PTS Update 21 - Feedback Thread for Racial Passive Changes

LLawlietW

I still think khajiit passive needs re-examining. they just dont have any identity with tri regen. the stam recovery ended up being a tiny buff overall if you were running the meta PVE setup and gold/purple food. but then the change to the 1h enchants and therefore, absorb stamina enchants, makes it so that the khajiit cant even self sustain through a 6 mil target dummy. i can understand the 1h enchant change, but that change has effectively stopped the khajiit from being able to sustain at all in the same gear. i think the khajiit should receive a buff to the stamina regen to help it compare

TiZzA93

Im disappointed with imperial as they are supposed to be excellent mages and warriors lorewise but they are now literally budget nords, they were better on live compared to now just for their stat pools, i think 2400 health then have a choice between 750/1000/1250 stam OR mag. Then have the red diamond: When you deal damage you restore 450 health, stam and mag this can occur every 6 secs.

Orcs could get 750-1k health n stam then they would be their bursty agressive playstyle.

Kitty has great changes but get rid of health recovery and give 125 stam/mag rec, simple.

Bosmer good balance BUT switch the stealth passives between these 2 around felines see well in the dark n bosmer excellent stealth.

Dunmer i feel should have a unique passive where u pick between 2 eg. 500/1000/1500 mag OR stam n then 258 spell OR weap dmg + 3% poison OR 3% flame dmg. Lore ashlanders basically stam/poisons etc, non ashlanders mag/fire affinity.

I also feel argonians were nerfed in the wrong way, potion passive should be 2-2.5k with a 40 sec cooldown then have kept most of their live passives just converted.

Nord good changes.
Redguard ^
Breton ^
Altmer ^

elven.were_wolf

The only thing bothering me is the wood elf changes.

Stealth detection isn’t good for PvE situations and is hardly used in PvP unless you’re in tight corners, like Imperial City. Very situational.

Reduced stealth detection was PvE friendly and PvP friendly simultaneously by aiding us in the justice system and helping us not get detected in Cyrodiil. Now if we want to do anything Justice related we are pigeon holed into picking a khajiit.

Wood Elves are good theives too in TES lore, so why has this passive been removed? True hunters can detect things, but they can also conceal themseves from threats.

I don’t mind the other changes to wood elf but this one is a big deal for someone who plays a woodelf theif.

Now only ONE race can sneak well AND have a 5% pickpocket chance success to boot for PvE Justice System.

Also, something I’m curious about is wood elves have spinners in the lore that manifest magickal stories, so why hasn’t a magicka based passive been added to wood elf racials like the khajiit?

Ertosi

Please return Bosmer's stealth bonuses. The new ability of being able to detect stealth is completely useless outside of PvP. Most would probably argue that it's even pretty useless in PvP.

No racial passive should only apply to a tiny subset of the game, and detecting stealth certainly falls in that category.

Flipping it back to their original ability of hiding better is useful in far more situations and also helps keep their racial identity intact.

Ertosi

With Dunmer now falling obviously behind Altmers, could the solution be giving them back at least a portion of their old bonus to fire damage? This would bridge the gap, albeit with their preferred element, but would still be useful for non-magicka builds. This would allow them to stay competitive with the other races, and retain their old racial identity while also embracing their new hybrid approach.

uFuqinwitme

I also find the Wood Elf changes to be lacking progression.

Despite this talk of giving races universal applicability, Wood Elves have reached a worse point of universal applicability than before the racial pass.

I don't understand the thought process here - Altmer have had a lot of thought put into them to incentivize a variety of different playstyles - they have a lot of pure ability potency and although they still don't have the most solid Stamina passives, they also have a Stamina return source which blends well with a lot of current tanking strategies in both sides of content. And thats great thought processing.

Bosmer on the other hand, are forced into a state of trying to block and sprint as little as possible or they lose a whole racial passive worth of bonus at any time during that point, and forced to accept that in PvE fights where stationary action is important they are an entire passive short aswell.

I just really hope these changes are reconsidered. I know the 258 Stam Regen is huge, and they are in a great spot for PvP and solo, but I think some thought needs to be applied in going for the actual universal applicability that you guys strived for.

Roboplus

I'm going to quote something from another topic because it's relevant here.

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

“Why are some of the stat values different when comparing races?”
In the initial post we referenced how each race had been balanced around our set bonus efficiency system, which aims to break down all the bonuses into a mathematical value of comparison. Each race uses a number as their benchmark (~6.5 set bonuses), and the values of their individual passives all add up to reach it. That means that not every bonus is compared one to one; such as the Orc’s Brawny passive vs the Imperial’s Tough and Imperial Mettle passives, nor were they compared point for point to their current bonuses on Live.

“Why are these stats lower than what I’m used to?”
Similarly to the note above, not all of the stats have been converted 1:1 in our adjustment from percentages to flat bonuses. The bonuses to Health, Magicka, and Stamina in particular will be lower compared to previously, since these will not scale with your Champion Point’s bonus of 20% increase. This is because they do not apply to your base stats, similarly to food or 5 piece bonuses. With this in mind, we increased some other areas of racial bonuses to make up for the potential loss of power.

The use of a static value (6.5) in order to balance passives is a great idea. In any situation where W/S damage, Regen, or Max Resource are isolated, it's probably accurately balanced. Those are all established figures and your formulas likely reflect that.

But what about the more complicated passives? The Nord ult passive is half as effective as Hide of the Werewolf. Does that make it only weigh 0.5 toward that 6.5 total? By what metric are you calculating burst resource recovery via potion use? Or status immunity?

And then you have effects that do not apply to all portions of the game. If Bosmer are 6.5 due to the stealth detection, then that value would only be balanced in PvP. If 3 meters of stealth detection is weighed as 0.5, then do Bosmer only effectively have 6.0 passives for PvE? And again, if Nord's ult generation is also 0.5, that means Bosmer could be missing a substantial effect in PvE.

Same goes for Khajiit. Stealth is very strong in PvP and in Overworld, but it's useless in Dungeon/Trial. How much of their 6.5 total are they effectively missing when they enter group PvE content?

If you're going to tell us that passives are balanced via a flat number like 6.5 and expect that to make any difference to us, then you need to tell us how those figures add up.

WuffyCerulei

The spell crit added to the Khajiit is a blessing. Hitting 41k+ parses on a magsorc. But the sustain is shoddy to say the least.

Yamenstein

Ertosi wrote: »

With Dunmer now falling obviously behind Altmers, could the solution be giving them back at least a portion of their old bonus to fire damage? This would bridge the gap, albeit with their preferred element, but would still be useful for non-magicka builds. This would allow them to stay competitive with the other races, and retain their old racial identity while also embracing their new hybrid approach.

"Retain their old racial identity"? Dunmer aren't know for being proficient in flame damage.

Maybe they should just add a bit more spell damage to the class.

They could even just introduce skill specific bonuses. Say when they dual wield they gain another x amount of weapon damage, or when you use a specific destruction skill it adds another y amount of spell damage for z time. Etc.

ChunkyCat

That Bosmer speed buff is nice. Don’t change it.

Tonturri

Khajiit stat passives need a buff - health regen is nowhere near as valuable as stam or magicka regen and, if it is added to a racial passive, needs to be much higher than 100.

Together, the passives add up to 250. Dunmer got 1200ish stam and magicka, adding up to a not-insignificant amount more than a magicka racial gives. Splitting up a single stat racial into two different stats is supposed to allow the two diff (or three diff stats, in the case of Khajiit - stam/mag/health regen) to be then bumped up a bit, so they add up to a total bigger than their counterpart (in this case, the base 254 regen other races get), but it's not as strong because it's more spread out.

What we have is, the stats are more spread out AND weaker in total AND 40% of the stats (100 health regen) are effectively nonexistent. This is an issue - a relatively minor one, admittedly, but still.

I'm pretty gosh darn thrilled about the bonus stats and spell crit though.

Vapirko

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

I think Orc is in a fairly decent place. I still feel like the flat value health and stamina should be increased to 1k. 500 is almost nothing and feels like a real waste of a whole racial passive.

Also the 380 heal from Unflinching is super underwhelming. I rather just see that removed and the Stamina return increased to something like 500-700 Stamina. A 190 heal every 4 seconds in Cyrodiil is only useful if you stub your toe and need relief.

Yeah I just jumped on PTS and 500 feels like it might as well be zero and give us something else lol. Will post more later when I analyze stats in depth. This is a HUGE nerf to PvP stamplars which relied on stacking stamina for PoL and redguard isn't really an option because you NEED every little bit of mobility you can find in PvP right now.

IronWooshu

Could we please change Nord passive to 5 ultimate every 5 seconds when taking damage? It's pretty limited in its use, in trials or dungeons DPS Nords wont get to take much advantage of it other than tanks. It's mostly going to shine in PVP and when tanking and thats fine for me but that's turning the Nord into a PVP or Tank race only rather than giving more freedom.

ToRelax

Dunmer stats are outclassed for magicka builds by Altmer as it is more efficient to use purple food/glyphs/triune jewelry/hybrid sets instead.

I do not wish to see the fire damage return. That would mean the other bonuses must be balanced under the assumption that players are going to make use of it, so they would lose out on their passives if they don't.

To make the magicka and stamina bonuses efficient, they should be increased to at least 1500 each to put them in line with prismatic glyphs. This would make Dunmer not only more workable as a magicka or stamina build, but also hybrid, as the common integration of health bonuses in hybrid options means it is very easy to stack for them.

The health bonus is almost negligible, but non-situational. In contrast, the Altmer's damage reduction while channeling is more powerful but highly situational.
The Altmers regen passive is relatively strong and non-situational. The Dunmer's fire resistance passive is slightly more powerful when it comes into play (against magicka DKs) but highly situational. On paper the resistance, coupled with the opponent's sustain loss from not being able to proc the Combustion passive, looks significantly more powerful for that situation. However, unlike the Altmer's regen passive, it does not allow the user to build under the assumption that it will come into play, making them less able to harness that potential when it does. The resistance passive is also not relevant for PvE, I imagine.

The spell and weapon damage is a good passive, though it doesn't overshadow the other race's damage passives in any way. Magicka and stamina builds will use only half of it, whereas hybrids simply have the option to gain full use out of their passives without using a Pelinal's build. Pelinal's builds on the other hand, can use it just as well. The passive should therefore not be counted as more set bonuses than comparable damage passives on other races for the purpose of balancing them.

In summary, Dunmer should gain 250 more mac magicka and stamina as a baseline. Some other or larger bonus could make sense as well, potentially even in exchange for the health passive, but is not strictly necessary to make their bonuses as efficient as other's.


PS:
I really would have liked if every race had bonuses making it competitive in any role. I feel you really missed an opportunity to make ESO a better game there.

grannas211

Dunmer is fine

Narvuntien

I have a PVP stealth ganking bosmer and a PVE MagDK dumner as my main characters, these changes specifically weaken my favourite characters.

That is for context so you can see why I might be looking for changes before these changes (which mostly seem good) go live.

Because of the previous fire damage bonus of dumner a lot of players made MagDK pyromancer characters and have played these characters for years. The current changes to Dumner while not bad exactly makes a dumner MagDk a lot worse than an Altmer MagDK.

So my suggestion is to allow for an interesting passive that helps magdk without exclusively helping MagDks my suggestion after some thought is to tackle dumners issue with sustain.
"Whenever you apply a status effect (burning chilled, concussed, poisoned etc.) to a target gain a small amount of mag and stam" There is the issue this will make them too strong a stam class since their issue is sustained but it is still very strong for hybrids.

As for Bosmer, I mourn the loss of stealth gameplay but I know its not exactly healthy. The stealth detection really isn't that useful because the engage range and lag in PVP is just too high for you to be able to react to players in stealth. It is also not useful in PVE.

So my suggestion for a more interesting passive seeks to give bosmer what they are lacking, a little bit more damage. Since their new roll dodge passive is really strong I would like to tie more damage to the ability.
"After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds and your next direct damage attack within 3 seconds will critically strike". Obviously good in PVP it still adds a little more damage in PVE after dodging mechanics.

Ertosi

Yamenstein wrote: »

Ertosi wrote: »

With Dunmer now falling obviously behind Altmers, could the solution be giving them back at least a portion of their old bonus to fire damage? This would bridge the gap, albeit with their preferred element, but would still be useful for non-magicka builds. This would allow them to stay competitive with the other races, and retain their old racial identity while also embracing their new hybrid approach.

"Retain their old racial identity"? Dunmer aren't know for being proficient in flame damage.

They've been known for it in ESO since the game came out. They were also known for it in Skyrim. From Skyrim's In-Game Description of Dark Elves:

Also known as "Dunmer" in their homeland of Morrowind, dark elves are noted for their stealth and magic skills. They are naturally resistant to fire and can call upon their Ancestor's Wrath to surround themselves in fire.

As suggested, giving them back at least a little of their bonus damage to fire would help bridge the gap between them and Altmer for magicka builds, while also working with their new hybrid approach for other builds.

Bowser

I'd love to see weapon and spell damage instead of healing done on the Argonian passive, since weapon and spell damage affect healing done AND give Argonians a damage option.

Vapirko

Bowser wrote: »

I'd love to see weapon and spell damage instead of healing done on the Argonian passive, since weapon and spell damage affect healing done AND give Argonians a damage option.

That would likely be way too good in addition the still strong potion passive.

joaaocaampos

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Argonian

• Argonian Resistance: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Disease Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Diseased status effect.

Player Comment:

Basically, an accurate Resistance: 2310 → 2640 (4%) for Argonian (Disease) – as described above –, Wood Elf (Poison), Breton (Spell), Dark Elf (Flame), Nord (Cold), and Imperial (Physical)!

Beyond accurate Resistance, there are minor changes in some Races.

You will see all this below.

Wood Elf

• Resist Affliction: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
• Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 4 seconds.

Breton

• Spell Attunement: Gain 2310 2640 Spell Resistance and 100 Magicka Recovery.

Dark Elf

• Resist Flame: Increases your Max Health by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Burning status effect.

Imperial

• Tough: Increases your Max Health by 2000 and your Physical Resistance by 2640.
  ZOS, it's not 2310 nor 3960, and this buff is needed!
• Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina and Max Magicka by 2000.

Khajiit

• Robustness: Increases your Health, Stamina and Magicka Recovery by 100. and your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 75.

Nord

• Resist Frost: Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310 2640. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.

Orc

• Craftsman: Increases experience gain with the Heavy Armor Skill line by 15%. Increases your crafting Inspiration gained and reduces your gathering time by 10%.
• At first I suggested increasing the Max Health and Max Stamina values to 1000 500, but I've noticed that Orcs now has Weapon Damage (with Swift Warrior) and sustain (with Unflinching). Maybe orcs are in a good position right now and these increases are not necessary.

And that's it!

Savos_Saren

Dunmer seems a little outclassed in the magic DD department. ZOS could at least add something that would help them with the hybrid builds. You cannot reap benefits from any particular armor passive or any particular type of damage when you're a hybrid.

Give Dunmers either 2% healing received or some sort of weapon/spell penetration bonus. Something that would help any hybrid build.

BaylorCorvette

Vapirko wrote: »

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

I think Orc is in a fairly decent place. I still feel like the flat value health and stamina should be increased to 1k. 500 is almost nothing and feels like a real waste of a whole racial passive.

Also the 380 heal from Unflinching is super underwhelming. I rather just see that removed and the Stamina return increased to something like 500-700 Stamina. A 190 heal every 4 seconds in Cyrodiil is only useful if you stub your toe and need relief.

Yeah I just jumped on PTS and 500 feels like it might as well be zero and give us something else lol. Will post more later when I analyze stats in depth. This is a HUGE nerf to PvP stamplars which relied on stacking stamina for PoL and redguard isn't really an option because you NEED every little bit of mobility you can find in PvP right now.

I did not even stack stam and it took a hit on my tool tips. Here in my stats on my StamSorc running Clever Alch and Auto with 2 damage and 1 recovery enchant on jewelry. I have clever alch proc'd and also weapon damage enchant. *Note the weapon damage enchant is from my dual wield off hand infused weapon. I also have major brutality. Weapons are dagger and axe. Nirn/infused.



Based on this I really think Orc should have 1k health and 1k stam. Not 500. 500 is almost nothing.

Strider__Roshin

Nords look like they're in a great spot this update. The only thing I would change is to reduce the ult CD to 8 seconds from 10 in order to acquire an additional Warhorn after 6:40 rather than having to wait until 8:20 when compared to a non-Nord. This will make that passive more impactful.

Imperials maintain having good overall stats, but I recommend getting rid of the bash cost reduction, and simply give imperials 10% block cost reduction.

The movement speed passive for wood elves also seems slightly overtuned. I'd reduce it to 10%.

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx

I'm seeing some good comments about Khajiit changes. If you're trying to make the race be a hybrid race for Stam/Mag, at least up the recoveries. ALL of them. 75? Really??

Khajiit definitely needs to be revised as those stats are waaayy too low.

CP5

Just to chime in, on paper I like the race changes overall and as my main is a khajiit I had to check to see what changed between pts and live.

The changes are:
+765 health and magicka
+825 stamina
+58 health regen
+82 magicka regen
-1 stamina regen
+8% crit rate

So for those worried that they lost sustain, not really no, I run much higher regen than most dps would and seeing a loss of 1 regen is nothing to worry about.

MLGProPlayer

I've been reading that early DPS tests indicate the following order for magicka DPS:

1. Khajiit (by a wide margin)
2. Breton
3. Altmer
4. Dunmer

Not sure how reliable these early reports are, but it would be pretty silly if the two most magically gifted races in the lore are the 3rd and 4th best magicka DPS, with Khajiit, a race not known for their magic, being the clear-cut BiS. Breton at #1 wouldn't be that egregious, but Khajiit is just silly.

If these early reports are validated, maybe reduce spell crit to 4% while keeping weapon crit at 8%.

ankeor

I liked the changes overall but i have a few suggestions about them

Here is my version of the a few passives.

Argonian

Life Mender: Increases your Healing Done by 7%

Wood Elf

Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. Reduces the cost of roll dodge by 20%.

Dark Elf

Resist Flame>Venomous Fire: When you apply burning or poison status effect to a target your next single target direct damage ability will cost no stamina or magicka. Increases your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.

Imperial

Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Break Free by 10%

Khajiit

Robustness: Increases your Stamina and Magicka recovery by 129.

Orc

Brawny: Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 1000.

Narvuntien

ankeor wrote: »

I liked the changes overall but i have a few suggestions about them

Here is my version of the a few passives.

Wood Elf

Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. Reduces the cost of roll dodge by 20%.

Dark Elf

Resist Flame>Venomous Fire: When you apply burning or poison status effect to a target your next single target direct damage ability will cost no stamina or magicka. Increases your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.

Imperial

Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Break Free by 10%

I see we are on the same kind of lines along dumner and status effects.

Roll dodge cost reduction is good because of how it interacts with the new passive but I still want more damage out of bosmer passives.

Ooh I like the break free cost reduction for imperials.... it's also super flavourful if you think about it imperials famous for breaking free of slavery.

ankeor

Narvuntien wrote: »

ankeor wrote: »

I liked the changes overall but i have a few suggestions about them

Here is my version of the a few passives.

Wood Elf

Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. Reduces the cost of roll dodge by 20%.

Dark Elf

Resist Flame>Venomous Fire: When you apply burning or poison status effect to a target your next single target direct damage ability will cost no stamina or magicka. Increases your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.

Imperial

Red Diamond: When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Break Free by 10%

I see we are on the same kind of lines along dumner and status effects.

Roll dodge cost reduction is good because of how it interacts with the new passive but I still want more damage out of bosmer passives.

Ooh I like the break free cost reduction for imperials.... it's also super flavourful if you think about it imperials famous for breaking free of slavery.

Thing with bosmers is PvP they have really good sustain they can go full damage with their itemization. PvE wise yes, they are not the best.

About the Imperials I wish I could say that it was intentional but i realised it after your mentioned it. I guess it lined up perfectly.

commdt

Hey, overall direction of race change is good. Races are now more in line than previously, former OP races (lizard) nerfed a bit, more weak races buffed. But there are some weak points still. To be precise two goals were not fully achieved:
1. Any given race cant perform any given role well (at least in PvE), but I guess it is impossible to implement due to lore, so Im absolutely fine with this
2. The race diversity is still weak and there still are races, that are bad at every role in PvE. Redguard is still the best stamina DD, but now Orc and Khajiit and arguably Bosmer and Dunmer are good options too, for mana we have Altmer ang Khajiit again. Best healers are Argonians and then bretons and the best tank, far better than others is Nord period.

Now let us look at some races

Breton
Too much sustain for a DD with lack of offensive bonuses, and Im not sure there is some extra burst build to compensate this, so wont be preferable DD. The same goes for a healer - sustain is too big, you wont generally need this. For a tank and PvP heal/dd though it is a very strong option though, because due to lack of cost reduction in the game this 7% bonus will have a full strength and it is huge (like built-in seducer, I tried it on my tank and the difference is immence). Maybe it would be better to trade some cost reduction for more offence (in the form of extra mana i.e.), this way Breton will be more versatile and not overpowered in PvP

Dunmer
While bonuses are weighted and balanced out in raw numbers with other races and he can now be either magicka or stamina DD which is good, he wont be the best in any of these specializations in PvE. But the main pain point is lacking of fire offence which would hit all mag DKs which preferred this race (and there are many of them). Considering the fact that mana DK are far inferior to any other mana DD (in both range and damage) this will hit them hard and cause much outcry. I dont run Dunmer mDK myself, but Id give them flat bonus to fire damage which will keep mDKs happy while wont offer much to other classes. I would also add some physical damage bonus which will benefit weak Wardens and Sorcs and wont do much for NBs and DKs, but there is a templar, which is already strong, so not sure about this.

Bosmer
Is fine all-in-all. Has some good stamina, some sustain, but the third bonus is not of any use for a DD in PvE. So in raw numbers Bosmer is still inferior. Im sure some minor bonus for PvE DD is in order here

Imperial
Now this is a complicated matter. Imperials are good for stam DD in PvP now (esp. for templars, sorcs or cleave builds), but they just dont fit in PvE on any role. Lets look at their history. Once tank meta was about maxing both HP and stamina and Imperials were shining back then. I bet most of this upgrade purchases occured in that times. Than max stamina became obsolete for a tank and Argonians took the priviledge of being the best tanks, still Imperials were interesting for max HP builds on tanks or max max stamina builds for DD. And now? For a tank He have a bit higher HP then other races, too much stamina (1500 is more than enough) and basically nothing else. For a DD he has too much HP, some extra stamina and nothing else. Ok, Imperial was never intended to be the best DD and it is OK, but let him be good at least as a tank. And red diamond self heal is not needed on DD in PvE and just wont work on a tank. Block and bash cost reduction would be good, but it is very weak. For Nords you changed 6% damage reduction for flat resistances ant it is very strong option. Previously these 6% were equal to 1-2% damage reduction on tank builds and now it is plain 6%. I calculated these 5% block cost reduction on Imperial tank and got only 1% block cost reduction in fact. Thus it would be better to change this bonus to Shieldplay glyph variant, 260 flat block cost reduction will result in 5% real reduction on tank builds, so for bash cost reduction it would be around -390. This way Imperial tanks would be able to drop 1-2 Shieldplay glyphs and get 160*1.5 = 240 mana regen, which is perfectly in line with other races bonuses. Still Imperials wont be that attractive to buy the upgrade but at least it would make sence to roll one as a tank.