[Class Rep] Templar Feedback Thread

Jabbs_Giggity

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Imagine forcing stamina players to use magicka to break free. They wouldn't like it being used so much. Once you break free with stamina as a magicka player, there goes your blocking, dodge rolling, and overall mobility. You can't even run away. It's abused because it works.

This....

Skander

Eclipse shound't proc on dots
Templar should have some kind of stamina sustain for blocking (they have no major expedition and they sprint a lot for this)


The rest seems pretty balanced in my opinion

Checkmath

Skander wrote: »

Eclipse shound't proc on dots
Templar should have some kind of stamina sustain for blocking (they have no major expedition and they sprint a lot for this)


The rest seems pretty balanced in my opinion

If you want stamina sustain for more blocking, sprinting, dodging, then i recommend either to use a stam regen glyph, sets with stamina and stam recovery or to change channeled focus for restoring focus.

Jabbs_Giggity

Skander wrote: »

Eclipse shound't proc on dots
Templar should have some kind of stamina sustain for blocking (they have no major expedition and they sprint a lot for this)


The rest seems pretty balanced in my opinion

Eclipse: Morph 1 is a HARD Stun (1.5/3 sec) + Reduced Area Damage and CC Immunity granted to Target after Break Free or Effect ends. Morph 2 returns health per attack from Target (DoT or DD) reduced health return but does not grant Target CC Immunity until effect ends.

Problem solved...

Qbiken

Would love to see stamplar getting some love when it comes to their healing potential. Losing minor vitality from rune is noticeable to say the least, speaking from a PvP perspective. Compared to their magicka counter part healing is a joke on stamplar, (minor mending is barely noticeable as a buff on stamplar). Comparing stamplar to the other stamina classes healing is severely lacking:

* Stamsorc: While lacking any passives that boosts their healing crit-surge is an absolutely amazing source of healing. Keep hurricane up and you´re good to go.

* StamDK: Easy source of major mending. With the buff to minor brutality stamDK´s can reach insane healing potential in PvP since Vigor synergies so well with high weapon damage. Also got several passives through Dragonic Power skilline to boost their healing even further.

* Stamden: Easy access to major mending. Burst heal through Soothing Spores and Tree ultimate (which is more useful in certain situations than remembrance imo).

* Stamblade: While not having any passives that boosts their healing, cloak and shade provides good ways to avoid incoming damage, and you don´t have to outheal damage if it doesn´t hit you in the first place.

Give stamplar a boost to their healing potential and the class is in a really good spot.

technohic

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Channeled Focus needs to be buffed up big time with a bonus for full-body light armor wearers.

Its in line already as far as defenses other classes has and it gives resource return. Its absolutely fine. Your build would have the same problems on any class that tried to use it. Run the full 5 piece fortified brass or axiom and get yourself a monster set either offensive or defensive depending on which way you go there and whether you want to go full glass or have more defense. And make sure your crit resist is at least 3k IMO if you are going 5 light. Especially if you are not running a full 5 piece defensive set. I'd want even 3k at LEAST even if I am running a defensive monster helm.

Jabbs_Giggity

Checkmath wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Eclipse shound't proc on dots
Templar should have some kind of stamina sustain for blocking (they have no major expedition and they sprint a lot for this)


The rest seems pretty balanced in my opinion

If you want stamina sustain for more blocking, sprinting, dodging, then i recommend either to use a stam regen glyph, sets with stamina and stam recovery or to change channeled focus for restoring focus.

@Checkmath I don't think saying "Use this skill to compensate for this under performing mechanic" is necessarily an optimal solution to the problem. In light armor, especially, you are restricted to low defense and low mobility - okay. However, for a Templar you are also adding LIMITED bar space (due to 3 skills being mandatory on back bar, 4 if you count Mist for mobility...) with Templar DPS generally being trash to begin with so you have to optimize for EITHER damage or defense - neither of which is achieved effectively. Also, if you are on a Magicka Templar and using Rune Focus for stam regen just to be able to block/dodgeroll/break free, etc then you are missing out on mag recov for damage and sustained pressure - NOT even close to optimal trade-off.
The problem that @Skander is trying to point out is that for Magicka characters, in general, it is too difficult to achieve adequate stam pools necessary to utilize Break Free and/or Dodge Roll effectively while still having stamina to block.
He is not saying make Magicka characters able to Perma-Block! He is saying that (In PVP) with CC Immunity broken as all hell and roots having NO cooldown (unless using FM, Shuffle, or for DK's Wings) , you cannot build a Magicka character optimally, let alone a Templar for sustainable damage output AND adequate defense ANDDDDD Stamina.
PVP is so toxic, not sure your schedule of play or preference PVE to PVP, that if you are Stunned and break free, yes you guessed it! You are STUNNED AGAIN, despite a CC Timer and/or are now rooted/immobilized - the combination of using a Break Free THEN another Break Free and/or Dodge Roll will literally kill 98% of most Magicka builds.
Templar now becomes heal bot until the inevitable 0% Magicka/0% Stamina death....

StarOfElyon

technohic wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Channeled Focus needs to be buffed up big time with a bonus for full-body light armor wearers.

Its in line already as far as defenses other classes has and it gives resource return. Its absolutely fine. Your build would have the same problems on any class that tried to use it. Run the full 5 piece fortified brass or axiom and get yourself a monster set either offensive or defensive depending on which way you go there and whether you want to go full glass or have more defense. And make sure your crit resist is at least 3k IMO if you are going 5 light. Especially if you are not running a full 5 piece defensive set. I'd want even 3k at LEAST even if I am running a defensive monster helm.

Everything I have on is impenetrable. What more can I add to buff my crit resistance besides heavy armor? See, my point is to fix light armor, not abandon it. Will glass do it?

Checkmath

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Eclipse shound't proc on dots
Templar should have some kind of stamina sustain for blocking (they have no major expedition and they sprint a lot for this)


The rest seems pretty balanced in my opinion

If you want stamina sustain for more blocking, sprinting, dodging, then i recommend either to use a stam regen glyph, sets with stamina and stam recovery or to change channeled focus for restoring focus.

@Checkmath I don't think saying "Use this skill to compensate for this under performing mechanic" is necessarily an optimal solution to the problem. In light armor, especially, you are restricted to low defense and low mobility - okay. However, for a Templar you are also adding LIMITED bar space (due to 3 skills being mandatory on back bar, 4 if you count Mist for mobility...) with Templar DPS generally being trash to begin with so you have to optimize for EITHER damage or defense - neither of which is achieved effectively. Also, if you are on a Magicka Templar and using Rune Focus for stam regen just to be able to block/dodgeroll/break free, etc then you are missing out on mag recov for damage and sustained pressure - NOT even close to optimal trade-off.
The problem that @Skander is trying to point out is that for Magicka characters, in general, it is too difficult to achieve adequate stam pools necessary to utilize Break Free and/or Dodge Roll effectively while still having stamina to block.
He is not saying make Magicka characters able to Perma-Block! He is saying that (In PVP) with CC Immunity broken as all hell and roots having NO cooldown (unless using FM, Shuffle, or for DK's Wings) , you cannot build a Magicka character optimally, let alone a Templar for sustainable damage output AND adequate defense ANDDDDD Stamina.
PVP is so toxic, not sure your schedule of play or preference PVE to PVP, that if you are Stunned and break free, yes you guessed it! You are STUNNED AGAIN, despite a CC Timer and/or are now rooted/immobilized - the combination of using a Break Free THEN another Break Free and/or Dodge Roll will literally kill 98% of most Magicka builds.
Templar now becomes heal bot until the inevitable 0% Magicka/0% Stamina death....

In my opinion having not enough stamina to do everything like block, dodge and break free is a build problem rather than a class problem. Most magicka classes have in-class skills helping out with their stamina sustain (I do not say here, that you have to use them). Examples are the helping hands passive from dks, repentance for templars, natures gift from warden and so on. A well built magicka character should not struggle with stamina sustain.
I already got called out being a permablocker in duels, when I was on my magplar (which already can not be true due to jabs being a channel) and normally even on a build with zero additional stamregen and without any sturdy traits or whatever, I never felt being short on stamina sustain.
Also there are several good sets out there for magicka classes like shacklebreaker or amberplasm, which provide everything you need.
Comparing the use of resources of stamina and magicka characters does not make sense to me. Especially stamina characters complain a lot, that their main resources is used for not only attacking, also for defense. Changing it, so that stamina characters would need magicka for block, dodge and breaking free would lead to the use of shacklebreaker and battlefield acrobat sets for them.
Or the other way round making it possible for magicka characters to use magicka for block (which is actually possible), dodge and break free would tremendously increase the magicka drain and would lead to even less damage output, because you would need more regen.
Splitting the resources for damage and the defensive mechanism is rather a blessing for magicka and stamina toons (for them they split the resources between utility and offense/defense), since there is always this inherent sustain of both resources and therefore you need to focus less on sustaining them.

Jabbs_Giggity

StarOfElyon wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Channeled Focus needs to be buffed up big time with a bonus for full-body light armor wearers.

Its in line already as far as defenses other classes has and it gives resource return. Its absolutely fine. Your build would have the same problems on any class that tried to use it. Run the full 5 piece fortified brass or axiom and get yourself a monster set either offensive or defensive depending on which way you go there and whether you want to go full glass or have more defense. And make sure your crit resist is at least 3k IMO if you are going 5 light. Especially if you are not running a full 5 piece defensive set. I'd want even 3k at LEAST even if I am running a defensive monster helm.

Everything I have on is impenetrable. What more can I add to buff my crit resistance besides heavy armor? See, my point is to fix light armor, not abandon it. Will glass do it?

Only other way to add Crit Res is by Champion Points or using sets like Impregnable Armor

Checkmath

StarOfElyon wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Channeled Focus needs to be buffed up big time with a bonus for full-body light armor wearers.

Its in line already as far as defenses other classes has and it gives resource return. Its absolutely fine. Your build would have the same problems on any class that tried to use it. Run the full 5 piece fortified brass or axiom and get yourself a monster set either offensive or defensive depending on which way you go there and whether you want to go full glass or have more defense. And make sure your crit resist is at least 3k IMO if you are going 5 light. Especially if you are not running a full 5 piece defensive set. I'd want even 3k at LEAST even if I am running a defensive monster helm.

Everything I have on is impenetrable. What more can I add to buff my crit resistance besides heavy armor? See, my point is to fix light armor, not abandon it. Will glass do it?

Light armor is not weak, it has really strong damage oriented passives. Sure it makes you very vulnerable, if you choose the glass cannon play style, but as soon as you build around a little bit of tankyness (wizards riposte, full set of fortified brass, pirate skeleton, protective jewelry, monsterset pieces with resistances) you will almost get everything: nice damage and tankyness.

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Channeled Focus needs to be buffed up big time with a bonus for full-body light armor wearers.

Its in line already as far as defenses other classes has and it gives resource return. Its absolutely fine. Your build would have the same problems on any class that tried to use it. Run the full 5 piece fortified brass or axiom and get yourself a monster set either offensive or defensive depending on which way you go there and whether you want to go full glass or have more defense. And make sure your crit resist is at least 3k IMO if you are going 5 light. Especially if you are not running a full 5 piece defensive set. I'd want even 3k at LEAST even if I am running a defensive monster helm.

Everything I have on is impenetrable. What more can I add to buff my crit resistance besides heavy armor? See, my point is to fix light armor, not abandon it. Will glass do it?

Only other way to add Crit Res is by Champion Points or using sets like Impregnable Armor

Or the transmutation set.

Jabbs_Giggity

Checkmath wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Eclipse shound't proc on dots
Templar should have some kind of stamina sustain for blocking (they have no major expedition and they sprint a lot for this)


The rest seems pretty balanced in my opinion

If you want stamina sustain for more blocking, sprinting, dodging, then i recommend either to use a stam regen glyph, sets with stamina and stam recovery or to change channeled focus for restoring focus.

@Checkmath I don't think saying "Use this skill to compensate for this under performing mechanic" is necessarily an optimal solution to the problem. In light armor, especially, you are restricted to low defense and low mobility - okay. However, for a Templar you are also adding LIMITED bar space (due to 3 skills being mandatory on back bar, 4 if you count Mist for mobility...) with Templar DPS generally being trash to begin with so you have to optimize for EITHER damage or defense - neither of which is achieved effectively. Also, if you are on a Magicka Templar and using Rune Focus for stam regen just to be able to block/dodgeroll/break free, etc then you are missing out on mag recov for damage and sustained pressure - NOT even close to optimal trade-off.
The problem that @Skander is trying to point out is that for Magicka characters, in general, it is too difficult to achieve adequate stam pools necessary to utilize Break Free and/or Dodge Roll effectively while still having stamina to block.
He is not saying make Magicka characters able to Perma-Block! He is saying that (In PVP) with CC Immunity broken as all hell and roots having NO cooldown (unless using FM, Shuffle, or for DK's Wings) , you cannot build a Magicka character optimally, let alone a Templar for sustainable damage output AND adequate defense ANDDDDD Stamina.
PVP is so toxic, not sure your schedule of play or preference PVE to PVP, that if you are Stunned and break free, yes you guessed it! You are STUNNED AGAIN, despite a CC Timer and/or are now rooted/immobilized - the combination of using a Break Free THEN another Break Free and/or Dodge Roll will literally kill 98% of most Magicka builds.
Templar now becomes heal bot until the inevitable 0% Magicka/0% Stamina death....

In my opinion having not enough stamina to do everything like block, dodge and break free is a build problem rather than a class problem. Most magicka classes have in-class skills helping out with their stamina sustain (I do not say here, that you have to use them). Examples are the helping hands passive from dks, repentance for templars, natures gift from warden and so on. A well built magicka character should not struggle with stamina sustain.
I already got called out being a permablocker in duels, when I was on my magplar (which already can not be true due to jabs being a channel) and normally even on a build with zero additional stamregen and without any sturdy traits or whatever, I never felt being short on stamina sustain.
Also there are several good sets out there for magicka classes like shacklebreaker or amberplasm, which provide everything you need.
Comparing the use of resources of stamina and magicka characters does not make sense to me. Especially stamina characters complain a lot, that their main resources is used for not only attacking, also for defense. Changing it, so that stamina characters would need magicka for block, dodge and breaking free would lead to the use of shacklebreaker and battlefield acrobat sets for them.
Or the other way round making it possible for magicka characters to use magicka for block (which is actually possible), dodge and break free would tremendously increase the magicka drain and would lead to even less damage output, because you would need more regen.
Splitting the resources for damage and the defensive mechanism is rather a blessing for magicka and stamina toons (for them they split the resources between utility and offense/defense), since there is always this inherent sustain of both resources and therefore you need to focus less on sustaining them.

I agree with most of what you are saying, I do not personally have issues with my MagPlar sustain. I run Overwhelming Surge and Shackle Lightning Staff/SnB and Valkyn or Pirate Skeleton 5H/1L/1M - it IS a L2P issue and/or build issue 70%, but to not admit that minimum 30% is game mechanics or lack of adequate Class outline is not true is absurd. However, I was trying to help reiterate the OP's frustration because IMO Break Free cost and Dodge Roll cost in comparison to the broken immunity mechanics AND toxicity of open world Cyrodiil is just too high for both Magicka and Stamina users.
Generally speaking, if I am up against another MagPlar (In PVP - Not Duels) and they are not using the cheese Zaan/Sload/Surge,etc builds I can (On MagDK) CC/Immob/Leap then re-CC/re-Immob IMMEDIATELY and/or Talon CONSTANTLY and whip them to death in the easiest fashion...This does not just go for novice players...I have beaten some exceptional MagPlar players while taking advantage of the broken CC Immun and Immobilize/Roots to drain their Stamina in under 5 seconds. By that time one more immobilize they cannot break free, they cannot heal, they cannot mist, etc....
Unless you are extremely coordinated with another player of similar skill/strategy, you CANNOT solo Cyrodiil as a MagPlar (and now even a StamPlar with jabs being broken as hell - again!)

Checkmath

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Eclipse shound't proc on dots
Templar should have some kind of stamina sustain for blocking (they have no major expedition and they sprint a lot for this)


The rest seems pretty balanced in my opinion

If you want stamina sustain for more blocking, sprinting, dodging, then i recommend either to use a stam regen glyph, sets with stamina and stam recovery or to change channeled focus for restoring focus.

@Checkmath I don't think saying "Use this skill to compensate for this under performing mechanic" is necessarily an optimal solution to the problem. In light armor, especially, you are restricted to low defense and low mobility - okay. However, for a Templar you are also adding LIMITED bar space (due to 3 skills being mandatory on back bar, 4 if you count Mist for mobility...) with Templar DPS generally being trash to begin with so you have to optimize for EITHER damage or defense - neither of which is achieved effectively. Also, if you are on a Magicka Templar and using Rune Focus for stam regen just to be able to block/dodgeroll/break free, etc then you are missing out on mag recov for damage and sustained pressure - NOT even close to optimal trade-off.
The problem that @Skander is trying to point out is that for Magicka characters, in general, it is too difficult to achieve adequate stam pools necessary to utilize Break Free and/or Dodge Roll effectively while still having stamina to block.
He is not saying make Magicka characters able to Perma-Block! He is saying that (In PVP) with CC Immunity broken as all hell and roots having NO cooldown (unless using FM, Shuffle, or for DK's Wings) , you cannot build a Magicka character optimally, let alone a Templar for sustainable damage output AND adequate defense ANDDDDD Stamina.
PVP is so toxic, not sure your schedule of play or preference PVE to PVP, that if you are Stunned and break free, yes you guessed it! You are STUNNED AGAIN, despite a CC Timer and/or are now rooted/immobilized - the combination of using a Break Free THEN another Break Free and/or Dodge Roll will literally kill 98% of most Magicka builds.
Templar now becomes heal bot until the inevitable 0% Magicka/0% Stamina death....

In my opinion having not enough stamina to do everything like block, dodge and break free is a build problem rather than a class problem. Most magicka classes have in-class skills helping out with their stamina sustain (I do not say here, that you have to use them). Examples are the helping hands passive from dks, repentance for templars, natures gift from warden and so on. A well built magicka character should not struggle with stamina sustain.
I already got called out being a permablocker in duels, when I was on my magplar (which already can not be true due to jabs being a channel) and normally even on a build with zero additional stamregen and without any sturdy traits or whatever, I never felt being short on stamina sustain.
Also there are several good sets out there for magicka classes like shacklebreaker or amberplasm, which provide everything you need.
Comparing the use of resources of stamina and magicka characters does not make sense to me. Especially stamina characters complain a lot, that their main resources is used for not only attacking, also for defense. Changing it, so that stamina characters would need magicka for block, dodge and breaking free would lead to the use of shacklebreaker and battlefield acrobat sets for them.
Or the other way round making it possible for magicka characters to use magicka for block (which is actually possible), dodge and break free would tremendously increase the magicka drain and would lead to even less damage output, because you would need more regen.
Splitting the resources for damage and the defensive mechanism is rather a blessing for magicka and stamina toons (for them they split the resources between utility and offense/defense), since there is always this inherent sustain of both resources and therefore you need to focus less on sustaining them.

I agree with most of what you are saying, I do not personally have issues with my MagPlar sustain. I run Overwhelming Surge and Shackle Lightning Staff/SnB and Valkyn or Pirate Skeleton 5H/1L/1M - it IS a L2P issue and/or build issue 70%, but to not admit that minimum 30% is game mechanics or lack of adequate Class outline is not true is absurd. However, I was trying to help reiterate the OP's frustration because IMO Break Free cost and Dodge Roll cost in comparison to the broken immunity mechanics AND toxicity of open world Cyrodiil is just too high for both Magicka and Stamina users.
Generally speaking, if I am up against another MagPlar (In PVP - Not Duels) and they are not using the cheese Zaan/Sload/Surge,etc builds I can (On MagDK) CC/Immob/Leap then re-CC/re-Immob IMMEDIATELY and/or Talon CONSTANTLY and whip them to death in the easiest fashion...This does not just go for novice players...I have beaten some exceptional MagPlar players while taking advantage of the broken CC Immun and Immobilize/Roots to drain their Stamina in under 5 seconds. By that time one more immobilize they cannot break free, they cannot heal, they cannot mist, etc....
Unless you are extremely coordinated with another player of similar skill/strategy, you CANNOT solo Cyrodiil as a MagPlar (and now even a StamPlar with jabs being broken as hell - again!)

So I can not go play solo PvP on magplar...?

Jabbs_Giggity

Checkmath wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Eclipse shound't proc on dots
Templar should have some kind of stamina sustain for blocking (they have no major expedition and they sprint a lot for this)


The rest seems pretty balanced in my opinion

If you want stamina sustain for more blocking, sprinting, dodging, then i recommend either to use a stam regen glyph, sets with stamina and stam recovery or to change channeled focus for restoring focus.

@Checkmath I don't think saying "Use this skill to compensate for this under performing mechanic" is necessarily an optimal solution to the problem. In light armor, especially, you are restricted to low defense and low mobility - okay. However, for a Templar you are also adding LIMITED bar space (due to 3 skills being mandatory on back bar, 4 if you count Mist for mobility...) with Templar DPS generally being trash to begin with so you have to optimize for EITHER damage or defense - neither of which is achieved effectively. Also, if you are on a Magicka Templar and using Rune Focus for stam regen just to be able to block/dodgeroll/break free, etc then you are missing out on mag recov for damage and sustained pressure - NOT even close to optimal trade-off.
The problem that @Skander is trying to point out is that for Magicka characters, in general, it is too difficult to achieve adequate stam pools necessary to utilize Break Free and/or Dodge Roll effectively while still having stamina to block.
He is not saying make Magicka characters able to Perma-Block! He is saying that (In PVP) with CC Immunity broken as all hell and roots having NO cooldown (unless using FM, Shuffle, or for DK's Wings) , you cannot build a Magicka character optimally, let alone a Templar for sustainable damage output AND adequate defense ANDDDDD Stamina.
PVP is so toxic, not sure your schedule of play or preference PVE to PVP, that if you are Stunned and break free, yes you guessed it! You are STUNNED AGAIN, despite a CC Timer and/or are now rooted/immobilized - the combination of using a Break Free THEN another Break Free and/or Dodge Roll will literally kill 98% of most Magicka builds.
Templar now becomes heal bot until the inevitable 0% Magicka/0% Stamina death....

In my opinion having not enough stamina to do everything like block, dodge and break free is a build problem rather than a class problem. Most magicka classes have in-class skills helping out with their stamina sustain (I do not say here, that you have to use them). Examples are the helping hands passive from dks, repentance for templars, natures gift from warden and so on. A well built magicka character should not struggle with stamina sustain.
I already got called out being a permablocker in duels, when I was on my magplar (which already can not be true due to jabs being a channel) and normally even on a build with zero additional stamregen and without any sturdy traits or whatever, I never felt being short on stamina sustain.
Also there are several good sets out there for magicka classes like shacklebreaker or amberplasm, which provide everything you need.
Comparing the use of resources of stamina and magicka characters does not make sense to me. Especially stamina characters complain a lot, that their main resources is used for not only attacking, also for defense. Changing it, so that stamina characters would need magicka for block, dodge and breaking free would lead to the use of shacklebreaker and battlefield acrobat sets for them.
Or the other way round making it possible for magicka characters to use magicka for block (which is actually possible), dodge and break free would tremendously increase the magicka drain and would lead to even less damage output, because you would need more regen.
Splitting the resources for damage and the defensive mechanism is rather a blessing for magicka and stamina toons (for them they split the resources between utility and offense/defense), since there is always this inherent sustain of both resources and therefore you need to focus less on sustaining them.

I agree with most of what you are saying, I do not personally have issues with my MagPlar sustain. I run Overwhelming Surge and Shackle Lightning Staff/SnB and Valkyn or Pirate Skeleton 5H/1L/1M - it IS a L2P issue and/or build issue 70%, but to not admit that minimum 30% is game mechanics or lack of adequate Class outline is not true is absurd. However, I was trying to help reiterate the OP's frustration because IMO Break Free cost and Dodge Roll cost in comparison to the broken immunity mechanics AND toxicity of open world Cyrodiil is just too high for both Magicka and Stamina users.
Generally speaking, if I am up against another MagPlar (In PVP - Not Duels) and they are not using the cheese Zaan/Sload/Surge,etc builds I can (On MagDK) CC/Immob/Leap then re-CC/re-Immob IMMEDIATELY and/or Talon CONSTANTLY and whip them to death in the easiest fashion...This does not just go for novice players...I have beaten some exceptional MagPlar players while taking advantage of the broken CC Immun and Immobilize/Roots to drain their Stamina in under 5 seconds. By that time one more immobilize they cannot break free, they cannot heal, they cannot mist, etc....
Unless you are extremely coordinated with another player of similar skill/strategy, you CANNOT solo Cyrodiil as a MagPlar (and now even a StamPlar with jabs being broken as hell - again!)

So I can not go play solo PvP on magplar...?

Cheeky mate! You can; I did not finish my thought - work stuff and distractions...You cannot solo MagPlar in Open Cyro as you could in previous patches. Right now, with the Tank Meta ball groups = No bueno (For any class) but especially frustrating for Light Armor MagPlars that spec light armor for "In Hopes of" achieving high damage output.

Look I love my Templars, been my mains since day 1. But lately I have been loving my StamBlade and MagDK because the Templar outline is just unplayable in comparison to other classes.
I logged in to my MagPlar the other day for PVP, WOW! I know it has a lot to do with the more-than-normal-laggy servers - still no response from ZOS - but I could not launch ANY skills, not just Templar skills! Relogged after 10 minutes of pressing X or B 5-8 times to get a skill to go off and not being able to bar swap to BEAST MODE HEALBOT....to my StamBlade which had none of these issues with skill delay, etc. Just normal Lag in Cyrodiil for him.
Went to StamPlar later on, same issues as MagPlar skills! Relogged to MagDK, no issues...Not sure if deliberate, or imagination but something is fishy with Templars.

Checkmath

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Eclipse shound't proc on dots
Templar should have some kind of stamina sustain for blocking (they have no major expedition and they sprint a lot for this)


The rest seems pretty balanced in my opinion

If you want stamina sustain for more blocking, sprinting, dodging, then i recommend either to use a stam regen glyph, sets with stamina and stam recovery or to change channeled focus for restoring focus.

@Checkmath I don't think saying "Use this skill to compensate for this under performing mechanic" is necessarily an optimal solution to the problem. In light armor, especially, you are restricted to low defense and low mobility - okay. However, for a Templar you are also adding LIMITED bar space (due to 3 skills being mandatory on back bar, 4 if you count Mist for mobility...) with Templar DPS generally being trash to begin with so you have to optimize for EITHER damage or defense - neither of which is achieved effectively. Also, if you are on a Magicka Templar and using Rune Focus for stam regen just to be able to block/dodgeroll/break free, etc then you are missing out on mag recov for damage and sustained pressure - NOT even close to optimal trade-off.
The problem that @Skander is trying to point out is that for Magicka characters, in general, it is too difficult to achieve adequate stam pools necessary to utilize Break Free and/or Dodge Roll effectively while still having stamina to block.
He is not saying make Magicka characters able to Perma-Block! He is saying that (In PVP) with CC Immunity broken as all hell and roots having NO cooldown (unless using FM, Shuffle, or for DK's Wings) , you cannot build a Magicka character optimally, let alone a Templar for sustainable damage output AND adequate defense ANDDDDD Stamina.
PVP is so toxic, not sure your schedule of play or preference PVE to PVP, that if you are Stunned and break free, yes you guessed it! You are STUNNED AGAIN, despite a CC Timer and/or are now rooted/immobilized - the combination of using a Break Free THEN another Break Free and/or Dodge Roll will literally kill 98% of most Magicka builds.
Templar now becomes heal bot until the inevitable 0% Magicka/0% Stamina death....

In my opinion having not enough stamina to do everything like block, dodge and break free is a build problem rather than a class problem. Most magicka classes have in-class skills helping out with their stamina sustain (I do not say here, that you have to use them). Examples are the helping hands passive from dks, repentance for templars, natures gift from warden and so on. A well built magicka character should not struggle with stamina sustain.
I already got called out being a permablocker in duels, when I was on my magplar (which already can not be true due to jabs being a channel) and normally even on a build with zero additional stamregen and without any sturdy traits or whatever, I never felt being short on stamina sustain.
Also there are several good sets out there for magicka classes like shacklebreaker or amberplasm, which provide everything you need.
Comparing the use of resources of stamina and magicka characters does not make sense to me. Especially stamina characters complain a lot, that their main resources is used for not only attacking, also for defense. Changing it, so that stamina characters would need magicka for block, dodge and breaking free would lead to the use of shacklebreaker and battlefield acrobat sets for them.
Or the other way round making it possible for magicka characters to use magicka for block (which is actually possible), dodge and break free would tremendously increase the magicka drain and would lead to even less damage output, because you would need more regen.
Splitting the resources for damage and the defensive mechanism is rather a blessing for magicka and stamina toons (for them they split the resources between utility and offense/defense), since there is always this inherent sustain of both resources and therefore you need to focus less on sustaining them.

I agree with most of what you are saying, I do not personally have issues with my MagPlar sustain. I run Overwhelming Surge and Shackle Lightning Staff/SnB and Valkyn or Pirate Skeleton 5H/1L/1M - it IS a L2P issue and/or build issue 70%, but to not admit that minimum 30% is game mechanics or lack of adequate Class outline is not true is absurd. However, I was trying to help reiterate the OP's frustration because IMO Break Free cost and Dodge Roll cost in comparison to the broken immunity mechanics AND toxicity of open world Cyrodiil is just too high for both Magicka and Stamina users.
Generally speaking, if I am up against another MagPlar (In PVP - Not Duels) and they are not using the cheese Zaan/Sload/Surge,etc builds I can (On MagDK) CC/Immob/Leap then re-CC/re-Immob IMMEDIATELY and/or Talon CONSTANTLY and whip them to death in the easiest fashion...This does not just go for novice players...I have beaten some exceptional MagPlar players while taking advantage of the broken CC Immun and Immobilize/Roots to drain their Stamina in under 5 seconds. By that time one more immobilize they cannot break free, they cannot heal, they cannot mist, etc....
Unless you are extremely coordinated with another player of similar skill/strategy, you CANNOT solo Cyrodiil as a MagPlar (and now even a StamPlar with jabs being broken as hell - again!)

So I can not go play solo PvP on magplar...?

Cheeky mate! You can; I did not finish my thought - work stuff and distractions...You cannot solo MagPlar in Open Cyro as you could in previous patches. Right now, with the Tank Meta ball groups = No bueno (For any class) but especially frustrating for Light Armor MagPlars that spec light armor for "In Hopes of" achieving high damage output.

Look I love my Templars, been my mains since day 1. But lately I have been loving my StamBlade and MagDK because the Templar outline is just unplayable in comparison to other classes.
I logged in to my MagPlar the other day for PVP, WOW! I know it has a lot to do with the more-than-normal-laggy servers - still no response from ZOS - but I could not launch ANY skills, not just Templar skills! Relogged after 10 minutes of pressing X or B 5-8 times to get a skill to go off and not being able to bar swap to BEAST MODE HEALBOT....to my StamBlade which had none of these issues with skill delay, etc. Just normal Lag in Cyrodiil for him.
Went to StamPlar later on, same issues as MagPlar skills! Relogged to MagDK, no issues...Not sure if deliberate, or imagination but something is fishy with Templars.

So basically the servers are racist towards templars :P

StarOfElyon

I agree with most of what Jabs is saying. My resistance should be enough against most opponents. I'm not at home to check but I think I had around 17000 crit resistance, around 18000 or 19000 spell resistance without the focus rune, and a little above 17000 physical resistance.

If I go anymore tanky I'll lose my spell damage which is a little above 1700 (but I don't think thats counting the 400 that innate axiom adds to my class abilities. And Race Against Time and Vampires Bane add to my mobility and spell crit which is based at about 34%. With Dark Flare I can get around 2200 spell damage, rounding down. If I go any more tanky, my DPS plummets. I need this much just to survive solo and I just try to heal through the damage taken.

But one thing I can't work around is people who abuse CC. 1v1 I can still manage somewhat but when I get outnumbered and both are using CCs it's not even possible to run away after having to overextend on stamina use. This is their plan. It works. Using CC is a cheap way to defeat what little defense magicka players in light armor have. Magicka Templars need one of three things:

1. light armor needs to provide real help against CC snares and roots.

2. better shields so that we can survive being CCd and unable to break free while people beat on our heads.

3. Passives on medium or heavy armor equal to the passives on light armor so they can be like other classes and actually have armor that enhances their abilities.

The MagPlar feels like such a misfit as it is now. I'm pretty sure now that it was not intended to be a solo-able class.

Jabbs_Giggity

Checkmath wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Eclipse shound't proc on dots
Templar should have some kind of stamina sustain for blocking (they have no major expedition and they sprint a lot for this)


The rest seems pretty balanced in my opinion

If you want stamina sustain for more blocking, sprinting, dodging, then i recommend either to use a stam regen glyph, sets with stamina and stam recovery or to change channeled focus for restoring focus.

@Checkmath I don't think saying "Use this skill to compensate for this under performing mechanic" is necessarily an optimal solution to the problem. In light armor, especially, you are restricted to low defense and low mobility - okay. However, for a Templar you are also adding LIMITED bar space (due to 3 skills being mandatory on back bar, 4 if you count Mist for mobility...) with Templar DPS generally being trash to begin with so you have to optimize for EITHER damage or defense - neither of which is achieved effectively. Also, if you are on a Magicka Templar and using Rune Focus for stam regen just to be able to block/dodgeroll/break free, etc then you are missing out on mag recov for damage and sustained pressure - NOT even close to optimal trade-off.
The problem that @Skander is trying to point out is that for Magicka characters, in general, it is too difficult to achieve adequate stam pools necessary to utilize Break Free and/or Dodge Roll effectively while still having stamina to block.
He is not saying make Magicka characters able to Perma-Block! He is saying that (In PVP) with CC Immunity broken as all hell and roots having NO cooldown (unless using FM, Shuffle, or for DK's Wings) , you cannot build a Magicka character optimally, let alone a Templar for sustainable damage output AND adequate defense ANDDDDD Stamina.
PVP is so toxic, not sure your schedule of play or preference PVE to PVP, that if you are Stunned and break free, yes you guessed it! You are STUNNED AGAIN, despite a CC Timer and/or are now rooted/immobilized - the combination of using a Break Free THEN another Break Free and/or Dodge Roll will literally kill 98% of most Magicka builds.
Templar now becomes heal bot until the inevitable 0% Magicka/0% Stamina death....

In my opinion having not enough stamina to do everything like block, dodge and break free is a build problem rather than a class problem. Most magicka classes have in-class skills helping out with their stamina sustain (I do not say here, that you have to use them). Examples are the helping hands passive from dks, repentance for templars, natures gift from warden and so on. A well built magicka character should not struggle with stamina sustain.
I already got called out being a permablocker in duels, when I was on my magplar (which already can not be true due to jabs being a channel) and normally even on a build with zero additional stamregen and without any sturdy traits or whatever, I never felt being short on stamina sustain.
Also there are several good sets out there for magicka classes like shacklebreaker or amberplasm, which provide everything you need.
Comparing the use of resources of stamina and magicka characters does not make sense to me. Especially stamina characters complain a lot, that their main resources is used for not only attacking, also for defense. Changing it, so that stamina characters would need magicka for block, dodge and breaking free would lead to the use of shacklebreaker and battlefield acrobat sets for them.
Or the other way round making it possible for magicka characters to use magicka for block (which is actually possible), dodge and break free would tremendously increase the magicka drain and would lead to even less damage output, because you would need more regen.
Splitting the resources for damage and the defensive mechanism is rather a blessing for magicka and stamina toons (for them they split the resources between utility and offense/defense), since there is always this inherent sustain of both resources and therefore you need to focus less on sustaining them.

I agree with most of what you are saying, I do not personally have issues with my MagPlar sustain. I run Overwhelming Surge and Shackle Lightning Staff/SnB and Valkyn or Pirate Skeleton 5H/1L/1M - it IS a L2P issue and/or build issue 70%, but to not admit that minimum 30% is game mechanics or lack of adequate Class outline is not true is absurd. However, I was trying to help reiterate the OP's frustration because IMO Break Free cost and Dodge Roll cost in comparison to the broken immunity mechanics AND toxicity of open world Cyrodiil is just too high for both Magicka and Stamina users.
Generally speaking, if I am up against another MagPlar (In PVP - Not Duels) and they are not using the cheese Zaan/Sload/Surge,etc builds I can (On MagDK) CC/Immob/Leap then re-CC/re-Immob IMMEDIATELY and/or Talon CONSTANTLY and whip them to death in the easiest fashion...This does not just go for novice players...I have beaten some exceptional MagPlar players while taking advantage of the broken CC Immun and Immobilize/Roots to drain their Stamina in under 5 seconds. By that time one more immobilize they cannot break free, they cannot heal, they cannot mist, etc....
Unless you are extremely coordinated with another player of similar skill/strategy, you CANNOT solo Cyrodiil as a MagPlar (and now even a StamPlar with jabs being broken as hell - again!)

So I can not go play solo PvP on magplar...?

Cheeky mate! You can; I did not finish my thought - work stuff and distractions...You cannot solo MagPlar in Open Cyro as you could in previous patches. Right now, with the Tank Meta ball groups = No bueno (For any class) but especially frustrating for Light Armor MagPlars that spec light armor for "In Hopes of" achieving high damage output.

Look I love my Templars, been my mains since day 1. But lately I have been loving my StamBlade and MagDK because the Templar outline is just unplayable in comparison to other classes.
I logged in to my MagPlar the other day for PVP, WOW! I know it has a lot to do with the more-than-normal-laggy servers - still no response from ZOS - but I could not launch ANY skills, not just Templar skills! Relogged after 10 minutes of pressing X or B 5-8 times to get a skill to go off and not being able to bar swap to BEAST MODE HEALBOT....to my StamBlade which had none of these issues with skill delay, etc. Just normal Lag in Cyrodiil for him.
Went to StamPlar later on, same issues as MagPlar skills! Relogged to MagDK, no issues...Not sure if deliberate, or imagination but something is fishy with Templars.

So basically the servers are racist towards templars :P

It appears so...As I said, I can only give my experiences as an opinionated voice. But to see repeatedly and experience the same skills on ONE class deliberately not work as intended day after day seems off.

Cast Extended Rit - doesn't lay down Rit. Cast Rit again - doesn't lay down Rit (Now I have ermm 9 debuffs active on me). Cast Extended Rit - lays down Rit (WINNING)...Ohh you mean the debuffs I just removed have JUST been reapplied?! Dang.
Sweeps - delayed?! Missing Target?! ALL FOUR TIMES?! *wastes more Magicka on another Sweeps Channel* No effect.
Okay time to Kite; Cast Rune - doesn't lay. Cast Rune - lays, but now I am CC'd with 9+ debuffs. BREAK FREE, MIST, break LoS.
Re-engage LoS to get Major Sorcery up! CC'd again....

I think you get the point...I feel like a Pokemon Trainer using screech against a Charizard using Flame Thrower/Seismic Toss/Every-other-move-combined-into-one!

StarOfElyon

Checkmath wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

Eclipse shound't proc on dots
Templar should have some kind of stamina sustain for blocking (they have no major expedition and they sprint a lot for this)


The rest seems pretty balanced in my opinion

If you want stamina sustain for more blocking, sprinting, dodging, then i recommend either to use a stam regen glyph, sets with stamina and stam recovery or to change channeled focus for restoring focus.

@Checkmath I don't think saying "Use this skill to compensate for this under performing mechanic" is necessarily an optimal solution to the problem. In light armor, especially, you are restricted to low defense and low mobility - okay. However, for a Templar you are also adding LIMITED bar space (due to 3 skills being mandatory on back bar, 4 if you count Mist for mobility...) with Templar DPS generally being trash to begin with so you have to optimize for EITHER damage or defense - neither of which is achieved effectively. Also, if you are on a Magicka Templar and using Rune Focus for stam regen just to be able to block/dodgeroll/break free, etc then you are missing out on mag recov for damage and sustained pressure - NOT even close to optimal trade-off.
The problem that @Skander is trying to point out is that for Magicka characters, in general, it is too difficult to achieve adequate stam pools necessary to utilize Break Free and/or Dodge Roll effectively while still having stamina to block.
He is not saying make Magicka characters able to Perma-Block! He is saying that (In PVP) with CC Immunity broken as all hell and roots having NO cooldown (unless using FM, Shuffle, or for DK's Wings) , you cannot build a Magicka character optimally, let alone a Templar for sustainable damage output AND adequate defense ANDDDDD Stamina.
PVP is so toxic, not sure your schedule of play or preference PVE to PVP, that if you are Stunned and break free, yes you guessed it! You are STUNNED AGAIN, despite a CC Timer and/or are now rooted/immobilized - the combination of using a Break Free THEN another Break Free and/or Dodge Roll will literally kill 98% of most Magicka builds.
Templar now becomes heal bot until the inevitable 0% Magicka/0% Stamina death....

In my opinion having not enough stamina to do everything like block, dodge and break free is a build problem rather than a class problem. Most magicka classes have in-class skills helping out with their stamina sustain (I do not say here, that you have to use them). Examples are the helping hands passive from dks, repentance for templars, natures gift from warden and so on. A well built magicka character should not struggle with stamina sustain.
I already got called out being a permablocker in duels, when I was on my magplar (which already can not be true due to jabs being a channel) and normally even on a build with zero additional stamregen and without any sturdy traits or whatever, I never felt being short on stamina sustain.
Also there are several good sets out there for magicka classes like shacklebreaker or amberplasm, which provide everything you need.
Comparing the use of resources of stamina and magicka characters does not make sense to me. Especially stamina characters complain a lot, that their main resources is used for not only attacking, also for defense. Changing it, so that stamina characters would need magicka for block, dodge and breaking free would lead to the use of shacklebreaker and battlefield acrobat sets for them.
Or the other way round making it possible for magicka characters to use magicka for block (which is actually possible), dodge and break free would tremendously increase the magicka drain and would lead to even less damage output, because you would need more regen.
Splitting the resources for damage and the defensive mechanism is rather a blessing for magicka and stamina toons (for them they split the resources between utility and offense/defense), since there is always this inherent sustain of both resources and therefore you need to focus less on sustaining them.

I agree with most of what you are saying, I do not personally have issues with my MagPlar sustain. I run Overwhelming Surge and Shackle Lightning Staff/SnB and Valkyn or Pirate Skeleton 5H/1L/1M - it IS a L2P issue and/or build issue 70%, but to not admit that minimum 30% is game mechanics or lack of adequate Class outline is not true is absurd. However, I was trying to help reiterate the OP's frustration because IMO Break Free cost and Dodge Roll cost in comparison to the broken immunity mechanics AND toxicity of open world Cyrodiil is just too high for both Magicka and Stamina users.
Generally speaking, if I am up against another MagPlar (In PVP - Not Duels) and they are not using the cheese Zaan/Sload/Surge,etc builds I can (On MagDK) CC/Immob/Leap then re-CC/re-Immob IMMEDIATELY and/or Talon CONSTANTLY and whip them to death in the easiest fashion...This does not just go for novice players...I have beaten some exceptional MagPlar players while taking advantage of the broken CC Immun and Immobilize/Roots to drain their Stamina in under 5 seconds. By that time one more immobilize they cannot break free, they cannot heal, they cannot mist, etc....
Unless you are extremely coordinated with another player of similar skill/strategy, you CANNOT solo Cyrodiil as a MagPlar (and now even a StamPlar with jabs being broken as hell - again!)

So I can not go play solo PvP on magplar...?

Not in light armor.

technohic

StarOfElyon wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Channeled Focus needs to be buffed up big time with a bonus for full-body light armor wearers.

Its in line already as far as defenses other classes has and it gives resource return. Its absolutely fine. Your build would have the same problems on any class that tried to use it. Run the full 5 piece fortified brass or axiom and get yourself a monster set either offensive or defensive depending on which way you go there and whether you want to go full glass or have more defense. And make sure your crit resist is at least 3k IMO if you are going 5 light. Especially if you are not running a full 5 piece defensive set. I'd want even 3k at LEAST even if I am running a defensive monster helm.

Everything I have on is impenetrable. What more can I add to buff my crit resistance besides heavy armor? See, my point is to fix light armor, not abandon it. Will glass do it?

Heavy armor will not boost crit resist. I was speaking of CP based PVP as well. The old standby of 2k crit resist in no-CP would probably do or have to do.

Light armor, I personally would want a defensive set on a templar myself but I know others might not. When I ran my templar magicka, I liked impregnable and bloodspawn on light armor and then some sturdy pieces to help with block. If I were to go glass; I think I would make sure to run mist form (practically a must anyway) and I'd probably go frost staff/1hshield without the passive that causes frost to cost magicka so I can block when defensive and mist when my stam gets low. Getting on the offensive would then be key and the downside here is sweeps can be pretty weak and therefore the heals from it will not support that aggressiveness as much as I would like personally.


And you are not wrong about having to build for stam to support your defenses on magicka weakening you a bit but on my stamblade, I build just as much for magicka as I would stam on a magplar because I rely on cloak and ideally shadow image if it works. My Templar seems to be the least reliant on the off pool right now as I just use it for extended ritual but that can get costly and I cannot spam it. All magicka classes feel a bit weak to me right now due to the lack of evasion in what is currently a seemingly very AOE heavy meta outside of bleeds, and the root and snare spam is real. Its just not really a templar shortcoming though as its more of in general game mechanics problem.

Neoauspex

Templars just need a passive skill that reduces lag by 25% and we'll be in a good place balance-wise

Jabbs_Giggity

@Checkmath I understand your position as a Class Rep and we can bicker day/night. The fact remains that Templars are still considered the weakest classes, even with recent buffs.

I understand that the below URL to another post was made in early 2018, but a lot of what @Joy_Division wrote is spot on 100% accurate and will solve or define nearly EVERY problem Templars have/will have. This Thread (below) was made by another Class Rep and linked in to the Warden Class Rep Thread < That alone should tell you something if another Class Rep is using Templar as a guide to bad programming in other class rep threads.

It is a long read, but worth it 100 times over for every Templar player to read. Maybe even ZoS should start taking notes for once....especially @ZOS_Wrobel !

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/400630/templars-need-reform-because-the-game-has-changed#latest

Minno

Checkmath wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Magicka Templars need stamina perks or better passives for stamina right now. The problem is that defensive maneuvers like blocking, dodge rolling, and breaking free deplete the stamina reserves extremely quickly. Unless ESO wants all magicka templar to switch to heavy armor for the necessary resistances light armor will be done for. I have legendary quality light armor on and even with the rune buff it doesn't do me any good if I can't move at all. I'm just a sitting duck. It's to the point that I don't even bother blocking anymore. I'm just trying to heal through the incoming damage because blocking kills any possibility to break free.

Well I think this might be a build problem. Even on magicka characters blocking is a powerful defense tool, if you want it as such. Magicka characters with a heal staff backbar, like all these magsorcs and mablade builds, do not block much, maybe some hard hitting abilities, but normally rather save their stamina for dodging and breaking free. The same goes for magicka templars. But with a backbar weapon like sword and shield or an ice staff, blocking does not eat up stamina as quickly, which results in blocking being an easy available defensive resource. As a templar, you even have several skills, which can help out to restore stamina outside of heavy attacking. Restoring focus can be used as a stamina restore skill, which restores 240 stamina per second or equal to 480 stamina recovery, even while blocking. Additionally repentance gives a big load of stamina back, if there are some corpses available to repent.

Otherwise I highly recommend the use of protective jewelry or monsterset pieces, which provide additional resistances like chudan, lord warden or pirate skeleton.

But you might be on spot, that templars are generally a slow class. Still there are sources available for templars to move: Extended ritual can remove snares, also mist form is a very frequently used skill by lot of templars to access some escaping tools. Otherwise forward momentum is quite a viable choice to remove snares too. Also with the psychic skill line, everyone has access to a cheap magicka expedition buff, which also reduces sprint costs.

To piggy back off this, for stamina cost, battlefield acrobat isnt a bad set. The 5pc cost reduction works for your mag abilities/ultimates and the stam/stam regen is enough to get you closer to the values you see while having amberplasm slotted (assuming you have your mag regen in a decent place). Going to be running it, especially with resto ultimate.

I think alteration mastery is the better fit here, since its actually a magicka set and still provides the 6% cost redution for everything. At least it will be the better fit, if you are not running some special build like you

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Magicka Templars need stamina perks or better passives for stamina right now. The problem is that defensive maneuvers like blocking, dodge rolling, and breaking free deplete the stamina reserves extremely quickly. Unless ESO wants all magicka templar to switch to heavy armor for the necessary resistances light armor will be done for. I have legendary quality light armor on and even with the rune buff it doesn't do me any good if I can't move at all. I'm just a sitting duck. It's to the point that I don't even bother blocking anymore. I'm just trying to heal through the incoming damage because blocking kills any possibility to break free.

Well I think this might be a build problem. Even on magicka characters blocking is a powerful defense tool, if you want it as such. Magicka characters with a heal staff backbar, like all these magsorcs and mablade builds, do not block much, maybe some hard hitting abilities, but normally rather save their stamina for dodging and breaking free. The same goes for magicka templars. But with a backbar weapon like sword and shield or an ice staff, blocking does not eat up stamina as quickly, which results in blocking being an easy available defensive resource. As a templar, you even have several skills, which can help out to restore stamina outside of heavy attacking. Restoring focus can be used as a stamina restore skill, which restores 240 stamina per second or equal to 480 stamina recovery, even while blocking. Additionally repentance gives a big load of stamina back, if there are some corpses available to repent.

Otherwise I highly recommend the use of protective jewelry or monsterset pieces, which provide additional resistances like chudan, lord warden or pirate skeleton.

But you might be on spot, that templars are generally a slow class. Still there are sources available for templars to move: Extended ritual can remove snares, also mist form is a very frequently used skill by lot of templars to access some escaping tools. Otherwise forward momentum is quite a viable choice to remove snares too. Also with the psychic skill line, everyone has access to a cheap magicka expedition buff, which also reduces sprint costs.

I have sword and shield on the front with all the perks. Restoration on the back with defending trait.
I have a protective necklace.
I also wear two pieces of fortified brass and my restoration staff is fortified brass giving me additional health and resistance for when I'm CC'd.
I also have one psijic skill, race against time to improve my mobility, on that bar which has a perk that gives me an additional damage shield when blocking.
My three pieces of Innate Axiom gives me about 1020 additional stamina.

Mind you, blocking is a last resort. It so happens that when I get CC'd, which is basically when anyone even looks at me, I either spend the stamina breaking free or blockcasting my heals trying to stay alive. But it really feels like I'm delaying the inevitable in those situations.

I don't want to be a vampire. That kind of ruins being a templar.

@StarOfElyon
I would like to know more about your build, since it looks somehow suboptimal, if you wear several non-complete sets (at least it sounds like you do).

Also the rune focus may have benefits, when you stand in it, but is nowhere near a restriction to your mobility. Rune cage provides the normal resistance buff and the sustain buff regardless if you stand in it or not. The benefit of staying inside of the rune is rather small, so I recommend using it like the resistance buffs on other classes: cast it and move on.

Yea because alt mastery gives spell crit so it has extra offense for the mag build. A great set!

Personally, 9/10 im dying because I couldnt block/dodge roll incap due to insufficient stam sustain from all the unblocked CC rolling around. And as an Imperial my stam boost gives me a little extra to save important SD/max mag/sustain on the items I can't afford to give up (offensive 2pc monster sets, staff with ele drain, full SD on jewels, staff heavy attacks, crit mag pots, etc).

But that is just me trying to help explore ways outside of vampire haha.

Edit:
What I will probably run (choose alteration mastery over battlefield and use 2pc bloodspawn or run battlefield with 1pc pirate+1pc kena for the mixed defense/dmg:
https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=108380

StarOfElyon

Yeah, if I have to go vampire just to get around CC spamming I'm going to just play another class. I do still see this as a role playing game. But since the grind is so real I may not feel like doing it again with another character. I may just move on.

Jabbs_Giggity

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Yeah, if I have to go vampire just to get around CC spamming I'm going to just play another class. I do still see this as a role playing game. But since the grind is so real I may not feel like doing it again with another character. I may just move on.

Vampire grind is really not that bad and it's a great utility for mag players. However, it should have a full 5 skill line.
Psijic skill line on the other hand...is aggressive and dumb. Completed on one char and will not do again.

Minno

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Yeah, if I have to go vampire just to get around CC spamming I'm going to just play another class. I do still see this as a role playing game. But since the grind is so real I may not feel like doing it again with another character. I may just move on.

mag/imovable/crit pots. Frees up both vamp and reflective light for something like race against time and solar barrage.

Rest is gear/stat swapping to get what you need.

Jabbs_Giggity

Minno wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Yeah, if I have to go vampire just to get around CC spamming I'm going to just play another class. I do still see this as a role playing game. But since the grind is so real I may not feel like doing it again with another character. I may just move on.

mag/imovable/crit pots. Frees up both vamp and reflective light for something like race against time and solar barrage.

Rest is gear/stat swapping to get what you need.

Agreed, but reflective is the only viable dps on magplar at the moment lol
Race against time is awesome, both mag and stam. Solar barrage is a waste of slot for minimal damage and the change to empower, seeing how templar has really bad weave capabilities. Would work okay if set up with elegant set, but then you can get empower from mages casting degeneration. So still pointless.

StarOfElyon

I mean the grind in ESO in general is so real. Its not fun to grind but I tolerate it for the promise of being competitive. I don't believe being a vampire is good to role play for a templar, personally. Which is why I'd probably just nope out of building another character if Templar is a dead end.

StarOfElyon

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Yeah, if I have to go vampire just to get around CC spamming I'm going to just play another class. I do still see this as a role playing game. But since the grind is so real I may not feel like doing it again with another character. I may just move on.

mag/imovable/crit pots. Frees up both vamp and reflective light for something like race against time and solar barrage.

Rest is gear/stat swapping to get what you need.

Agreed, but reflective is the only viable dps on magplar at the moment lol
Race against time is awesome, both mag and stam. Solar barrage is a waste of slot for minimal damage and the change to empower, seeing how templar has really bad weave capabilities. Would work okay if set up with elegant set, but then you can get empower from mages casting degeneration. So still pointless.

Race against time has improved my experience as a templar more than anything else in the game. It is my most valuable skill. Never coming out of my rotation.

StarOfElyon

So what has been the response to this almost a year later:

Joy_Division wrote: »

Every class needs something like this. I am only doing templars because that’s the class I know best. I could have made a 30 minute video to explain all this stuff. Or write something that takes less than half that time to read. Went for the latter. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @Cinbri @Minno @Ron_Burgundy_79 @Ashamray @Baconlad @usmcjdking @Solariken @danno8 @Hymzir @DisgracefulMind @caeliusstarbreaker @Lexxypwns @dodgehopper_ESO @tinythinker @PenguinInACan Wow so bad at remembering @ names, those awesome templars out there, if I didn't tag you it's my bad, hopefully someone will direct you here. Stamplars, I don't play your spec so I feel uncomfortable commenting directly, though no doubt many issues overlap (how on earth does trying to land jabs on mobile opponents not drive you up a wall?). Please comment and amend where appropriate.

The Glorious Past. Or at least a time when playing a templar was dynamic and distinctive.

Do a Google Search for 2014 ESO skills and abilities. Marvel at what your class used to be able to do. Gasp in horror how much soul was drained from it to feed the “power creep.” I wonder if ZoS comprehends the cumulative effect of just how much they have gutted from the classes we play.

• Puncturing Sweeps stunned targets, had a straight 170% damage bonus, healed for more and those heals used to crit. Now no more stun (instead just a snare), 140% bonus damage subject to diminishing returns, and it heals for much less with no crits.
• Biting Jabs also did 170% bonus damage and stun, along with acting as quasi execute. Now same damage nerf, just snares, and gives a generic buff available elsewhere.
• Focused Charge was fast, responsive, and managed to hit opponents (and dodge-rollers) without the need for unpurgable auto-snare. Now it’s dodgeable, does less damage, and is noticeably slower.
• Spear Shards stunned an opponent, gave me the conscious ability to provide stamina to my allies, and provided way more resources (25% plus X over 10 seconds). Now it doesn’t stun, I do not have a choice what resource it restores, only restores a flat amount (around 3.7K, maybe 10% your current pool), every other class can replicate this once unique ability, and the damage ticks used to be higher and tick twice as fast (thus twice as many Burning Light procs).
• Blazing Shield was once a functional defense shield for all templars as it was based off health, an attribute the game’s mechanics used to encourage us to invest in. Now it’s a suboptimal choice for all templars excepting niche builds that stack max health (and even then, that build has been nerfed out of existence).
• The Piercing Spear passive used to increase Critical Strike [!] chance. Now it increases Critical damage.
• The Balanced Warrior passive used to benefit all templars’ damage. Now it only does so for “stamplars”
• Eclipse use to always reflect just about everything in the game, healed templars while doing so, and exploded on targets. Now it has a shorter duration, reflects nothing, and will only inflict a flat damage Vs. opponents for using some abilities. It now can either only heal or explode.
• Blinding Flashes used to debuff melee opponents with a unique miss chance that proced Off Balance. It’s now gone.
• The Restoring Spirit passive used to restore magicka when casting a Dawn’s Wrath ability. Now it’s just a generic small cost reduction.
• The Remembrance ultimate morph used to provide my allies with damage reduction. Now it doesn’t.
• Breath of Life once had an additional heal and no targeting restrictions.
• Restoring Aura once provided allies (and the templar) a bonus to their stam recovery not available anywhere else in the game. Now it’s just a generic debuff that restores magicka to my allies only if they attack specific targets.
• Repentance once restored health and stamina to the templar and her allies from corpses. Now it’s a situational heal that causes a lot of arguing between templars in the same group as only the caster gains stamina.
• Channeled Focus once provided its magicka return for the entire 18 second duration of the ability. Now, only 8 seconds after leaving the circle.
• Cleansing Ritual used to cleanse debuffs and incoming projectiles. Now, no more projectiles and it has been made more expensive twice.
• Focused Healing passive once gave me a unique 30% healing buff to allies standing in my protective circles. Now this is called Sacred Ground gives an 8% buff if I am standing in my protective circles.
• Mending once passive gave me a higher chance to critically heal a low health target. This has been replaced with a small bonus of up to 12% healing on a low health target (which is way less than a crit).

The nerfing and general elimination of what once made our classes fun and distinctive to play is not exclusive to Templars. All classes can make a similar list. Our classes and abilities we use have become less important as generic percentage bonuses from the Champion System and powerful gear sets unfortunately now define the characters we play.

Of all the updates, only two abilities are a little better today than the Glorious Past: Piercing Javelin (range increased by 8 meters) and Backlash (removed the awful cast-time).

It’s unfortunate that ZoS’s track record of four years is pretty clear: for every improvement is made, it is accompanied by too many nerfs.

Identifying the primary problems with Templars today.

Every class has issues. I don’t like them, but let’s be real: every class needs issues otherwise they have no weaknesses and are OP. So I’m not going to list all the things that drive me nuts about playing Templars, like being so slow that Vampire is deemed necessary to PvP, the whole “I’m on offensive” “now I’m on defense” strict phases of Templar gameplay that make fighting multiple opponents a losing proposition, or that the class’s “passive” resource management comes from active skills we must slot are all frustrating. I’m just going to accept these as necessary drawback for the class.

That being said, there are five problems that plague Templars that have come as a result of how ESO has changed over time. Old assumptions no longer hold true. Old mechanics have become obsolete. Old strengths have become weaknesses. Specially:

1. The Templar “House.”

Wrobel wrote:

I’m more about putting down areas of protection, and I want to stand in these. This is sort of like my house and if you come into my house, it’s going to be bad for you.

This was said over two years ago. It once sort of kind of worked, for PvE anyway.

But the game has changed. ZoS developers have been stressing the importance necessity of movement in all the end-game PvE challenges. All of VMA’s bosses force me to frequently move. If you don’t move, you die.

In PvP, standing your ground was always a dubious concept. Now we have the destro ultimate, something we Templars can’t buy fire insurance for. And Wardens. How can we ignore Wardens?
Templar: “Behold my mighty circles of protection. I dare you to enter my house!”
Warden: *Casts Corrupting Pollen*
Templar: …

2. Magplars are melee DPS and uncompetitive at it.
Compounding this is that Templars are the slowest class (yes DKs are faster), unable to pursue or flee, and some of their key damage skills are easy to avoid.

In PvE, this means Magplars are unwelcome in the DPS role. (They are also unwelcome as tanks. Templars are once again nudged or, for competitive groups, outright thrown, into healer-support).

In PvP, it’s a bit more complex. If Magplars are by design to be immobile, then their “stand your ground” spammable needs to be better otherwise the concept doesn’t work. Puncturing Sweeps damage is weak (especially so for a skill that is relatively easy to avoid) and its heal has been nerfed so many times that it is wise to not count on it. Reform this terrible combination or drop the entire pretense of a slow class with no means of pursuing or disengaging from enemies.

As for why Puncturing Sweeps heals for much less: No more Major Mending. No more “double dipping” into the Champion System (even though damage skills can, yikes, “triple dip”!). Sweeps damage (and thus healing) got nerfed from 170% to 140%. No more critical heals possible. Percentage nerf to the value that Sweeps healed for. Less healing intake due to nerfs in templar healing passives, such as Mending and what was once called Focused Healing. Defile is much more prevalent and powerful. Sweeps heal for less. A lot less.

Aggravating this is that every opponent a Magplar faces has stronger healing than before. All stamina classes now have easy access to Vigor. Stamina Sorcerers can get 2.6K critical heals from Power Surge every second. NBs Siphoning Strikes heal has been buffed and can crit. Wardens have Lotus Flower and Leeching Vines that offer similar healing and can crit. (Why do these heals crit and not Sweeps? Because ZoS says so?)

Here’s where it gets more complicated. Having healing based as a percent of damage is terrible compared to a static value that can crit. My damage is being mitigated by 1,001 factors in today’s ESO that simply did not exist in the Glorious Past: multiple CP stars, gear trivially applying debuffs like maim, cheap defensive ults like Light’s Champion, Monster sets like Pirate Skeleton, BattleSpirit, this on top of player resistances and the new way Impenetrable works. So while my heals are getting reduced by these new mechanics, things like Siphoning Strikes, Leeching Vines, etc. – which can also crit!, are not.

Every DK melee DPS + heal has been buffed (Power Lash lasts twice as long, Deep Breath can hit twice as many targets, Burning Embers always heals – for a lot! – when it is reused or ends, even if cleansed (!). During the Glorious Past, I liked my chances engaging in melee on a Magplar Vs. other experienced players with good builds. Now, it’s a prospect I rather avoid if I can.

The short of this is, Magplars are incapable of pursuit or retreat and thus are stuck dancing to their enemy’s tune. They are easily forced into melee combat and must fight back with low damaging skills that are difficult to hit Vs. experienced players. Who out there is streaming a solo open world Magplar? It’s an exercise in frustration.

3. Mobile Opponents reveal issues with CC and lack of synergy between abilities
We are the slowest class. We have the worst CC options in the entire game. Our bread and butter DPS skills can’t hit mobile opponents. These three characteristics do not belong together.

Here is a fight that that shows why so many templars opt to play the conservative “I’ll heal for a group” build rather than something a bit more daring. Granted, this is against what was the most OP spec in the game (stamina Warden with obligatory overtuned heavy armor “beserker” set), but this fight nevertheless illustrates why Templars struggle in the open world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6efLrTjREc

1. Out of 16 Puncturing Sweeps attacks, I hit 3 – three! – times.[/b] My opponent did not even have to dodge roll! No hits = no incoming healing = no pressure on opponent = you’re dead. The fight was lost right there. Am I supposed to Reflective Light spam people to death?
2. To Javelin or not to Javelin? I could have slotted Javelin and – maybe – stunned him, assuming he didn’t dodge, block, or reflect it (something the other classes need not worry about). OK, then what? He gets knocked out of range of my sweeps and I have to move my slow character to him. And using Javelin means Eclipse won’t function. There is no synergy between Javelin, Eclipse, and Sweeps. So, I don’t use Javelin.
3. The Toppling Conundrum. Instead I use Toppling Charge as my stun, which does have a synergy with Sweeps. Except it got me killed in this fight. Twice I had to back my character up because of the minimum range requirement and twice I got Dizzying Swinged. How would DKs like it if we put a minimum range on Fossilize? I’m guessing they wouldn’t. Welcome to the world of Templars.
4. Skills at cross purposes. There was that time I did get off a Toppling Charge. And it did nothing because the skill is terrible and my opponent had CC immunity even though he was never CCed (I used Eclipse previously). Is there any other class in the game that has to worry about their abilities because they used something else? I also play a sorcerer and it’s pretty simple. Curse, Frags, Fury, Mines, Streak – all of these skills function normally against my opponent no matter which order I use them. In fact, there is actually some synergy between them

If the opponent is mobile, templars are at too much of a disadvantage because they aren’t, their options for impeding the movement of those opponents are nil, and the skill they rely on for damage and heals can’t connect. I don’t want to hear any more about how things will “go bad” for people who enter my house. I want to hear how my skills will actually hit trespassers and worked synergistically.

4. Skills with cast times. Yep, still.
I know the recent Dragon Bones DLC tried to make these easier to use. However, the PvP community has misled ZoS. I didn’t use these skills not because I was afraid of being interrupted. I didn’t use them because most of them just aren’t very good.

If Dark Flare is such an awesome “nuke“ skill, why does no PvE DPS use it? What do I do if a boss mechanic requires me to do something while I am channeling (have you fought St Olms)?

I tried using Solar Barrage in DSA and that lasted a single round because there were too many times I had to dodge, block, and switch targets that I got tired of cancelling this skill. And even when I didn’t have to do any of that, cast-times still disrupt weaving/rotations and the buff the skill provides, empower, is of little use to Templars.

And then there is Healing Ritual…

There are quite a few reasons cast-times are not desirable.

Cast-times carry the chance of interruption by players and, what nobody ever mentions, disruption by PvE bosses/mobs, such that they have to be *really* strong to be used in a competitive environment. And even then, cast-times are a pretty dubious concept because in 2018, weaving is absolutely crucial to playing ESO and skills with cast-times mess up fluid rotations. And as a healer, I have sworn off cast times because it never fails that someone will need immediate heal at the moment I’m using a skill with a cast-time. The concept is a classic case of nice idea, didn’t work out.

Note: Channels are not quite the same. While also a mechanic I’m not fond of, at least these have advantages over normal skills (hit dodge rollers) and they do provide an immediate positive effect so the user is at least guaranteed to accomplish something beneficial and thus a more attractive option

5. The Fun Factor. Templars aren’t nearly as much as before.
It drives me freaking NUTS that every 8 seconds I have to cast Channeled Focus, a skill that has zero active function. This isn’t even in Cyrodiil; it’s in Maelstrom Arena, PVE content!

It is a super frustrating that my class ultimates are so ill-suited for someone who doesn’t want to play a healer-support role that they don’t even merit consideration.

It used to be that Repentance was a really neat skill that rewarded success by infusing allies with a nice heal and a welcome boost of stamina. It was, in short, an excellently designed support skill. Now? Templars in the same group fight over who gets to use this ability because it has become a selfish skill. This is a terrible mechanic. Allies should not be fighting over who gets to use what, period.

I slotted Spear Shards one day in Cyrodiil because I was feeling nostalgic. Wow, what a disappointment.

Etc., etc., etc.

The short of it is Templars cannot play the way they were originally designed because the game now punishes “stand your ground” builds with unavoidable death in PVE and inevitable death in PvP. Templar PVE DPS is a hopeless cause. They take melee spots and get creamed by stamina specs. It’s not like in PvP that DPS is any better. So as a magplar, your melee opponents are going to have higher damage and actual mobility options, which should clear up any mysteries why nobody is out there making money streaming open world solo magplars.

Returning Templars to Glory, or at least making them once again fun to play.

So the solution is easy? Revert all the nerfs!!!

Except ZoS can’t do that. Because the other classes all got nerfed too. So that makes things complicated.

Nerfs create more problems than they solve. And worse, they persist long after the (well-meaninged but incorrect) reasoning for said nerfs become obsolete and outdated. DK standard was nerfed multiple times because the magicka DK was supposedly doing too much damage. Now the DK does not do enough damage and has terrible resource management, yet the nerfs remain. Stop the nerfs. Nerfs are the proverbial dog that keeps chasing its tail.

So here’s a list of suggestions. I try ans indicate where I think my ideas will alter class balance (and thus would necessitate corresponding improvements instead of nerfs to other classes).

Putting the Templar House up for sale.
A player cannot remain stationary and play any content released after Imperial City. It doesn’t work. It gets them killed. So the concept has to go.

The idea that fighting a Templar in close-quarters concept is “going to be bad for you” can work, but this does not have to entail standing in a single spot. If Templars are to be slow, it doesn’t work unless the numerous predators in Cyrodiil at least have to worry about chasing them.

• Rune Focus Buff needs to stay active for full duration. Also, this skill has got to be the most boring ability in the game. It has zero active effects.
• Sun Shield: Skill is dead since removal of soft caps. Sun Shield is not useful unless you run around with 60K health.
  Templars are the only class without (a competitive) means to prevent incoming damage. We used to have three ways to do this (Eclipse, Blinding Flashes, decent scaling Sun Shield). A lot of people are going to suggest making Sun Shield scale off magicka.
  
  No! Boring, generic, Harness magicka already does that, and the last thing the game needs is another damage shield. Two ideas to throw out there: Since Empowering Sweeps is not a worthy ultimate, merge a (toned-down) Empowering Sweeps with Sun Shield’s deterrent to melee attacks (it would be functionally similar to Blade Cloak). Or, reform the old Blinding Flashes skill such that Eric Wrobel “likes” it because we melee builds would like a way to put things off balance, which is what Blinding Flashes used to do. The original design of the class was correct. Fast opponents who chase and attack slow templars should eat damage and debuffs. We need this back.
• The Healing class with no good HoTs. Purifying Ritual is small goes off every 2 seconds. Sweeps requires hitting a target and is overnerfed. Purifying Light is decent but requires melee range Vs. a specific target and goes off every 2 seconds. Our opponents have heals that do not have such restrictions, many of which go off every second. Either give us back our good healing passives that were nerfed or give us a competitive HoT (I’m looking at you Healing Ritual)

Do my changes here disrupt balance? Not terribly. Rune Focus change is one of convenience, not power. One of my Sun Shield changes is based on ZoS own formula for melee PvE DPS (i.e. Blade Cloak). The only thing that’s a buff here is giving a Templar HoTs, but HoTs are necessary to melee. Assuming the other classes are actually improved next update, these changes will not be an issue.

*********************

Making Templars competitive melee DPS.
Unless you want Templars to be just healer-support in competitive PvE and PvP, then this needs to happen. Templar skills suggest high melee AoE, that should be why they are wanted by competitive raid leaders. So let’s make that happen.

• Burning Light (passive) – Huge flaw, it’s cooldown is global, which means it really hurts Templar AoE DPS. Cooldown should be per target, an easy change as it will not affect 1v1 balance.
• Balanced Warrior (passive) – It just increases weapon damage. That’s not “balanced.” That is a relic from a different incarnation of the game, when weapon damage was not exclusive to stamina players. Come on Zos, expert MAGE increases both spell and weapon [!] damage for Sorcerers! This is an obvious and easy reform.
• Solar Barrage: Cast-time ruins it. The Empower bonus is very hard to synergize. The idea behind this skill is solid: please remove the cast-time and provide a buff that is harmonious with Templar gameplay.
• Puncturing Sweeps This ability is the key to both the DPS problem and the House issue. Enemies easily avoid this by simply moving. It’s not a good melee spammable, the heals are now uncompetitive, and right now it looks like there is a borderline game-breaking bug plaguing this skill.
  
  Seriously, this is a HUGE potential problem and having it hang over us with no official comment by Zos is just bad. When I see my combat log showing this:
  
  I am convinced this has to be bugged. I’ve been doing Magplar forever and know what’s typical Sweeps damage and 700 something is not it.
  
• An ultimate worth using: Let’s stop pretending Empowering Sweeps is a “tank” ultimate. Tanks use Warhorn. If someone really wants survival, they are going to use Sword and Shield ultimate or Resto Staff ultimate (both of which also offensive). The idea behind Empowering Sweeps is fine, it’s just too wimpy to be an ultimate and a (toned-down) version should be merged with Sun Shield.
  What should replace this is a pure DPS ultimate. The benchmark is pretty low: make it so a magicka character wouldn’t rather slot the stamina Dawnbreaker of Smiting.

Do my changes effect balance? Yes, but in the correct direction. Templars need a buff here, end of story. Yes I know Sorcs also need better Crystal Frags and Warden Dive needs to do something, now please make your own threads and I’ll hit the insightful button.

*********************

Making Templars fun to play

This is a list of skills/abilities that used to be a lot more fun to use. They were either over-nerfed, are pretty much obsolete considering how the game has changed, or just aren’t very effective.

Focused Charge: The worst gap closer in the game. And it got nerfed.
While I will say it doesn’t bug as often (nice job here), it’s still too sloooooooooooooooooooooooow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyNG4xQhxYM
That was way back in Dark Brotherhood update. Now it’s even slower.

The skill also suffers because it was meant to counter cast-times. Since hardly anyone uses them, I go entire weeks without ever interrupting people and setting them off-balance, which is supposed to be the big appeal for using this skill. Morphs are uninspiring: Focused Charge is easy to avoid and does nothing to CC immune enemies. Explosive Charge does nothing to allow a follow up attack with Sweeps.

@Cinbri has an excellent suggestion:
“I also believe it would be fair and lore-wise to reduce minimal range of our gap-closer - Charge. All class charges united by fact that their minimal range is equal to zero. At least making ours for 2.5 instead of 3.5 would make it a much more reliable, as interrupt aoe or as CC, those that templar really need.
Also our charge is unique coz caster jumping on enemy with its spear, not just charging toward, but still we can't do this in melee coz 3.5 is too big range:
”

This would definitely help. However, skill needs more its damage is too low, the skill’s primary benefit of “off balance” is 99% not applicable, and the morph choices make us choose between two things templars both need to pursue slippery foes. This skill needs to do more to help magplars who want to play aggressively; it’s just a weak damage skill at the moment and too often the Charge/Sweeps combo is pathetic and does nothing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9phL-Auqu1k

Radiant Aura : When this skill was reformed, I thought I’d like it more. However, it has not proven popular. Healers have very few free slots and I’m not going to use Radiant Aura because it is actually inefficient (skill costs 3440 magicka to cast, I need 11 consecutive ticks of steal just to recoop the cost, skill only lasts 15 seconds) in place of Elemental Drain because the latter is free, lasts longer, and applies major breech.

As long as its main purpose is magicka steal, even if improved I don’t think it will be used because Elemental Drain is just better.

Since ZoS has released content that has made movement necessary, I think this morph should reflect that change in the game’s direction. Make it a “fighting withdrawal” ability in which players get some movements benefits, some defensive benefits, and some resource relief (perhaps a short boost and maybe reduce cost for things like dodge or CC break).

Repentance: Welcome to the only ability in ESO that causes allies to argue over who gets to use it. That’s just dumb and should never be a part of any social MMO ever. Period.

I understand people might be uncomfortable that Templars are so much better at returning stamina that other classes won’t be invited to end-game Trials. A few things to consider here.

• Either we have classes that makes us distinctive or drop the pretense of classes altogether. Pick one. Because when you try to be “half pregnant” such that we have classes, yet everyone is the same for everything, you only end up with flavorless, over-nerfed, and uninspiring powers to choose from because of the fear that one class might dare overshadow another at something.
• If we want the Mechanically Challenged guild to invite DKs healer for Trial runs, then the means to have that happen is make it such that DK healers provide something to a group that a templar can’t. Nerfing what we play is not necessary to accomplish this goal.
• Why does my Repentance get nerfed so there can be DK healers, but DK Helping Hands + Chains and Warden Bull Netch + Frozen Device remain potent such that those two classes have a monopoly on tanking?
  As I said, either we have classes that make us distinctive and thus can do things you class can’t or we don’t.

Healing Ritual: Healing Springs gives more healing, can be block-casted, can’t be interrupted, procs every healing set in the game, has a 28 meter range, starts healing immediately, and, most importantly is preventative. It does everything Healing Ritual does and better.

I know Healing Ritual is a full-strength Breath of Life that hits 6 people. Your timing has to be 1000% perfect because if you cast this 0.95 seconds instead of 1 second before incoming damage, you’ll kill your group. Healing Springs avoids this entirely.

Make this a channel. Make this a HoT. Make this buff our group. Make it do something that Healing Springs can’t.

Dark Flare : It may seem to hit hard, but PvEers do *not* use it in their rotations, which means it doesn’t hit hard enough. And it has a cast-time to boot. No thank you. Bring a Warden in you need AoE defile.
Please do something other than make this a Crystal Frag clone.

Spear Shards: Skill’s original design was correct. Why on Tamriel was the CC taken away? Because templars had too many options here??? All this skill is good for now is healer-support retuning resource because its damage is bad compared to comparable like Liquid Lighting (which also has a damage synergy).

Radiant Destruction is not in a good place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYhctNG9FNE

If the skill adequately performs its job in executing low health opponents, PvPers will flood these forums with complaints. That has been proven ever since February 2015 when the skill was introduced and again in February 2016 when the dodge rolling bug was fixed. PvPers are only satisfied when RD is bugged and is terrible.
So, I’d rather have something else. Give me Blinding Flashes back. Give me a decent CC+damage skill other than Javelin. Give me options.

Eclipse is feast or famine. Its effectiveness is dependent on the opponent rather than the Templar.
This spell suffers from a huge flaw in that if your opponent CC breaks it, all you are doing is trading your magicka and a global cooldown for their stamina and a global cooldown, and giving them CC immunity in the process … without actually CCing them. That is not a good exchange. As of right now, 80% of PvPers are not breaking this. When they begin to figure out they can and they should, the value of this skill, especially the Total Dark morph, will decrease by quite a lot.

What I would do is roll the two morphs into one, as the ability used to work. The Total Dark morph heals and has the explosion, that way at least it does something. The Unstable Core morph explodes for the damage it did before the Clockwork City update because there was nothing game breaking about it.

Poor Passives

For the most part, ZoS ignores passives in updates. Except when it comes to Templars. We’re pretty much the only class that you have targeted with some pretty heavy handed nerfs. The only non-Templar passive that has been hit with the nerfhammer is DK’s Battle Roar (Helping Hands is ambiguous as it’s both a buff and a nerf).

What frustrates me the most is that ZoS nerfed the Healing Passives in Templars and did nothing to balance that out by making templars more effective at defending themselves at something other than healing. It was just, “Here’s a nerf, deal with it.” And they are doing it again next patch by removing the healing bonus from Piercing Spear.

Mending: This passive use to increase the critical hit chance up to 15% of Templar heals the lower the health of a target. Now it’s just a flat (boring) up to 12% increase the lower the health. 15% critical chance >>>>> 12% increase
Sacred Ground As for the most nerfed passive in the game, it’s tough to decide between this and DK’s Battle Roar (and these two classes struggle most solo in Open World, not a coincidence). This used to buff my healing down to allies in my “house” by an untyped 30%! And made my Restoring Light spells stronger in that “house.” Then whole stronger spells part was removed. Then the 30% got changed to the generic Major Mending buff, which reduced the bonus healing by 5%, yet that was somehow sold to us as a buff. And then Major Mending was taken away entirely and replaced by another generic buff, “Minor Mending,” which increases healing by a mere 8%. Just terrible.

I've been magplaring since Launch and I look at my combat text pretty much every fight after I die. My typical non-crit Breath of Life used to be about 8K. Now it’s barely 6K. It’s crazy. What exactly does my class do better now than then to counterbalance that? Nothing.
And that’s not even the half of it.



Let’s talk defile, its ridiculously scaling through the CP tree, and how it’s basically impossible for a Templar to fight anyone wearing the Durok’s Bane or any other set that has AoE defile or places it upon receiving damage. I can’t Purify that debuff. I can’t prevent damage because all my skills that did so are gone. Can’t run away + can’t heal through perma-defile = throw computer out the window.

But Joy, these passives were OP and needed a nerf. I mean Templars are still a pain to kill in PvP!
Why is it that our “OP” passives need a nerf and not yours? Magicka Flood, Refreshing Shadows, Accelerated Growth, Power Stone, Energized, Helping Hands, etc., all offer significant bonuses that allow their respective classes to do things that other classes can’t approach. ZoS has taken away my ability to heal, but not your ability to have a large stat pool, a huge influx of resources, your healing, your damage, your ultimate reduction, etc.
Templars are a pain to kill in PvP not because they are templars. But because they are wearing defensive oriented gear, using 1H + shield, are vampires, invest in block, etc., in order to deal with all the nerfs people forced on ZoS so as not to become AP piñatas. Which is pretty sad state of affairs; our class survives not because they are templars, rather via things not on the templars skillset.
All you have accomplished with these nerfs is discourage Templars from using aggressive and thus easier to kill builds. And pretty much ruin templar’s ability to have a chance at trying to open world by themselves.

Restoring Spirit Was restore magicka when activating an ability. Now 4% cost reduction. When this nerf occurred, ZoS promised that they would eventually redo templar in-class resource management. Four years later, the old team that implemented the nerf is gone, the promise forgotten, and Magplars the only class that must spam their armor buff every 8 seconds just to get some semblance of “passive” resource management.

And then there is Light Weaver. This passive is so lackluster, it’s pretty much a waste of skill points to invest in. It extends the duration of a morph hardly any templar uses (Restoring Aura). It grants a conditional 2 ultimate to allies who are healed by a hardly any templar uses (Healing Ritual). It grants an armor bonus to a very situational ultimate (Rite of Passage) that isn’t even used by many templars. Most Templars playing ESO have zero reason to spend points into this ultimate. No other passive in the game is so meaningless (though I will grant Elder Dragon is close). How about make the 2 ultimate granted to allies under 60% health healed by a Restoring Light ability (add a cooldown if you are nice and make Healing Ritual a HoT). There. Now it’s useful for all templars, it’s something to offer to a group that has nothing to do with a DPS parse, and maybe encourage some risk-reward gameplay: templars might want to live dangerous to get some ultimate.

STOP nerfing our passives. I don’t care if they are “bug fixes.” Fine fix the “bug.” But then comprehend the “bug fix” is a net nerf that is further eroding the Templars ability to compete and thus needs some compensation elsewhere.

Five Things Listed above that are most important

1. Legit melee damage, especially Vs. mobile opponents. Sweeps, Solar Barrage, and Focused Charge are all have serious mechanical flaws and two of them are poor damage skills.
   
2. Selling the House for some (competitive) passive defense. This isn’t just something I’d like. It’s something Zos’s own content creators made necessary. Rune Focus, Sun Shield, some sort of HoT are absolutely needed. I don’t need to be fast, but I need snare relief and some sort of repositioning.
   
3. An ultimate that will make people want to play the class and raid leaders invite us to groups. We need a damage ultimate, period. Nova was nice in June 2014, but it is now 99% niche in both PvE and PvP; it needs a huge buff. Only Remembrance, of course the “healer-support” ultimate, gets decent play and even then only for PvP groups.
   
4. Skills need a reboot. Dark Flare, Healing Ritual, Solar Barrage, Sun Shield, and Restoring Aura badly need reform as the game has changed too much to make them much use. Skills like Sweeps, Eclipse, Radiant Destruction, Javelin, and Focused Charge are potentially decent but awkward to use individually and have zero synergy between them.
   
5. Fun, Fun, Fun. Look at the Glorious Past. Look now. Wow. Just wow. That’s not nostalgia. That’s a clear pattern of how the game has changed over the past four years, making the actual characters we play less and less important than the gear we wear and the generic/bland Champion Point percent bonuses we have.

Final Thoughts

I should emphasize that while this post is (very) comprehensive, it's meant more as a guide to how a lot of Templars mechanics no longer match with the direction Elder Scrolls Online has developed. I wouldn't say this is a strict "we need all of this" to compete. Indeed, If we got all of this, Templars would be way too powerful vis-a-vis the other classes. Templars do, however, need some of these things not just for the sake of that elusive "balance," but also many of these mechanics simply don't work in 2018 they were they were envisioned in 2014.

Speaking of that elusive class "balance," I would estimate Templars are pretty much were they have always been, strictly mid-tier. It's not so much that they are weak. Rather, they aren't nearly as interesting to play and their mechanical limitations too heavily impedes their ability to melee DPS or flourish without the protection of a group in open world PvP. I'd love for ZoS to make a number of reforms to make the class so it plays competitively in more than just a healer-support role. Yet, as I noted in the first line of this post, every class needs a similar breakdown.

Jabbs_Giggity

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Yeah, if I have to go vampire just to get around CC spamming I'm going to just play another class. I do still see this as a role playing game. But since the grind is so real I may not feel like doing it again with another character. I may just move on.

mag/imovable/crit pots. Frees up both vamp and reflective light for something like race against time and solar barrage.

Rest is gear/stat swapping to get what you need.

Agreed, but reflective is the only viable dps on magplar at the moment lol
Race against time is awesome, both mag and stam. Solar barrage is a waste of slot for minimal damage and the change to empower, seeing how templar has really bad weave capabilities. Would work okay if set up with elegant set, but then you can get empower from mages casting degeneration. So still pointless.

Race against time has improved my experience as a templar more than anything else in the game. It is my most valuable skill. Never coming out of my rotation.

It's unfortunate, for me at least, that the Psijic Skill line is only known on my StamPlar and I have zero intentions of grinding it again on my MagPlar...