PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

ZoM_Head

susmitds wrote: »

Currently on live, we have a racial balance of magicka races as follows :-

1. Dunmer - Slightly more damage than Altmer but zero sustain.
2. Altmer - Damage + Sustain balanced
3. Breton - Pure sustain

However we see that with the new racial bonuses, this balance is badly affected, with Altmer being the best in most regards than other races, Dunmer being an inferior version of Altmer for magicka PvE DPS in all regards and Breton being in a very balanced but essentially unviable position as it is possible to sustain enough with an Altmer with the exact same gear.

I believe, it is possible to bring the races closer to each other, without affecting the currently stable equivalence of the situation with just a few tweaks.

Dunmer

• Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50% → No changes
• Dynamic: 6% Max Stamina and Magicka → Increases your Max Magicka by 2000. (Instead of 1250M+1250S)
• Resist Flame: 3% Max Magicka and 2079 Flame Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect. (Instead of Health)
• Destructive Ancestry: 7% Flame damage and 2% Frost/Shock Damage → Ruination: Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258.

Reasoning - 2000 magicka will allow Dunmer to retain being the highest damage dealer for magicka races with lowest sustain, having more magicka than Altmer. However, for that reason, Stamina is dropped to 600 (650 less), which along with 254 weapon damage will still allow them to perform competitively for stamina builds, in fact with still great raw damage than Bosmer or Redguard but no longer the highest theoritically.

Altmer

• Increases Experience gain in Destruction Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Generic Experience gain → No changes
• Spellcharge: 9% Magicka Recovery → Spell Recharge: Restore 600 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Ability. This effect can occur once every 6 seconds. Reduces damage taken by 5% while you are using an ability with a cast or channel time. (Slight increase in value)
• Gift of Magnus: 10% Max Magicka → Syrabane’s Boon: Increases your Max Magicka by 1750. (Slight drop in resource values)
• Elemental Talent: 4% Fire/Shock/Ice damage → Increases your Spell Damage by 258.

Reasoning - Altmer is mathematical superior to every magicka oriented race for overall performance. This slight adjustment of -250 Magicka with slight increase in sustain values will bring them closer to the rest, meaning they are still the most balanced race from a magicka DPS perspective, just not superior to other races both in terms of raw damage potential and sustain.

Breton

• Increases Experience gain in Light Armor Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Alliance Point gain → No changes
• Gift of Magnus: 10% Max Magicka → Increases your Max Magicka by 2000.
• Spell Resistance: 3960 Spell Resistance → Gain 2310 Spell Resistance and 100 Magicka Recovery.
• Magicka Mastery: 3% Magicka Cost Reduction → Reduces the Magicka cost of your abilities by 7%.

Reasoning - No change for them as they are the most balanced magicka oriented race from a theorycrafting standpoint. The other racial changes will essentially bring Breton closer to the rest.

With these changes, we have a more balanced racial stability scenario, as demonstrated below.


It will keep a reasonable approach to the DPS meta, where none of the race is better than the other, simply different. Also it solves the issue of the Dunmer being very similar to the Khajiit bonus-wise while retaining their hybrid essence intact.
@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RobGarrett

In this case with such lower focus on Stamina, what is the point of 15% experience boost to dual wield abilities?

Clearly this race is focused on magicka based skills and abilities, so why have dual wield at all????

Why on earth would a new Dunmer character slot DW to "gain experience", when in the end the staves are going to be the main choice with so little focus on stamina and more on magicka?

Altmer and Bretons get a boost in skills that they actually use in the beginning all the way to end game, which makes sense. I doubt anyone with the minimum common sense would slot DW from the start and use DW with light armour and magicka skills in AvA or even PvE end game, heck even solo playing correct?

That 15% boost to DW should be completely overhauled to something useful, or change all the passive to suit DW and "Max Magicka/ Max Stamina whichever is highest" to make more sense and actual use of this boost.

amir412

Bring back max stats % modifiers to not limit us with builds. Everything other than that is fine, and i like the changes.

Beardimus

Dunmer need something. 3% magika lost for 600 health

Give us a few % cost reduction or regen. Or increase the magika passive 50%. Would be enough

ZeroXFF

Khajiit:
Health regen, especially as a static value of 100 is useless. If this stat budget was used for literally any other stat it would be better.

Altmer:
Damage reduction while channeling can only be utilized by one class (templar) in any meaningful way, and even there almost anything else would be better. If you intend to keep this effect, tie it to the same proc as the resource gain, and make it last for the length of the cooldown. This would make it useful for all classes, and also make it something tanks can build around. As it stands, 5% damage reduction on skills that are only used when people don't take damage is kind of pointless.

John_Falstaff

@MLGProPlayer , khajiits - certain subspecies - have strong affinity for magic lore-wise, but regardless of that: are those raid-buffed parses or solo? I don't think there's any chance crit would pull so far ahead without warhorn. Also, there's question of sustain, a parse on 3mil with bi-stat food orbs/shards doesn't tell a thing about balance if then I'd have to swap to regen food (and lose all my advantage in max stats). But I'd be very curious to see those parses.

Faulgor

I made a longer feedback thread in the Combat & Character Mechanics subforum, based on the previous lore for each race.
It also has some great comments, so I'd really appreciate it if you could take a look there:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/454420/lore-review-for-race-changes

Faulgor wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Goals & Process

1. Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.
   • This was one of our more challenging but exciting tasks, as it gave us additional opportunities to work with other teams. We delved deep into our rich and established lore to make bonuses that highlight racial differences. This means that we didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game, as there’s a story to be told with how the races engage with the world around them. Nords are well known for being hardier races who can take a hit, while High Elves are better at wielding magical spells. If we were to balance them to be equal in both, we’d lose the unique identities of these races.

This is a very important consideration, and I'm happy to see it mentioned. As the balance side of the announced changes has already received considerable feedback, I thought the lore would deserve its own thread.

As a basline for comparison, I'd like to use the last 3 mainline TES games - Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. If I had to source every in-game text and dialogue about what a given race is "like", this post would never end. Out of these three games, Morrowind and Oblivion are mostly consistent, whereas there have been some changes for the races in Skyrim. I'll try to keep these outliers in mind. Further, Morrowind and Oblivion still differentiated between males and females in their attribute bonuses, which I'll also consider.

Altmer
Good Attributes: Intelligence
Bad Attributes: Strength, Speed
Skills: Alchemy, Alteration, Conjuration, Enchanting, Destruction, Illusion, Mysticism, Restoration

It is clear that Altmer are focused on magical abilities, as all their skill bonuses are related to magic. They also have active powers that increase their maximum magicka or magicka regeneration. All of this is perfectly reflected in their bonuses of 2000 magicka and 258 spell power. The resource return on using a class ability is a nice touch in reference to their hierarchical class society, also reflected in their "Highborn" power from Skyrim. The stamina return sticks out a bit, but as they don't have an outstanding weakness in Endurance of Willpower (attributes that influenced fatigue/stamina), this is not completely out of line. Overall their bonuses are very fitting with their lore.

Argonian
Good Attributes: Intelligence (f), Agility (m), Speed (m)
Bad Attributes: Willpower (m), Endurance, Personality
Skills: Alchemy, Alteration, Athletics, Blade, Hand to Hand, Illusion, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Mysticism, Restoration, Security (Lockpicking, Pickpocket, Sneak), Spear, Unarmored

Argonians aren't only the most sexually dimorphic species, their skill bonuses have also changed constantly. There is not one single skill they've had a bonus to in all three games. However, they have always retained some kind of non-offensive magical affinity (Illusion, Alteration, Mysticism, Restoration) as well as skills that require a considerable amount of agility and dexterity (Athletics, Lockpicking, Sneak). Both of these are reflected in their best attributes of Intelligence, Agility and Speed. What Argonians have never been prior to ESO are tanky people who can take a beating, in fact having a weakness in Endurance and Willpower, and an Argonian in heavy armor is basically unheard of. The only thing this could reference is the "Histskin" power from Skyrim, which granted massive health recovery once a day. The Resourceful passive is appropriate, given the bonus to Alchemy in Morrowind and Oblivion, and Quick to Mend can be a reference to their Restoration bonus from Skyrim. However, there is nothing that would reflect Argonian's agile nature. I would suggest to change the 1000 health bonus to 1000 stamina instead.
The resistance to disease is fitting, however, it should be noted that Argonians had complete poison immunity in Morrowind and Oblivion, which only got removed in Skyrim.

Bosmer
Good Attribute: Agility, Speed
Bad Attribute: Strength, Willpower, Endurance
Skills: Acrobatics, Alchemy, Alteration, Light Armor, Lockpicking, Marksman (Archery), Pickpocket, Sneak

One of the fastest and most agile races in Tamriel, they also excel in sneaking and ambushed combat. The bonus to stamina and stamina recovery seem perfectly in line with this, as does the new movement speed bonus after a roll dodge. However, stealth detection is not something that would be associated with Bosmer. They should retain their reduced detection radius from the Stealthy passive, even if the stealth bonus damage is to be removed for balance considerations. While they do have a moderate resistance to poison in Skyrim, they are better known for their resistance to disease.

Breton
Good Attributes: Intelligence, Willpower
Bad Attributes: Agility, Endurance, Speed (m), Strength (f)
Skills: Alchemy, Alteration, Conjuration, Illusion, Mysticism, Restoration, Speech

Similarly to Altmer, a race excelling in magic - however, not offensively as they've never had a bonus to Destruction magic. Instead, they have higher Willpower than the elves, granting them better magicka recovery. Both these things are perfectly reflected in their 7% cost reduction and 100 magicka recovery bonuses. They also have the highest resistance to magic of all races, so their bonus to spell resistance is appropriate.

Dunmer
Good Attributes: Speed
Bad Attributes: Willpower, Endurance (f), Personality (m)
Skills: Alchemy, Alteration, Athletics, Blade (Long Blade, Short Blade), Blunt, Destruction, Illusion, Light Armor, Marksman, Mysticism, Sneak

Dunmer are a jack of all offensive trades, mainly Destruction magic, bladed weapons and bows. They had a bit of an identity crisis with the removal of Mysticism in Skyrim, which rolled their non-offensive magical abilities into Alchemy, Alteration and Illusion, but it's save to say Mysticism would still be their best fit. They do not excel in magic to the degree Altmer or Bretons do, in fact having low Willpower and thus bad magicka recovery. The bonuses to weapon and spell damage as well as 1250 magicka and stamina seem fitting for the Dunmer's dual nature (an option would be to change weapon and spell damage to penetration instead - this would reflect their offensive nature more as it can't be utilized for healing, and give Dunmer something unique). However, the 600 bonus to health is entirely misplaced. I'd recommend removing the health bonus, and instead boosting their magicka further, reflecting their affinity for Mysticism in some way. Their best attribute, Speed, is also entirely absent from their passives. As the fastest race besides Bosmer, they absolutely should have something in this regard - possibly the sprinting bonus currently occupied by Orcs (more on that below). The resistance to fire and burning is obviously perfect.

Imperial
Good Attributes: Personality
Bad Attributes: Agility, Willpower (m), Speed (f)
Skills: Blade (Long Blade), Block, Blunt, Destruction, Hand-to-Hand, Light Armor, Heavy Armor, Mercantile, One-Handed, Restoration, Speechcraft

Imperials are rely a lot on interpersonal skills like Mercantile and Speechcraft (which is possibly missing from Skyrim due to the setting of the Stormcloak Rebellion?). Their combat of choice is physical one-handed with any armor. Their general playstyle is difficult to reflect in ESO, and although the support role of a tank is not too far off, they lack something uniqe in this area. As several races have received an existing item set bonus as a racial bonus in some form, I think a good representation of Imperial's interpersonal skills might be the buff time increase of the Jorvuld's Guidance set, e.g. +20% to all Minor/Major buff times. The block cost reduction certainly does very little, even for tanks. The health gain from the Red Diamond passive is unprecedented, but not too strange - the worst thing that can be said about it is that it is too weak.

Khajiit
Good Attributes: Agility
Bad Attributes: Willpower, Strength (f), Endurance (m)
Skills: Alchemy, Acrobatics, Archery, Athletics, Blade (Short Blade, One-Handed), Hand-to-Hand, Light Armor, Security (Lockpicking, Pickpocket), Sneak

Khajiit are, next to Bosmer and (male) Argonians, the most agile race in Tamriel, with a strong focus on sneaking, stealing and one-handed bladed weapons. All of this is well represented in their bonus to critical hits as well as stamina bonus. Their bonuses to health, magicka and associated recoveries feel unprecedented from a lore perspective, although I can see them as viable efforts to differentiate Khajiit from Bosmer. They are also a good reflection of the Khajiit's morphological variance, with sturdy Cathay-raht and magically gifted Alfiq, even though these subraces are not playable.
However, if there is one race that should have better stealth detection, in the new race changes added to Bosmer, it should be the Khajiit. Their Night Eye ability has always granted them better vision than any other race. My suggestion is to give Khajiit 3m increased detection radius and 3m reduced detection in stealth, and give Bosmer the superior stealth at 5m reduced detection in stealth.

Nord
Good Attributes: Strength, Willpower (f), Endurance (m)
Bad Attributes: Intelligence, Agility, Personality
Skills: Armorer (Smithing), Axe, Blade (Long Blade), Block, Blunt, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, One-Handed, Two-Handed, Restoration, Spear, Speech

Nords are, next to (male) Redguards, the strongest race in Tamriel, adept with all kinds of weapons and armor for physical combat. However, in ESO, they are relegated entirely to a defensive tank race. While they are quite enduring and steadfast, they are outmatched in this regard by Orcs, and their offensive capabilities (again, as the strongest of all races) are mostly neglected, outside a moderate 1500 stamina bonus. Of course, it should be noted that Nord, Orcs and Redguards aren't that well differentiated in previous games, with all of them being combat-oriented enduring races, compared to more agile or faster ones like Bosmer, Dunmer and Khajiit. It stands to reason that one of them could excel in defense, one in offense, and one in recovery. For that reason, I think it would be best to tweak the new Stalwart passive so that it grants 5 Ultimate every 10 seconds while in combat, not just when taking damage. This would allow for a more offensive use of Nords in line with their brutal heritage, and not upset their current standing as tanks. The resistance to cold and chilled is obviously perfect.

Orc
Good Attributes: Strength, Willpower, Endurance
Bad Attributes: Agility, Speed, Personality
Skills: Armorer (Smithing), Axe, Block, Blunt (One-Handed, Two-Handed), Enchanting, Hand-to-Hand, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor

Orcs are gifted craftsmen, and focus on blunted weapons and heavier armor in combat. They combine strength and endurance like no other race in Tamriel. In ESO however, their bonuses don't reflect that playstyle - but we will concede that from the aforementioned triad of Nord, Orcs and Redguards, they are supposed to be the most aggressive in this game. Their bonus to weapon power is thus not unwarranted. However, their measly bonus of 500 health and stamina is simply too low with respect to their lore as sturdy warriors, as well as in relation to other races' bonuses in ESO. The developer comment mentioned that the defensive capabilities were rolled back in favor of more aggression, but I don't think a good balance have been found here, as other races manage to combine offense and defense or recovery as well. That Khajiit would end up with more health and stamina than Orcs when they also have a massive crit bonus can't be justified from the perspective of the lore. Thus, the health and stamina bonus should at least be increased to 1000.
Another big issue with Orcs is their bonus to sprint speed, namely that they shouldn't have had it to begin with. Canonically, Orcs are the slowest race in Tamriel. It is one thing to bend racial bonuses a little, or to add something they didn't have before. It is something else entirely to turn a previous outstanding weakness into an advantage. You wouldn't turn Altmer into the strongest race, or Redguard into the most magically gifted. Thus, Orcs should lose this bonus (possibly granting it to Dunmer who are currently lacking in uniqueness) in turn for gaining appropriate health and stamina, as well as improving their unique resource return from Unflinching a bit (mainly the health gain).

Redguard
Good Attributes: Strength (m), Endurance
Bad Attributes: Intelligence, Willpower, Personality (m)
Skills: Alteration, Archery, Athletics, Axe, Blade, Block, Destruction, Blunt, Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, Mercantile, One-Handed, Smithing

Similar to Nords, they have occupied every physical combat niche at least once throughout the games, as they are comparably gifted warriors. Like Orcs they excel in Endurance, which is reflected in ESO with their superior Stamina and Stamina recovery. The reduced weapon ability cost reduction represents their affinity to all kinds of weapons really well, although it curiously also boosts destruction and restoration staffs. There could be an argument for giving them more direct offensive power as well, as they are just as strong as Orcs. However, as they already gain 2000 max stamina, this seems to be well represented.

Summary
Argonian: Remove 1000 health bonus for 1000 stamina; Possibly exchange disease for poison resistance
Bosmer: Remove 3m Stealth detection radius for 5m reduced detection radius; Possibly exchange poison resistance for disease resistance
Dunmer: Remove 600 health bonus for 500 magicka, change 258 weapon and spell power to 2974 weapon and spell penetration, add sprint speed bonus and sprint cost reduction from Orc's Swift Warrior
Imperial: Remove block and bash cost from Red Diamond for +20% duration to all Minor/Major buffs
Khajiit: Reduce 5m reduced detection radius to 3m, add 3m Stealth detection radius
Nord: Change Stalwart's Ultimate gain from when hit to when in combat, gain 5 ultimate every 10 seconds
Orc: Increase 500 health and stamina bonus to 1000 health and stamina, remove sprint speed bonus and sprint cost reduction, improve health gain from Unflinching

Obviously, there'd have to be some balancing in the actual magnitudes of these changes. The primary objective was to keep the bonuses more in line with established lore while adding unique bonuses for every race and not upsetting current builds too much.

Summary
Argonian: Remove 1000 health bonus for 1000 stamina; Possibly exchange disease for poison resistance
Bosmer: Remove 3m Stealth detection radius for 5m reduced detection radius; Possibly exchange poison resistance for disease resistance
Dunmer: Remove 600 health bonus for 500 magicka, change 258 weapon and spell power to 2974 weapon and spell penetration, add sprint speed bonus and sprint cost reduction from Orc's Swift Warrior
Imperial: Remove block and bash cost from Red Diamond for +20% duration to all Minor/Major buffs
Khajiit: Reduce 5m reduced detection radius to 3m, add 3m Stealth detection radius
Nord: Change Stalwart's Ultimate gain from when hit to when in combat, gain 5 ultimate every 10 seconds
Orc: Increase 500 health and stamina bonus to 1000 health and stamina, remove sprint speed bonus and sprint cost reduction, improve health gain from Unflinching

Lord_Eomer

CP5 wrote: »

Just to chime in, on paper I like the race changes overall and as my main is a khajiit I had to check to see what changed between pts and live.

The changes are:
+765 health and magicka
+825 stamina
+58 health regen
+82 magicka regen
-1 stamina regen
+8% crit rate

So for those worried that they lost sustain, not really no, I run much higher regen than most dps would and seeing a loss of 1 regen is nothing to worry about.

Mostly

Narvuntien wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

I liked the changes overall but i have a few suggestions about them

Here is my version of the a few passives.

Wood Elf

Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. Reduces the cost of roll dodge by 20%.

Dark Elf

Resist Flame>Venomous Fire: When you apply burning or poison status effect to a target your next single target direct damage ability will cost no stamina or magicka. Increases your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.

Imperial

Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Break Free by 10%

I see we are on the same kind of lines along dumner and status effects.

Roll dodge cost reduction is good because of how it interacts with the new passive but I still want more damage out of bosmer passives.

Ooh I like the break free cost reduction for imperials.... it's also super flavourful if you think about it imperials famous for breaking free of slavery.

Roll dodge cost decrease change is too much OP and not required

Argonion are fine currently no further buff, they were OP admit it.

Lord_Eomer

Beardimus wrote: »

Dunmer need something. 3% magika lost for 600 health

Give us a few % cost reduction or regen. Or increase the magika passive 50%. Would be enough

Dunmer should not have cost reduction or they become best race for any Magicka role.

Lord_Eomer

Developers should take right descion for Racial passives balances instead of taking some players moaning.

Players want their favourite race to get all flavours and as a complete package which shall not be the case.

Some Races needs buff that does not include Dunmer, Altmers, Bretons, Nords, Argonians, Redguards, Orc and Bosmers.

Khajit and Imperial race needs some kind of buff,

Khajit: Healthy recovery is useless instead buff Mag and Stam recovery

Imperial: Becomes PVE tank race only? We shall no longer DPS on this race?

Wuuffyy

First, was was orc not buffed to match Altmer or close to (1250). Why does the dunmer (hybrid) have the most raw damage for stamina builds. Why did you take argonians passive recovery and turn it into only done instead of something 3% given 3% taken and how did their 9% health become 1k health and imperial become 2k health? Why are woodelves and kats losing their stealth bonuses instead of just gaining other smaller bonuses with them.

WHY JUST ONE TOKEN... TFHIWWYA!!!!!!!!!!!!

Toc de Malsvi

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@MLGProPlayer , khajiits - certain subspecies - have strong affinity for magic lore-wise, but regardless of that: are those raid-buffed parses or solo? I don't think there's any chance crit would pull so far ahead without warhorn. Also, there's question of sustain, a parse on 3mil with bi-stat food orbs/shards doesn't tell a thing about balance if then I'd have to swap to regen food (and lose all my advantage in max stats). But I'd be very curious to see those parses.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c-HGXW_B7EE

John_Falstaff

@Toc de Malsvi , thank you. So no warhorn, but Vulnerability, off-balance, prayer, external Drain and orbs.

It is impressive, but I'm not sure if it's sustainable - even with obs, he was dry by the end. Pity there was no Metrics window in the end to show the regen difference.

gmap516

I actually really like the new racial changes and I applaud the balance team and whoever else is in charge of these decisions for giving it a fairly good first pass.

My recommendation/suggestion is for a small tweak to Dunmer. In my opinion, they should get a small increase to their weapon/spell damage bonus to make up for their lack of a sustain bonus. This will bring them closer in line with their current place on live: better for damage if sustain isn't a concern.


I won't claim to be a balance expert so I won't have a solid numbers suggestion, but I think this is a fair approach. Maybe remove the health bonus as it stands in the current pass to allow for the increase to the damage bonus.

This will allow the new "meta" Magicka races to fill niches while not being as impactful as they are on live.

Altmer for well-balanced between sustain and damage

Breton for sustain focus

Dunmer for raw damage focus

Khajiit for crit damage focus


Thanks for listening!

MLGProPlayer

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Toc de Malsvi , thank you. So no warhorn, but Vulnerability, off-balance, prayer, external Drain and orbs.

It is impressive, but I'm not sure if it's sustainable - even with obs, he was dry by the end. Pity there was no Metrics window in the end to show the regen difference.

CM links are in the description. Altmer and Khajiit are about the same for sustain.

actosh

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

I just have Feedback for Nord and Imperial from a Tank Point of View.

Nord: Will be the Meta and the only Race that can increase a Grp´s dps via more Horns. Sure its maybe 1 or 2 additional Horns but that add up and will make Nords mandatory for score runs and such. Its a bit like DK & Engulfing. E
Either give all the same option if you want to increase dps in a way, or just get rid of it, and add for Nord 258 Weapdmg, since they are also pretty good Fighters.

Imperial: U wanted to move away from % based values, and yet you added it for block/bash cost reduction.
Better go with hard values, like a Glyph, wouldnt be such a big buff, but at least something to consider.
Also the Stat values should be increased a bit (maybe by 500-1k).
Overall Imperial should get something special out of Red Diamond that isnt limiting them to just 1 Role.

One suggestion was to make it a "restore all 3 rssources by 450 each 6 secs when hit" would be unique as well but again only pushing you further towards tanking. Just come up with something different and get rid of the %based values, since they have almost 0 effect on the standart tank build.

Thx

frozzzen101

Argonians have been shafted horribly and they need some love. It's not only that they received nerfs all across the board but also other races have been buffed leaving gap even wider. Currently on live Argonians are best for tanks in pve
and best for brawler style pvp builds. They are decent healers and garbage dds. But in next patch they will be bad for all roles, pvp and pve.

Now with introduction to ultigen passive to Nords they instantly became best race for pve tanking because no other race provides offensive potential to the group (higher warhorn uptime) and Nord tanking passives aren't shaby either. To
be honest, even if Argonians would be left in their live state Nord would instantly take over as tank, no questions asked. Seeing how every tank goes full selfless and focuses on buffing group Argonian sustain is at best training wheels, and it's not something that can be changed on a whim like Alkosh for Plague Doctor set. Furthermore, pve tanking on Argonian got additional nerf with flat increase in 1000 mag because you have to invest more points into stamina to keep 51/49% split between stam and mag for shards and orb synergies, getting their hp even lower than intended most likely. And 9% to 1000 flat bonus which is consistent across the board. For healers, Argonian has no chance comparing to new updated Breton, it simply doesn't, and for dds it's complete joke.
For pvp, Argonians have traditionaly been brawler style race that thrived on outhealing and outsustaining others and in many cases were perfect 1vX class for both stam and mag. They didn't have offensive burst like other races but their stats made them perfect and yes, overperforming in that role. Nerf was needed, but I think this balancing went overboard, took decent race and made them absolute rock bottom for anything except cheesing potion passive jewelry.

So my proposed changes would be following - keep Argonians good at what they are - healing, susutaining and being tanky in whatever role they take, be it pve tank, healer or dd, or pvp tank, healer or dd. What they lack in offense and group support they make up for being tanky fellas.

Argonian passives:

PTS:
Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed
Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 4%

Proposed:
Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed --- no changes
Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect. --- no changes
Resourceful: Increases your Max Health by 1000. Restore 2160 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion and restores additional 2160 Health, Magicka, and Stamina over 45 seconds
Life Mender: Gain 3% Healing Done and Received

Result would be race with slightly more direction than being okayish healer race. They would still retain relevancy in same roles people are picking them in live but adjusted from their OP status.
1000 magicka traded for 1000 health (equal trade in terms of set bonuses). Potion passive getting less upfront resource restore making it less abused with 3 x potion glyph cd jewelry but slightly higher resource return overtime and 45 sec recovery duration in order to standardize it with potion cooldown (depends on situation can be seen as buff or nerf, but far cry from its live overpowered state).
Added 3% Healing Recieved to life Mender passive but taken 1% healing done (in terms of set bonus efficiency it's 0.25% increase from 6.5 bonuses that racial passives are providing).

No one would lose much in this scenario but race would have clear direction without some magicka sprinkled in for whatever reason and massive loss on selfhealing from last passive.
PvE healers are using 3 x tristat glyphs for additional bulk because content new requires them to do so due to hazards to themselves in newer content selfhealing is good (AS kiters, CR crushing kiters and shard collectors or BRP in general).
PvE tanks would greatly benefit from removal of magicka and added hp as well as selfhealing. Still for minmaxed build Nord is mandatory, but people that built their Argonian tanks over last year and half aren't going to be left in gutter completely. You need tanks in your dungeon queues and you need them desperately.
PvP healers are usually built very durable so loss of magicka wouldn't hurt them much and selfhealing is always good.
PvE dds would be crap but at least there would be a consistent theme of being tanky with more selfheals and hp rather than mag being thrown in mix which stamdd wouldn't benefit anyway.
PvP dds would lose some burst as mag, lose some cheesing ability with pot cd passive (issue that brought Argonian into nerf state in the first place) and stam would get extra hp which is welcome to retain "Argonains are resilient creatures" theme.

It's merely adjustment to PTS Argonian passives with an increase in 0.25 to 6.5 item set bonuses that racials provide because I honestly believe that you went overboard with nerfs while buffing other races. Please don't let Argonian be all over the place, give them consistent theme and purpose instead of being reduced to nothing more than alligator shoes. I believe these changes would take away from Argonians current overpowered status while being more friendly to players who have taken race and build their characters around it as pve tanks or pvp brawler style while having minimal downsides to other specs you might want to use your Argonian for.

IronWooshu

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Developers should take right descion for Racial passives balances instead of taking some players moaning.

Players want their favourite race to get all flavours and as a complete package which shall not be the case.

Some Races needs buff that does not include Dunmer, Altmers, Bretons, Nords, Argonians, Redguards, Orc and Bosmers.

Khajit and Imperial race needs some kind of buff,

Khajit: Healthy recovery is useless instead buff Mag and Stam recovery

Imperial: Becomes PVE tank race only? We shall no longer DPS on this race?

and you can DPS on Nord?

John_Falstaff

@MLGProPlayer , thanks for pointing at them, I checked out now. Actually, from what I see, difference is hefty. While both are unsustainable with those parses, khajiit is sitting at -300 magicka/s (deficit of 600 regen), altmer is at -200 (400 regen). 200 regen is hefty, it's almost a full glyph with bonuses applied. If khajiit would be able to sustain in real situation without glyph, then yes, khajiit is stronger than altmer, but I suspect that all things equal, khajiit may have to trade their damage away by running Witchmother's. But we'll see.

Silver_Strider

frozzzen101 wrote: »

Argonians have been shafted horribly and they need some love. It's not only that they received nerfs all across the board but also other races have been buffed leaving gap even wider. Currently on live Argonians are best for tanks in pve
and best for brawler style pvp builds. They are decent healers and garbage dds. But in next patch they will be bad for all roles, pvp and pve.

Now with introduction to ultigen passive to Nords they instantly became best race for pve tanking because no other race provides offensive potential to the group (higher warhorn uptime) and Nord tanking passives aren't shaby either. To
be honest, even if Argonians would be left in their live state Nord would instantly take over as tank, no questions asked. Seeing how every tank goes full selfless and focuses on buffing group Argonian sustain is at best training wheels, and it's not something that can be changed on a whim like Alkosh for Plague Doctor set. Furthermore, pve tanking on Argonian got additional nerf with flat increase in 1000 mag because you have to invest more points into stamina to keep 51/49% split between stam and mag for shards and orb synergies, getting their hp even lower than intended most likely. And 9% to 1000 flat bonus which is consistent across the board. For healers, Argonian has no chance comparing to new updated Breton, it simply doesn't, and for dds it's complete joke.
For pvp, Argonians have traditionaly been brawler style race that thrived on outhealing and outsustaining others and in many cases were perfect 1vX class for both stam and mag. They didn't have offensive burst like other races but their stats made them perfect and yes, overperforming in that role. Nerf was needed, but I think this balancing went overboard, took decent race and made them absolute rock bottom for anything except cheesing potion passive jewelry.

So my proposed changes would be following - keep Argonians good at what they are - healing, susutaining and being tanky in whatever role they take, be it pve tank, healer or dd, or pvp tank, healer or dd. What they lack in offense and group support they make up for being tanky fellas.

Argonian passives:

PTS:
Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed
Resourceful: Increases your Max Magicka by 1000. Restore 3600 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion.
Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.
Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 4%

Proposed:
Increases experience gain in Resto Staff Skill Line by 15%, extra 50% Swimming Speed --- no changes
Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Diseased status effect. --- no changes
Resourceful: Increases your Max Health by 1000. Restore 2160 Health, Magicka, and Stamina when you drink a potion and restores additional 2160 Health, Magicka, and Stamina over 45 seconds
Life Mender: Gain 3% Healing Done and Received

Result would be race with slightly more direction than being okayish healer race. They would still retain relevancy in same roles people are picking them in live but adjusted from their OP status.
1000 magicka traded for 1000 health (equal trade in terms of set bonuses). Potion passive getting less upfront resource restore making it less abused with 3 x potion glyph cd jewelry but slightly higher resource return overtime and 45 sec recovery duration in order to standardize it with potion cooldown (depends on situation can be seen as buff or nerf, but far cry from its live overpowered state).
Added 3% Healing Recieved to life Mender passive but taken 1% healing done (in terms of set bonus efficiency it's 0.25% increase from 6.5 bonuses that racial passives are providing).

No one would lose much in this scenario but race would have clear direction without some magicka sprinkled in for whatever reason and massive loss on selfhealing from last passive.
PvE healers are using 3 x tristat glyphs for additional bulk because content new requires them to do so due to hazards to themselves in newer content selfhealing is good (AS kiters, CR crushing kiters and shard collectors or BRP in general).
PvE tanks would greatly benefit from removal of magicka and added hp as well as selfhealing. Still for minmaxed build Nord is mandatory, but people that built their Argonian tanks over last year and half aren't going to be left in gutter completely. You need tanks in your dungeon queues and you need them desperately.
PvP healers are usually built very durable so loss of magicka wouldn't hurt them much and selfhealing is always good.
PvE dds would be crap but at least there would be a consistent theme of being tanky with more selfheals and hp rather than mag being thrown in mix which stamdd wouldn't benefit anyway.
PvP dds would lose some burst as mag, lose some cheesing ability with pot cd passive (issue that brought Argonian into nerf state in the first place) and stam would get extra hp which is welcome to retain "Argonains are resilient creatures" theme.

It's merely adjustment to PTS Argonian passives with an increase in 0.25 to 6.5 item set bonuses that racials provide because I honestly believe that you went overboard with nerfs while buffing other races. Please don't let Argonian be all over the place, give them consistent theme and purpose instead of being reduced to nothing more than alligator shoes. I believe these changes would take away from Argonians current overpowered status while being more friendly to players who have taken race and build their characters around it as pve tanks or pvp brawler style while having minimal downsides to other specs you might want to use your Argonian for.

I'd rather they removed the potion buff entirely than go thru with your suggestion because they're absolute trash and would make Argonians even worse than what they are on PTS. You've nerfed Argonian Healers even more by removing the 1k magic and 1% healing done, while also pretty much changing nothing at all that would honestly help Argonian Tanks because the potion passive is still training wheels for people that can't sustain and nothing more. If 2k Health was all that was needed to be a good Tank, Imperial would be in a better spot because it has 2k Health + Stamina and while Red Diamond is even more trash tier than ever, the 3% healing received is negligible as well.

I'd rather they make Resourceful a 750 Magic/Stamina buff and added an extra 100 Weapon/Spell Damage to the Life Mender passive so that way, Tanks don't have to struggle getting more Stamina than Magic, and the extra Weapon/Spell Damage would boost up Healing for Healers/Tanks/DPS specs while also giving Argonian DPS a much needed boost without being overpowered.

MLGProPlayer

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@MLGProPlayer , thanks for pointing at them, I checked out now. Actually, from what I see, difference is hefty. While both are unsustainable with those parses, khajiit is sitting at -300 magicka/s (deficit of 600 regen), altmer is at -200 (400 regen). 200 regen is hefty, it's almost a full glyph with bonuses applied. If khajiit would be able to sustain in real situation without glyph, then yes, khajiit is stronger than altmer, but I suspect that all things equal, khajiit may have to trade their damage away by running Witchmother's. But we'll see.

The difference between Altmer and Khajiit is 89 recovery. That's literally nothing. That's roughly what the difference between Altmer and Dunmer is on live right now.

John_Falstaff

@MLGProPlayer , I'm looking at the parses - not sure how to explain the difference on the metrics. Fact is, altmer has 200 regen to spare on those particular parses, not sure why and not sure if it's tradable for damage. But there's that.

Arciris

Trial Meta:
2 Nord Tanks
2 Nord healers
> To increase Major Force uptime.
With higher Major Force uptime:
8 Khajiit DD, most likely 8 Khajiit Magblade (maybe with some Stamblades in some encounters)

Damage is all that matters, Nord buff damage = no choice.
Since DPS is all people usually see, Khajiit - who are in a perfectly balanced spot with these changes- will be nerfed because of the Nord passive.

Please take a look at the Ulti gen Nord passive @ZOS_Gilliam I believe it has the potential to remove the little diversity left in Trial Meta

frozzzen101

Silver_Strider wrote: »

I'd rather they removed the potion buff entirely than go thru with your suggestion because they're absolute trash and would make Argonians even worse than what they are on PTS. You've nerfed Argonian Healers even more by removing the 1k magic and 1% healing done, while also pretty much changing nothing at all that would honestly help Argonian Tanks because the potion passive is still training wheels for people that can't sustain and nothing more. If 2k Health was all that was needed to be a good Tank, Imperial would be in a better spot because it has 2k Health + Stamina and while Red Diamond is even more trash tier than ever, the 3% healing received is negligible as well.

I'd rather they make Resourceful a 750 Magic/Stamina buff and added an extra 100 Weapon/Spell Damage to the Life Mender passive so that way, Tanks don't have to struggle getting more Stamina than Magic, and the extra Weapon/Spell Damage would boost up Healing for Healers/Tanks/DPS specs while also giving Argonian DPS a much needed boost without being overpowered.

Agree to disagree etc. Like I wrote, potion cooldown can be seen as buff or nerf. In many cases for pve tanking and healing it will be buff because often additonal resources from Resourceful passive can go to waste because tanks have low stam/mag pools and lingering restore would help, especially since you can keep block and still get stam via passive. Healers builds aren't nerfed hard because as I said, people are usually using 3 x triglyphs and you can just drop two and lose only 1% healing done 1k stam due to switching glyphs around. You still want selfhealing in situations I described like kiters in last two trials which put you in danger on consistent basis.

And I'll be frank, I'd rather sac some of Argonian healing power to get them in more beneficial spot in tanking and pvp - two primary reasons to roll lizards in these days. Amount of people rolling Argonian DK in pug tanking is simply too great to be ignored, and people have racechanged to Argonian for pvp purposes to give themselves extra self sufficiency for 1vX. Lose little of their healing power and burst on mag classes in pvp (you don't pick lizards for burst) to put them in better spot for pve tanking and pvp durability for both mag and stam spec which people used their lizards for? Sure sign me up. Some might disagree.

I do like adding weapon/spell damage to life mender in order to make it more beneficial to dds and indirectly buffing healing. That's a good one, but I'd rather keep Argonian good for roles they are being used for than inventing lizard dds.

<--- lizard pve magplar, pvp healer, pve healer, dk and warden tank, warden pvp and stamdd

Arseny

Bowser wrote: »

I'd love to see weapon and spell damage instead of healing done on the Argonian passive, since weapon and spell damage affect healing done AND give Argonians a damage option.

^This is the best decision, it allows people who play Argonians, not to only be tanks or healers, but also to be competitive DD.
My main character is Argonian Stamina DD, and it is pretty hard to have a good DPS in any serious veteran content.

IronWooshu

Arciris wrote: »

Trial Meta:
2 Nord Tanks
2 Nord healers
> To increase Major Force uptime.
With higher Major Force uptime:
8 Khajiit DD, most likely 8 Khajiit Magblade (maybe with some Stamblades in some encounters)

Damage is all that matters, Nord buff damage = no choice.
Since DPS is all people usually see, Khajiit - who are in a perfectly balanced spot with these changes- will be nerfed because of the Nord passive.

Please take a look at the Ulti gen Nord passive @ZOS_Gilliam I believe it has the potential to remove the little diversity left in Trial Meta

let me guess.....

You play an Imperial?

Nords have never been best at anything. We are still reduced to one role but now we have some time to shine and you want it done away with.

SMH

MrCray78

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_GinaBruno you have changed race liabilities to balance everything and make all races playable.
It's a fail.
The only playable races are Nordic,Khajiit,High Elf,Redguard,Breton.
RIP DK Dark Elf,Argonian.

Lord_Eomer

IronWooshu wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Developers should take right descion for Racial passives balances instead of taking some players moaning.

Players want their favourite race to get all flavours and as a complete package which shall not be the case.

Some Races needs buff that does not include Dunmer, Altmers, Bretons, Nords, Argonians, Redguards, Orc and Bosmers.

Khajit and Imperial race needs some kind of buff,

Khajit: Healthy recovery is useless instead buff Mag and Stam recovery

Imperial: Becomes PVE tank race only? We shall no longer DPS on this race?

and you can DPS on Nord?

Its good for PVP not that much bad for PVE

Faulgor

Arciris wrote: »

Trial Meta:
2 Nord Tanks
2 Nord healers
> To increase Major Force uptime.
With higher Major Force uptime:
8 Khajiit DD, most likely 8 Khajiit Magblade (maybe with some Stamblades in some encounters)

Damage is all that matters, Nord buff damage = no choice.
Since DPS is all people usually see, Khajiit - who are in a perfectly balanced spot with these changes- will be nerfed because of the Nord passive.

Please take a look at the Ulti gen Nord passive @ZOS_Gilliam I believe it has the potential to remove the little diversity left in Trial Meta

So, what about replacing the block and bash cost reduction of Imperials with a Minor/Major buff duration increase like Jorvuld's Guidance set? That would allow Imperials to have longer Warhorn/Major Force uptimes, and not only give them a unique ability for tanking, but also make them great healers, and fits their lore of excelling in interpersonal skills like speechcraft and mercantile perfectly.

TiZzA93

I accidentally put damage taken when i was supposed to put damage dealt to make it more viable for every role.

Im disappointed with imperial as they are supposed to be excellent mages and warriors lorewise but they are now literally budget nords, they were better on live compared to now just for their stat pools, i think 2400 health then have a choice between 750/1000/1250 stam OR mag. Then have the red diamond: When you deal damage you restore 450 health, stam and mag this can occur every 6 secs.

Arciris

@IronWooshu

I don't have any Imperial atm, this is unbiased feedback.
Nords could be given some buff to their individual damage instead, I'm sure Nord DDs would appreciate and Nords would still be great tanks.

@Faulgor

I don't think racial passives should give any kind of group buffs, that's the point. Racials should just be strictly individual, "egoist" buffs, IMO.