PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

youre wrong.

IronWooshu

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

youre wrong.

On what? Healing received?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

IronWooshu wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

youre wrong.

On what? Healing received?

yes, it amps all heal you take, from your self or outside.

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

Make an account on uesp and do your theory crafting there, they have all the formulas.

HealingDone = Item.HealingDone + Set.HealingDone + Skill.HealingDone + CP.HealingDone + Buff.HealingDone + Mundus.HealingDone

WeyounTM

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

The problem with Khajiit is that crit damage modifiers push their DPS higher than anyone else right now.

That might be true with the elite 1% of all the playerbase...but you have to see the whole picture to actually come to a proper conclusion. In the end there will always be a mathematical "BIS" for those players that reign supreme in their skill and are in groups that can pull anything off regardless.
But for the big majority that doesn't ring true. There might be a huge percentage of players that would be better off using a race that is better sustain wise then relying on the crit alone and running out of resources during the fight. Either because they are not "top notch" players or their group isn't either. Categorically saying this is "the best always" is just not true. It might be for Hodor and Alcast and others...but these guys are in the minority. And neither is advocating everyone should run Advancing Yokeda daggers.

And I am not saying that because now my chars maybe are getting buffed. I know that I am not on the skill level that is required to make full use of those passives regardless. I am just advocating for a more balanced view of all the racials in regards to what is "mathematically the best". Because while it might be best for you...it might not be best for everyone.

John_Falstaff

@MLGProPlayer , the above is sort of a point; yes, crit pulls ahead with perfect warhorn uptime. But there won't ever be perfect warhorn uptime except in a handful of guilds, so vast majority of player base won't ever get the advantage you're speaking about, even if it's there - and it may not be there because (I replied earlier in this thread) on the parses, you see how far behind khajiits are in sustain, and it's not a given that khajiits won't have to lose all their advantage by being forced to run regen food. I don't know how to explain the huge difference in sustain between altmer and khajiit on Liko's parses, but it's there, khajiit is way behind on regen.

Also, independently of the above, and speaking of warhorn uptime... Experienced folks - would nord's passive be of any advantage to keep better warhorn uptime, or lone nord tank would be just out of sync with the rest of the pipeline, and wasting the extra ultimate? I can't think of it in detail now, but I vaguely imagine that it might be difficult to utilize extra ultimate if one has to wait for others (with lower ultimate regen) and accumulate too much only to waste it afterwards.

anadandy

Disclaimer: Not hardcore theorycrafter and bad at math

I played my Bosmer a little last night. She's max CP, all medium, bow with all passives and steed mundus. I have to say - that 3 second movement bonus makes little noticeable difference in her mobility. Certainly not enough that it's worth the trade off for losing the extra stealth radius - which was noticeable. I got "caught" more than usual doing the usual sneak through a delve quick to get the undaunted daily.

I don't use her in PVP though, so maybe that's where the new passive shines. That highlights my issue with it.

TankHealz2015

Bosmer:
PVP dodge roll great
PvE stealth reduction not great. two zones for sneaky missions (Hews Bane & Gold Coast) but RPers and Questers get no love.

Imperial:
something feels missing
perhaps: reduce the cost of block, bash & break free by 200 (?) [instead of 5%]

Love Nord and Khajit changes.

Anoregon

Drako_Ei wrote: »

Argonian got nerfed into the ground because of resourceful pasive, i would rather to have that passive removed, so we can get real balance, I wont be playing with the character i have been playing for years next patch, and that makes me really sad, and i refuse to change his race, even if it means not being always at the top, but i wasnt expecting it to become the wrost race, at this point rework argonian passives please, do something like you did with khajiits, or at least let the race be cosmetic except for the fun passive (bosmer, orcs, altmers and redguards will disagree)

I hear ya. I play my Argonian characters because I think Argonians are cool. I like my character being a lizard dude. I like their weird relationship with tree sap. I like that they are so well adapted to life in the Black Marsh that it's almost completely impregnable.

I don't play Argonian because I want to be overpowered or have the strongest racials. However, that doesn't mean I'm fine with being the weakest. I shouldn't have to accept that, in order to play the race I like the most, that I'm intentionally choosing one of the least effective options for my character's role. I also don't like that resourcefulness pigeonholes you into a certain playstyle and gear setup in order to mitigate the fact that Argonian's don't have any proper damage or sustain passives.

Sinolai

From lore point of view:
Most of these changes are good. A couple of pain points:

Argonians - The lore would support argonians to have resistance for both disease and poisons. The removal of poison resistance didn't really make sense in that regard, apart from ZOS wanting to give it uniquely for Bosmers. I think smaller values for both disease and poison resistances were fitting.

Imperials - The new imperial passives are heavily tank oriented and effective in that. They have huge health and stamina boosts and the red diamond helps them to recover health in a unique way. The passives are definietly not bad. However, the elder scrolls lore is full of famous imperial mages such as Zurin Arctus, Abnur Tharn, Spetima Tharn, Battlemage Papus, Jagar Tharn, Luciana Pullo and Elder scrolls legends has several Imperial Necromancer cards. The Tharn family is specifically well known for their practice of magic. Thus, I am a little bit disappointed that the imperial passives do not provide anything that would support magicka class. I was hoping them to get similar treatment to Khajiits that give some bonuses for all stats and a powerful unique passive to help their viability.

Dunmer - The biggest pain point of these balance changes. Though dunmers are good with both sword and magic, the lore supports powerful Dunmer mages more than swordsmen. They have the same origin as Altmers.
Lore aside, the Dunmers are also competing for the number 1 magicka race title with Altmer currently on live. Dunmer beats Altmer in raw damage but loses in sustain and many end-game magicka players are Dunmer. In the current PTS, Dunmer has clearly lost their competition to Altmer. They have no sustain, less damage and less max resources. This annoys many of the end-game Dunmer players and the fact that Dunmers are now the best stamina class doesn't comfort players who wants to play magicka. The +600 Max hp passive is not very useful nor supported by lore very well. Thus, I'd suggest to change it to something more useful. I think this thread had an interesting suggestion to give them extra chance to proc status effects:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5737723#Comment_5737723 A unique passive that supports both magicka and stamina playstyle, as well as increasing the viability of magicka Dunmers.

Olupajmibanan

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

megasurge93

Prior to this newly announced racial changes, I always wanted to see Nords with a passive that gives ice damage increase, similar to what Dunmer had for fire damage. It would be really neat to see a decent ice based dps, imo. Not sure if it would work now with the way the other racial changes are going, but maybe if they had a spell damage buff for ice dps plausibility (I mean, Nords do have quite the affinity with the snow & ice).

In regards to creating racial uniqueness by these passive changes, I believe it has been stated already that Dunmer and Imperial both feel less unique than how the other passives made the races feel. Here's potentially a couple of ideas...

I'm not sure what exactly to do to change that from a numbers game aspect, but I always thought of Imperial as more of an elite guard and militant...perhaps giving them a reduced cost to armor or alliance war skill lines similar to how Redguard have with weapon skills? It's minor but it at least shows something in regards to their immersion in the wars.

As far as Dunmer (Dark Elves), they don't seem to be as magic oriented as they once were and this goes against how I perceive them to be, especially after the Morrorwind chapter with the Telvanni and such. I do like how they are now show-casing their diversity in weapon use now, but there should be something a bit more to highlight their magical affinity. Maybe like the above suggestion, it could add something like reduced cost to Guild skill line abilities? That could be interesting?

IronWooshu

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

dovakiin5574

I am 99% happy with these changes as I proposed some of these exact things many many months ago in the general forum.

The only thing I would personally change is Khajiit Robustness passive. I propose cutting the health recovery down to 75 or 50 and bumping up stamina and magicka recovery to 125. This would take away some of the sustain issues while also not unbalancing their dps. It would also be more beneficial for those who tank or heal with their Khajiit.

I have personally found it much harder to sustain on Khajiit stamina Nightblade, to the point it is uncomfortable. Magicka Nightblade was slightly better in terms of sustain, but I still felt pressure and had to heavy attack much more often than expected. My Templar tank Khajiit is also facing minor sustain issues on PTS.

Silver_Strider

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

Azyle1

dovakiin5574 wrote: »

I am 99% happy with these changes as I proposed some of these exact things many many months ago in the general forum.

The only thing I would personally change is Khajiit Robustness passive. I propose cutting the health recovery down to 75 or 50 and bumping up stamina and magicka recovery to 125. This would take away some of the sustain issues while also not unbalancing their dps. It would also be more beneficial for those who tank or heal with their Khajiit.

I have personally found it much harder to sustain on Khajiit stamina Nightblade, to the point it is uncomfortable. Magicka Nightblade was slightly better in terms of sustain, but I still felt pressure and had to heavy attack much more often than expected. My Templar tank Khajiit is also facing minor sustain issues on PTS.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Finedaible

I like most of these changes, especially the new flexibility of Khajiit and Altmer passives, though I would ask that you take Khajiiti's 100 health recovery away and redistribute those points into to the 75 stamina and magicka recovery. 75 Recovery is just far too low to make a difference, and the health recovery really isn't needed for most builds.

Stamina races seem balanced but Redguard might be a tad overloaded still. With that 8% cost reduction on weapon abilities and a stamina glyph on their infused weapon, Redguard is able to throw out weapon abilities AND weapon Ultimates like candy on Halloween, especially if they have sorcerer's 15% reduction on Ultimate cost.

Question, Does Imperial's Red Diamond heal have a cooldown, or a target cap? I feel this passive will really depend on those two factors.

Dunmer seems to have been nerfed a bit, but I do like how Dunmer and Altmer are not polarized towards elemental damage.

Bosmer will probably be the go-to for Werewolf, and I think that's fine. Although, Bosmer are still pretty polarized towards stamina builds, and I suspect most will be pushed towards bow builds with that movement bonus on dodge roll. Of course, no one is forced to go stamina build, but it's nice to have flexibility.

ftballjj20

I literally got registered just for this patch.

Mainly my concern is is with khajiit's, resource regen. The health reco is just about pointless as other have pointed out and the 75 for magic and stam recov, Worthless. I understand every class is getting regen nerf which i definitely am out with but when compared to other classes regen its not even comparable.
I also feel like your idea to make all classes unique and more lore friendly is a wonderful idea and for the most part u have dont a fantastic job and do need praises on that but there is two problems which have been pointed out: dummer and khajiit.

Dummer basically comes down to the loss of fire damage boost, which is its major identity. My suggestion maybe a 1 or 2 percent nothing crazy just a little percent. I know you would prefer a flat rate but 250 weapon amd spell damage plus another 150 flame damage my be a bit much but you couldnt lower the original bc then the results will be the same.
Also for the goal of hybrid classes, increase maybe disease damage by the same so that it isnt just a dk class. That would work good with night blades and maybe the new necro class.

Khajiits problem with identity to me, is really the second passive. Max stams? Khajiits arent tanky that are cats which can reg great and do crit. My suggestion is to increase the regen passive to 125-150. Change the second passive from max stats to either "when u do [insert damage here] you restore mag or stamina based on which pool is higher every x amount of seconds" or change it to "crit damage increase" by a flat unbroken rate. Mayby 500-1000. I doubt 1000 wont be broken but. But flat rate would really boost aoe crit damage so maybe like a 10 percent would due bc impen traits, impen set, and transmution sets can balance that still

Things that need nerf: really the only thing i have tested and seen would be the wood elfs 20 after rolls. Come on bow + wood elf race and u have a 40percent speed increase. I think you did that on purpose to get us worked up. I havent tested every class. Just wood elf, nord (love it btw), dummer and khajiit.

I was disappointed with no major class changes but at the same time with the race changes im 100 percent ok with it. I think overall a good update just really those two classes and that damn wood elf

IronWooshu

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

The Nord Ultimate passive doesn't put them BiS and is not that good as it sound, Imperials block passive doesn't put them BiS, their flat stats may put Imperial BiS but I highly doubt the tank meta changes for Argonians.. what race are you worried about that removes Argonian from the conversation? Redguard may take a run for BiS tank with weapon ability cost reduction and stam return but other than Redguard or Imperial I don't see them really moving Argonian much.

Nord isn't even in the conversation unless they change his passive to short cooldown and generate while in combat and not when taking damage.

Vahrokh

Dunmer have lost identity. Why roll a Dunmer, when the actual race does not match ANY of their rich lore?

Fire affinity? Gone.

Magicka affinity only second to Altmer? Gone.


In exchange, we get some "hybrid buff", like anyone in ESO could be even barely competitive with an hybrid build.

Maybe in 2014. In 2019 you are all out magicka / stamina or go home.

Plus, it's not mathematically sound.
Altmer get both more magicka, damage AND regen.

How balanced is that? This is a balance patch, right? Then make it balanced.

Dunmer used to be inferior to Altmer but had a "fire affinity" perk, that with certain builds and gear sets would still make them competitive.

All gone, now.

What's left of Dunmer:

• loss of lore
• loss of flavour
• loss of damage
• worse off in the "magicka builds" food chain than even Kajiit. That just does not sound right! Elves doing worse at magicka than felines? Really?

Azyle1

Vahrokh wrote: »

Dunmer have lost identity. Why roll a Dunmer, when the actual race does not match ANY of their rich lore?

Fire affinity? Gone.

Magicka affinity only second to Altmer? Gone.


In exchange, we get some "hybrid buff", like anyone in ESO could be even barely competitive with an hybrid build.

Maybe in 2014. In 2019 you are all out magicka / stamina or go home.

Plus, it's not mathematically sound.
Altmer get both more magicka, damage AND regen.

How balanced is that? This is a balance patch, right? Then make it balanced.

Dunmer used to be inferior to Altmer but had a "fire affinity" perk, that with certain builds and gear sets would still make them competitive.

All gone, now.

What's left of Dunmer:

• loss of lore
• loss of flavour
• loss of damage
• worse off in the "magicka builds" food chain than even Kajiit. That just does not sound right! Elves doing worse at magicka than felines? Really?

Go look at the other threads showing their dps is just fine.

Starlock

I'm on console and cannot PTS, but feel feedback should be valued and relevant regardless.

I really like what the team has done with the revisions overall. My number one concern when game changes happen is always that the developers will go off the deep end and abandon the importance of lore and story to please the number crunchers. Everything about the revised racials speaks to a respect for the backgrounds of the races. My characters will still feel like who they are supposed to be, and that's great! Thank you so much!

Gameplay wise, I'm not one to fuss about such things on the whole. Here are a couple of considerations I have for the team to think about:

• The new stealth detection passive in "hunter's eye" really fits the flavor of the Bosmer people. Stealth detection is only useful for PvP, however, unlike their previous "stealthy" passive. No other race has a passive that only helps in PvP; please reconsider this element of the "hunter's eye" passive. I notice that "increase damage done in stealth by 10%" has gone away for all races. Perhaps let this be the other ability paired with "hunter's eye" as it is useful in PvP and PvE contexts while still keeping the Bosmer flavor?
• How does the change to "tough" for the Imperial race stack up in various scenarios? Would it make sense to throw a little bit of physical resistance on top with this passive?

Here are some of the things I really like about the changes:

• Some races had passive abilities that only worked on melee attacks. It is really cool that you revisited these and they now apply to any direct damage attack!
• Adding flat values is a lot easier to understand than percentages and provides greater utility for racial abilities overall. I like this, even as I'm uncertain how it will impact some of my characters.
• I am really happy that my magical cat will be more magical! Maybe I will make her a brother or sister? Bright moons!
• I am also really happy with the changes to Dunmer. He's an exiled Ashlander who I built as magicka-melee, so the weapon damage bonus helps his light/heavy attacks (unfortunately, this boon is entirely mitigated by 1-hand/shield enchants getting a significant slash to their effectiveness though - I've already voiced that objection elsewhere)
• My plucky wood elf was built around roll dodging mobility. The racial movement speed bonus is going to be stupidly fun and obnoxious. "You get an arrow, and you get an arrow... and.. too slow!"
• I'm thinking the Altmer "spellcharge" passive will help with my lightning mage keeping his magick going. Yay!

naga.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

[M]any of the racial bonuses are percent increases of stats, rather than flat ones. This means races that provided a bonus to a stat that you didn’t focus into gave very little tangible impact[...] [Allowing] more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing [...] was one of our largest targets for this pass, since many playstyles had only one option for what was viable. This was done by converting percent bonuses into flat ones so they provide similar bonuses to all playstyles

What matters more in ESO than the role you're playing is whether you'll be stacking exclusively or primarily magicka or stamina to do it. The game does not encourage actual hybrid builds. All healers and magDDs stack magicka. All stamDDs stack stamina. Depending on the class and build, tanks want both, but one of them is inevitably preferred over the other. There's a reason why the vast majority of mixed stamina/magicka sets end up almost never being used and are treated no different than vendor trash.

The use of the secondary resource (i.e. magicka for stam characters and stamina for magicka characters) is limited and situational at best (e.g. casting Shadow Image or Shadow Cloak in PvP on stamblades). The need for it, if anyone at all has it, can be easily addressed by slotting in a tri-stat enchant when necessary. This method is much more efficient than introducing racial passives that fundamentally do nothing because they buff a virtually unused resource pool (e.g. the new Khajiit tri-stat passive - Robustness).

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

We decided to find a healthy standard for total racial power provided and used that budget (roughly 6.5 set bonuses) for the power that each passive would grant

Since you haven't provided the details of all calculations, including what's the calculation for passives that buff two mutually-exclusive resources, I'm going to assume what might be the issue. The problem seems to be related to the misunderstanding about playstyles I discussed above. Again, the new Khajiit 3-stat passive (i.e. Robustness) is helpful in illustrating what does not seem to work.

For the sake of the argument, let's assume that survivability is universally desired and focus on the 75 magicka and stamina recovery buffs. The fact it is that a characters only benefits from one of them. Stamina-based builds don't care about magicka recovery. Magicka-based builds don't care about stamina recovery... unless they pointlessly run around like headless chickens. Therefore, the total power value of Robustness is not 250 (100+75+75), which would put it roughly on par with the Bosmer's 258 buff to stamina regen (assuming health and resources buffs carry equal weight), but 175 (100+75).

Based on the videos and data provided in other threads, this results in a situation when Khajiit magblades and stamblades suffer immense difficulties when it comes to sustaining their rotation. With the latter being additionally hit by the change to enchantments on one-hand weapons. Let's be honest, nobody's gonna pick a race that in a sub-optimal group will have to heavy weave pre-Summerset style if there are two and three other races with better sustain available for magDDs (i.e. Altmer, Breton) and stamDDs (i.e. Orc, Redguard, Bosmer), respectively. What your proposed changes will effectively do in case of Khajiits and, by the look of it, also Dunmers is make them not viable for almost anything.

Assuming I made the correct assumptions about how you calculate the power of racial passives that boost mutually exclusive resources, Robustness should grant either 150 magicka or stamina recovery depending on which resource is higher. We already have two abilities that people rely on extensively to help with sustain that work like this (i.e. Shards and Orbs). Not to mention, the new Altmer Spellcharge passive works exactly like that:

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Spellcharge: 9% Magicka Recovery → Spell Recharge: Restore 575 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time.

This change should resolve the sustain issue for both magicka and stamina Khajiit builds and prevent the bizarre situation when Elsweyr drops and finding a Khajiit player character in there is as difficult as finding a unicorn in real life... Sorry ice cream cone unicorns, but you don't count.

azurrei

More feedback to come but hot non-combat topic...

Wood Elf - unacceptable change to the stealthy passive. Wood Elves in lore (in MANY high fantasy games, actually) are sneaky and nimble. Taking away reduced stealth detection radius and replacing it with a meaningless stealth detection ability is highway robbery. Please don't make a change like that for players who love having a non-cat person option for thievery...just for the sake of making racial passives "different." Give the Khajiit 5 meters to make them "unique," that's fine. But let Bosmer keep the 3 meters of reduced stealth radius (inferior to Khajiit)and either keep the speed after dodge roll (meh...) or add something more unique/useful, like flat out 3% movement speed.

Savos_Saren

SkysOutThizeOut wrote: »

Everyone has less health and less max stats. Not just one race. It’s okay because everyone is reduced.

@SkysOutThizeOut

Have you tried your hybrid build since the update?

Do you feel that a hybrid Dunmer DK is equally as powerful at an Altmer MagSorc?

GawdSB

Congrats you made Dark Elf as generic a class as it can get. Every other class gets something unique and Dark Elfs get nothing.

Silver_Strider

IronWooshu wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

The Nord Ultimate passive doesn't put them BiS and is not that good as it sound, Imperials block passive doesn't put them BiS, their flat stats may put Imperial BiS but I highly doubt the tank meta changes for Argonians.. what race are you worried about that removes Argonian from the conversation? Redguard may take a run for BiS tank with weapon ability cost reduction and stam return but other than Redguard or Imperial I don't see them really moving Argonian much.

Nord isn't even in the conversation unless they change his passive to short cooldown and generate while in combat and not when taking damage.

You can deny the Nord Ultimate Regen passive as negligible but the fact is that it's not. Extra Ultimate regen for doing nothing but taking damage, which you will take on any role but especially on Tanks, on top of the higher stat total + a slightly weaker form of Major Resistances just pushes Nord to be a real contender for BiS tanks since it offers more benefits for that role than Argonians.

Honestly, I could give 0 ****s about Tanks or Healers because any race can succeed in those roles but I do care that Argonians received nothing but nerfs without any consideration for its overall performance is my problem. Our Tank potential took a massive hit with the complete removal of Healing Received, our Healing potency got lowered, our DPS got lowered as a result of our sustain being nerfed and our PvP performance took a hit from all that on top of the removal of poison status immunity.

We're worse than we've ever been in practically every way with nothing to fall back on now. To see all that and continue to say were fine is nothing but jaded ignorance.

Kurat

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

IronWooshu wrote: »

Kurat wrote: »

Argonian nerf was needed but this is a bit too harsh. For what is this race intended to use now? There are better tank and healer options now and every other race has passives to increase dps. Why Argonian has to be the weakest dps race?
It only got 1k magica while all other races got 1.5-2k resource or wep/spell dmg buff or both. How is this balance? People say you still got potions but what good are they if I hit like a wet noodle.
I dont see any reason to use Argonians anymore other than for RP.
I thought all this racial rework was supposed bring more balance and make everyone more viable for different builds. I agree that this potion thing needed nerfing but people may wanna play Argonian not only as tanks. Give them at least 2k magica or spell dmg like other races. If people cant stand them potions then remove them completely and give some sustain other ways. Some cost reduction or fixed value.

from my experience on PTS, Argonian doesn't feel any different from live, sure they don't heal as much from the potion passive but they will still be BiS tanks and the 3% magicka really didn't help you in damage as much as you think.

also from my understanding healing received is heals done from another player on you and doesn't count for your own heals to yourself, I believe to amplify heals on yourself you want healing done and healing taken, corect me if I am wrong here but playing as the Argonian I didn't feel like I had any less survival.

It used be healing done and healing taken. Now it's only healing done which means any heals on anyone that are casted by you, so heals from others are now weaker. The passive is now meaningless for a tank.


Look at meaningful advantages that races offer for a tank and then decide if Argonian is that good:

- Argonian offers 2k stats, 80 magicka restore per second and 80 stamina restore per second.

- Nord offers 2,5k stats and 5 ultigen per 10 seconds

- Imperial offers 4k stats and 5% block and bash cost reduction

- Redguard offers 2k stats, 190 stamina restore per second and 8% cost reduction for weapon abilities (including magicka abilities such as blockade of storms).

- Breton offers 2k stats, 100 magicka recovery and 7% cost reduction on magicka abilities (might come very handy on DKs which have high magicka consumption)

I don't see how are Argonians BiS for a tank.

Nothing changed with them except for a reduction in potion passive which was needed and the loss of healing received which can easily be obtained thru CP.

The Nord ultimate gen passive is not good unless they change it to in combat instead of taking damage.

Other tanks can put CP into Healing received too and the potion passive isn't required to be a Tank, it just makes Tanking easier to do. Any race can effectively Tank, Argonian just has a lot more room for error correction than other races, which is niche at best and hardly justification to say Argonian is still BiS Tanks.

The Nord Ultimate passive doesn't put them BiS and is not that good as it sound, Imperials block passive doesn't put them BiS, their flat stats may put Imperial BiS but I highly doubt the tank meta changes for Argonians.. what race are you worried about that removes Argonian from the conversation? Redguard may take a run for BiS tank with weapon ability cost reduction and stam return but other than Redguard or Imperial I don't see them really moving Argonian much.

Nord isn't even in the conversation unless they change his passive to short cooldown and generate while in combat and not when taking damage.

You can deny the Nord Ultimate Regen passive as negligible but the fact is that it's not. Extra Ultimate regen for doing nothing but taking damage, which you will take on any role but especially on Tanks, on top of the higher stat total + a slightly weaker form of Major Resistances just pushes Nord to be a real contender for BiS tanks since it offers more benefits for that role than Argonians.

Honestly, I could give 0 ****s about Tanks or Healers because any race can succeed in those roles but I do care that Argonians received nothing but nerfs without any consideration for its overall performance is my problem. Our Tank potential took a massive hit with the complete removal of Healing Received, our Healing potency got lowered, our DPS got lowered as a result of our sustain being nerfed and our PvP performance took a hit from all that on top of the removal of poison status immunity.

We're worse than we've ever been in practically every way with nothing to fall back on now. To see all that and continue to say were fine is nothing but jaded ignorance.

A lot of people have done all race testing already and gotten somewhat different results for top dps race. But all the test results I have seen have 1 thing common, Argonian is the bottom dps race.
Also Nords seem to be better option for tanking now and Breton/Altmer better for healing. So why are Argonians still even in the game? For RP?

JobooAGS

For an active fight, should active regen be better than passive regen?

Vahrokh

Azyle1 wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Dunmer have lost identity. Why roll a Dunmer, when the actual race does not match ANY of their rich lore?

Fire affinity? Gone.

Magicka affinity only second to Altmer? Gone.


In exchange, we get some "hybrid buff", like anyone in ESO could be even barely competitive with an hybrid build.

Maybe in 2014. In 2019 you are all out magicka / stamina or go home.

Plus, it's not mathematically sound.
Altmer get both more magicka, damage AND regen.

How balanced is that? This is a balance patch, right? Then make it balanced.

Dunmer used to be inferior to Altmer but had a "fire affinity" perk, that with certain builds and gear sets would still make them competitive.

All gone, now.

What's left of Dunmer:

• loss of lore
• loss of flavour
• loss of damage
• worse off in the "magicka builds" food chain than even Kajiit. That just does not sound right! Elves doing worse at magicka than felines? Really?

Go look at the other threads showing their dps is just fine.

You mean, the thread where they took a bad Altmer parse and put it together with an awesomely lucky Dunmer parse?

Aluneth

Imperial is the worst race in the game at the moment, with Nord coming in on a second place.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/455092/raid-buffed-dps-comparison-of-each-race-by-class-tests-graphs-interpretation-and-final-score#latest

Nord and Imperial are somewhat close when it comes to stamina DPS, but Imperial is worse at magicka DPS, Tanking and Healing.