PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Psijic Order Skill Line

Aznox

mpower + Imbue + light attack seems like too great a combo for ganking

Someone already confirmed the imbue added damage was a separate tick and thus was not increased by empower.

Too easy to exploit, too hard to take advantage of in light attack weaving.

I don't see why it would be harder to weave than any other skill, it's just sometimes your target will be dead before your next light attack but thats not really a problem and it is taken into account in the balance of the skill

Carbonised

Aznox wrote: »

mpower + Imbue + light attack seems like too great a combo for ganking

Someone already confirmed the imbue added damage was a separate tick and thus was not increased by empower.

Too easy to exploit, too hard to take advantage of in light attack weaving.

I don't see why it would be harder to weave than any other skill, it's just sometimes your target will be dead before your next light attack but thats not really a problem and it is taken into account in the balance of the skill

I know that empower only empowers your light attack, but it still means you can land basically 3 damage effects at the same time on a player, even more if you factor in item proc damage or poison procs.

When the light attack lands it will: Be increased in damage since they buffed light attack damage + be empowered, which has been increased in damage as well + have the added damage of the Imbue skill + proc whichever item proc sets and/or enchants and poisons you use. That's too much burst damage instantly from simply landing 1 attack, and the gank potential is even higher than on live.

Derra

Seraphayel wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Imbue Weapons 2 second duration is short and there will be absolutely times when people cast the skill and are unable to use it and waste their resources. Stuns, PvE mechanics, cast-times, necessitated move or dodge, etc. Making it 3 would keep the same intent of a quick buff but be more forgiving.

I´m highly against increasing the time as this would mean creating the possibility of 100% unwanted combinations like:
Imbue (1s gcd) snipe (1.2s cast) lightattack PI => poof
Imbue (1s gcd) darkflare (1.1s cast) lightattack javelin => poof
Imbue (1s gcd) runecage (1s gcd) overload =>poof

The 2s time window is chosen very carefully to not allow for ultra high burst combinations with casttime abilities.

Also it definetly needs to be fixed to not work on overload lightattacks. That´s broken either way but a longer timer would allow it to be used in combination with runecage which would also make it a guaranteed hit. Not. Good.

@Joy_Division

Then just split the damage in half and make it usable on the next two light attacks within 6-10 seconds.

In its recent version the skill sounds nice but in reality is too clunky because of the server and lag/delay issues. A skill like that works in a game that's technically on point. ESO isn't.

That does not work when looking at it from the perspective of being an alternative to pulse/funnel/whip/concealed etc.

It needs to be castable every gcd to fill that role.

I feel the skill is in a good spot given proper execution of lightattacks - it could be made smoother to weave but that´s about it.
@Aznox - the skill is currently on par with funnel health in terms of clunky weaving animation. It takes getting used to.

However i´m playing from EU and I´ve managed to get it down to 95% reliable weaves within playing for an hour with it and getting accustomed to the animation in a 200 to 350 ping scenario. It´s definetly manageable.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. Magica users currently may choose 7 out of 8 skills with no thought about spending anything "extra" in stamina.

No matter how many times you state this, you are looking at this wrong. The skills are separated by role. Full stop. You are wrong looking at them any other way.

And the mods removing my other comments stating this is very frustrating. This guy is wrong. Like so wrong it hurts me to read his comments. He is adding nothing to the "discussion". Why don't you remove his comments because his comments have nothing to do with the way the skill line actually works.

Carbonised

Derra wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Imbue Weapons 2 second duration is short and there will be absolutely times when people cast the skill and are unable to use it and waste their resources. Stuns, PvE mechanics, cast-times, necessitated move or dodge, etc. Making it 3 would keep the same intent of a quick buff but be more forgiving.

I´m highly against increasing the time as this would mean creating the possibility of 100% unwanted combinations like:
Imbue (1s gcd) snipe (1.2s cast) lightattack PI => poof
Imbue (1s gcd) darkflare (1.1s cast) lightattack javelin => poof
Imbue (1s gcd) runecage (1s gcd) overload =>poof

The 2s time window is chosen very carefully to not allow for ultra high burst combinations with casttime abilities.

Also it definetly needs to be fixed to not work on overload lightattacks. That´s broken either way but a longer timer would allow it to be used in combination with runecage which would also make it a guaranteed hit. Not. Good.

@Joy_Division

Then just split the damage in half and make it usable on the next two light attacks within 6-10 seconds.

In its recent version the skill sounds nice but in reality is too clunky because of the server and lag/delay issues. A skill like that works in a game that's technically on point. ESO isn't.

That does not work when looking at it from the perspective of being an alternative to pulse/funnel/whip/concealed etc.

It needs to be castable every gcd to fill that role.

I feel the skill is in a good spot given proper execution of lightattacks - it could be made smoother to weave but that´s about it.
@Aznox - the skill is currently on par with funnel health in terms of clunky weaving animation. It takes getting used to.

However i´m playing from EU and I´ve managed to get it down to 95% reliable weaves within playing for an hour with it and getting accustomed to the animation in a 200 to 350 ping scenario. It´s definetly manageable.

It doesn't necessarily need to be that. You could alternate between Imbue and another spamable, so Imbue + light attack + another spamable + light attack = repeat

Perhaps not the perfect solution, but I do worry that the ganking potential of using a single light attack is going to be too large, especially with the boosts to empower and to light attacks already on the PTS. PvP is already plagued by combos where you land a massive amount of attacks and procs on your enemy instantly, and it's what deters a lot of people from participating in PvP. I don't think we need more incentives for bow gankers to hit a person with 4-5 abilities from sneak on a single light attack.

In this vein, it is also worrysome that Imbue works on your next light attack, even when that light attack has already been fired from a ranged weapon. Too easy to exploit for 1-2 combos, and bow light attacks can't even be reflected or absorbed, unlike staff attacks.
At least they could make it work on the next light attack you actually fire off, and not make it work on light attacks that are already on their way to the target.

Aznox

Derra wrote: »

I feel the skill is in a good spot given proper execution of lightattacks - it could be made smoother to weave but that´s about it.
@Aznox - the skill is currently on par with funnel health in terms of clunky weaving animation. It takes getting used to.

However i´m playing from EU and I´ve managed to get it down to 95% reliable weaves within playing for an hour with it and getting accustomed to the animation in a 200 to 350 ping scenario. It´s definetly manageable.

Thanks for the feedback, my PTS install is ready but i still need to test it by myself, do you have an estimate on the time needed to unlock the skill ?

Aznox

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

And the mods removing my other comments stating this is very frustrating. This guy is wrong. Like so wrong it hurts me to read his comments. He is adding nothing to the "discussion". Why don't you remove his comments because his comments have nothing to do with the way the skill line actually works.

Sometimes i dream of a sub-forum where discussing games mechanics is the only thing allowed and anything else is strictly forbidden and moderated.

Every interesting thread is inevitably plagued by "i want this !" "this should be like that !" "i have a better idea than everyone else !" nonsense.

Aznox

@Carbonised If you want to demonstrate the skill in its current form will lead to game breaking bursts, please construct the worst combo you can think of and let's compare it to what's currently available.

This way we can see how much impact it will have on the "ganking" meta.

Derra

Carbonised wrote: »

It doesn't necessarily need to be that. You could alternate between Imbue and another spamable, so Imbue + light attack + another spamable + light attack = repeat

I don´t think that would be a vaible solution to make the skill desireable.
It fits the role of an anytimer and has it´s dmg based accordingly - if you were to use it every other gcd it would have to deal more dmg/cast than your anytime - because otherwise why would you give up barspace when you can just spam the anytimer you have slotted either way.
With increased dmg however it would still be in a state where it might be undesireable from a ganking perspective (perhaps even moreso than currently - because it´s hard to pull off good combos with precasting it at the moment).

Furthermore it would create problems with the magic orb passive charges as the skill would get used significantly less often and thus greatly reducing this passives uptime.

Edit: it´s the second skill unlocked which means you have to work through 4 maps to get access. On a template char with preparing the character i´d say 1.5 to 2 hours.
If you wait until EU copy it will take max 1 hour with wayshrines accessible @Aznox

Edit2: I also think it´s pretty clever that the skill works on lightattacks already fired BECAUSE this actually reduces backloaded burst possibilities due to different projectile traveltimes - if you wish i could clarify that for a sorc burst rotation @Carbonised

Carbonised

Derra wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

It doesn't necessarily need to be that. You could alternate between Imbue and another spamable, so Imbue + light attack + another spamable + light attack = repeat

I don´t think that would be a vaible solution to make the skill desireable.
It fits the role of an anytimer and has it´s dmg based accordingly - if you were to use it every other gcd it would have to deal more dmg/cast than your anytime - because otherwise why would you give up barspace when you can just spam the anytimer you have slotted either way.
With increased dmg however it would still be in a state where it might be undesireable from a ganking perspective (perhaps even moreso than currently - because it´s hard to pull off good combos with precasting it at the moment).

Furthermore it would create problems with the magic orb passive charges as the skill would get used significantly less often and thus greatly reducing this passives uptime.

Edit: it´s the second skill unlocked which means you have to work through 4 maps to get access. On a template char with preparing the character i´d say 1.5 to 2 hours.
If you wait until EU copy it will take max 1 hour with wayshrines accessible @Aznox

Edit2: I also think it´s pretty clever that the skill works on lightattacks already fired BECAUSE this actually reduces backloaded burst possibilities due to different projectile traveltimes - if you wish i could clarify that for a sorc burst rotation @Carbonised

Like I already said, halving the damage and applying to 2 light attacks isn't the most elegant solution, but neither do I think the skill should go live as it is without some rigorous testing.

I'm not about to ruin my Psijic Guild story just to test this on the PTS, and besides, I don't play gank builds or gank classes, so it's really better of someone else does the numbers.

All I'm saying is that it does look concerning just how much damage you can stack up in a single attack. I'm not too concerned about sorcs, they're magicka based and wield staves, meaning that at least the projectiles and light attacks can be reflected or absorbed, and we now have several skills that absorb or reflect spell projectiles. Sorcs also don't gank you from stealth.

The main conern would be particularly bow gankers of the nightblade variety, and perhaps also melee ganking, again mostly nightblades.

A light bow attack from stealth with sneak bonus damage, empowered and imbued, and possibly also proc'ing a poison or disease enchant and a proc set or 2 on top of that, is too much damage from pressing 1 mouse button. Also non-reflectable and with huge range. Add to that a 1-2 combo of this paired with snipes and/or poison injections and we get into a scenario that I'm really not comfortable with.

Again, like I have been saying several times over now, I'm not saying this IS a problem, I'm saying someone should definitely try this out to SEE if it is going to be a large problem.

Aedaryl

Derra wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

It doesn't necessarily need to be that. You could alternate between Imbue and another spamable, so Imbue + light attack + another spamable + light attack = repeat

I don´t think that would be a vaible solution to make the skill desireable.
It fits the role of an anytimer and has it´s dmg based accordingly - if you were to use it every other gcd it would have to deal more dmg/cast than your anytime - because otherwise why would you give up barspace when you can just spam the anytimer you have slotted either way.
With increased dmg however it would still be in a state where it might be undesireable from a ganking perspective (perhaps even moreso than currently - because it´s hard to pull off good combos with precasting it at the moment).

Furthermore it would create problems with the magic orb passive charges as the skill would get used significantly less often and thus greatly reducing this passives uptime.

Edit: it´s the second skill unlocked which means you have to work through 4 maps to get access. On a template char with preparing the character i´d say 1.5 to 2 hours.
If you wait until EU copy it will take max 1 hour with wayshrines accessible @Aznox

Edit2: I also think it´s pretty clever that the skill works on lightattacks already fired BECAUSE this actually reduces backloaded burst possibilities due to different projectile traveltimes - if you wish i could clarify that for a sorc burst rotation @Carbonised

I wish you could clarify that for a sorc rotation

Elsterchen

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

. Magica users currently may choose 7 out of 8 skills with no thought about spending anything "extra" in stamina.

No matter how many times you state this, you are looking at this wrong. The skills are separated by role. Full stop. You are wrong looking at them any other way.

And the mods removing my other comments stating this is very frustrating. This guy is wrong. Like so wrong it hurts me to read his comments. He is adding nothing to the "discussion". Why don't you remove his comments because his comments have nothing to do with the way the skill line actually works.

Every role can be played by chars beeing magica or stamina based. I.e. a tank is not automatically a magica toon -> so why should abilities supporting the tank role be only magica based?

As stated in the PTS patch notes the goal is to make all roles viable for endgame content, this skillline in its current state however, only supports this goal for those using magica as their main ressource. Stamina users cannot make full use of the offered abilities, as they can't choose the amount of skills they like to use nor sustain usage of choosen abilities due to the link to the minor ressource pool. Making half of the skills stamina based is just thus supporting every role made viable, regardless of main ressource pool.

And, just so we don't dance in circles here: As stated before, the 15% cost reduction of stamina skills already accounts for stamina costs of blocking, dodging etc. The trade offs and troubles to use and sustain abilities that make use of your minor ressource pool is equally bad for both: magica and stamina users alike. By design.

Mystrius_Archaion

Elsterchen wrote: »

But on a serious side:
First, stamina skills cost 15% less (generally) to account for the cost of blocking, dodging and sprinting. This is true for stamina chars using stam skills as well as magica chars using stam skills. In effect this means that its just as costly for a stamina user to pay the (generally) higher magica price for a buff skill, then it is for a magica user to pay the (blockcost-is -already-accounted-for) stamina cost of a buff skill.

Secondly, you may have noticed that the base stamina pool is exactly the same as the base magica pool and the same is true for unbuffed recovery rates of both ressources. In effect this means no-one has any ressource to "spare".

Except, your main attacks and break free and block and roll dodge and everything do not use magicka so it really is a free resource for you.

Magicka characters have no "free unused resource" because they still NEED stamina. Plenty of stamina characters can forget they even have a magicka bar.
That's a flaw in this game design that is why they have trouble with their apparent goal of hybrid sets and builds, but they're not likely to correct that anytime soon as it would require a rework of how resources are generated also(heavy attacks giving magicka and stamina both back from all weapons, for example).

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

.so why should abilities supporting the tank role be only magica based?

Tanks use stamina to block. All their utility is mag.

. Stamina users cannot make full use of the offered abilities

Yes they can and you have been explained this by at least three people. You are willfully ignorant.

You need to stop posting in this thread. You are adding nothing. They are not going to change any of the skill from costing mag to stam. There is absolutely no reason to.

Aznox

Carbonised wrote: »

A light bow attack from stealth with sneak bonus damage, empowered and imbued, and possibly also proc'ing a poison or disease enchant and a proc set or 2 on top of that, is too much damage from pressing 1 mouse button. Also non-reflectable and with huge range. Add to that a 1-2 combo of this paired with snipes and/or poison injections and we get into a scenario that I'm really not comfortable with.

Again, like I have been saying several times over now, I'm not saying this IS a problem, I'm saying someone should definitely try this out to SEE if it is going to be a large problem.

I think i've read Crushing Weapon was pulling you out of stealth, can someone confirm that so we can get the gankblade apocalypse out of the way ?


As for typical burst, the only thing provided by this new skill is the ability to move one skill worth of damage :
* 1 second in the future if you don't want to waste any dps by holding on to your next light attack
* 2 seconds in the future if you sacrifice/skip a light attack

if i'm not mistake the result is like compressing 3 sec worth of damage into a 2 sec windows.

it WILL offer opportunities to optimize burst combos, but i have yet to see "gamebreaking" uses for it.

Mystrius_Archaion

Joy_Division wrote: »

Imbue Weapons 2 second duration is short and there will be absolutely times when people cast the skill and are unable to use it and waste their resources. Stuns, PvE mechanics, cast-times, necessitated move or dodge, etc. Making it 3 would keep the same intent of a quick buff but be more forgiving.

I do agree.
This is essentially Empower anyway. It can just last longer and only apply to the first light attack using the same code.

Elsterchen

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

But on a serious side:
First, stamina skills cost 15% less (generally) to account for the cost of blocking, dodging and sprinting. This is true for stamina chars using stam skills as well as magica chars using stam skills. In effect this means that its just as costly for a stamina user to pay the (generally) higher magica price for a buff skill, then it is for a magica user to pay the (blockcost-is -already-accounted-for) stamina cost of a buff skill.

Secondly, you may have noticed that the base stamina pool is exactly the same as the base magica pool and the same is true for unbuffed recovery rates of both ressources. In effect this means no-one has any ressource to "spare".

Except, your main attacks and break free and block and roll dodge and everything d not use magicka so it really is a free resource for you.

Magicka characters have no "free unused resource" because they still NEED stamina. Plenty of stamina characters can forget they even have a magicka bar.
That's a flaw in this game design that is why they have trouble with their apparent goal of hybrid sets and builds, but they're not likely to correct that anytime soon as it would require a rework of how resources are generated also(heavy attacks giving magicka and stamina both back from all weapons, for example).

The main argument for the costs of break free etc beeing stamina based is these costs are balanced due to 15% cost reduction of stamina skills. if you see a problem with this, please ask for adjusting either the costs linked to blockin, dodging etc. or a further general cost reduction of stamina skills. Developers feel its balanced the way it is, I won't disagree.

Adding to it if a stamina char chooses to use a magica ability they have to pay and sustain the (generally) higher ability cost linked to magica skills.

So to use magica skills as a stamina char has quite a cost linked to it, and as you have already noticed its a cost alot of stamina chars are not able to pay for favourable magica abilities. They don't use their magica (which isn't true for all classes, and/or roles, but for many) because its not worth to slot an ability that despite its usefullness is not sustainable during fights, not because they forget about anything.

Footfalls

I have concerns about the levelling the Psijic skill line, both on alts and for new players. If the main way of leveling them is going to a zone in Tamriel and pressing "interact" at nine different areas in that zone, that seems to me to be really, really boring.

In comparison, the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood also had quests that sent you do different places in Tamriel, except they'd have you to do things that you'd expect a thief/assassin to do. Pickpocket people, steal from safeboxes, kill a target... these things made sense, you have the risk of being caught by the guards, it's interesting.

For the Psijics, there's a disconnect - I'm a powerful mage (or apprentice), but you're asking me to just go here, press E, do this 8 more times in different places? That's my key gripe: this is neither interesting nor involving gameplay. The skull does have good lore related things to say, but still...

At the very least... each map completion gives 1 Psijic level so at worst the grind is 9 or so maps? It's not the most terrible grind, but the design comes off as the worst kind of MMO questing.

Mystrius_Archaion

Aznox wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Edit:
How long before we get a set that equalizes our max magicka and max stamina stats to the highest one like Pelinal's does for spell and weapon damage, or one that equalizes health with either max magicka or max stamina?
I can definitely see that happening and would really like it.
Also, I wonder if they should just get rid of spell and weapon damage and just make everyone focus on the max magicka and max stamina because weapon damage and spell damage now is superfluous with the new scaling for weapon attacks.

Why ? Why would you like to dumb down the game to two attributes ?

Because it already is. Fake complexity is fake.

Maybe you haven't been around in MMOs since the 2D days in the late 90s like I have, but they all have been theorycrafted to hell and back to their very essence. That's why we have "optimal stats" and "best in slot" and "crap skills" nobody uses unless they are clueless.
Everything can be boiled down to "starting health minus health decrease plus health increase", aka "damage and healing", and all of this is "over time".


They need to change something if they want true balance.
The only way to really balance properly, and not make new players completely screw up and go with crap stats and crap gear and lose all the time to the weak npc monsters and hate the game and leave, is to either remove the spell/weapon damage stats OR make max magicka and max stamina only resource pools that do not affect damage, same as health mostly was before they had to make health scaling abilities for tanks, who have crap resource pools because they ignore them(bad build decision that is reinforced by bad design changes).

Resource pools should be just that, resource pools. They allow you to do more things for longer before you have to "rest". They shouldn't be free damage on top of sustain.

These are just things these developers have not yet learned from the best designed game systems out there. They'll need to learn or the game will lose players fast when the combat becomes too complicated and nerfed into oblivion.

Mystrius_Archaion

Elsterchen wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Elsterchen wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Seems odd that there are *any* stamina morphs in a magician's guild skill line. Bug?

Seems odd that there are 7 out of 8 magica abilities (morphs) to choose from in the first place. With the new damage scaling there is absolutely no reason to not make all skills 50% mag and 50% stamina ... and I am not talking about that cheap: here you have the base skill but it costs stamina now way of adjusting.

What new damage scaling? The only thing changing is the way light and heavy attacks are being calculated, the scaling for skills is not changing, so it is perfectly fine.

Its perfectly fine that out of 2 groups havin equal base mechanics one group gets to choose from 7 out of 8 skills to use and the other gets 1 or nothing? Really I don#t get it, why mag users have this much varity to CHOOSE from while stam users get 1 skill so they won't QQ about having to pay for a completely useless skillline.

This is far from fine: 4 skills stam based and 4 skills mag based would be perfectly fine. Even more so if each skill had a mag and stam morph.

Well nothing is stopping you as a stam build from using acceleration, it is just a buff, one that you can get from trap, yes, but if you use the magic version, you save stam.

As far as I see it, there are 2 tank skills, one healer skill(which can be used on a stam healer) and 2 dps skills and the dps skills are agnostic or offer specific advantages to each morph, I might use race against time on my stamblade instead of trap just cause I have no mag skills on it, it will save stam while using a pool that was just sitting there for a buff that is quite important.

So to reiterate, it is not a mag/stam division, it is clearly a role division and I think they did great, classes that dont have crowd control in pve get some and also get some great sustain buffs, looking at templar tanks especially but nb tanks as well. Classes that dont have a "spammable" will get one, looks at stam sorcs, mag sorcs and stam dks.


Only the healer one looks meh to me, really wish they one of the morphs did something to return resources to the player healed, the major resists are easy to come by and the other morph is just more heal for the healer. Not useful and probably not going on any of my healers bars.

Obviously any stamina based skill may be used by mag users as well ... it'll hit like a wet noodle (at least the damage part), but hey who cares (right?). So everything you say would stay true if half of the skills where stamina based. -> Well, equallity for all. If stamina users are expected to use magica skills and its all fine and good, magica users can be expected to use stamina skills just as well! After all its their "not-so-much-used"-ressource, they might get some use for!

Except, magicka characters still use stamina fro blocking and bashing and break free and roll dodge and still need to do those things the same amount as a stamina character, even if they run out a hell of a lot faster than stamina characters.

Also, this actually supports all the hybrid sets they have been doing since at least Vvardenfell launched. They probably want us to be spreading our stats more between health/magicka/stamina and using the prismatic glyphs and new triune jewelry trait.


Edit:
How long before we get a set that equalizes our max magicka and max stamina stats to the highest one like Pelinal's does for spell and weapon damage, or one that equalizes health with either max magicka or max stamina?
I can definitely see that happening and would really like it.
Also, I wonder if they should just get rid of spell and weapon damage and just make everyone focus on the max magicka and max stamina because weapon damage and spell damage now is superfluous with the new scaling for weapon attacks.

Hi there,

your exeption doesn't hold valid as stamcost is reduced by generally 15% to just account for the amount of stamina everyone uses to dodge, block etc. No matter how often this claim gets reiterated, the staminacosts of these abilities are already accounted for in the games design and are therefore no argument for a preference of magica morphs of skills only.

Actually, stamina skills base cost is generally higher than magicka skills, which is why the cost reduction.
Also, 15% is not enough to compensate for blocking or break free or dodge roll, and if it was then that should be adjusted every time they adjust the cost of dodge or break free or block or the buffs and debuffs and enchantments we use to reduce those costs.
So, either they are forgetting part of their equations and causing us trouble or they are just designing poorly and causing us trouble or the 15% is not about the other uses for stamina.

Why the hell do they even need a passive skill to reduce stamina costs or magicka costs for anything anyway? Just make it a base effect and stop adding more fake choices that we are forced to take as mandatory.



Anyway, this does not belong in this thread or the PTS forums.
This is a suggestion for changing how the entire game works because it doesn't just apply to this skill line. This applies to all class skills that are still mostly magicka with no stamina morphs and the ones that do are a choice between "more power" or "same lower power just using the resource you actually have", which is also dumb poor design and forcing a dumb choice.

Believe me, I also hate that everything seems to be for magicka because I really like swinging a big axe. I even hate staves being our only magic weapon option when there have been games for 30 years, and movies much older, with wands and crystal balls and spellbooks and all manner of fun ideas. They just went with something that was tacked onto Skyrim, staff enchanting, and didn't even take 5 seconds to look at mods that players made, which Bethesda has the rights to take for themselves, which gave us more better options.

The "stamina vs magicka cost" discussion needs to be in general discussion section or some "feedback/suggestions" forums section(why is this not a thing yet? or is it?) but not here so end it.

Mystrius_Archaion

Seraphayel wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Imbue Weapons 2 second duration is short and there will be absolutely times when people cast the skill and are unable to use it and waste their resources. Stuns, PvE mechanics, cast-times, necessitated move or dodge, etc. Making it 3 would keep the same intent of a quick buff but be more forgiving.

I´m highly against increasing the time as this would mean creating the possibility of 100% unwanted combinations like:
Imbue (1s gcd) snipe (1.2s cast) lightattack PI => poof
Imbue (1s gcd) darkflare (1.1s cast) lightattack javelin => poof
Imbue (1s gcd) runecage (1s gcd) overload =>poof

The 2s time window is chosen very carefully to not allow for ultra high burst combinations with casttime abilities.

Also it definetly needs to be fixed to not work on overload lightattacks. That´s broken either way but a longer timer would allow it to be used in combination with runecage which would also make it a guaranteed hit. Not. Good.

@Joy_Division

Then just split the damage in half and make it usable on the next two light attacks within 6-10 seconds.

In its recent version the skill sounds nice but in reality is too clunky because of the server and lag/delay issues. A skill like that works in a game that's technically on point. ESO isn't.

It's going to be exploited by people, or their assisting cheat programs like keyboard macros, even at 2 seconds. It is meant to be cast then used for a light attack. Leaving any time at all will allow animation canceling/weaving and speed hacks to exploit it.

The only way to avoid multiple strikes landing at the same time and blowing a character away is to enforce cast times and delete weaving/animation canceling while giving every projectile as quick a travel time as possible.
This is not the first game to have this problem, but some have solved it.

Thraben

Does Mend Wounds cost Ultimate when used on the Sorc´s Overload bar?

Mystrius_Archaion

Carbonised wrote: »

The main conern would be particularly bow gankers of the nightblade variety, and perhaps also melee ganking, again mostly nightblades.

A light bow attack from stealth with sneak bonus damage

Wait...bow gets bonus sneak damage??

Now that's overpowered in every game I have ever played. Ranged attacks should never get sneak/stealth bonuses because they're too safe. Melee range is the price they pay in risk for high damage.

This game is so backwards against all previous game design lessons.....have these devs never attended a "game developers conference"...EVER?

Mystrius_Archaion

Elsterchen wrote: »

And, just so we don't dance in circles here: As stated before, the 15% cost reduction of stamina skills already accounts for stamina costs of blocking, dodging etc. The trade offs and troubles to use and sustain abilities that make use of your minor ressource pool is equally bad for both: magica and stamina users alike. By design.

WHAT USES MAGICKA WHEN YOU DON'T USE MAGICKA SKILLS???
ANSWER THAT!

Stamina characters are already pumping full of "max stamina" so their break free and dodge and block are all using so little of that resource, but magicka characters rarely ever spend a point on stamina and instead put it in "max magicka" so they have hardly anything to block or dodge or break free with.
It's not like they can make break free use magicka or roll dodge use magicka, which both cost a ton of stamina, like a third of the bar even with champion points reductions to cost.

Magicka is completely free for stamina characters so there is no reason to complain about "being forced to use an unused resource that is always FULL".
"Your gas tank is always full so you can literally go anywhere you can drive."


Edit:
You're completely forgetting about opportunity cost, which is essential to any calculations involving time and resources.
You have the opportunity to use that full magicka bar but you choose not to. That is a "missed opportunity" for essentially FREE "whatever". It's like turning down free ice cream because it is free even though you love ice cream.

Not using magicka as a stamina character is essentially "shooting yourself in the foot" if the ability you could use has any value to your numbers in combat.

Feanor

@Mystrius_Archaion

No. There was a universal bonus damage attached to attacking from Sneak. ZOS scrapped that a few patches ago. Now it’s only a guaranteed crit for NBs and a free stun for everyone.

Mystrius_Archaion

Thraben wrote: »

Does Mend Wounds cost Ultimate when used on the Sorc´s Overload bar?

As far as I know, no skill costs ultimate when used on any bar unless the skill says it costs ultimate, which would then be in the ultimate slot.

Overload just says light and heavy attacks deplete ultimate when used, not anything else.

Carbonised

Feanor wrote: »

@Mystrius_Archaion

No. There was a universal bonus damage attached to attacking from Sneak. ZOS scrapped that a few patches ago. Now it’s only a guaranteed crit for NBs and a free stun for everyone.

Guaranteed crit and stun was what I mean with bonus damage yeah, sorry if that wasn't clear. NBs also get further bonuses from Master Assassin and cloak crit, which is why I mentioned that class specifically.

I would still like someone who knows how to make an efficient ganker build to try and see how much damage they can load into a single light attack on a Stamblade, or a 1-2 combo from stealth.

We really don't need to go back into those days again, especially not in no-CP campaigns/BGs.

Siliziumdioxid

It would be nice if the psijic maps would have some indicator which time breaches you have already sealed... imagine someone continuing the started quest some weeks later... he would have no idea which ones are left... (ok an addon like skyshards could do that)

Derra

Aedaryl wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

It doesn't necessarily need to be that. You could alternate between Imbue and another spamable, so Imbue + light attack + another spamable + light attack = repeat

I don´t think that would be a vaible solution to make the skill desireable.
It fits the role of an anytimer and has it´s dmg based accordingly - if you were to use it every other gcd it would have to deal more dmg/cast than your anytime - because otherwise why would you give up barspace when you can just spam the anytimer you have slotted either way.
With increased dmg however it would still be in a state where it might be undesireable from a ganking perspective (perhaps even moreso than currently - because it´s hard to pull off good combos with precasting it at the moment).

Furthermore it would create problems with the magic orb passive charges as the skill would get used significantly less often and thus greatly reducing this passives uptime.

Edit: it´s the second skill unlocked which means you have to work through 4 maps to get access. On a template char with preparing the character i´d say 1.5 to 2 hours.
If you wait until EU copy it will take max 1 hour with wayshrines accessible @Aznox

Edit2: I also think it´s pretty clever that the skill works on lightattacks already fired BECAUSE this actually reduces backloaded burst possibilities due to different projectile traveltimes - if you wish i could clarify that for a sorc burst rotation @Carbonised

I wish you could clarify that for a sorc rotation

curse, fury (without la), LA imbue, la cage, la frag
la curse, LA imbue, la reach, la frag/fury

lightattack that proccs imbue in capital letters.

is what i found to be most practical when trying to utilize it.
if imbue were to land on the lightattack after casting it it would hit together with either reach + curse or it would hit together with with curse + cage (assuming breakfree).
The way it works now reduces stacked burst.
You can leave out lightattacks ofcourse but this significantly reduces overall dmg and i´ve found it to be not worth it compared to the former.

Hamburglarjones

It'd be a nice addition to channeled acceleration animation if there was some sort of more obvious sign you have finished casting the channel, right now with high ping it's very awkward to use.