Jewelry Crafting: Get ready for the worst grind in ESO's history

Iselin

With this nonsense they've totally ruined any excitement I felt when it was revealed jewelry crafting was coming.

I could almost - almost - see the extra grind on the basis that they don't want to trivialize the reward tiers of gold/purple/blue they have in the game for different difficulty content or different performance in campaigns.

But the thing is that those same blue/purple/gold tiers apply to all weapons and armor as well as jewelry and as it stands it will be 10 times harder to upgrade jewelry quality.

And even if the above were a legitimate reason to make jewelry harder to upgrade why not just make it a system where drops have a double or triple temper requirement but not crafted jewelry. 10X more for all of it is just ridiculous.

I'm having a really hard time finding anything about this decision that I can understand or respect.

DaveMoeDee

Hymzir wrote: »

Prepare for the grind you say...

No, no I wont. Gonna give it a pass mostly.

I'll level the skill on my main character and learn the traits along the way, but will not waste any of my time on trying to craft anything with it. Not worth the effort or the time. Any mats I'll come across, I will sell or use for furnishing stuff.

Tbh, I will feel the need to do whatever crafting is needed to get all achievements, but no more. That likely means crafting one gold ring at some point.

DaveMoeDee

Nebthet78 wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Do we know how far people have progressed in Jewelry Crafting on the PTS? That will surely give some sort of an answer to how severe the leveling process is, given that Summerset has only been on the PTS for what, three weeks?

There is a fair bit of information regarding how terribly grindy this is on the PTS and just how unhappy a lot of players are about it.
Here's the link to the feedback thread there.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/407070/pts-update-18-feedback-thread-for-jewelry-crafting#latest

The grind is utterly rediculous. In my opinion, I don't think most players would mind if this took twice as long or required twice as many upgrade mats as the other other crafting professions in this game. HOWEVER, most players do mind the 10x requirement, the rarity of the nodes "seams" available in the game and the fact that when deconstrucing, you don't get an actual full upgrade material back, but rather a grain.

If this is rolled out on live, the way it is currently, even with the latest update where they supposedly increased the spawn of the seams, there are going to be A LOT of pissed off players. These forums will be inundated with complaints.

Now, if they had made it so that every single crafting node in the game would give a 50% chance of dropping a grain, in addition to the ore, or clothing node that is there (kind of how the housing mats drop), then it wouldn't be nearly as bad and I could understand the numbers a little bit.

But, considering the fact they are taking what was the most anticipated aspect of Summerset and making it into the worst grind in any game I've ever played, tells me as a company ZOS is soooooo out of touch with it's player base and it's Development Department's balls are being strangled by the Marketing Department, in the worst vice grip you can imagine.

I'm going to be making a crapload of popcorn on release weeks for this game, and then again a few weeks later when this hits consoles because these forums are going to blow up like a Hiroshima bomb hit it. And I'm going to sit back and laugh at ZOS's stupidity because the players on the PTS have told them again and again that the grind is far, far too much.

The only players that are going to have a whole lot of success with this grind, are the BOTS. Have fun competing with them!

PS: This thread will likely get moved and hidden like the other threads complaining about how bad the Jewellery Crafting grind are. ZOS moved them over to the crafting section of the forums where we know most forum members don't even look at.

I just look at recent, so they can put things wherever they want.

DuskMarine

why do people whine so much when zos adds something awesome jeese be glad were getting new content. not to mention why would they just hand you golden bis jewelry

Iselin

DuskMarine wrote: »

why do people whine so much when zos adds something awesome jeese be glad were getting new content. not to mention why would they just hand you golden bis jewelry

Way to miss the point. Too many words, no meme and no video?

leeux

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

<snip>

leeux wrote: »

Nobody remembers what was like when IC came out? How difficult was to acquire vr15 mats back then... vr16 gear didn't drop anywhere, the most you could get is vr15 gear and *only* in IC... until Wrothgar came out there wasn't a single material node for vr15 in the game.

*raises hand* I do - only time I was ever purposely deconning Ornate items, because the mats sold for more than the item would vendor for. IIRC their token change in response to feedback of how horrible it was was to guarantee that each item always dropped one mat. (And only one.) And didn't the nodes in Orsinium only have a 50-50 chance of coming up in the Ruby tier when it was finally added, or am I forgetting?

Yeah that's true, I had completely forgotten... It was changed later that nodes would be tied to your crafting level/character level on a 50/50 basis... at the start, the nodes where just random chance you'd get the actual VR15 mats spawned.

EDIT: reduced the quote to just the content referred in my response.

code65536

BTW, as a point of comparison, if you plan to upgrade a ring piece from white to green via refinement alone, you'll need to refine an average of 1333 raw mats (1333 * 0.015 = 20 grains). If you plan to upgrade a sword from purple to gold via refinement alone, you'll need to refine an average of 1600 raw mats (1600 * 0.005 = 8 alloys).

So the material upgrade cost of jewelry to green is 83% of the grind to upgrade blacksmithing to gold. Of course, green jewelry is easier to find for deconstruction, so you will in practice get some additional mats that way, so the comparison isn't quite exact. But if you're just talking about refinement, think about what's needed to gold an item now, and that'll be close to what it'll be like greening a jewelry item in Summerset, if Summerset goes live as-is.

DaveMoeDee

DuskMarine wrote: »

why do people whine so much when zos adds something awesome jeese be glad were getting new content. not to mention why would they just hand you golden bis jewelry

Seems pretty clear to me why they are complaining.

I think the best response I've read was citing how v15 mats started off. Eventually, the jewelry crafty mats will likely be easier to acquire in the game. But as it stands, it sounds so mind-numbing that it might as well not be a thing.

Not having a hireling really sucks though.

Recremen

DuskMarine wrote: »

why do people whine so much when zos adds something awesome jeese be glad were getting new content. not to mention why would they just hand you golden bis jewelry

You mean like when it shows up on The Golden? Literally the entire PvP set shows up in gold during the Midyear Mayhem event, not to mention the weekly overland sets. The only class of players who currently has exclusive gold jewelry on live are people doing veteran trials, and it's really not a good idea to make this whole system bad just for them when we already are getting a fix for that in the form of imperfect/perfect versions of gear.

Lylith

tedious (tm).

yeah, that's your new word, zos.

get used to hearing it.

DuskMarine

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

why do people whine so much when zos adds something awesome jeese be glad were getting new content. not to mention why would they just hand you golden bis jewelry

Seems pretty clear to me why they are complaining.

I think the best response I've read was citing how v15 mats started off. Eventually, the jewelry crafty mats will likely be easier to acquire in the game. But as it stands, it sounds so mind-numbing that it might as well not be a thing.

Not having a hireling really sucks though.

people have no real right to complain about it. its new content for one. for 2 their not gonna hand us gold jewlery on a silver platter. and for 3 if people are mainly miffed about a dumb hireling look at alchemy that has no hireling and weve all gotten along just fine without it. the hirelings are not that helpful their just a waste of a skillpoint 90% of the time.

DaveMoeDee

DuskMarine wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

why do people whine so much when zos adds something awesome jeese be glad were getting new content. not to mention why would they just hand you golden bis jewelry

Seems pretty clear to me why they are complaining.

I think the best response I've read was citing how v15 mats started off. Eventually, the jewelry crafty mats will likely be easier to acquire in the game. But as it stands, it sounds so mind-numbing that it might as well not be a thing.

Not having a hireling really sucks though.

people have no real right to complain about it. its new content for one. for 2 their not gonna hand us gold jewlery on a silver platter. and for 3 if people are mainly miffed about a dumb hireling look at alchemy that has no hireling and weve all gotten along just fine without it. the hirelings are not that helpful their just a waste of a skillpoint 90% of the time.

Consumers always have a right to complain.

No one asked to have gold jewelry handed on a silver platter. There is a chasm between the current implementation and gold jewelry handed on a single platter.

Alchemy has very low materials requirements for crafting and no rare mats. And we get can get free mats most days on top of that anyway from the Dark Brotherhood dude.

code65536

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

why do people whine so much when zos adds something awesome jeese be glad were getting new content. not to mention why would they just hand you golden bis jewelry

Seems pretty clear to me why they are complaining.

I think the best response I've read was citing how v15 mats started off. Eventually, the jewelry crafty mats will likely be easier to acquire in the game. But as it stands, it sounds so mind-numbing that it might as well not be a thing.

Not having a hireling really sucks though.

I remember the material grind when IC was launched. No harvestable nodes. Mats were available only via Tel-Var purchase (100 TV per mat) or via decon. The only gear that dropped at that level were in IC/WGT/ICP or from bosses (and only bosses) from other group dungeons. Back then, you'd decon ornate items because the mat was worth several times the vendor value.

Prices dropped only slightly through the IC patch, from about 1500g per mat down to a bit under 1000g, which was ridiculous, considering that 130-150 mats were required to craft a single piece of armor. It took the introduction of new material sources in Orsinium--the harvestable nodes--and more sources of deconnable gear--for prices to drop further, but even during the Orsinium patch, it was still better to decon ornate items than to vendor them.

With each new DLC, there were more zones with harvestable notes and enemies that dropped VR15/16 deconnable mats, and the gradual calming of the top-level mat market was entirely the result of this increase of supply sources by ZOS. Eventually, with One Tamriel, it became possible to harvest top-level mats from every zone and get deconnable gear from any enemy.

The point is, people who say that prices will settle down forget this history and don't realize that the settling for the Ruby-level mat prices happened primarily because of drastic changes of sourcing by ZOS. Which is entirely the point of this thread. Without changes in sourcing (e.g., my suggestion of allowing multiple grains to drop from decon/refinement), jewelry crafting as a creation craft will be hamstrung by unrealistic supply levels. (Jewelry crafting will still be useful for transmutation, of course, since that doesn't require any harvestable mats.)

DuskMarine

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

why do people whine so much when zos adds something awesome jeese be glad were getting new content. not to mention why would they just hand you golden bis jewelry

Seems pretty clear to me why they are complaining.

I think the best response I've read was citing how v15 mats started off. Eventually, the jewelry crafty mats will likely be easier to acquire in the game. But as it stands, it sounds so mind-numbing that it might as well not be a thing.

Not having a hireling really sucks though.

people have no real right to complain about it. its new content for one. for 2 their not gonna hand us gold jewlery on a silver platter. and for 3 if people are mainly miffed about a dumb hireling look at alchemy that has no hireling and weve all gotten along just fine without it. the hirelings are not that helpful their just a waste of a skillpoint 90% of the time.

Consumers always have a right to complain.

No one asked to have gold jewelry handed on a silver platter. There is a chasm between the current implementation and gold jewelry handed on a single platter.

Alchemy has very low materials requirements for crafting and no rare mats. And we get can get free mats most days on top of that anyway from the Dark Brotherhood dude.

when their complaining about something they havent even really gotten to try the finished product of yet they dont have a right to complain. do you really think in the end its gonna be that bad. and trust me sure they have a low cost but alchemy takes a ton of mat usage very quickly when your pveing the right way youll go through pots like mad. if they hadnt made them available through telvar in ic people would be crying about that instead of just ponying up and actually putting effort out to play the game........

code65536

DuskMarine wrote: »

when their complaining about something they havent even really gotten to try the finished product of yet they dont have a right to complain. do you really think in the end its gonna be that bad.

I am hoping that when Summerset launches, ZOS will have made adjustments to the sourcing of grains and that this thread will be nothing more than an irrelevant curiosity. You're right, Summerset hasn't launched yet, which is exactly why a thread like this is needed, so that these concerns can be communicated and adjustments made before Summerset launches.

If people wait for Summerset to be finalized and launched before they complain, then my question would be, "Why were you silent when we saw on the PTS what the system looked like?" Of course, if you prefer to bury your head in the sand instead of doing your due diligence, that is your prerogative.

leeux

I do not agree with this myself, but the point is that they seem to want it to be that way at the start. It'll gonna change eventually... and until then, participation in the system will be minimal.

Other developers do different things to avoid the market to be inundated initially... like introducing arbitrary caps per account or per player, or dynamic drop rate changes varying with different criteria...

These developers seems to like this particular method of making sure that the market is not ruined by the initial surge in activity after launch... so they over compensate to be ultra conservative and progressively ease things as time goes.... it's M/O, so to speak

It has always been the case for pretty much any major change they did... only exception is maybe Buoyant Arminger and some furniture plans... maybe? Those are only cases I can think of of things that were not changed to be more accesible over time... even dungeons and HM were nerfed to make them more accesible.

EDIT: typo

DuskMarine

code65536 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

when their complaining about something they havent even really gotten to try the finished product of yet they dont have a right to complain. do you really think in the end its gonna be that bad.

I am hoping that when Summerset launches, ZOS will have made adjustments to the sourcing of grains and that this thread will be nothing more than an irrelevant curiosity. You're right, Summerset hasn't launched yet, which is exactly why a thread like this is needed, so that these concerns can be communicated and adjustments made before Summerset launches.

If people wait for Summerset to be finalized and launched before they complain, then my question would be, "Why were you silent when we saw on the PTS what the system looked like?" Of course, if you prefer to bury your head in the sand instead of doing your due diligence, that is your prerogative.

theres a difference between finished and not finished weve only seen what maybe 3 pages of patch notes worth. according to one of the devs theres still 20 something pages floating around. so were not even sure if the values are put in right their tweaking them every single day. yelling about a grind(that you knew was gonna happen before it was even a thing) you really have zero right to do. now if you cant get ahold of them and stuff like that yea thats a issue but complaining about how grindy it is isnt a valid point. your gonna run into that in any mmorpg no matter how long you wait or how long you sift through the results you search for.

code65536

DuskMarine wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

when their complaining about something they havent even really gotten to try the finished product of yet they dont have a right to complain. do you really think in the end its gonna be that bad.

I am hoping that when Summerset launches, ZOS will have made adjustments to the sourcing of grains and that this thread will be nothing more than an irrelevant curiosity. You're right, Summerset hasn't launched yet, which is exactly why a thread like this is needed, so that these concerns can be communicated and adjustments made before Summerset launches.

If people wait for Summerset to be finalized and launched before they complain, then my question would be, "Why were you silent when we saw on the PTS what the system looked like?" Of course, if you prefer to bury your head in the sand instead of doing your due diligence, that is your prerogative.

theres a difference between finished and not finished weve only seen what maybe 3 pages of patch notes worth. according to one of the devs theres still 20 something pages floating around. so were not even sure if the values are put in right their tweaking them every single day. yelling about a grind(that you knew was gonna happen before it was even a thing) you really have zero right to do. now if you cant get ahold of them and stuff like that yea thats a issue but complaining about how grindy it is isnt a valid point. your gonna run into that in any mmorpg no matter how long you wait or how long you sift through the results you search for.

Um, you realize that we're nearing the close of the third week of PTS, right? There are only two PTS patches left before launch. Have you ever participated in the PTS? I've been a tester during every PTS cycle since the IC PTS in fall 2015.

DuskMarine

code65536 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

when their complaining about something they havent even really gotten to try the finished product of yet they dont have a right to complain. do you really think in the end its gonna be that bad.

I am hoping that when Summerset launches, ZOS will have made adjustments to the sourcing of grains and that this thread will be nothing more than an irrelevant curiosity. You're right, Summerset hasn't launched yet, which is exactly why a thread like this is needed, so that these concerns can be communicated and adjustments made before Summerset launches.

If people wait for Summerset to be finalized and launched before they complain, then my question would be, "Why were you silent when we saw on the PTS what the system looked like?" Of course, if you prefer to bury your head in the sand instead of doing your due diligence, that is your prerogative.

theres a difference between finished and not finished weve only seen what maybe 3 pages of patch notes worth. according to one of the devs theres still 20 something pages floating around. so were not even sure if the values are put in right their tweaking them every single day. yelling about a grind(that you knew was gonna happen before it was even a thing) you really have zero right to do. now if you cant get ahold of them and stuff like that yea thats a issue but complaining about how grindy it is isnt a valid point. your gonna run into that in any mmorpg no matter how long you wait or how long you sift through the results you search for.

Um, you realize that we're nearing the close of the third week of PTS, right? There are only two PTS patches left before launch. Have you ever participated in the PTS? I've been a tester during every PTS cycle since the IC PTS in fall 2015.

actually i am a pts tester and it isnt that bad to me but of course i put forth the effort for the game. im not expecting it to be easy to get ahold of everyone else it seems expects it to be easy as farming regular ore, wood or cloth materials. granted are there bugs yes are there some issues yes. is the grind one of those issues no way. if you can wait close to 6 months to be a 9 trait crafter on everything else you can deal with the grind that jewelry crafting is gonna have knuff said. people just need to stop expecting everything to be easy mmos are not for pure casuals you have to put in the time.

Iluvrien

Meh, I am sure that ZOS will make mats more available as time goes on. I wish they wouldn't though.

Before I go into my primary reason for this there are a couple of other points that need making:

1) People flipped out about the RNG in this game and asked for a token system - That is what this system represents. It is a slow, low-RNG progression towards gold gear. They just applied a token system to a crafting skill.

2) The competitive content crowd that trumpets "keep drops as an incentive to do content" should love this system as it is. Similar gear may well take a similar time requirement to achieve.

3) You need to refine X raw mats to make a gold ring - Most probably, however while you are refining those mats to get gold tempers you will also be getting tempers to upgrade to other levels. So isn't this actually not a "refine X to get a gold rings" but a "refine X to get 1 gold, 2 purple, 3 blue and 4 green rings".


All that said, perhaps 10x is a little much. For me? Not so much. My primary reason for this is crafting itself.

There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet trials.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet dungeons.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet maelstrom arena.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to compete at the highest levels of PvP.

... yet there is an assumption that all players should be able to willing to craft any and all items in the game.

That assumption needs to die in a fire.

If you actually regard crafting as a playstyle in, and of, itself then this system makes perfect sense. The time put into gathering materials, refining, deconning, researching traits is time that a player is not putting into a different activity. The pay-off? Crafted items will have, and retain, high value because of the difficulties inherent in their creation.

You want to do other things with your time? Excellent, don't worry about learning jewelry crafting just buy the final result.

This feels like a crafting system for the Crafters.

BuddyAces

Iselin wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

why do people whine so much when zos adds something awesome jeese be glad were getting new content. not to mention why would they just hand you golden bis jewelry

Way to miss the point. Too many words, no meme and no video?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_burn_centers_in_the_United_States

dem0n1k

I just wanted to be able to craft set jewelry for new characters going into Kyne campaign... instead of my previous practice of keeping dropped jewelry sets every 10 levels. Already the game (for a PVP player) is way too much grind play to be able to play the content I enjoy playing.

I get it though. .. the devs need to make treadmills for the players that enjoy harvesting & grinding. It's just not for me.

Vaoh

Leave it to ZOS to ruin something that would’ve been perfect if just copy/pasted exactly like the other crafts.

Rohamad_Ali

That is a Black Desert type of grind . Really does not belong here . This isn't a Asian MMO .

code65536

Iluvrien wrote: »

Meh, I am sure that ZOS will make mats more available as time goes on. I wish they wouldn't though.

Before I go into my primary reason for this there are a couple of other points that need making:

1) People flipped out about the RNG in this game and asked for a token system - That is what this system represents. It is a slow, low-RNG progression towards gold gear. They just applied a token system to a crafting skill.

2) The competitive content crowd that trumpets "keep drops as an incentive to do content" should love this system as it is. Similar gear may well take a similar time requirement to achieve.

3) You need to refine X raw mats to make a gold ring - Most probably, however while you are refining those mats to get gold tempers you will also be getting tempers to upgrade to other levels. So isn't this actually not a "refine X to get a gold rings" but a "refine X to get 1 gold, 2 purple, 3 blue and 4 green rings".


All that said, perhaps 10x is a little much. For me? Not so much. My primary reason for this is crafting itself.

There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet trials.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet dungeons.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet maelstrom arena.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to compete at the highest levels of PvP.

... yet there is an assumption that all players should be able to willing to craft any and all items in the game.

That assumption needs to die in a fire.

If you actually regard crafting as a playstyle in, and of, itself then this system makes perfect sense. The time put into gathering materials, refining, deconning, researching traits is time that a player is not putting into a different activity. The pay-off? Crafted items will have, and retain, high value because of the difficulties inherent in their creation.

You want to do other things with your time? Excellent, don't worry about learning jewelry crafting just buy the final result.

This feels like a crafting system for the Crafters.

As I said earlier, this system feels inappropriate for the entire spectrum. And that I was quite deliberate in not mentioning gold upgrade until the end of my post. Gold upgrade, frankly, is something that I don't care much about as I have an abundant and easy supply of gold jewelry from vet trials.

As I stated earlier, you need to refine an average of 1.3K raw mats just to upgrade a single jewelry piece to green. In contrast, refining 1.6K raw mats will let you upgrade a blacksmithing piece to gold. How on earth is it appropriate that basic green upgrades are 83% of the grind of existing gold upgrades? Is jewelry crafting supposed to be limited only to the ultra-rich? Only to be used for end-game gear? I suppose the idea of that maybe someone wants to craft useful jewelry for a level 30 character is one that should "die in a fire"? If so, then it's a system that is tragically narrow in scope and usefulness.

Iselin

code65536 wrote: »

As I said earlier, this system feels inappropriate for the entire spectrum.

That's worth repeating. It's not as if jewelry does not already exist in the game with a long and well-established relationship to the other gear slots. If it didn't already exists and they were trying to create a new more powerful and more prestigious item that would be a totally different thing.

But the system they're introducing totally ignores that existing relationship and tries to create a new one but only with respect to crafting. The drops for set jewelry are not being adjusted to bring them in line with this new forced rarity for crafted jewelry. Those drops will be just as common and as trivial as before.

Totally clueless kludge of a new craft.

paulychan

It’s seems like a huge grind.
The debate surrounding the grind reminds me of a situation I saw transpire with another franchise. Said Franchise was a super grindy mmofpsrpg. When the franchise earned its 2, it was changed over to a stripped down and much less grindy version of itself. The skill tree selections were combined into grouped trees and the weapons all static rolls. The community that had complained about the grind now had a shiny new game catering to their hatred of the grind.
They hated it and left the game.
I came here to grind
Maybe just not that much haha

Recremen

Iluvrien wrote: »

Meh, I am sure that ZOS will make mats more available as time goes on. I wish they wouldn't though.

Before I go into my primary reason for this there are a couple of other points that need making:

1) People flipped out about the RNG in this game and asked for a token system - That is what this system represents. It is a slow, low-RNG progression towards gold gear. They just applied a token system to a crafting skill.

2) The competitive content crowd that trumpets "keep drops as an incentive to do content" should love this system as it is. Similar gear may well take a similar time requirement to achieve.

3) You need to refine X raw mats to make a gold ring - Most probably, however while you are refining those mats to get gold tempers you will also be getting tempers to upgrade to other levels. So isn't this actually not a "refine X to get a gold rings" but a "refine X to get 1 gold, 2 purple, 3 blue and 4 green rings".


All that said, perhaps 10x is a little much. For me? Not so much. My primary reason for this is crafting itself.

There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet trials.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet dungeons.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet maelstrom arena.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to compete at the highest levels of PvP.

... yet there is an assumption that all players should be able to willing to craft any and all items in the game.

That assumption needs to die in a fire.

If you actually regard crafting as a playstyle in, and of, itself then this system makes perfect sense. The time put into gathering materials, refining, deconning, researching traits is time that a player is not putting into a different activity. The pay-off? Crafted items will have, and retain, high value because of the difficulties inherent in their creation.

You want to do other things with your time? Excellent, don't worry about learning jewelry crafting just buy the final result.

This feels like a crafting system for the Crafters.

No, as a maxed-out crafter the attempt to make crafting something inaccessible to players doing other things needs to die. This isn't a game where people putting in an effort still should need to engage with specialization of labor. It hasn't been yet and it should never move towards that. The entire history of the game has been to make sure people CAN do All The Things. We aren't limited in which crafts we can learn, we have enough skill points to support a crafting hobby AND multiple other combat skill lines, the entire Outfit system confirms motif learning as a universally-attainable goal, etc. etc. You want to have crafting be something only you can do, go play another game. ESO is here for people who like engaging with multiple game systems.

Iluvrien

Recremen wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Meh, I am sure that ZOS will make mats more available as time goes on. I wish they wouldn't though.

Before I go into my primary reason for this there are a couple of other points that need making:

1) People flipped out about the RNG in this game and asked for a token system - That is what this system represents. It is a slow, low-RNG progression towards gold gear. They just applied a token system to a crafting skill.

2) The competitive content crowd that trumpets "keep drops as an incentive to do content" should love this system as it is. Similar gear may well take a similar time requirement to achieve.

3) You need to refine X raw mats to make a gold ring - Most probably, however while you are refining those mats to get gold tempers you will also be getting tempers to upgrade to other levels. So isn't this actually not a "refine X to get a gold rings" but a "refine X to get 1 gold, 2 purple, 3 blue and 4 green rings".


All that said, perhaps 10x is a little much. For me? Not so much. My primary reason for this is crafting itself.

There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet trials.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet dungeons.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet maelstrom arena.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to compete at the highest levels of PvP.

... yet there is an assumption that all players should be able to willing to craft any and all items in the game.

That assumption needs to die in a fire.

If you actually regard crafting as a playstyle in, and of, itself then this system makes perfect sense. The time put into gathering materials, refining, deconning, researching traits is time that a player is not putting into a different activity. The pay-off? Crafted items will have, and retain, high value because of the difficulties inherent in their creation.

You want to do other things with your time? Excellent, don't worry about learning jewelry crafting just buy the final result.

This feels like a crafting system for the Crafters.

No, as a maxed-out crafter the attempt to make crafting something inaccessible to players doing other things needs to die. This isn't a game where people putting in an effort still should need to engage with specialization of labor. It hasn't been yet and it should never move towards that. The entire history of the game has been to make sure people CAN do All The Things. We aren't limited in which crafts we can learn, we have enough skill points to support a crafting hobby AND multiple other combat skill lines, the entire Outfit system confirms motif learning as a universally-attainable goal, etc. etc. You want to have crafting be something only you can do, go play another game. ESO is here for people who like engaging with multiple game systems.

No. Wrong. Post-launch crafting wants a word with you. Crafting was considerably harder then*. Before the Enchanting changes, writs, intricate items, research scrolls, additional skill points due to DLC and so on.

You are happy with the steps ZOS has taken to trivialise crafting and want that to continue? Fine.

I want this system to reflect how things were, the way there were described in the interviews that got me to trust that ZOS could turn TES into an MMO in the first place.

[*and to suggest it wasn’t is disingenuous at best]

Recremen

Iluvrien wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

Meh, I am sure that ZOS will make mats more available as time goes on. I wish they wouldn't though.

Before I go into my primary reason for this there are a couple of other points that need making:

1) People flipped out about the RNG in this game and asked for a token system - That is what this system represents. It is a slow, low-RNG progression towards gold gear. They just applied a token system to a crafting skill.

2) The competitive content crowd that trumpets "keep drops as an incentive to do content" should love this system as it is. Similar gear may well take a similar time requirement to achieve.

3) You need to refine X raw mats to make a gold ring - Most probably, however while you are refining those mats to get gold tempers you will also be getting tempers to upgrade to other levels. So isn't this actually not a "refine X to get a gold rings" but a "refine X to get 1 gold, 2 purple, 3 blue and 4 green rings".


All that said, perhaps 10x is a little much. For me? Not so much. My primary reason for this is crafting itself.

There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet trials.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet dungeons.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to complete vet maelstrom arena.
There isn't an assumption that all players will be able, or willing, to compete at the highest levels of PvP.

... yet there is an assumption that all players should be able to willing to craft any and all items in the game.

That assumption needs to die in a fire.

If you actually regard crafting as a playstyle in, and of, itself then this system makes perfect sense. The time put into gathering materials, refining, deconning, researching traits is time that a player is not putting into a different activity. The pay-off? Crafted items will have, and retain, high value because of the difficulties inherent in their creation.

You want to do other things with your time? Excellent, don't worry about learning jewelry crafting just buy the final result.

This feels like a crafting system for the Crafters.

No, as a maxed-out crafter the attempt to make crafting something inaccessible to players doing other things needs to die. This isn't a game where people putting in an effort still should need to engage with specialization of labor. It hasn't been yet and it should never move towards that. The entire history of the game has been to make sure people CAN do All The Things. We aren't limited in which crafts we can learn, we have enough skill points to support a crafting hobby AND multiple other combat skill lines, the entire Outfit system confirms motif learning as a universally-attainable goal, etc. etc. You want to have crafting be something only you can do, go play another game. ESO is here for people who like engaging with multiple game systems.

No. Wrong. Post-launch crafting wants a word with you. Crafting was considerably harder then*. Before the Enchanting changes, writs, intricate items, research scrolls, additional skill points due to DLC and so on.

You are happy with the steps ZOS has taken to trivialise crafting and want that to continue? Fine.

I want this system to reflect how things were, the way there were described in the interviews that got me to trust that ZOS could turn TES into an MMO in the first place.

[*and to suggest it wasn’t is disingenuous at best]

Yeah hi I've been here since early access and have been doing crafting the whole time. You're wrong. We've always had enough skill points to do all crafts plus combat things. We used to have to make some "hard" choices about which specific weapons we wanted to use, but it wasn't that bad. Enchanting was "hard" to level up in that you had to put a decent amount of effort in, but it wasn't that bad. I had it fully leveled without issue and now have it fully leveled on 15 characters.

"Trivialize crafting" as if getting all motifs and all traits on all crafts or learning all recipes is trivial, lol. It's an enormous grind and requires either engaging in multiple content types yourself (PvP, PvE) or buying it at a high cost from others. Get out of here with that noise, it's plain as day that become a master crafter is still a huge investment.

Citation needed regarding the interviews implying that you wouldn't be able to craft and do other content, btw. I never heard any of that and I followed this game quite diligently.