[Class Rep] Templar Feedback Thread

technohic

Minno wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Honestly, one of my biggest issues with Templar (Stam or Mag) is lack of Class Skill toolkit. You have to go elsewhere for anything useful. This really limits options with barspace and choice of skills. Because Templars are currently designed to build one bar offensive and one bar defensive you are reducing efficiency of the Class itself.

Burst options require a longer window that is ineffective with no way to really interrupt incoming attacks via CC or interrupt or root and lacks proper defensive skills to truly mitigate huge damage tooltips from other class kits while ensuring this channel for burst.

My personal opinions would be to do the following:
1. Change Rune and morphs to drop the extra resist bonus and combine with sun shield > one being a magicka shield and other being a damage output.
2. Change cleanse to 3 effects on both morphs and add brutality/sorcery for morphs.
3. Change jabs to faster channel with one less strike and make single targeted with aoe splash. Make the target window follow target until channel is over. Currently the lowest spammable tooltip of all classes by a longshot with questionable hit rate...

1) number one makes sense. Anything to get mag scaled dmg shield for our class shield lol.
I just want to have an on-demand shield within Class Skills for Magplar that has the Sun Shield glow effect

2) cleanse is fine; for snares you have to dodge roll cancel purge to see the best benefit and then reposition so you only fight 1-2 players. major sorcery, while important, probably wont be given to cleanse. Spell power pots are the best solution for templar; we can sustain the stam better this patch than the previous 5 years of this game.
I do agree, Stamina is much easier to sustain than before. However, with Templar STILL being the only class to lack Brutality/Sorcery in its toolkit is discouraging. I mentioned changes to somehow force Templar players in to going outside of class skills to get buffs that shouls be otherwise easily obtainable.

3)agreed. jabs should be faster like they did for DW spamable and our jesus beam.

Jabs should be faster, yes. However, the bigger problem is the "Area" effect on the skill that should just be changed to "Target" instead. The skill already has "splash" damage in the form of "X damage to nearby players". Other than that, The highest I could reach for tooltip, either on Jabs or Sweeps, while still being able to adequately play the class is 4500 fully buffed - this tooltip is for overall duration of channel, not per jab. In comparison with other Class spammables they are dealing on average fully buffed 12-15K tooltips.

I'm pretty sure the tool tip is per jab not the entire channel, try on an NPC and you will see this, it's also what it states in the description.
Its low dmg in pvp due to battle spirit and resistances and or other buffs/debuffs

At fullbuff 16- 20k is not a bad tool tip if you count all 4 hits, HOWEVER it's almost never that all 4 hits land in pvp there for also cutting the dmg by ALOT

This is incorrect. The Tooltip for Jabs was originally per Jab. However, ZOS has since switched this Tooltip to an inclusive full channel Tooltip - I believe with either Morrowind or Summerset > If someone can confirm @Checkmath @Cinbri.

Jabs does NOT have a 16-20K Tooltip comprehensive of all 4 Jabs. In PVE with a Tooltip of 4500 DMG (Fully self buffed) I can hit on average 1300-1700 damage PER Jab, depending on if it Crits. In PVP The average hit PER Jab is around 500-800 DMG with an overall Channel DMG amount of 1500-1700.

Then yours my friend is pretty poor, not to be rude, mine hit for 5-6k per hit in pve and 2 to 3k in pvp per jab. But in pvp it's very rare to hit all 4

Would you be willing to post a screenshot or video of the damage numbers? 3-6K is about an average Death Recap Tooltip - but this is not per Jab. Although I could be wrong, pretty sure the changes to the Tooltip for Jabs/Sweeps was posted in one of the Patch Notes.

The dmg is per jab but you have 4 hits for that channel. so if your tooltip is 4k, its 4kx4 = 16k 8if you hit all 4. Each hit has its dmg mitigated and each hit can crit.

All dots work this way, regardless of how the tooltip is structured lol.

usmcjdking wrote: »

The reduction to 1 second is almost pointless. Actually it is pointless. Light attack into jabs will still exceed one second lol. Until you can fit light attack jabs bash into a single GCD the change is borderline meaningless if it still takes up an entire GCD.

Will have to test as now, you're light attack weave can start during the last hit of jabs. If you still can do that, then we might have a little help here. I have a feeling with the animation being shorter, it wont still work like that so it would be more aesthetic than anything.

There also seems to me like jabs already takes longer than it's supposed to but its incredibly hard to time for a couple tenths of a second without human error becoming a factor.

technohic

xaraan wrote: »

My feedback on Templar:

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but same thing I've said before on my Templar Tank - they are still lacking in two areas: utility and Self-healing.

I know it's sounds weird to suggest Templars don't have enough healing, but in way of Tank builds, the lack of a health based self heal really hurts them and keeps them from being useful in end-game hard mode main tank roles. This doesn't even count that missing other tools like the buff ungulfing gives a group, etc. But IMO every class should have a decent health based self heal morph of a skill to use for a tanking role, it's a necessity in some dungeons or trials for a main tank and has kept me from using this tank option for particular runs.

I also feel that the out of class substitutions for chain pulling: silver shards and CCs: time stop are not very practical in comparison and also more expensive than classes that have built in options. Maybe every class should not have the exact same pulls and CCs, but they should offer something to make up for it and Templar Tank do not. There are unique things that could be created, or even re-used, like the old blinding flash to stun mobs for a few seconds could be a good alternative to things like fears, talons, encases that other classes have.

I have also seen some talk about changing their shield to magicka based. I think this is a mistake personally. I guess it doesn't matter if we leave one morph as is, but I use Sun Shield on my magplar instead of annulment and it works great - you get the protection buff, it does damage to anything near you and scales up and even if you cast it alone it is still not far off strength wise from the new nerfed versions of magicka based shields. Personally, if they changed the other morph, I'd probably keep using Sun Shield on my magplar and not only for my Tank.

It would be interesting maybe if the made the health based morph sort of like a health based healing ward? Except making it be for remaining shield strength might suck on a role who is purposely sucking up damage

Joy_Division

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I just looked at the Necromancer skill line. Their healer line is very Templar-like, indeed. But it looks like they also lack a good self-heal. Unless I missed something, they have what's essentially BoL.

It has a Breath of Life like skill that puts minor defile on them but can also heal an additional target by consuming a corpse.

soniku4ikblis

Stx wrote: »

Jabs is honestly really good... on my templar I want to use crushing weapon as my spammable because I like how it looks and heals you but...

Jabs has a much higher tooltip, procs burning light, procs minor protection, gives you major savagery, AND splashes damage.

In PVE, yes.

In PVP, no. Try spending the time during peak hours and use it. The only way your going to hit someone with it is if you force them into your hit box. Otherwise, a good player will strafe your hit box.

That requires a gap closer, a stun, or a root. Which requires you to 2bar staves, light/ice. And also requires you to stick and move gap closer on a DK, because they will simply control you with stun/root spam and make you waste your stamina and destroy you.

No good player will stand in your hit box.

soniku4ikblis

usmcjdking wrote: »

The reduction to 1 second is almost pointless. Actually it is pointless. Light attack into jabs will still exceed one second lol. Until you can fit light attack jabs bash into a single GCD the change is borderline meaningless if it still takes up an entire GCD.

Wasn't jabs on the GCD before Summerset? It had a lower damage amount. Many people were shocked and outraged this change was made.

I never saw one argument that supported a good reason for the change.

Still disappointed.

soniku4ikblis

StarOfElyon wrote: »

I just looked at the Necromancer skill line. Their healer line is very Templar-like, indeed. But it looks like they also lack a good self-heal. Unless I missed something, they have what's essentially BoL.

This^.

Thoroughly disgusted.

soniku4ikblis

I also do not want to hear one more argument about class-significance and sensibility until a developer sits down and realizes that their rule-set is grievously imbalanced.

If this was one my D&D campaigns and I introduced these types of rules or playstyles for a house rule, my players would frown, get up, and walk out of my house lol. Game rules should be appropriated accordingly and not refurbished while lacking a definition.

Destyran

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Syiccal wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Honestly, one of my biggest issues with Templar (Stam or Mag) is lack of Class Skill toolkit. You have to go elsewhere for anything useful. This really limits options with barspace and choice of skills. Because Templars are currently designed to build one bar offensive and one bar defensive you are reducing efficiency of the Class itself.

Burst options require a longer window that is ineffective with no way to really interrupt incoming attacks via CC or interrupt or root and lacks proper defensive skills to truly mitigate huge damage tooltips from other class kits while ensuring this channel for burst.

My personal opinions would be to do the following:
1. Change Rune and morphs to drop the extra resist bonus and combine with sun shield > one being a magicka shield and other being a damage output.
2. Change cleanse to 3 effects on both morphs and add brutality/sorcery for morphs.
3. Change jabs to faster channel with one less strike and make single targeted with aoe splash. Make the target window follow target until channel is over. Currently the lowest spammable tooltip of all classes by a longshot with questionable hit rate...

1) number one makes sense. Anything to get mag scaled dmg shield for our class shield lol.
I just want to have an on-demand shield within Class Skills for Magplar that has the Sun Shield glow effect

2) cleanse is fine; for snares you have to dodge roll cancel purge to see the best benefit and then reposition so you only fight 1-2 players. major sorcery, while important, probably wont be given to cleanse. Spell power pots are the best solution for templar; we can sustain the stam better this patch than the previous 5 years of this game.
I do agree, Stamina is much easier to sustain than before. However, with Templar STILL being the only class to lack Brutality/Sorcery in its toolkit is discouraging. I mentioned changes to somehow force Templar players in to going outside of class skills to get buffs that shouls be otherwise easily obtainable.

3)agreed. jabs should be faster like they did for DW spamable and our jesus beam.

Jabs should be faster, yes. However, the bigger problem is the "Area" effect on the skill that should just be changed to "Target" instead. The skill already has "splash" damage in the form of "X damage to nearby players". Other than that, The highest I could reach for tooltip, either on Jabs or Sweeps, while still being able to adequately play the class is 4500 fully buffed - this tooltip is for overall duration of channel, not per jab. In comparison with other Class spammables they are dealing on average fully buffed 12-15K tooltips.

I'm pretty sure the tool tip is per jab not the entire channel, try on an NPC and you will see this, it's also what it states in the description.
Its low dmg in pvp due to battle spirit and resistances and or other buffs/debuffs

At fullbuff 16- 20k is not a bad tool tip if you count all 4 hits, HOWEVER it's almost never that all 4 hits land in pvp there for also cutting the dmg by ALOT

This is incorrect. The Tooltip for Jabs was originally per Jab. However, ZOS has since switched this Tooltip to an inclusive full channel Tooltip - I believe with either Morrowind or Summerset > If someone can confirm @Checkmath @Cinbri.

Jabs does NOT have a 16-20K Tooltip comprehensive of all 4 Jabs. In PVE with a Tooltip of 4500 DMG (Fully self buffed) I can hit on average 1300-1700 damage PER Jab, depending on if it Crits. In PVP The average hit PER Jab is around 500-800 DMG with an overall Channel DMG amount of 1500-1700.

In overwhelming and Cyrodiils light with continuous I have 7.5kish per jab with eke in pvp gear this is incorrect

Minno

soniku4ikblis wrote: »

I also do not want to hear one more argument about class-significance and sensibility until a developer sits down and realizes that their rule-set is grievously imbalanced.

If this was one my D&D campaigns and I introduced these types of rules or playstyles for a house rule, my players would frown, get up, and walk out of my house lol. Game rules should be appropriated accordingly and not refurbished while lacking a definition.

But you aren't playing D&D, you are playing a game series made famous by literally light attacking dumb AI for decades in a fast paced environment lol.

Either way I think we need to wait till pts to see what they have cooked up for Templar. Much of the news related to non-necro changes have been from 3rd party sources, which either can change by time pts drops or were entirely missed from their memory after a couple of weeks. Or true, but need to test because paper > results.

technohic

So I have played both Magplar and Stamplar tonight in PvP and I will say that magplar feels good outside of roots and snares are awful. Why is it that if someone cleanses eclipse, they get the stun immunity timer but if they cleanse a root, they do not get the root immunity timer?

Why is stamplar possibly the worse healing stam class when it is a templar identity?

If Jabs/sweeps are to be affected by major evasion, the bulk damage should be on secondary targets as much as closest target.

Checkmath

Since everyone is so hyped about necromancers, I thought about doing my part and necroing the thread :P

So any new suggestions, pain points, fantasies, stories or anything else concerning templars?

Drdeath20

For me everything except repentance, both rune moprhs, blazing spear, reflective light and solar barrage could use some tweaking to 1 degree or another.

casparian

It sounds to me like the new snare changes (if they are what we have heard they are) will do virtually nothing to relieve the magplar mobility pain point (i.e., the fact that we have to be either immobile or vampires).

If we get snare immunity after 6 seconds if we haven't purged the snare, that effectively means we only get the benefit of the new snare immunity system if we don't use Extended Ritual (except in cases when Ritual doesn't purge the snare, but who can actually predict that in a real combat situation?) In practice, it sounds like this will be no improvement to templar mobility at all.

Hopefully there is a bit more to the system or in-class mobility tools are introduced. I don't like that Mist Form is essentially part of the magplar identity -- we really ought to be able to get from Point A to Point B without being vampires.

StarOfElyon

casparian wrote: »

It sounds to me like the new snare changes (if they are what we have heard they are) will do virtually nothing to relieve the magplar mobility pain point (i.e., the fact that we have to be either immobile or vampires).

If we get snare immunity after 6 seconds if we haven't purged the snare, that effectively means we only get the benefit of the new snare immunity system if we don't use Extended Ritual (except in cases when Ritual doesn't purge the snare, but who can actually predict that in a real combat situation?) In practice, it sounds like this will be no improvement to templar mobility at all.

Hopefully there is a bit more to the system or in-class mobility tools are introduced. I don't like that Mist Form is essentially part of the magplar identity -- we really ought to be able to get from Point A to Point B without being vampires.

I agree. I don't know why this seems like such a hard thing to fix.

Jabbs_Giggity

Checkmath wrote: »

Since everyone is so hyped about necromancers, I thought about doing my part and necroing the thread :P

So any new suggestions, pain points, fantasies, stories or anything else concerning templars?

Based on the information we have been given about Necromancers, IMO ZOS just created a brand new class to replace Templar completely with a better toolkit and added in some Warden skills...

I do hope that ZOS legitemately addresses these concerns for Templar players and improves, if not completely re-making current Templar tookits to be more fluent.

Biggest two changes that I would like to see with Templar is to change the way Jabs/Sweeps works from an "Area" targeting to a "Target" - making these skills both single target with splash AOE damage.
Other change is to have access to Major Sorcery/Brutality with a Templar skill that is actually used by Templars - we already limit our bar setup with specific skills that have not changed since Tamriel...

Syiccal

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Since everyone is so hyped about necromancers, I thought about doing my part and necroing the thread :P

So any new suggestions, pain points, fantasies, stories or anything else concerning templars?

Based on the information we have been given about Necromancers, IMO ZOS just created a brand new class to replace Templar completely with a better toolkit and added in some Warden skills...

I do hope that ZOS legitemately addresses these concerns for Templar players and improves, if not completely re-making current Templar tookits to be more fluent.

Biggest two changes that I would like to see with Templar is to change the way Jabs/Sweeps works from an "Area" targeting to a "Target" - making these skills both single target with splash AOE damage.
Other change is to have access to Major Sorcery/Brutality with a Templar skill that is actually used by Templars - we already limit our bar setup with specific skills that have not changed since Tamriel...

Fully agree with this

akredon_ESO

I use the term JABS to entail both sweeps and jabs, magick and stamina With that said, I think the whole skill needs to be reworked. I get its a class staple but it just does not compare to other classes and there ability.
If you have LAG or someone who is HIGHLY mobile you are just wasting Magicka or Stamina trying to hit the target. while this was negated some with the increase of the arch of Jabs. I still believe that alot of dps gets lots and then you are just wasting resources. others have suggest it to work like a single target attack with AOE cleave, I completely agree.

I think the cast time needs to be reduced to make it more responsive to the combat. There is also a bug with jabs that i have been experience with jabs were if you light attack after a jab it can cause your skills to bug out and lag and then hit the target very delayed.
a change id like to see with jab is
.5 second cast time, 3 hits x-x damage (damage from 4 gets spread across the 3 other attacks)

Jabbs_Giggity

akredon_ESO wrote: »

I still believe that alot of dps gets lots and then you are just wasting resources. others have suggest it to work like a single target attack with AOE cleave, I completely agree.

a change id like to see with jab is
.5 second cast time, 3 hits x-x damage (damage from 4 gets spread across the 3 other attacks)

Honestly have been sitting here thinking about it...and I would not even be at all opposed to reworking the skill completely to just simply be "Jab a target for x damage. Up to three adjacent targets within 3 meters takes x splash damage". Remove channel and remove additional 3-4 jabs. Skill becomes what we all want it to be...Achilles' Spear thrust! Oh, yea and also allows you to LA weave and animation cancel like every other class...

BAM! Jabs/Sweeps = fixed.

*Edited to include animation cancel disposition.

Cinbri

Checkmath wrote: »

Since everyone is so hyped about necromancers, I thought about doing my part and necroing the thread :P

So any new suggestions, pain points, fantasies, stories or anything else concerning templars?

Unlike necros we don't know about changes of templars, so only thing we can do is patiently wait one more week for pts and only than starting to provide feedback, unlike currently created threads on forum that try to alternate zos vision of skills' equality in favor of their classes.
Main interest for now - are changes of Class abilities as huge as U22 article pretending or does it just empty hype-creating that zos loved to do in the past?
Cleave overhaul is serious change, if all Class skillines treated with same audit (article made accent that Class lines were main lines of this rebalancing) - than there will be a ton of stuff to test this pts.

P.S.: only new idea is backup idea for Dark Flare incase zos dont want to make it instant ability - to treat it as necros major defile skill is. Their skill is delayed effect with instant cast instead of channel/casttime and that is making it already far superior to Flare because necros wont stuck in channel to apply aoe major defile. So, Flare instead of casttime could become same - instant cast ability that "charging" and fire-off in 2.5sec after cast. Anything but not keep it as buggy casttime skill while every other sources of major defiles are instant.

Stibbons

Templar still has many pretty useless skills and morphs:

1. Puncturing strikes both morphs are clunky
2. Piercing javelin bot morphs too costly for efectiveness
3. Focused charge both mophs are just poor
4. Spear shard both morphs should have 1 person good 3 second stun.
5. Sun shield both morphs too weak or just too costly
6. Eclipse both mophs have 1/2 cc and just poor considering they give free cc immunity in many cases.
7. Radiant glory morph should heal more
8. Healing rituan has insane cost!
9. Radiant aura too poor. Secondary effect should be better.
10. All elites are too costly, crap or just weak

That was my pvp perspective.

Elsterchen

@akredon_ESO you may safely scratch the "highly" in "highly mobile targets" ... I lately encountered NPCs in craglorn just simply walking out of jabs.

Targetting with jabs is just terribad.

Else i like to agree on whats said already -> changes are not specific enough to judge + there is a lot of room for improvement when looking at the templars toolkit (... especially when comparing it to whats out (and how it looks on paper) for necros)

Sanguinor2

Already reported it in the templar discord, but how likely is it that a bugfix that allows ritual of Retributions Damage Portion to be able to crit will be in the Elsweyr Patch?
Reporting it in the Bug Report Forumsection had the predictable result of 0 answers.

Vajrak

Pain Point (current): The changes to Hasty Ritual...This spell was my bread and butter, and I have taught others how to use it well, as it was a wide range and amazing cost efficiency, and now it is just terrible.

Minno

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Already reported it in the templar discord, but how likely is it that a bugfix that allows ritual of Retributions Damage Portion to be able to crit will be in the Elsweyr Patch?
Reporting it in the Bug Report Forumsection had the predictable result of 0 answers.

Sadly we have to sit and wait. Its highly possible they will stealth fix it come pts, which they did for things like daedric trickery and things like nightblade crit hit DMG passive (which nightblades got salty and had Templar passive changed the same way lol).

Elsterchen

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

All Active abilities in skill lines other than Class lines will be addressed with the same standardization/audit in future updates.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5944677#Comment_5944677

So i guess, we may refrain from expecting any changes to the templar skill line.

Maybe after ppl tried it and either complained necros are to strong or too weak ... and after adjusting the adjustments thereof, including those changes especially made made for sorcs ... uhm ... lets say players that take fun in the easier ways... ... ...

So yeah in Q4 maybe we might expect some changes, if there isn't something else emerging already in the meantime and the direction of combat is (yet again) not exactly clear to anyone (devs, reps or players alike).

Minno

Elsterchen wrote: »

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

All Active abilities in skill lines other than Class lines will be addressed with the same standardization/audit in future updates.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5944677#Comment_5944677

So i guess, we may refrain from expecting any changes to the templar skill line.

Maybe after ppl tried it and either complained necros are to strong or too weak ... and after adjusting the adjustments thereof, including those changes especially made made for sorcs ... uhm ... lets say players that take fun in the easier ways... ... ...

So yeah in Q4 maybe we might expect some changes, if there isn't something else emerging already in the meantime and the direction of combat is (yet again) not exactly clear to anyone (devs, reps or players alike).

I think you got that flipped around. It sounds like class skills, with some specific weapon abilities are making a first audit for the chapter. Then other items will come in the DLC's that follow the chapter.

ZirconJunkie

I've played almost nothing but a Templar for the past four years, changing back and forth from magicka to stamina at various times to try out different things.

I love the class, but it seems to be gimped at every turn. We've had this idea of the Templar setting down his house and staying in it pushed on us for years, and yet nothing about the class promotes a stationary playstyle in a game where high mobility is a necessity. As a class supposedly designed to be highly stationary, we should be the tankiest because we have to soak up the damage instead of being able to get out of it.

And yet, nerf upon nerf upon nerf has reduced our ability to survive that damage by staying in our house. We lost tankiness when we lost our spell reflect, lost tankiness when we lost our class based major mending, our class damage shield has received multiple nerfs, and jabs/sweeps is highly unreliable as a source of damage if there's even a hint of lag and completely bugs out in high lag situations (even after it was supposed to have been fixed). Playing a magicka Templar feels like playing a gimped magicka Sorcerer. Playing a stamina Templar feels like playing a gimped stamina Warden. Playing a tank feels like playing a gimped Dragonknight.

I suggest:

1) Make Jabs/Sweeps a single target ability with splash damage, instead of a cone channel. This will make the ability a more reliable source of primary damage for melee Templars.

2) Give Empowering Sweep an AOE knockdown and remove Major Protection. This will help with crowd control while we are sitting in our house and increase surivability.

3) Make Sun Shield scale off of the highest resource, whether it's health, magicka, or stamina. This will increase survivability while we are sitting in our house and help keep us in the fight instead of having to constantly go on defence.

4) Reduce the damage of Dark Flare by 25% and remove the cast time. This will give magicka Templars a more reliable class based ranged damage option.

5) Reduce the damage and healing of Eclipse and its morphs by 25%, remove the CC immunity component and the abilty to break free from it. This will increase survivability while we are sitting in our house and help keep us in the fight instead of having to constantly go on defence.

6) Make Unstable Core a stamina morph, with an effect similar to Total Dark. We need more stamina morphs of class abilities that help with survivability.

7) Make Honor The Dead a self only heal.

8) Reduce the cost of Healing Ritual by 50% and make the healing component a 5 second Heal Over Time. Make Ritual Of Rebirth a stamina morph. We need more stamina morphs of class abilities that help with survivability.

9) Make Radiant Aura restore magicka upon repenting corpses and remove minor magicka steal.

10) Remove the DOT from Ritual Of Retribution and instead make it an AOE root upon activation.

11) Remove the channel from Rite Of Passage and its morphs.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

Vajrak

ZirconJunkie wrote: »

I've played almost nothing but a Templar for the past four years, changing back and forth from magicka to stamina at various times to try out different things.

I love the class, but it seems to be gimped at every turn. We've had this idea of the Templar setting down his house and staying in it pushed on us for years, and yet nothing about the class promotes a stationary playstyle in a game where high mobility is a necessity. As a class supposedly designed to be highly stationary, we should be the tankiest because we have to soak up the damage instead of being able to get out of it.

And yet, nerf upon nerf upon nerf has reduced our ability to survive that damage by staying in our house. We lost tankiness when we lost our spell reflect, lost tankiness when we lost our class based major mending, our class damage shield has received multiple nerfs, and jabs/sweeps is highly unreliable as a source of damage if there's even a hint of lag and completely bugs out in high lag situations (even after it was supposed to have been fixed). Playing a magicka Templar feels like playing a gimped magicka Sorcerer. Playing a stamina Templar feels like playing a gimped stamina Warden. Playing a tank feels like playing a gimped Dragonknight.

I suggest:

1) Make Jabs/Sweeps a single target ability with splash damage, instead of a cone channel. This will make the ability a more reliable source of primary damage for melee Templars.

2) Give Empowering Sweep an AOE knockdown and remove Major Protection. This will help with crowd control while we are sitting in our house and increase surivability.

3) Make Sun Shield scale off of the highest resource, whether it's health, magicka, or stamina. This will increase survivability while we are sitting in our house and help keep us in the fight instead of having to constantly go on defence.

4) Reduce the damage of Dark Flare by 25% and remove the cast time. This will give magicka Templars a more reliable class based ranged damage option.

5) Reduce the damage and healing of Eclipse and its morphs by 25%, remove the CC immunity component and the abilty to break free from it. This will increase survivability while we are sitting in our house and help keep us in the fight instead of having to constantly go on defence.

6) Make Unstable Core a stamina morph, with an effect similar to Total Dark. We need more stamina morphs of class abilities that help with survivability.

7) Make Honor The Dead a self only heal.

8) Reduce the cost of Healing Ritual by 50% and make the healing component a 5 second Heal Over Time. Make Ritual Of Rebirth a stamina morph. We need more stamina morphs of class abilities that help with survivability.

9) Make Radiant Aura restore magicka upon repenting corpses and remove minor magicka steal.

10) Remove the DOT from Ritual Of Retribution and instead make it an AOE root upon activation.

11) Remove the channel from Rite Of Passage and its morphs.

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam

1) No. Outright no. It's already a reliable source as long as you aren't in cyro, and in cyro anything can become an issue with lag, not just jabs/sweeps, so again; No.

2) How about "No" on the knock down; the change to Major Protection from its former damage reduction was a big nerf in usefulness and reliability ,and in fact the old version was incredibly useful on a tank or a magplar because the damage reduction applied to damage going to your shields as well. Stop trying to make it a class-variant of Dawnbreaker; if you want that, just use Dawnbreaker---it's fine as is.

3) Sun Shield Scaling, and it's morph potential output is fine; it could use a slight cost adjustment because of it's lower total value when compared to other shields, but overall that is the only real change it needs to perform reliably. Remember you can stack it on itself, and both morphs gain strength with more targets hit.

4) Again, how about "No". You want Dark Flare to be reliable again, drop the Empower effect (which is what used to give it it's power spike) and make it a unique buff to itself, or even to the next Dawn's Wrath ability --- then it becomes a reliable ranged skill again

5) Even with a 25% reduction in it's damage potential, that stands to become overpowered easily if it went onto PvP like that ---if you want that many changes to it including inability to break free, then it needs to be able to be cleansed and a 33% reduction or a straight out debuff with a 40-50% reduction in it's damage reflection --- but even better, why not just lose the skill entirely in it's current form and replace it with something people would actually want -- a ranged hard snare, whether it be single target or aoe, with a magic damage DoT element on it.

6) No. There are already a lot of weapon options to replace class skills when you go Stam based, that is rather the point of being Stamina based instead of Magicka; stop the homogenization.

7) No, because Honor and Breath are both designed to be utilized from the Tank position; if you want to use it on yourself, look up or down away from team for the moment it takes to cast it, problem solved, otherwise it's fine as is.

8) OR how about they just outright revert Healing Ritual --- put the cast time back in, and let it have it's initial burst with 3s later secondary heal for 1/2 value --- that was where a tank had a lot of self and team healing available, plus the ability to give ult to low hp players. It's current iteration is basically useless, even with High recovery instead of a reliable ability it became pure burst. If you really want it to have a tick component, then fit it to the templar model overall -- reduce the cost, and give it initial + 3 ticks of small burst heals so that it still puts out its current value or higher; it does need a cost reduction, but giving it a multiple tick (smaller) burst to go along with Templar HoT (Ritual + Purifying Light) wouldn't be a step in the wrong direction.

9) Could be interesting; it could also be a useful flip that remove the minor magicka steal and make it an Aura (PBAoE, 10m) that grants the equivalent amount of recovery in range (self inclusive) instead, making it useful on melee magplar, tankplar, and healer equally.

10) No, how about instead make it actually RETRIBUTION --- in the Aura HoT as is, but damage is returned to targets that hit you while in the aura (1s CD) for the current values --- fast attacking = more damage, slow attacking=less so it may need some overall adjustment , or even a (relatively high) flat value on the current CD.

11) Indifferent about this one overall, I'd rather see the channel remain but it restore all 3 resources while active, or lacking that, at least grant Major Berserk for 2x the duration of the channel to allies effected by it.

ZirconJunkie

Vajrak wrote:

1) No. Outright no. It's already a reliable source as long as you aren't in cyro, and in cyro anything can become an issue with lag, not just jabs/sweeps, so again; No.

Except it's not all that reliable even in PvE. NPCs walk out of the cone, half of the jab ticks don't even hit in high movement situations such as circling around your target to get out of AOE even though the cross hair is right on target, and there is lag in PvE too, though not as much as in Cyrodiil, which again makes the skill underwhelming. In Cyrodiil, I have no problems using single target abilities in lag like force pulse on a magplar, or even just spamming javelin on a stamplar. Jabs has serious problems that are compounded by lag, which is present at times both in PvE and PvP. What are your suggestions to improve the skill for all areas of the game?

Vajrak wrote:

2) How about "No" on the knock down; the change to Major Protection from its former damage reduction was a big nerf in usefulness and reliability ,and in fact the old version was incredibly useful on a tank or a magplar because the damage reduction applied to damage going to your shields as well. Stop trying to make it a class-variant of Dawnbreaker; if you want that, just use Dawnbreaker---it's fine as is.

Dawnbreaker deals much more damage on the initial hit that Empowering Sweep does, and it also has a DOT that ticks for much longer and for much more. What are your suggestions for making Aedric Spear ultimates more effective for defending our house?

Vajrak wrote:

3) Sun Shield Scaling, and it's morph potential output is fine; it could use a slight cost adjustment because of it's lower total value when compared to other shields, but overall that is the only real change it needs to perform reliably. Remember you can stack it on itself, and both morphs gain strength with more targets hit.

Agree on the cost reduction. It's far too inefficient for what it does.

Vajrak wrote:

4) Again, how about "No". You want Dark Flare to be reliable again, drop the Empower effect (which is what used to give it it's power spike) and make it a unique buff to itself, or even to the next Dawn's Wrath ability --- then it becomes a reliable ranged skill again

The cast time on the skill needs to go. Either that or keep the cast time and make it have a chance to proc an instant cast, similar to crystal fragments.

Vajrak wrote:

5) Even with a 25% reduction in it's damage potential, that stands to become overpowered easily if it went onto PvP like that ---if you want that many changes to it including inability to break free, then it needs to be able to be cleansed and a 33% reduction or a straight out debuff with a 40-50% reduction in it's damage reflection --- but even better, why not just lose the skill entirely in it's current form and replace it with something people would actually want -- a ranged hard snare, whether it be single target or aoe, with a magic damage DoT element on it.

I'd have no issue with Eclipse being able to be cleansed by those who have a cleanse slotted. But being able to be broken as well as giving CC immunity makes the skill pretty underwhelming to use. And we already have a ranged snare with Sun Fire.

Vajrak wrote:

6) No. There are already a lot of weapon options to replace class skills when you go Stam based, that is rather the point of being Stamina based instead of Magicka; stop the homogenization.

Whether I'm focused on stamina or magicka, it'd be great to be able to use our class abilities. Homogenization is what's occurring now with stamina characters because of the lack of useful stamina morphs for our class abilities. Every stamina DPS in PvE uses a bow and Endless Hail, Caltrops, Poison Injection, etc, or dual wield with Rending Slashes, Trap Beast, Vigor, etc. That's homogenization and it's the way stamina classes currently play. There's no diversity. What we need is more useful stamina morphs of our class abilities to retain class uniqueness instead of classes having to go outside their class trees.

Vajrak wrote:

7) No, because Honor and Breath are both designed to be utilized from the Tank position; if you want to use it on yourself, look up or down away from team for the moment it takes to cast it, problem solved, otherwise it's fine as is.

I wasn't aware the devs stated that the design philosophy for Rushed Ceremony and its morphs were to only be used by tanks. I'll have to search for where they said that.

Vajrak wrote:

8) OR how about they just outright revert Healing Ritual --- put the cast time back in, and let it have it's initial burst with 3s later secondary heal for 1/2 value --- that was where a tank had a lot of self and team healing available, plus the ability to give ult to low hp players. It's current iteration is basically useless, even with High recovery instead of a reliable ability it became pure burst. If you really want it to have a tick component, then fit it to the templar model overall -- reduce the cost, and give it initial + 3 ticks of small burst heals so that it still puts out its current value or higher; it does need a cost reduction, but giving it a multiple tick (smaller) burst to go along with Templar HoT (Ritual + Purifying Light) wouldn't be a step in the wrong direction.

Agree.

ZirconJunkie

"ZirconJunkie wrote:

Agree.

Meant to say Disagree, but the forum wouldn't let me edit my post.