[Class Rep] Templar Feedback Thread

LuxLunae

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Not sure why, or how to explain it...but the direction that ZOS is going seems as if they are getting ready to just remove Templar from Class choice altogether. @Checkmath can you please say something for christ's sake?? Necromancer is a complete rework of the Templar class. All other classes are being reworked, buffed, etc. Templar has lost all identity and being tweaked ONLY to make player avoid using...like WTF! I honestly don't even want to play the game anymore with this new direction. Not going to re-grind a new class just to "compete". Changes to food/drink is atrocious. This is just getting rediculous...

That's why I am shouting for all classes to get a new identity next year...yeah everybody will QQ about how they hate the changes...but so long as every class has new identities and all are truly re-balanced and can seamlessly let new classes in without stepping on the previous classes.. who cares what the changes are.

classes should be independent of races and should be independent of armors. That way there is no removal of a class skill just to be placed into a 5 piece armor set later. Also there is no STEALING of other class skills to put in a new class.

The concept of templar house is stupid....that needs to be trashed big time...what idiot will visit a house that has gun turrents in their front yard?

Yeah standing in rune for that extra def is just dumb... one can EASILY knock you out of it with wreking blow...

Templar is so pve...Nah not even... because now you can't just sit in one place in some pve settings....

The templar house is as useful as a bunker.... its there, but unless you live in tornado alley it has no use.

Mitaka211

Nirnroot420 wrote: »

A lot of drama in this thread right now over what amounts to slight changes. The Total Dark nerf kinda sucks, but it was a niche skill at best and debatable even in 1v1 PvP situations. It won't ruin any magplars day when you can just use shock clench. Otherwise, magplar got a pretty nice buff with the improved damage to Blazing Spear and the duration/cast time changes on several skills. Magplar is 100% fine and may even be better in the new chapter, but everyone is going to look worse next to the necro.

Stamplar on the other hand really needed some love to keep up and stay in line with the other classes. While I've only played mag, I can't see how stamplar stays competitive in PVP with its current toolkit. That side of the class surely needs some love.

People who prefer stamina are rightfully pissed. The patch will by no means make stamplar weaker, we will actually see a really small improvement in both pvp and pve. The problem comes that at the moment these changes won't be enough to bring us to the level of other classes. What is frustrating is i've seen people post walls of text explaining in detail every single thing that is wrong with a stamina templar, and the result is "You are ignored , Praise the sun!". I will be fine with a simple post on here, letting us know if they actually acknowledge there is a problem, so we know if we should bother playing this class lol.
Btw from what i've seen stam sorcs face the same problem as we do, so i think they have a hard time dealing with stamina users in general.

Vajrak

Easy Fix to Rune: Remove the "Standing on" defense bonus, change the animation to it's cast in front of you and then the effect sticks to you (as is), create a 1/2strength PBAoE aura to allies(excluding self) (~8m range) for opposite OR add in a self-based hp% HoT for the duration.

Result---the House/Bunker now becomes a mobile force, for DD purposes it's useful for resource/survival, for tank it's useful for resource/survival or if going with the PBAoE aura, supporting your melee DDs

Nirnroot420

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Total Dark is very useful. Direct attacks such as Shot Clench can make it very difficult for my team to close the gap on opponents, TD punishes my opponent while I gain ground. It also forces snipers to retreat and gives me a chance to heal or purge poison. Typically it forces the opponent to use weaker attacks or AOE. For players who don't play with a destruction staff, like me, my MagPlar is able to use TD offensively and defensively. It's best to put it on opponents as soon as possible so that they don't start hitting me with knockdowns from a distance. It's very disruptive.

I played with Total Dark for months, I know the usefulness of the skill, but that doesn't make it any less niche. For example, you say TD allows you to punish the opponent while you gain ground, but it's not really a punishment if they dont fall for it and simply don't do anything or buff up while you approach, making it a total waste of magicka and a CC cooldown. TD shines when you correctly anticipate when your enemy is about to burst, and when you do the skill is devastating. A lot of the time though, it's wasted, and very few good players will beat themselves up with it. It's highly situational and it's moderate nerf does nothing negative to the class. Also, any CC gives you a chance to heal or purge, and most, if not all, are superior options to TD because hard CC trumps soft CC in *most* situations.

But debating the minutiae of a pretty obscure skill isn't what this topic is about. There's other CC options, and I know you don't use a destro staff, but that's a playstyle choice and other players in your group can CC just as well as you can. This "nerf" is mild at best and does nothing to "gut" the class in anyway.

Vajrak

Desired update: If Shards initial/total damage going up, can sweeps/jabs get similar treatment? The 2 are already pretty close in terms of damage output, with a 36% damage increase that is pretty bloody huge.

Drdeath20

Soo just to be clear. This patch was not a overall class balancing patch as it was more of a skill audit. Meant to buff or nerf skills to become as close as possible to each other in cost efficiency and function all while still being different.

Mr_Nobody

Vajrak wrote: »

Desired update: If Shards initial/total damage going up, can sweeps/jabs get similar treatment? The 2 are already pretty close in terms of damage output, with a 36% damage increase that is pretty bloody huge.

exactly, i dont really see why one will use sweeps instead of shards. Its more damage AoE and at least more reliable.

akredon_ESO

i felt kinda underwhelmed by the Templar changes. Don't know why i was expecting much

tinythinker

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Necromancer is a complete rework of the Templar class.

Mentioned that the day Necro skill lines were revealed in some thread on this forum. It feels a bit like they took a lot of Templar suggestions from players over the years for that design. Not saying they did, but it was weird.

tinythinker

iaminc wrote: »

What about temp tanks , we’ve lost any way of applying cc outside time stop or volcanic rune!

How hard is it to add a cc to an existing skill for Templar’s for God’s sake.

Like taking away the extra damage they gave is for Blazing Spear and returning its stun? Even if it means letting Luminous be the higher damage tick + resource return morph?

Or having Unstable Core also stun an affected target if they activate a gap closer while it's active?

Or... Or...

*shrug*

Templars aren't garbage because of the upcoming patch but it doesn't feel very good, either. Just kind of "meh" when I think some people were looking for something serious.

(I'm kinda glad the changes were on the milder side actually.)

tinythinker

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Soo just to be clear. This patch was not a overall class balancing patch as it was more of a skill audit. Meant to buff or nerf skills to become as close as possible to each other in cost efficiency and function all while still being different.

Yup. They are trying to bring in some structure/system, a taxonomy of skills. Thus skills are brought in line with the standard associated with their new taxon, unless in the name of fun/iconic identity it is allowed to be a rule-breaker. But there were a few skills considered problematic (like Sorc shields and DK Wings) that got a serious re-work.

I've wondered if they had such a system before a few times on the forums, and what the taxa and rules were. Glad they are moving that way but allow "rule-breakers". Asymmetric balance rather than equivalent balance, and fun over fixed lines when it comes down to a close call are what I'm hoping for. Might not see another class skill pass for a good while, though.

cazlonb16_ESO

tinythinker wrote: »

Might not see another class skill pass for a good while, though.

And that's pretty much the core problem with the way they are going about this.

The taxonomy of skills at release must have been a total mess, they've been trying to fix it almost since the base game went live, with multiple passes ( and still ongoing confusion ) about really basic stuff like what constitutes as dot/dd/channel. Is this really the way forward after 5 years and with the third major addon ?

I just don't see much of a reason to expect that this particular pass of "bringing things in line" will finally work as a good starting point for actual class balance. Instead, we'll be stuck with most of the results until at least the end of the year, or more likely the next chapter, even if the changes are total nonsense in the current environment.

akredon_ESO

You either die as a Templar , or you live long enough to see yourself become a necromancer.

Cinbri

If zos wont change Rite of Passage ult in this update, they will have no rights to claim that it "brought abilities back in line with the current state of the game" and "adjust casttime/channel abilities to be more reliable" and it will be direct insult to all templars. Even Soul Assault got small improvement this update.
Not even fun how gilliam sitting on fengrush stream and joking about how "it is not 2016, all skills were rebalanced and work differently in 2019". I guess they didnt even looked that RoP contradict to game rules because it wasnt adjusted since 03.03.2015 year and got only hard nerf since then that killed Remembrance identity; and even it 4years-old functionality that we struggle with now was a band-aid attempt to fix bugged mechanic of this ult.
Changed Light Champion - good, even more moral rights now change Remembrance to operate on near-similar basis. You simply cant call it as homogenization because it will be as different as Jabs vs Flurry.

Vapirko

I just posted this in another thread, but what if PotL gave a heal on expiration based on copied damage instead of extra minor fracture? This would help with survivability and still encourage the offensive play style. It would also prevent us from just popping PotL on someone and kiting.

cpuScientist

Vapirko wrote: »

I just posted this in another thread, but what if PotL gave a heal on expiration based on copied damage instead of extra minor fracture? This would help with survivability and still encourage the offensive play style. It would also prevent us from just popping PotL on someone and kiting.

It would help in the area that stamPlar is ironically hurting, the heal. A nice pop heal would be useful. Would be a reward for being offensive.

technohic

Extended ritual is now ticking as much as rally/FM without the burst. Adding a heal to POTL would be redundant to both PL and that boost.

I'm more concerned with the nerf to empowering as it worked on a retreat. We're one of the slower classes outside of sprinting and between this and last pass moving minor protection to being tied to being offensive, we dont have much for going on the defensive.

Problem with remembrance is on the retreat, you usually need position. Casting that allows for more players to catch up. Block casting it wastes a lot of ultimate. Only option I can think of us backbar the psijiik ulti.

casparian

technohic wrote: »

Extended ritual is now ticking as much as rally/FM without the burst. Adding a heal to POTL would be redundant to both PL and that boost.

I'm more concerned with the nerf to empowering as it worked on a retreat. We're one of the slower classes outside of sprinting and between this and last pass moving minor protection to being tied to being offensive, we dont have much for going on the defensive.

Problem with remembrance is on the retreat, you usually need position. Casting that allows for more players to catch up. Block casting it wastes a lot of ultimate. Only option I can think of us backbar the psijiik ulti.

Sounds like you don’t own Summerset technohic. All the issues you mention are alleviated by Psijic skills now.

Jabbs_Giggity

casparian wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Extended ritual is now ticking as much as rally/FM without the burst. Adding a heal to POTL would be redundant to both PL and that boost.

I'm more concerned with the nerf to empowering as it worked on a retreat. We're one of the slower classes outside of sprinting and between this and last pass moving minor protection to being tied to being offensive, we dont have much for going on the defensive.

Problem with remembrance is on the retreat, you usually need position. Casting that allows for more players to catch up. Block casting it wastes a lot of ultimate. Only option I can think of us backbar the psijiik ulti.

Sounds like you don’t own Summerset technohic. All the issues you mention are alleviated by Psijic skills now.

That is absolutely not an answer to the issues that players have been providing feedback on since Class Reps became a thing...Forcing a Class to use a skill line (behind a pay wall) to account for lack of Class Skill options to provide, at the very least a similar result, is a pitiful design.

ZOS has been asking for player feedback in these Class Rep threads in order to improve each class in areas that are under performing. No direct offense to @Checkmath, but I personally feel like either ZOS is not really willing to utilize the feedback Class Reps are bringing to the table and/or Class Reps are lacking in communication with ZOS on these matters.

The way I am seeing it (in strict regard to Templar Class only) ZOS has taken all of the player feedback on the class and used this to create a "Unique" class > Necromancer. This is complete [snip] and a serius insult to Templar mains. If I were given the option to have the new Class without purchase of new Chapter AND a Class Change I would absolutely switch because the Necromancer seems to have everything the Templar SHOULD have, and more...

RIP Templar. Sad truth is that my Templar Main has the most achieved content on my account with the most hours played and all skill lines unlocked. NOT re-grinding Mage's. NOT re-grinding Psijic. NOT re-grinding all skill lines to 50. NOT re-grinding skill points, etc. > you get my irritiation.

ZOS needs to start seriously evaluating the base Classes. I don't just play Templar, and I can say with every other class there are serious concerns and/or flaws, but Templars definitely take the cake.

[edited for profanity bypass]

BNOC

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Might not see another class skill pass for a good while, though.

And that's pretty much the core problem with the way they are going about this.

The taxonomy of skills at release must have been a total mess, they've been trying to fix it almost since the base game went live, with multiple passes ( and still ongoing confusion ) about really basic stuff like what constitutes as dot/dd/channel. Is this really the way forward after 5 years and with the third major addon ?

I just don't see much of a reason to expect that this particular pass of "bringing things in line" will finally work as a good starting point for actual class balance. Instead, we'll be stuck with most of the results until at least the end of the year, or more likely the next chapter, even if the changes are total nonsense in the current environment.

R.e Skill assimilation, does anyone on the PTS know how spammables actually average across 2 classes? Surely a class with better passives than us is at an advantage if our skills are all homogenised to the same flat rates?

Solariken

I thought ZOS was trying to eliminate redundancies in class kits?

Why did they put a 6-12 sec Empower buff on EMP Sweep when Solar Barrage does the exact same thing??

Jabbs_Giggity

Solariken wrote: »

I thought ZOS was trying to eliminate redundancies in class kits?

Why did they put a 6-12 sec Empower buff on EMP Sweep when Solar Barrage does the exact same thing??

The simplistic answer? ZOS does not know what they are doing with Templars, nor do they care to appropriate adequate resources to rebuilding this dying Class.

Edit for Sidenote: Why the actual [snip] does ZOS keep giving Templars empower?!?! Templars are restricted from proper LA/HA weaving! Jesus, Mother Mary and Joseph!!!!

[edited for profanity bypass]

casparian

Solariken wrote: »

I thought ZOS was trying to eliminate redundancies in class kits?

Why did they put a 6-12 sec Empower buff on EMP Sweep when Solar Barrage does the exact same thing??

If ZOS told us "stamplars have access to a prolonged empower buff because of Solar Barrage", I think I can predict how we would all react.

I do regret the loss of yet another defensive option on stamplar, but I don't think the existence of Solar Barrage realistically does anything for stamplar.

StarOfElyon

Solariken wrote: »

I thought ZOS was trying to eliminate redundancies in class kits?

Why did they put a 6-12 sec Empower buff on EMP Sweep when Solar Barrage does the exact same thing??

It's ridiculous, honestly.

Solar Barrage should grant empower and scale with max resource - either health, magicka, or stamina - so that it should be useful for tanking and both magicka and stamina melee. Seeing a line dedicated to tanking for other classes highlights the need for Templar skills to be reworked.

Empowering Sweeps just needed a range and damage boost. If either needed Minor Protection it was the Crescent Sweep which only hits hard opponents directly ahead and leaves the user vulnerable to attack from the side. But I don't see why both morphs should lack minor protection.

StarOfElyon

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I thought ZOS was trying to eliminate redundancies in class kits?

Why did they put a 6-12 sec Empower buff on EMP Sweep when Solar Barrage does the exact same thing??

The simplistic answer? ZOS does not know what they are doing with Templars, nor do they care to appropriate adequate resources to rebuilding this dying Class.

Edit for Sidenote: Why the actual [snip] does ZOS keep giving Templars empower?!?! Templars are restricted from proper LA/HA weaving! Jesus, Mother Mary and Joseph!!!!

You're right. I stopped trying to light attack weave. Empower just seems like it's better than nothing.

[edited to remove quote]

StarOfElyon

Why can't both Dark Flare and Solar Barrage have major defile?

Jabbs_Giggity

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I thought ZOS was trying to eliminate redundancies in class kits?

Why did they put a 6-12 sec Empower buff on EMP Sweep when Solar Barrage does the exact same thing??

The simplistic answer? ZOS does not know what they are doing with Templars, nor do they care to appropriate adequate resources to rebuilding this dying Class.

Edit for Sidenote: Why the actual F*** does ZOS keep giving Templars empower?!?! Templars are restricted from proper LA/HA weaving! Jesus, Mother Mary and Joseph!!!!

You're right. I stopped trying to light attack weave. Empower just seems like it's better than nothing.

I still try to LA weave inbetween Jabs or Sweeps, but I fail every time because it's just not at all fluent. You have to give yourself at least .5 sec between Jabs ending and trying to LA. And on top of that with Magplar (have NOT had this issue with any other staff user class) whenever I LA weave it charges full HA that CANNOT be cancelled....maybe bug, or probably Templar. So trying to LA weave Sweeps turns into uncancellable HA Full and then inevitably death because defense = worst in game.

Jabbs_Giggity

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Why can't both Dark Flare and Solar Barrage have major defile?

Why can't Solar Barrage be a different skill from Dark Flare...lol Sorry I am just trolling right now because I am desperately infuriated with ZOS's incompetence.

technohic

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

Extended ritual is now ticking as much as rally/FM without the burst. Adding a heal to POTL would be redundant to both PL and that boost.

I'm more concerned with the nerf to empowering as it worked on a retreat. We're one of the slower classes outside of sprinting and between this and last pass moving minor protection to being tied to being offensive, we dont have much for going on the defensive.

Problem with remembrance is on the retreat, you usually need position. Casting that allows for more players to catch up. Block casting it wastes a lot of ultimate. Only option I can think of us backbar the psijiik ulti.

Sounds like you don’t own Summerset technohic. All the issues you mention are alleviated by Psijic skills now.

That is absolutely not an answer to the issues that players have been providing feedback on since Class Reps became a thing...Forcing a Class to use a skill line (behind a pay wall) to account for lack of Class Skill options to provide, at the very least a similar result, is a pitiful design.

ZOS has been asking for player feedback in these Class Rep threads in order to improve each class in areas that are under performing. No direct offense to @Checkmath, but I personally feel like either ZOS is not really willing to utilize the feedback Class Reps are bringing to the table and/or Class Reps are lacking in communication with ZOS on these matters.

The way I am seeing it (in strict regard to Templar Class only) ZOS has taken all of the player feedback on the class and used this to create a "Unique" class > Necromancer. This is complete [snip] and a serius insult to Templar mains. If I were given the option to have the new Class without purchase of new Chapter AND a Class Change I would absolutely switch because the Necromancer seems to have everything the Templar SHOULD have, and more...

RIP Templar. Sad truth is that my Templar Main has the most achieved content on my account with the most hours played and all skill lines unlocked. NOT re-grinding Mage's. NOT re-grinding Psijic. NOT re-grinding all skill lines to 50. NOT re-grinding skill points, etc. > you get my irritiation.

ZOS needs to start seriously evaluating the base Classes. I don't just play Templar, and I can say with every other class there are serious concerns and/or flaws, but Templars definitely take the cake.

Im not offended by the answer there. Its actually the conclusion I come to in my post to use the psijiic skill. Every class does not have everything. Just some of them do seem to have the important ones. I just thought it was a weird response to my post as my post mentioned using that skill line for it. I just take issue with removing the utility that was already in the class. I mean was anyone really complaining for or against empowering sweeps to have the need to touch it?

casparian wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I thought ZOS was trying to eliminate redundancies in class kits?

Why did they put a 6-12 sec Empower buff on EMP Sweep when Solar Barrage does the exact same thing??

If ZOS told us "stamplars have access to a prolonged empower buff because of Solar Barrage", I think I can predict how we would all react.

I do regret the loss of yet another defensive option on stamplar, but I don't think the existence of Solar Barrage realistically does anything for stamplar.

Thats pretty much what they are telling us with the other ultimates to strip empowering sweeps to begin with.

[edited to remove quote]

Solariken

casparian wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

I thought ZOS was trying to eliminate redundancies in class kits?

Why did they put a 6-12 sec Empower buff on EMP Sweep when Solar Barrage does the exact same thing??

If ZOS told us "stamplars have access to a prolonged empower buff because of Solar Barrage", I think I can predict how we would all react.

I do regret the loss of yet another defensive option on stamplar, but I don't think the existence of Solar Barrage realistically does anything for stamplar.

They could have easily made Barrage one of the highest stat scaling skills like Flames of Oblivion.

What we got directly contradicts one of their stated goals. It's fine if Emp Sweep gets the Empower since it fits the name but IMO SB should get something else.