PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Minalan

This is all a scam, to make us accept crtiable shields in PVP.

Next Monday they'll remove the cast time, leave the critable shield and then bask in the praises of the (PVE) half of players sheeping en masse back to their subs.

All of the shield changes are horrible, remove them all or don't bother.

Aliyavana

ezio45 wrote: »

LOL

Maryal

There are a lot of players who play sorc for the 'ez mode' ... but there are also a lot of players who play mag sorcs and are among the most skillful players in the game. I know the changes to the class are big changes, but I have a lot of faith in the higher skilled sorcs to find new/different builds for their class. Maybe all these changes will flop out, but maybe, after all the dust settles, a new type of mag sorc will emerge, one that is just as powerful but in a more skillful way.

PathwayM

So ZOS, if you feel the need to take away the primary defense for Magicka sorcerers, could you please grant us an outlet for snare immunity? The reason for this is as follows:

Shields without cast time enabled stacking a continuous rotation of shields for the purpose of defending against primarily melee attackers. In sorc vs ranged battles we had less need to actually spam shields vs many class because we had the occasional option of roll dodging and keeping pressure on our targets. By granting sorcerers a source of snare immunity accessible to light armor users this would effectively allow the sorcerer to escape a melee threat without being constantly snared repeatedly and ultimately locked in place and forced to defend. This also caused lots of stamina management pressure due to the repeated incoming stuns, roots, and snares. Shields were really the only way to defend against this. However, since the cast time on shields will effectively neuter this method of defending, we now need the option to escape. Currently, sorcerers do have the mobility to get out of harms way through streak, but we are often stuck in place still due to roots that follow us.

Solution: Grant Streak & Morphs 4 seconds of snare immunity. This would allow sorcerers to play a highly mobile style of gameplay while being able to actually escape melee situations and keep their ranged advantage. This is still countered easily by gap closers available to all other classes and I think would provide a great new playstyle to magicka sorc with the potential for skilled players to really take advantage of the mobility when combined with skills like boundless storm.

This might even be a good option to add to the base skill of lightning form which would also provide stamina sorcerers with a unique form of snare removal to help solidify their class identity (streak would effectively do this as well though) and would not force them to run shuffle or forward momentum and could mean more build diversity with setups like heavy armor + sword/board + bow. Who knows?

Thoughts anyone?

Nicko_Lps

ZOS_MikaS wrote: »

We have removed a handful of non-constructive comments from this thread. Please ensure that the discussion remains civil and free of bashing. Thanks for your understanding.

I think you firstly have to remove handful of non-constructive comments from the new update class balance thread and please ensure that your devs will remain devs that actually play the game and not TETRIS, while being civil to classes that people PAY and enjoy to play.

Thanks for your understanding.

Kerioko

Solution for Sorcs:

Run Mark of the Pariah defending resto backbar and jewelry.

Set gives:
- Health
- Spell Resist
- Physical Resist
- Gain up to 11K Resist at low health

Pair this with healing ward (cast at low health), mist form, and boundless storm and vampire undeath passive, you get a huge shield that takes very little damage until it heals you. Add in shadowrend minor maim, temporal guard minor protection, and 7/7 impen to make dawnbreakers hit like a noodle.

Then frontbar a master ice staff and run 5 light with desert rose on body. Mist form and block for days as you build ult.

Then trigger overload and weave your burst rotation of curse, fury, reach, and frags.

Then ROFL because your burst rotation was absorbed by a warden shield, was reflected by a DK's wings, was absorbed by a NB's cloak, or was healed through by a templars BoL.

JadonSky

ZOS_MikaS wrote: »

We have removed a handful of non-constructive comments from this thread. Please ensure that the discussion remains civil and free of bashing. Thanks for your understanding.

Is it bad that this comment from ZOS makes me want to uninstall the game. Makes me feel like they don’t want to hear that we don’t like the change.

ezio45

Kerioko wrote: »

Solution for Sorcs:

Run Mark of the Pariah defending resto backbar and jewelry.

Set gives:
- Health
- Spell Resist
- Physical Resist
- Gain up to 11K Resist at low health

Pair this with healing ward (cast at low health), mist form, and boundless storm and vampire undeath passive, you get a huge shield that takes very little damage until it heals you. Add in shadowrend minor maim, temporal guard minor protection, and 7/7 impen to make dawnbreakers hit like a noodle.

Then frontbar a master ice staff and run 5 light with desert rose on body. Mist form and block for days as you build ult.

Then trigger overload and weave your burst rotation of curse, fury, reach, and frags.

Then ROFL because your burst rotation was absorbed by a warden shield, was reflected by a DK's wings, was absorbed by a NB's cloak, or was healed through by a templars BoL.

if we were ok with running heavy armor we wouldnt care

Sweetpea704

The cast time on the shields makes them basically useless. I hate that you nerf entire classes based on a few people who are annoying in PVP. I never had any problem filling a Sorc Kill quest in PVP. It isn't like sorcs were unkillable.

My PVE sorc seems less effective and it is bumming me out. I just golded out all her new Summerset stuff, got her just right, was really enjoying playing her, and you nerf her into the ground.

I did Black Rose Prison and just was constantly dead. That is not fun. Games should be fun. You made my sorc not fun. I was playing with folks that I beat VDSA with multiple times, so I know it wasn't the company. I don't even know what to say. It is depressing.

ezio45

Updated List of Complaints for sorc

Shields

Cast time on shields
- Will prevent the casting of back to back shields leaving sorcs with 0 defense
- Compounds the problem of sorcs attacking and not being able to cast shields do to the gcd, meaning attacking leaves you without shields longer and its even easier to end up in the situation were you cant access your shield when you need it
- A cast time makes this interuptable and this has been proven on pts, shields are interuptable leaving the player trying to cast them stunned. with skills like crushing shock this is easy to get a sorc in a situation where they are getting pressured, need to shield and shielding makes the situation worse.
Increased duration
-This is a hallow buff, shields already dont last there full duration in pve or pvp

Crit Damage
- Most shields in pvp are 8-10k that is one crit shot from gone. We cant cast them now and the resist buff isnt doesnt help light half as much as the tanks who have been made even tankier because of it

Resist buff to shields
- Why would you highlight that this makes tanks even tankier... player already hate tanks in pvp, Lets make them harder to kill

Poison and enchants now proc
-Honestly this is the only sane thing they did to shields, only problem i have with this is with trap poisons that i think suck for gameplay in general

Overload
-We like our 3rd bar
- Removing the 3rd bar has killed to entire styles of gameplay, being the overload gank build and a type of healer build. It also prevents sorc from storing less used utility skills on that bar, ya know cuz its not like are bars are packed with otherwise useless buff skills in combat.
- Overload heavy attack will always be useless in pve, why because its a channel ability that you cant do anything else while using
- Allowing us to use weapons with overload light attack while allow to weave it into a pve rotation but it still doesnt compare to a destro ult. Especially with a nerf to its damage, again putting another nail in the overload gank coffin
- If nightblade and anyone with a bow can gank why does zos have an issue with sorcs ganking. Either restore the sorc gank build or nerf ganking altogether. Targeting one type of gank build and not the other is hypocritical.

Pets
- The problem with pets wasnt the cost, it was the cast time. Theyre hard to re summon in combat

Dark Exhange
- The first part of this is actually a GOOD change but the slowly over time second half is a waste. Why not make this like haunting curse and have it give half the effect instantly and the other part after.

Runecage
-Will zos just revert this skill to update 17 already, we didnt want the update 18 buff to it, you nerfed it right after in 19 and here we are at 20 with it being worse than in 17, the skill was fine in 17. We just like it for the fact it can drop block, Dmg on this we dont care about.

Light armor
-Sustain increases was your chance to prove zos listened to the class reps, you didnt. Increasing sustain was the one thing sorcs wanted to help give them a chance to compete with mnb in trials. Compete for trial spots. So theres actually more than one sorc if there so gracious to allow that. You gave the mnb the increase to sustain too, they didnt even have problems sustaining. All this has done was raise up mnb dps even more, sorc still cant compare to their dps.
-Anyone that actually place sorc could tell you buffing capacitor or unholy knowledge would have been an easy win here

Destruction staff
-You buffed impulse, a skill noone uses in pve. Only because you needed something to give an ability buff weapon to for mag for the new trial.
- No chance to ancient knowledge requiring a skill meaning sorcs that want to use elemental weapon to help with sustain are still forced to use the fire destro ult. Were sorcs, we want to use lighting.
- Nothing to help give a reason to run a lighting staff other than the heavy attack, the fact that a sorc is better off running dual fire staff is absurd.

reposting without the "unneeded remarks and bashing" that the first was removed for -_-

Btw, zos mods, if something is 95% criticism and explaining why i have a problem with something and the last 3 lines are the part where make some sort of remark you are unhappy with, you should probably leave it up or just remove the last 3 lines

FrancisCrawford

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

Shields got the worst change possible. Wont be coming back from my break if this is not reversed. Terrible. Terrible. TERRIBLE IDEA.

The stated reason for the change was to make healers more useful. Perhaps ZoS didn't realize that in most groups, healers are NOT responsible for rezzing.

ruikkarikun

Guys can someone record a video from PTS for constructive feedback as @Joy_Division said?

1) Some PVP duels 1v1, 1vX
2) Some PVE situation "oh s***" when cast time shield make you dead
3) Dark deal and stamsorc, some overload tests.

I don't have environment to record, but maybe can help somehow. If someone good player who know mechanic can do this It will be good for detailed and quality answer to devs team.

FrancisCrawford

anatole1234 wrote: »

Simple solution : Keep cast time on hardened ward and remove cast time on annulment.

BOOM!

You've just nerfed sorc's massive shield stack without gimping other light armor builds

That could work. Nobody will ever equip Hardened Ward again, but a class can survive with a couple of useless skills in its tree.

FrancisCrawford

Fudly_budly wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

That's not true at all.

NB: insta cloak, telport
Temps: Block + BOL
DKs: Wings, Block + Dragon blood
Wardens: Shimmering or mushrooms

I did vMA on my sorc last night on the PTS. I see what the devs were going for because it's possible to do the arena with the way shields are (mostly by using healing ward shield as the oh *** button), but there is zero reason to slot, let alone use, Conjured ward or harness in their current state.

While "solo" may work using Healing Ward, running in groups or "gangs (non-grouped allies)" does not as the Ward is given to someone other than the caster. This other player then gets the heal as well. Further the Healing ward is only about 60% of Conjured or Harness. I tested this today in a Public Dungeon and was killed. I haven't died in a pub dungeon since I can remember.

Ward Ally solves the first of those problems. It obviously doesn't solve the second, but there's a bit of a disconnect here: People complain that most shields never, ever last until expiration, yet they also worry about the after-expiration heal on Healing Ward.

An_An

anatole1234 wrote: »

Simple solution : Keep cast time on hardened ward and remove cast time on annulment.

BOOM!

You've just nerfed sorc's massive shield stack without gimping other light armor builds

If this happens Resto ward will become the new hardened ward. Don't think it will make much of a difference. Unless they add a cast time to restoration staff ward (which makes no sense since it is supposed to be used in an "oh-***" situation).

Joy_Division

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Guys can someone record a video from PTS for constructive feedback as @Joy_Division said?

1) Some PVP duels 1v1, 1vX
2) Some PVE situation "oh s***" when cast time shield make you dead
3) Dark deal and stamsorc, some overload tests.

I don't have environment to record, but maybe can help somehow. If someone good player who know mechanic can do this It will be good for detailed and quality answer to devs team.

I did #2.

SenorCrouch

ZOS_MikaS wrote: »

We have removed a handful of non-constructive comments from this thread. Please ensure that the discussion remains civil and free of bashing. Thanks for your understanding.

You can thank us by making sure the combat team understands how bad of an idea it is to have casting time on shields.

It feels like the scene in Guardians of the Galaxy 1 where Ronan has the Power Stone and is making his way to Xandar, in this case ZoS with this Update. And we are the defense force. "We cannot allow that patch in its current form to reach the surface otherwise all is lost!"

ArterionAU

The Critable shields seems like a change that was bound to happen and doesn't bother me too much, will balance out things somewhat. The 1 second cast time to shields though is a joke, it feels clunky, slows down gameplay and will make them almost useless in PvP since they can interrupted. All it will take is for another player to be in your face and bash you when you try cast it then they can burst you down in a few seconds since your in Light Armour. As for endgame PvE in places like vAS, vHoF and vMA where you get hit by damage no matter what the one second cast time is going to be horrible and lead to many deaths, which isn't fun and it's not something the player can really improve upon because your always going to shield up when damage is incoming as quickly as possible, now with the 1 second delay you will die. I really hope this change is reverted.

Xsorus

Kerioko wrote: »

Solution for Sorcs:

Run Mark of the Pariah defending resto backbar and jewelry.

Set gives:
- Health
- Spell Resist
- Physical Resist
- Gain up to 11K Resist at low health

Pair this with healing ward (cast at low health), mist form, and boundless storm and vampire undeath passive, you get a huge shield that takes very little damage until it heals you. Add in shadowrend minor maim, temporal guard minor protection, and 7/7 impen to make dawnbreakers hit like a noodle.

Then frontbar a master ice staff and run 5 light with desert rose on body. Mist form and block for days as you build ult.

Then trigger overload and weave your burst rotation of curse, fury, reach, and frags.

Then ROFL because your burst rotation was absorbed by a warden shield, was reflected by a DK's wings, was absorbed by a NB's cloak, or was healed through by a templars BoL.

Or....

Heavy Chest/Legs Impregnable
Gloves/Boots/Belt Light Armor Impregnable
2 Blood Spawn (Both Light)
Front Bar - Master's Destruction Staff
Jewelry - Lich with Protective as Trait
Backbar - Lich Restro

Congrats, you now are basically freakin immune to crits on your shields again and have Massive Mitigation with them.

Didgerion

Kerioko wrote: »

Solution for Sorcs:

Run Mark of the Pariah defending resto backbar and jewelry.

Set gives:
- Health
- Spell Resist
- Physical Resist
- Gain up to 11K Resist at low health

Pair this with healing ward (cast at low health), mist form, and boundless storm and vampire undeath passive, you get a huge shield that takes very little damage until it heals you. Add in shadowrend minor maim, temporal guard minor protection, and 7/7 impen to make dawnbreakers hit like a noodle.

Then frontbar a master ice staff and run 5 light with desert rose on body. Mist form and block for days as you build ult.

Then trigger overload and weave your burst rotation of curse, fury, reach, and frags.

Then ROFL because your burst rotation was absorbed by a warden shield, was reflected by a DK's wings, was absorbed by a NB's cloak, or was healed through by a templars BoL.

Wait did anyone removed shield breaker from the game?

Didgerion

Minalan wrote: »

Here are a few things you devs missed on rune cage:

Only a brand new or paraplegic player is ever going to take damage from cage once caught by it. IF caught by it.

Solution: Make it dodgeable, make it easy to counter, or put the full damage on the back end. Not all three. Haven't you guys sussed this out yet? Think! If it's easy to counter, then put the damage up front. If it's not easy to counter, put the damage on the back end where few will ever experience it.

It makes no difference whether the stun is two or ten seconds, cage will always be immediately broken because sitting still while bent over is a DEATH SENTENCE.

If I see one more poorly thought out change to this I'm writing your company President.

There is no room for the rune-cage on the bars anymore, I'd say let it go...

Derra

Positive/mixed feedback:

The overload change feels good when you want to actually use it as an offensive ultimate and not as a gank tool or to store more spells.
However the removal of the overload bar just further reinforced the sorcs lack of barspace problems (that have been brought up in the very first classrep meeting) - that hasn´t been adressed.

opaj

I took some time to try out the updated skills, so here's my feedback based on that. Note that I have a fairly casual playstyle but put in fairly hardcore hours.

Overload
I thought Overload might replace Soul Strike as my single target ultimate. However, I found that weaving Overload followed a different rhythm to weaving with a staff, and transitioning between the two felt clunky and unintuitive. I did some baby parses on the Precursor, and Overload netted me about 1.5-2k less DPS on average vs. Soul Strike.

The sustain from Energy Overload's magicka return might be nice if I was doing more difficult content, I guess.


Rune Prison
I actually use Defensive Rune on my treasure hunter stamina sorcerer, so I was concerned about this one. Testing this in Murkmire, I didn't feel any practical difference between Defense Rune's effectiveness in live and on the PTS. In fact, given the slow attack speed most NPCs have, this may actually increase the effectiveness of Rune Cage when in PvE areas.

There's another issue here. As a relatively low-skill player, Rune Cage gave me an anti-gank option when traveling through Cyrodiil. With the delay, I think that Rune Cage will now only work against players that I would actually stand a chance again anyway; as an anti-gank tool, I'm not sure if I'll still want to slot it.

I have no opinion on Rune Cage; even though I understand it became very powerful in Summerset, it didn't quite fit the theme of any of my characters, so I didn't use it. That's the kind of player I am.


Dark Exchange
I need more time with this one. Based on UESP numbers, casting this as a buff rather than a "OH CRAP RESOURCES" button could allow one of my stamina sorcs to get off of Camoran's Dubious Throne. Unfortunately, that character has not leveled the skill enough to morph it, so... We'll see.


Conjured Ward
I only rarely use this ability, and when I do use it, I do not use it well. Adding a 1-second cast time moves the ability beyond my skill to use effectively, since I rarely anticipate the really big hits that would necessitate a big shield. This will be going off my ability bar.

I am a potato.


Overview
As an unskilled player engaging with casual content, most of this won't have much impact on me one way or the other. I may be more hesitant about trying out harder content, though, since it seems like the skill floor for Conjured Ward is being raised a fair bit here.

WuffyCerulei

I posted this in the wrong thread, herderp.
https://youtu.be/mB1lnRi_te4
A hellish time in vMA because of the cast time. Thanks ZOS.

kookster

As someone who does not even play mag... cause I suck at it, I think that adding a cast time to the effected shields is not the solution. That being said, I do think that shields need some addressing, but I do not think adding a cast time is the solution. I feel the crit change is good, perhaps allowing spell and physical pen to be applied to shields as well? Either way I don't think there should be a cast time, this will ruin so many magsorcs builds in pvp entirely.

KBKB

Terrible change on the 1 second cast time, not thought out at all and completely impracticable.

WuffyCerulei

Can we get a dev response on the outrage of the shield cast time, please?

Doctordarkspawn

kookster wrote: »

As someone who does not even play mag... cause I suck at it, I think that adding a cast time to the effected shields is not the solution. That being said, I do think that shields need some addressing, but I do not think adding a cast time is the solution. I feel the crit change is good, perhaps allowing spell and physical pen to be applied to shields as well? Either way I don't think there should be a cast time, this will ruin so many magsorcs builds in pvp entirely.

That's exactly the solution. This'll make them just for burst damage in PVP and in PVE it wont change their effectiveness since Mobs dont have these stats.

Crit changes, apply pen to it. That's all that needed to happen.

NinchiTV

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

Can we get a dev response on the outrage of the shield cast time, please?

theyre probably waiting until the next set of pts notes are out to comment on everything, im confident that the amount of dissatisfaction with these changes will bring will make the devs remove the cast time. But hey, people have made really dumb decisions when the alternative has a better outcome. Ball in your court zos.

ezio45

SenorCrouch wrote: »

ZOS_MikaS wrote: »

We have removed a handful of non-constructive comments from this thread. Please ensure that the discussion remains civil and free of bashing. Thanks for your understanding.

You can thank us by making sure the combat team understands how bad of an idea it is to have casting time on shields.

It feels like the scene in Guardians of the Galaxy 1 where Ronan has the Power Stone and is making his way to Xandar, in this case ZoS with this Update. And we are the defense force. "We cannot allow that patch in its current form to reach the surface otherwise all is lost!"

Strange, my movie reference was titanic, abandon ship cuz the captain lead us into an icebrege and the ship is sinking