Let's talk about Zaan: It needs adjustments

ecru

I don't think it's OP in pve at all due to the required melee range, long cooldown, and the fact that it's single target, but nearly a full hp bar for dps from a proc seems like a bit much. I think it could be receive a nerf specific to pvp, 19k is too much "free" damage to be coming from a proc.

I've had the set and have used it since the first day of the patch too for what it's worth.

edit: I see a lot of people here defending this set in pvp. I'm guessing a lot of you either 1) have the set and don't want to lose your iwin button, or 2) don't pvp.

18-20k damage from something that requires you to do absolutely nothing but be in range of your opponent is absurd. The argument that it only does x dps over time due to it's long cooldown sounds like something someone who doesn't pvp would say, as damage over time is not nearly as relevant to pvp as burst damage is. The only counterplay to a proc that will kill you if someone sneezes on you while it's going off being "do nothing but heal/shield yourself" or "run away" should make it obvious to anyone that the set is incredibly OP, especially with the amount of cc in ESO.

josiahva

lol, really? Its hard to move 10m out of range? Or do you just stand there and take it? This is exactly the same as Jesus Beam or Soul Assault...get out of range to break the beam, its really not hard and certainly not overpowered.

Apache_Kid

ecru wrote: »

I don't think it's OP in pve at all due to the required melee range, long cooldown, and the fact that it's single target, but nearly a full hp bar for dps from a proc seems like a bit much. I think it could be receive a nerf specific to pvp, 19k is too much "free" damage to be coming from a proc.

I've had the set and have used it since the first day of the patch too for what it's worth.

edit: I see a lot of people here defending this set in pvp. I'm guessing a lot of you either 1) have the set and don't want to lose your iwin button, or 2) don't pvp.

18-20k damage from something that requires you to do absolutely nothing but be in range of your opponent is absurd. The argument that it only does x dps over time due to it's long cooldown sounds like something someone who doesn't pvp would say, as damage over time is not nearly as relevant to pvp as burst damage is. The only counterplay to a proc that will kill you if someone sneezes on you while it's going off being "do nothing but heal/shield yourself" or "run away" should make it obvious to anyone that the set is incredibly OP, especially with the amount of cc in ESO.

Well-said.

It's like people who say "just move out of the way" don't even understand how CC works in this game, how buggy immunity and break free are, etc.

TequilaFire

What amuses me is that those who are saying learn to play are advocating letting their armor play for them.
Whatever - bring it on!

ZOS_Mika

We have recently removed some unnecessary comments from this thread. Please be sure to keep this discussion civil and constructive. It is perfectly fine to disagree, but there is no need to bash or bait other members of our community.

Apache_Kid

ZOS_MikaS wrote: »

We have recently removed some unnecessary comments from this thread. Please be sure to keep this discussion civil and constructive. It is perfectly fine to disagree, but there is no need to bash or bait other members of our community.

So people are allowed to have comments up blatantly insulting PvP players but my comment that calls out these players for their toxic views on PvP gets removed.

Yeah seems fair.

umagon

With every new dlc they introduce a new item(s) which will enhance a player’s character. This is done to drive sells for the new dlc. And the easiest way they can force pvp players into buying the dlc is to make the items enhance character attributes to a level where it is extremely difficult to impossible to overcome. The only options are to purchase the dlc and join the arms race, accept that you will be killed by someone’s item rng or just leave the game. This unfortunately the state of the game which is power for cash.

ak_pvp

Zaan is ***. I use skoria and much prefer it.

Single target.

Easily breakable, sprint, fall of something, roll a few etc.

Channeled.

Low uptime.

Good luck using it as anything other than an Xv1 nub.

NyassaV

I do both PvE and PvP. I want Zaan's to have counterplay for PvP reasons but I want to keep it's damage for PvE reasons

PaixRomanus

Oh no something in PvP is too powerful. Let's nerf it into the ground so it is useless in PvE.

Cage_Lizardman

I think you overestimate the skills of the average pvp'er, most don't even try to get away from Zaan. If they do, just spam crit rush.

ParaNostram

If you die to Zaan you would die to Eye of the Storm. Seriously it's not hard to counter, you just move away from it. I can see your problem in your death cap OP, you were rooted and did not roll away.

Goodness gracious golly gee. Enough people are complaining though so expect a NERF imminent.

PureEnvelope35

PaixRomanus wrote: »

Oh no something in PvP is too powerful. Let's nerf it into the ground so it is useless in PvE.

I agree with OP saying that reliance on sets is an issue, but what you said there is very true, it is almost impossible for Zenimax to balance everything for both PvP and PvE at the same time and that issue leads to certain sets being nerfed way too much for either PvP or PvE.

JobooAGS

Try not being a vamp?

SirCritical

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

How bout no. PvE has had to suffer through nerf after nerf after nerf because PvP

Nah, you know the ultimate answer: nerf PvE because of PvP. Else Rakkhat would complain.

Minalan

Fossil, powerlash, zaan proc. Then it’s pretty much back to the respawn with you, every single time from any MagDK.

No wonder so many people don’t want it nerfed!

Merlin13KAGL

ecru wrote: »

I don't think it's OP in pve at all due to the required melee range, long cooldown, and the fact that it's single target, but nearly a full hp bar for dps from a proc seems like a bit much. I think it could be receive a nerf specific to pvp, 19k is too much "free" damage to be coming from a proc.

I've had the set and have used it since the first day of the patch too for what it's worth.

edit: I see a lot of people here defending this set in pvp. I'm guessing a lot of you either 1) have the set and don't want to lose your iwin button, or 2) don't pvp.

18-20k damage from something that requires you to do absolutely nothing but be in range of your opponent is absurd. The argument that it only does x dps over time due to it's long cooldown sounds like something someone who doesn't pvp would say, as damage over time is not nearly as relevant to pvp as burst damage is. The only counterplay to a proc that will kill you if someone sneezes on you while it's going off being "do nothing but heal/shield yourself" or "run away" should make it obvious to anyone that the set is incredibly OP, especially with the amount of cc in ESO.

No, I'm pretty sure it's probably the baseline Dev's are given when creating new sets. Have you never noticed that stat return sets / cooldown works out to roughly the equivalent to a single set bonus in most cases?

Sets that add absurd amounts of Spell/Weapon Damage / cooldown workout to be about the same as the 100% always uptime of Jule's/Hundings.

It's not been stated that the design method is a good one, but it's still likely the design method, regardless.

Yes. the burst is high. Whether it's too high is yet to be determined for balance purposes. Coming from PTS, the Dev's apparently didn't think it so.

It's not as if there are not other skills and circumstances that make it difficult to get away and create distance from your opponent.

umagon wrote: »

With every new dlc they introduce a new item(s) which will enhance a player’s character. This is done to drive sells for the new dlc. And the easiest way they can force pvp players into buying the dlc is to make the items enhance character attributes to a level where it is extremely difficult to impossible to overcome. The only options are to purchase the dlc and join the arms race, accept that you will be killed by someone’s item rng or just leave the game. This unfortunately the state of the game which is power for cash.

The ironic part of this is that it's obtainable for PvP'ers without owning the DLC and without ever having set foot in the dungeon, let alone cleared it.

Wait long enough, and your perfect trait opportunity will be available at the Golden. Shoulders obtainable from enough regular pledge keys - no DLC even required.

That aspect was certainly never pushed for by 'PvE'ers'

Ch4mpTW

Oh look. Another person wants something nerfed, because they were eliminated by it within a PvP environment. I don’t know when was the last time I’ve ever observed such a thing. . .

How about no, OP. There’s such a thing called PvE. And not for nothing, the set has barely even been in the game for a full 30 days. And already you want it nerfed. Smfh.

RinaldoGandolphi

If I remember correctly:

1. The beam from Zaan can be purged just like the beam from Malabeth.
2. Snares and roots are your friend against people using this set.
3. The game classified the proc as a dot so nightblade Cloak should suppress its damage.

Again 1-3 could have changed since I last checked.

Pirate Skeketon/Malabeth with Lingering Health Pors should be a very HARD counter to Zaan users.

Waffennacht

It's really really #$&+ing good and OP.

Either players like too much themselves, do not PvP, or just haven't faced it yet.

Sorry gents - if a dive being undodgeable was OP, Zaan is most definitely OP

jakeedmundson

.

Waffennacht wrote: »

It's really really #$&+ing good and OP.

Either players like too much themselves, do not PvP, or just haven't faced it yet.

Sorry gents - if a dive being undodgeable was OP, Zaan is most definitely OP

Cool, lets nerf it then. Why would pve folks need anything to gain from doing the new content? OR even buying the new dlcs or continuing to pay for eso+?

Lets just keep throwing all that new gear in the garbage because people are getting killed by it 1 week after the dlc dropped... don't try to work anything out and find a solution in game or anything. Lets just complain until it gets a senseless nerf so no one uses it.

FYI, for pve this set is BARELY better than illambris for single target damage. 500 dps more from some recent parses i've seen.
Illambris totals around 2.5k and zaan gets close to 3k... except illambris hits an area and procs at range.

Jamini

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

If I remember correctly:

1. The beam from Zaan can be purged just like the beam from Malabeth.
2. Snares and roots are your friend against people using this set.
3. The game classified the proc as a dot so nightblade Cloak should suppress its damage.

Again 1-3 could have changed since I last checked.

Pirate Skeketon/Malabeth with Lingering Health Pors should be a very HARD counter to Zaan users.

After dueling a few friends with it (very fun fights, Zaan gives a lot of pressure to DK, which is good since it's a pressure class)

1. The beam can't be purged.
2. True, but DKs are very sticky as a class due to innate snares and decent gapclosers.
3. It is not suppressed by cloak. Cloak breaks the beam immediately.

The best counter is streak, cloak, and not being a vampire. Zaan is much better against templars/DK/Warden, however those are also the three classes that really like to run it.

umagon

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

The ironic part of this is that it's obtainable for PvP'ers without owning the DLC and without ever having set foot in the dungeon, let alone cleared it.

Wait long enough, and your perfect trait opportunity will be available at the Golden. Shoulders obtainable from enough regular pledge keys - no DLC even required.

That aspect was certainly never pushed for by 'PvE'ers'

That is under the assumption that the items are on the golden vendor’s item table; and that the odds are evenly distributed. Which I would find hard to believe for sets that are tied to dlc. Golden is just a way for zos to claim the sets are available without purchase. Which is true in some cases but the reality is the wait to obtain them is normally measured in years not weeks. Also, all of this controversy over the proc sets in pvp could be ended by disabling all or certain sets of that nature in pvp areas. But if you notice they never do that.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Complaining about sets/abilities where the counter-play is crystal clear and literally spelled out for you in the tool tip is the definition of a L2P issue.

xaraan

The set is a little strong, but it's not OP/broken strong.

The sad thing that ZOS hasn't taken advantage of, that they said they would way back when they increased all numbers in the game by ten, is making small adjustments.

Let's say Zaan does 4847 per tick or whatever, instead of waiting three months for next major patch to nerf it to horrible levels or some other horrible change, they could literally just lower it the next standard patch to like 4747 and see if that nudges the power level down a little without making it horrible to use.

Kind of like, they added the invigorating trait to the game and everyone agrees its horrible - most suggestions to buff it have been OP, but they could literally just make it, say, 15 when golded per piece instead of 11 and see how strong it is, then lower or raise it another point in another month or two. But no, they just leave stuff not working well at all for months and months and then make huge changes that are half the time worse. You guys put a system in the game to be able to make small tweaks like that, use it.

Waffennacht

You cannot say frag with a stun was OP
You cannot say undodgeable birds was OP
You cannot say Malubeth on a Templar was OP
You cannot say Troll King was OP
You cannot say cloak was OP
You cannot say Sub Assault is OP
You cannot say Soul Assault is OP

And say Zaan is not OP

Sergykid

if it was not obvious enough, to all the people that came here to type "L2P" or "git gud", thanks for coming into the discussion, but you can leave, you're not helping.

y`all say "just move away" yeah like a mdk when it procs won't just leap me then talons. Or u know, any other class can just hug me while i try to run away. I don't roll dodge 10 meters. Even if i dodge 2 times or sprint away, i have to give away so many resources for a free 15k damage from the enemy.

and PvE-ers, nobody said nerf its damage, we say nerf the way it deals damage. Sure let it deal 35k damage, but in a longer period or from a shorter distance. That would do no change to a pve dps. In pvp timed well with a cc and a ult will just kill a target very fast, like it wasn't fast enough without it.

i can just imagine some op tanks that don't die that permablock and then when it procs switch to 2h dizzy dbos execute.

NightbladeMechanics

The set is new. Let it play out and we will see how it fleshes out over time as players learn to play with and against it.

How difficult are you guys finding it to break the tether? The range could be shortened like that of Malubeth. If the set needs a nerf, I’d look at adding counterplay like that, for example.

josiahva

Sergykid wrote: »

if it was not obvious enough, to all the people that came here to type "L2P" or "git gud", thanks for coming into the discussion, but you can leave, you're not helping.

y`all say "just move away" yeah like a mdk when it procs won't just leap me then talons. Or u know, any other class can just hug me while i try to run away. I don't roll dodge 10 meters. Even if i dodge 2 times or sprint away, i have to give away so many resources for a free 15k damage from the enemy.

and PvE-ers, nobody said nerf its damage, we say nerf the way it deals damage. Sure let it deal 35k damage, but in a longer period or from a shorter distance. That would do no change to a pve dps. In pvp timed well with a cc and a ult will just kill a target very fast, like it wasn't fast enough without it.

i can just imagine some op tanks that don't die that permablock and then when it procs switch to 2h dizzy dbos execute.

Cant have magicka DK actually viable in PvP now...considering how impossible the class was to play for the longest time, its a much needed buff to the class. it really is not hard to get away from a magicka DK...they dont use leap, the worst you have to worry about is chains and talons...easily countered by say...mist form

Minalan

josiahva wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

if it was not obvious enough, to all the people that came here to type "L2P" or "git gud", thanks for coming into the discussion, but you can leave, you're not helping.

y`all say "just move away" yeah like a mdk when it procs won't just leap me then talons. Or u know, any other class can just hug me while i try to run away. I don't roll dodge 10 meters. Even if i dodge 2 times or sprint away, i have to give away so many resources for a free 15k damage from the enemy.

and PvE-ers, nobody said nerf its damage, we say nerf the way it deals damage. Sure let it deal 35k damage, but in a longer period or from a shorter distance. That would do no change to a pve dps. In pvp timed well with a cc and a ult will just kill a target very fast, like it wasn't fast enough without it.

i can just imagine some op tanks that don't die that permablock and then when it procs switch to 2h dizzy dbos execute.

Cant have magicka DK actually viable in PvP now...considering how impossible the class was to play for the longest time, its a much needed buff to the class. it really is not hard to get away from a magicka DK...they dont use leap, the worst you have to worry about is chains and talons...easily countered by say...mist form

MagDK already viable, do they really need an ‘I win!’ Set?

I knew it was only a matter of time until a few of you MagDK figured this set out and started using it. And now the MagDK forum warriors will line up and defend it!