snare should be removed or reduced from Time Stop and Earthgore should not have the negating effect AND a large AOE heal.

spartaxoxo

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^

I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.

It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.

If endgame elites feel like a set is a carry. They have the choice not to use it. Simple.

I run trials that aren’t made up of elite players, and we still wipe. Endgame players that can beat content naked and with their eyes closed, shouldn’t even be giving their opinions on the game difficulty for less skilled players. Just my opinion.

Tholian1 wrote: »

templesus wrote: »

Earthgore is a carry in PvE^^^

I’ve completed all endgame Vet content without earthgore. Tbh it acts as a failsafe mechanic to save groups from deaths when they mess up, essentially carrying them.

It’d do well to make endgame content more difficult and healer reliant by nerfing earthgore. I don’t think any actual endgame player has ever thought earthgore was healthy for Endgame PVE.

If endgame elites feel like a set is a carry. They have the choice not to use it. Simple.

I run trials that aren’t made up of elite players, and we still wipe. Endgame players that can beat content naked and with their eyes closed, shouldn’t even be giving their opinions on the game difficulty for less skilled players. Just my opinion.

So would you rather this set carry your group and actually putting in the work to better your group so this set isn’t necessary?

You're acting like everyone has a group. They don't. This game already has some of the lowest completion ratios of non-score end game content out there, people already queue dodge and some people wait months or years to be able to try out new content. PvE doesn't need to be made harder.

Plenty of people have never stepped foot in the endgame content despite being around for years and having the builds necessary to beat that content, because endgame guilds don't like taking inexperienced people and going through some week long process to train them.

Good for you if you did it. But Earthgore is not a carry set, it is a training tool. Elitism like this is strangling the life out of this game.

templesus

Iskiab wrote: »

What really needs to be nerfed are healing springs, wings, permafrost, negate, and the damage boost DKs have against knocked down opponents.

The fact that this silly thread was made just shows how overpowered they are. People would rather continue with ball groups and complain about their pvp choices having counters. Looks to me like some have been doing it for so long they’ve confused themselves relying on these OP abilities for ‘skill’, to the point they’ve stopped playing the classes without them.

Whenever someone asks to win at the character creation screen something is broken. Choosing a certain class is not skill, to then ask for other classes to be nerfed when you already have an advantage is pathetic.

1. I play Templar so the things you mentioned don’t effect me
2. I solo/small scale so I don’t know what you’re talking about when it comes to ball groups
3. Assuming people fit a certain stereotype just shows why you’re not fit to have structural debate on the forums. Can’t argue with someone who thinks they know your thoughts/ideals all the way up to your playstyle when they’re not even remotely close.

GeneralRoadkill

O boo hoo, a game has an assassin class that can go invisible and do what assassins should do - assassinate a target and slip away to fight another day. If you can’t figure out how to play against that, then cry me a river so tracking you will be all the easier. You want the game to be easier, this will at least remove the effort of having to track you since I can follow your wailing, Moaning Myrtle.

For those who legitimately want to learn to play, I find acid spray, caltrops and steel tornado pop me out of stealth most often so have at it! (Detect pots and Flare also work pretty well for the few who use these.)

Kadoin

GeneralRoadkill wrote: »

O boo hoo, a game has an assassin class that can go invisible and do what assassins should do - assassinate a target and slip away to fight another day. If you can’t figure out how to play against that, then cry me a river so tracking you will be all the easier. You want the game to be easier, this will at least remove the effort of having to track you since I can follow your wailing, Moaning Myrtle.

For those who legitimately want to learn to play, I find acid spray, caltrops and steel tornado pop me out of stealth most often so have at it! (Detect pots and Flare also work pretty well for the few who use these.)

It's funny how you say that, as NBs will be the ones crying rivers next patch if curse-eater stays the same

GeneralRoadkill

Kadoin wrote: »

It's funny how you say that, as NBs will be the ones crying rivers next patch if curse-eater stays the same

That’s fine, I’ve never had any problems with anything in the game (balance-wise). Some things are annoying af, but I get over it and adapt to the changes as they come. Not everyone is so quick to adapt, and instead cling to outdated builds and ideals.

Some people are also completely unaware that people have been crying about cloak since launch and that it has already been nerfed to oblivion and back several times, but can’t blame OP since he is in PS4 and wasn’t there for it all.

Kadoin

GeneralRoadkill wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

It's funny how you say that, as NBs will be the ones crying rivers next patch if curse-eater stays the same

That’s fine, I’ve never had any problems with anything in the game (balance-wise). Some things are annoying af, but I get over it and adapt to the changes as they come. Not everyone is so quick to adapt, and instead cling to outdated builds and ideals.

Some people are also completely unaware that people have been crying about cloak since launch and that it has already been nerfed to oblivion and back several times, but can’t blame OP since he is in PS4 and wasn’t there for it all.

Eh doubt people would have a problem if basic detect and stealth pots were available at every vendor in PvP-land. Why that's not the case makes little sense to me considering both mechanics are almost exclusively used in PvP, but who knows how ZOS applies logic these days...

kind_hero

IAVITNI wrote: »

The skill provides way too much at the moment. You can completely reset fights, suppress DoTs, force misses, and as an escape tool it works better than Streak because anyone with half a brain will know not to run and Cloak in a straight line. And you can do all this without investing into magicka sustain as a night blade. I can sustain Cloak to the point where I can survive an entire 24 man searching for a single nightblade with average 1 out of every 4 potions providing magicka sustain.

[...]

A fair fight means both players have equal opportunity to hit the other. In the case of Cloak, only 1 player has the option of hitting the other, outside of hard counters such as detect pots that should never have been introduced anyways.

I selected two paragraph from your lenghty response to point out two things:

1) it is clear to me that you are talking about Cyrodiil PvP, and from my experience there as a magblade who uses cloak in Cyrodiil, it is quite rare for me to get away from a group vs group situation using cloak because there are always at least two people who will use caltrops in the direction I vanished. So it does not really work, unless I am away from the group or there is some cover like a building, ditch, rock, tree, etc. It is not really that effective, it is situational. It works better if you gank, because then you are picking your targets.

2) The fights don't have to be fair, otherwise the devs would punish gankers, snipers and all the tricksters in the game. Even if you lose fairly, in the end it does not seem fair Sniping is not fair, but it is a play style. Attacking from cloak is not fair, because as you say, the attacker does not have the same opportunity to hit the enemy, he has the upper hand. PvP is like war, and war is never fair. Sport is fair or at least it tries to be, but in sports each one competes using the same type of equipment and plays by the same rules in a controlled enviroment. It is not the case here. Fair would be that each pvp game to contain only players of the same class and resource (stam/mag), but that would be boring, right?

DoonerSeraph

Two of these need fixes, not nerfs IMO.

Snipe has a completely unnecessary long range (35m base), could be lowered to 28m base to put it in line with other skills. I've played a stamsorc sniper and I don't like spamming Focused Aim, but sometimes my target is so far away I don't have any other skill to use.

I think sniping from the top of keeps is totally fine, it puts a giant target on your face and people will try to burst your glass cannon from afar. What needs to be fixed is that desync bug, and maaaybe the major defile is a bit over the top. Things like increasing cost and cast time would ruin the only role this skill has on PvE (as the bow "spammable", crushing weapon does not benefit from bow's passive, and no, not talking about those guys who only use snipe and no dots).

Time stop does not need things like cost increase, again that would ruin it for the tanks who use it instead of talons or gripping shards. It again needs fixing of the CC breaking bug. Maybe if the skill would not snare people who are under CC immunity to avoid rewarding spamming?

About cloak, I find it annoying but still fine, also there are detect potions and the new Sentry set (not sure if someone will use it tho), maybe increase the radius of magelight and expert hunter, anti-stealth specific skills that suck very badly.

Earthgore needs to prevent rewarding multiple people stacking it, make it so if you get healed by its proc, you can't be affected by another earthgore proc for the same duration of its cooldown. It will still be a lifesaver, just not firing off another player every 5 seconds.

GeneralRoadkill

lol

Kadoin wrote: »

Eh doubt people would have a problem if basic detect and stealth pots were available at every vendor in PvP-land. Why that's not the case makes little sense to me considering both mechanics are almost exclusively used in PvP, but who knows how ZOS applies logic these days...

Now that is something I could get behind. Very good idea, we need more outside the box ideas like this instead of just trying to nerf everything!

EDIT:

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

About cloak, I find it annoying but still fine, also there are detect potions and the new Sentry set (not sure if someone will use it tho), maybe increase the radius of magelight and expert hunter, anti-stealth specific skills that suck very badly.

This too - doubt anyone will use a set just for this purpose but 6 meters on hunter/magelight ain’t squat. Flare is at least 10 meters ..

brandonv516

GeneralRoadkill wrote: »

lol

Kadoin wrote: »

Eh doubt people would have a problem if basic detect and stealth pots were available at every vendor in PvP-land. Why that's not the case makes little sense to me considering both mechanics are almost exclusively used in PvP, but who knows how ZOS applies logic these days...

Now that is something I could get behind. Very good idea, we need more outside the box ideas like this instead of just trying to nerf everything!

Agreed. I would love more PvP potions available. Ones with stealth detection, speed, immovability (with +magicka or +stamina), etc.

zaria

Nerf request should cost CP.
This would be an buff to Kyne population long term

BrokenGameMechanics

Dr.NRG wrote: »

Grumpsorc wrote: »

Give cloak a streak treatment.

That would be too rough on stamblades. Cloak would need to cost stam first before that could work.

How is that any different (i.e. not "too rough") than the Dodgeroll Treatment on magica builds. 10K stam for blocking, spriinting, dodge rolling, and breaking free is effectively nothing.