Let's talk about Zaan: It needs adjustments

Qbiken

Beardimus wrote: »

Whilst I could see the way the thread would go, I do think OP has a point but the point in general is around the power Proc sets have in the game.

Personally id prefer them removed, PvE and PvP alike. There's zero skill in your armour killing things, its what weapons are for.

It's embarrassing when the PvE crew start talking about how unfair it is they get Nerfs..i mean its not like the game is hard for PvE players, beyond a very small % of content PvE is pretty straight forward to steam roll on any half baked setup. And if you need a Proc set to be OP for you to be good in PvE, well..... Then its those players they need to get gud not the OP.

You realise there are roughly 60-70 sets in this game (if not more) that are consider proc-sets? Removing them all is simply unrealistic. Even a total overhaul is unrealistic.

The reason most PvE content is face-rolled is due to more and more players getting comfortable with the content. When HotR patch was released the new dungeons was very difficult to complete, now it´s ez-peez and you can even PUG hardmode in Bloodroot and Falkreath Hold without much trouble. Same thing will happen to the new dungeons. In a few weeks Scalecaller Peak and Fanglair will be facerolled by most players as well. No one is carried by either CP or proc-sets in PvE. A bad player won´t become a god or even average just because they equip a few proc-sets doing their damage.

And frankly, most BiS PvE setups doesn´t even use proc-sets anymore due to them being so ineffective (unless you call mechanical acuity a proc-set, which it actually is).

Proc-sets isn´t nearly as powerful in PvE as people want to believe.......

Feanor

Qbiken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Whilst I could see the way the thread would go, I do think OP has a point but the point in general is around the power Proc sets have in the game.

Personally id prefer them removed, PvE and PvP alike. There's zero skill in your armour killing things, its what weapons are for.

It's embarrassing when the PvE crew start talking about how unfair it is they get Nerfs..i mean its not like the game is hard for PvE players, beyond a very small % of content PvE is pretty straight forward to steam roll on any half baked setup. And if you need a Proc set to be OP for you to be good in PvE, well..... Then its those players they need to get gud not the OP.

You realise there are roughly 60-70 sets in this game (if not more) that are consider proc-sets? Removing them all is simply unrealistic. Even a total overhaul is unrealistic.

The reason most PvE content is face-rolled is due to more and more players getting comfortable with the content. When HotR patch was released the new dungeons was very difficult to complete, now it´s ez-peez and you can even PUG hardmode in Bloodroot and Falkreath Hold without much trouble. Same thing will happen to the new dungeons. In a few weeks Scalecaller Peak and Fanglair will be facerolled by most players as well. No one is carried by either CP or proc-sets in PvE. A bad player won´t become a god or even average just because they equip a few proc-sets doing their damage.

And frankly, most BiS PvE setups doesn´t even use proc-sets anymore due to them being so ineffective (unless you call mechanical acuity a proc-set, which it actually is).

Proc-sets isn´t nearly as powerful in PvE as people want to believe.......

If it is as you say adjusting a proc set for the sake of PvP balance wouldn't be a problem though. Yet still here we are with PvE players on the crusade for their precious Zaan proc.

Merlin13KAGL

The average DPS for Zaan works out to be about 3k. Same as Skoria and handful of other monster sets.

Granted, it's delivered as burst, but with the other requirements (10m, LoS, etc), it's still in tune with other sets out there.

Mitigate. Don't linger in the beam...

EDIT: That's before the halved damage from Battle Spirit, too...

I also notice you didn't link your gear. You know, to show the monster/proc/damage sets you're not using, since it should be the player dealing the damage?

Datthaw

This is why we can't have nice things

DemonDruaga

let's make it a cone-aoe, gonna dust of my mag dk then

Jacozilla

magorim wrote: »

Hi,

is it really necessary that two pieces of armor are doing such a huge free damage without costing ressources or some form of downsides? I mean, I was lagging and it was hard to get away from the beam on top of wonky weapon swapping but ~19k damage from just two armor pieces is not balanced it's stupid and broken.
And before the PvE heros start to cry, it's not balanced in PvE, too. Far from it. It should always be the player doing high damage and it should cost ressources (ultimate, stamina, magicka) to achieve it.

OP title misleading - he's not calling for a nerf to Zaan - he's calling for nerf to most or all monster sets.

"And before the PvE heros start to cry, it's not balanced in PvE, too. Far from it. It should always be the player doing high damage and it should cost ressources (ultimate, stamina, magicka) to achieve it."


So popular and common monster sets like Illambris, Velidreth, etc for DPS, as well as utility options used by tanks/healers would be nerfed because by OP's logic if it doesn't cost resource to use it, then "it's not balanced" and should not be allowed.

I said "most" to cover all bases but I can't think of one monster set from memory that uses any resources at all to proc the DPS, heal, resource return, whatever utility proc, etc.

So not only is OP ignorant and wrong about Zaan given it is dmg over time, but is calling for basically the deletion of all monster sets.

olsborg

Im with OP on this one, as I am with anyone whos opposed to being killed by equipment not by skill. Zaan is overperforming and then some.

Feanor

Datthaw wrote: »

This is why we can't have nice things

Next: Galerion's Legacy set, doing 30k DPS with a 2 second cooldown, obtainable in Summerset only. Shouldn't be a problem either by that logic.

Aesthier

PvE player here. I ain't using my tissue and it looks like you need it more than me.

::hands tissue to OP::

Qbiken

Feanor wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Whilst I could see the way the thread would go, I do think OP has a point but the point in general is around the power Proc sets have in the game.

Personally id prefer them removed, PvE and PvP alike. There's zero skill in your armour killing things, its what weapons are for.

It's embarrassing when the PvE crew start talking about how unfair it is they get Nerfs..i mean its not like the game is hard for PvE players, beyond a very small % of content PvE is pretty straight forward to steam roll on any half baked setup. And if you need a Proc set to be OP for you to be good in PvE, well..... Then its those players they need to get gud not the OP.

You realise there are roughly 60-70 sets in this game (if not more) that are consider proc-sets? Removing them all is simply unrealistic. Even a total overhaul is unrealistic.

The reason most PvE content is face-rolled is due to more and more players getting comfortable with the content. When HotR patch was released the new dungeons was very difficult to complete, now it´s ez-peez and you can even PUG hardmode in Bloodroot and Falkreath Hold without much trouble. Same thing will happen to the new dungeons. In a few weeks Scalecaller Peak and Fanglair will be facerolled by most players as well. No one is carried by either CP or proc-sets in PvE. A bad player won´t become a god or even average just because they equip a few proc-sets doing their damage.

And frankly, most BiS PvE setups doesn´t even use proc-sets anymore due to them being so ineffective (unless you call mechanical acuity a proc-set, which it actually is).

Proc-sets isn´t nearly as powerful in PvE as people want to believe.......

If it is as you say adjusting a proc set for the sake of PvP balance wouldn't be a problem though. Yet still here we are with PvE players on the crusade for their precious Zaan proc.

Probably not, how would a decent change look like? I´ve read suggestions about increasing the damage by 25% for each tick instead of 50%, but let the beam persist longer. Would that be a decent change? Or decreasing the length of the beam? I don´t know really since I haven´t tried it in PvP.

Feanor

Qbiken wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Whilst I could see the way the thread would go, I do think OP has a point but the point in general is around the power Proc sets have in the game.

Personally id prefer them removed, PvE and PvP alike. There's zero skill in your armour killing things, its what weapons are for.

It's embarrassing when the PvE crew start talking about how unfair it is they get Nerfs..i mean its not like the game is hard for PvE players, beyond a very small % of content PvE is pretty straight forward to steam roll on any half baked setup. And if you need a Proc set to be OP for you to be good in PvE, well..... Then its those players they need to get gud not the OP.

You realise there are roughly 60-70 sets in this game (if not more) that are consider proc-sets? Removing them all is simply unrealistic. Even a total overhaul is unrealistic.

The reason most PvE content is face-rolled is due to more and more players getting comfortable with the content. When HotR patch was released the new dungeons was very difficult to complete, now it´s ez-peez and you can even PUG hardmode in Bloodroot and Falkreath Hold without much trouble. Same thing will happen to the new dungeons. In a few weeks Scalecaller Peak and Fanglair will be facerolled by most players as well. No one is carried by either CP or proc-sets in PvE. A bad player won´t become a god or even average just because they equip a few proc-sets doing their damage.

And frankly, most BiS PvE setups doesn´t even use proc-sets anymore due to them being so ineffective (unless you call mechanical acuity a proc-set, which it actually is).

Proc-sets isn´t nearly as powerful in PvE as people want to believe.......

If it is as you say adjusting a proc set for the sake of PvP balance wouldn't be a problem though. Yet still here we are with PvE players on the crusade for their precious Zaan proc.

Probably not, how would a decent change look like? I´ve read suggestions about increasing the damage by 25% for each tick instead of 50%, but let the beam persist longer. Would that be a decent change? Or decreasing the length of the beam? I don´t know really since I haven´t tried it in PvP.

Currently and for most of times PvP is all about burst while PvE is about sustained damage. So lowering the damage per tick while increasing the ticks (so PvE DPS remains unaffected) would be a good start, yes.

Merlin13KAGL

If these things weren't wanted in PvP, why was there such a push to have them made available via The Golden, purchasable with AP?

ArchMikem

You need to deal with a vet dlc dungeon to get the damn thing, that's enough of an excuse for it to do the damage it does for me. This set was a long time coming for PvE players. After dealing with our proc set crits being taken away we deserve this.

BohnT

ArchMikem wrote: »

You need to deal with a vet dlc dungeon to get the damn thing, that's enough of an excuse for it to do the damage it does for me. This set was a long time coming for PvE players. After dealing with our proc set crits being taken away we deserve this.

That's the worst excuse for bringing into something this op, the dungeon has been duoed, there is nothing difficult about doing them or getting sets in this game.

Crits from Procs were removed because of pve, no pvp player thought it was a good idea neither did it change something in pvp except for making more sets useless

Vermintide

How about we stop bickering about PVE vs PVP and agree that all free damage proc sets are cancerous and should never have been added in the first place.

But alas, they are here now. And to clarify: I am not trying to suggest that these sets are somehow imbalanced. In fact most of them are balanced pretty damn well.

The issue is that they are *** stupid.

BohnT

Qbiken wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Whilst I could see the way the thread would go, I do think OP has a point but the point in general is around the power Proc sets have in the game.

Personally id prefer them removed, PvE and PvP alike. There's zero skill in your armour killing things, its what weapons are for.

It's embarrassing when the PvE crew start talking about how unfair it is they get Nerfs..i mean its not like the game is hard for PvE players, beyond a very small % of content PvE is pretty straight forward to steam roll on any half baked setup. And if you need a Proc set to be OP for you to be good in PvE, well..... Then its those players they need to get gud not the OP.

You realise there are roughly 60-70 sets in this game (if not more) that are consider proc-sets? Removing them all is simply unrealistic. Even a total overhaul is unrealistic.

The reason most PvE content is face-rolled is due to more and more players getting comfortable with the content. When HotR patch was released the new dungeons was very difficult to complete, now it´s ez-peez and you can even PUG hardmode in Bloodroot and Falkreath Hold without much trouble. Same thing will happen to the new dungeons. In a few weeks Scalecaller Peak and Fanglair will be facerolled by most players as well. No one is carried by either CP or proc-sets in PvE. A bad player won´t become a god or even average just because they equip a few proc-sets doing their damage.

And frankly, most BiS PvE setups doesn´t even use proc-sets anymore due to them being so ineffective (unless you call mechanical acuity a proc-set, which it actually is).

Proc-sets isn´t nearly as powerful in PvE as people want to believe.......

If it is as you say adjusting a proc set for the sake of PvP balance wouldn't be a problem though. Yet still here we are with PvE players on the crusade for their precious Zaan proc.

Probably not, how would a decent change look like? I´ve read suggestions about increasing the damage by 25% for each tick instead of 50%, but let the beam persist longer. Would that be a decent change? Or decreasing the length of the beam? I don´t know really since I haven´t tried it in PvP.

And that is the problem in this discussion, everyone defending it has never tried this set in pvp or had an encounter where the enemy was using it

ArchMikem

BohnT wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Whilst I could see the way the thread would go, I do think OP has a point but the point in general is around the power Proc sets have in the game.

Personally id prefer them removed, PvE and PvP alike. There's zero skill in your armour killing things, its what weapons are for.

It's embarrassing when the PvE crew start talking about how unfair it is they get Nerfs..i mean its not like the game is hard for PvE players, beyond a very small % of content PvE is pretty straight forward to steam roll on any half baked setup. And if you need a Proc set to be OP for you to be good in PvE, well..... Then its those players they need to get gud not the OP.

You realise there are roughly 60-70 sets in this game (if not more) that are consider proc-sets? Removing them all is simply unrealistic. Even a total overhaul is unrealistic.

The reason most PvE content is face-rolled is due to more and more players getting comfortable with the content. When HotR patch was released the new dungeons was very difficult to complete, now it´s ez-peez and you can even PUG hardmode in Bloodroot and Falkreath Hold without much trouble. Same thing will happen to the new dungeons. In a few weeks Scalecaller Peak and Fanglair will be facerolled by most players as well. No one is carried by either CP or proc-sets in PvE. A bad player won´t become a god or even average just because they equip a few proc-sets doing their damage.

And frankly, most BiS PvE setups doesn´t even use proc-sets anymore due to them being so ineffective (unless you call mechanical acuity a proc-set, which it actually is).

Proc-sets isn´t nearly as powerful in PvE as people want to believe.......

If it is as you say adjusting a proc set for the sake of PvP balance wouldn't be a problem though. Yet still here we are with PvE players on the crusade for their precious Zaan proc.

Probably not, how would a decent change look like? I´ve read suggestions about increasing the damage by 25% for each tick instead of 50%, but let the beam persist longer. Would that be a decent change? Or decreasing the length of the beam? I don´t know really since I haven´t tried it in PvP.

And that is the problem in this discussion, everyone defending it has never tried this set in pvp or had an encounter where the enemy was using it

PvP is already a ganking, steamrolling nightmare where the average encounter lasts 5sec. What possible difference does this one set make in the grand scheme of an already crappy gamemode? Fights are now 4sec?

Maulkin

I'm not advocating for a nerf here, since I've yet to experience the set in PvP and formulate a personal opinion on it.

But *if* the set is OP in PvP then a good way to balance it would be to reduce the cooldown and the damage % increase, at the same time. So it does the same single target DPS but the damage is spread more evenly rather big bursts every 18 seconds which is what kills people in PvP.

Qbiken

BohnT wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Whilst I could see the way the thread would go, I do think OP has a point but the point in general is around the power Proc sets have in the game.

Personally id prefer them removed, PvE and PvP alike. There's zero skill in your armour killing things, its what weapons are for.

It's embarrassing when the PvE crew start talking about how unfair it is they get Nerfs..i mean its not like the game is hard for PvE players, beyond a very small % of content PvE is pretty straight forward to steam roll on any half baked setup. And if you need a Proc set to be OP for you to be good in PvE, well..... Then its those players they need to get gud not the OP.

You realise there are roughly 60-70 sets in this game (if not more) that are consider proc-sets? Removing them all is simply unrealistic. Even a total overhaul is unrealistic.

The reason most PvE content is face-rolled is due to more and more players getting comfortable with the content. When HotR patch was released the new dungeons was very difficult to complete, now it´s ez-peez and you can even PUG hardmode in Bloodroot and Falkreath Hold without much trouble. Same thing will happen to the new dungeons. In a few weeks Scalecaller Peak and Fanglair will be facerolled by most players as well. No one is carried by either CP or proc-sets in PvE. A bad player won´t become a god or even average just because they equip a few proc-sets doing their damage.

And frankly, most BiS PvE setups doesn´t even use proc-sets anymore due to them being so ineffective (unless you call mechanical acuity a proc-set, which it actually is).

Proc-sets isn´t nearly as powerful in PvE as people want to believe.......

If it is as you say adjusting a proc set for the sake of PvP balance wouldn't be a problem though. Yet still here we are with PvE players on the crusade for their precious Zaan proc.

Probably not, how would a decent change look like? I´ve read suggestions about increasing the damage by 25% for each tick instead of 50%, but let the beam persist longer. Would that be a decent change? Or decreasing the length of the beam? I don´t know really since I haven´t tried it in PvP.

And that is the problem in this discussion, everyone defending it has never tried this set in pvp or had an encounter where the enemy was using it

I´ve never made any claims that Zaan is balanced in PvP. Read my posts again. I´ve been very clear that I talk from a PvE perspective ONLY. And I´m all for a nerf/change if something is overperforming or not working as intended.

Feanor

ArchMikem wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Whilst I could see the way the thread would go, I do think OP has a point but the point in general is around the power Proc sets have in the game.

Personally id prefer them removed, PvE and PvP alike. There's zero skill in your armour killing things, its what weapons are for.

It's embarrassing when the PvE crew start talking about how unfair it is they get Nerfs..i mean its not like the game is hard for PvE players, beyond a very small % of content PvE is pretty straight forward to steam roll on any half baked setup. And if you need a Proc set to be OP for you to be good in PvE, well..... Then its those players they need to get gud not the OP.

You realise there are roughly 60-70 sets in this game (if not more) that are consider proc-sets? Removing them all is simply unrealistic. Even a total overhaul is unrealistic.

The reason most PvE content is face-rolled is due to more and more players getting comfortable with the content. When HotR patch was released the new dungeons was very difficult to complete, now it´s ez-peez and you can even PUG hardmode in Bloodroot and Falkreath Hold without much trouble. Same thing will happen to the new dungeons. In a few weeks Scalecaller Peak and Fanglair will be facerolled by most players as well. No one is carried by either CP or proc-sets in PvE. A bad player won´t become a god or even average just because they equip a few proc-sets doing their damage.

And frankly, most BiS PvE setups doesn´t even use proc-sets anymore due to them being so ineffective (unless you call mechanical acuity a proc-set, which it actually is).

Proc-sets isn´t nearly as powerful in PvE as people want to believe.......

If it is as you say adjusting a proc set for the sake of PvP balance wouldn't be a problem though. Yet still here we are with PvE players on the crusade for their precious Zaan proc.

Probably not, how would a decent change look like? I´ve read suggestions about increasing the damage by 25% for each tick instead of 50%, but let the beam persist longer. Would that be a decent change? Or decreasing the length of the beam? I don´t know really since I haven´t tried it in PvP.

And that is the problem in this discussion, everyone defending it has never tried this set in pvp or had an encounter where the enemy was using it

PvP is already a ganking, steamrolling nightmare where the average encounter lasts 5sec. What possible difference does this one set make in the grand scheme of an already crappy gamemode? Fights are now 4sec?

You describe the skill gap which is quite huge between the best PvPers and your regular PvE noob taking a stroll to Bleakers. That has nothing to with the game mode balance.

idk

OP. You admit you were lagging and could not get out of the damage. We have had monster proc sets for a long time and none do instant damage that cannot be avoided or mitigated after changes last year. This is a DoT, not even instant damage

I do not think Zos should nerf damage because someone lagged

Tommy_The_Gun

I have to agree with OP. During Dragon Bones PTS people (and not just casual players - hard core pvp & pve veterans) stated multiple times that zaan is super over-performing and its dmg needs to be toned down. Instead of decreasing dmg zos removed crit requirement for the proc to occur and increased cooldown. By doing so zos basically gave a tank-sustain focus build (that dont have to build high crit chance) free source of dmg easily comparable with soul assult. If any one remember - the same issue existed with viper set (and that is why viper was nerfed to oblivion).

ShadowMonarch

Honestly it does do too much damage, if your a mag class and getting cc spamming by a magdk its over for you, you get 2 dodge rolls or a dodge roll and maybe a block or 2 and your already 100% out of stamina, stuck standing in it till your dead.

Lord_Eomer

magorim wrote: »

Hi,

is it really necessary that two pieces of armor are doing such a huge free damage without costing ressources or some form of downsides? I mean, I was lagging and it was hard to get away from the beam on top of wonky weapon swapping but ~19k damage from just two armor pieces is not balanced it's stupid and broken.
And before the PvE heros start to cry, it's not balanced in PvE, too. Far from it. It should always be the player doing high damage and it should cost ressources (ultimate, stamina, magicka) to achieve it.

post a video with your resistance, Impent Cap and you are probably a vampire standing next to guy lighting attacking you!

People heal, dodge roll and follow mechanics.

L2P

Alcast

Turelus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

This is why we can't have nice things. It's 19k damage over time. The burst potential (assuming the 19k is accurate) is 19k/5s or <4K DPS. I've seen vigor heal more than 4K/s, and shields can mitigate much more than this.

Then there's the cooldown of 15s, so Zaan is only doing 19k/15s or around 1.3K DPS on average (in PVP, this is doubled for PVE).

There's the obvious counter of moving out of the beam before it ramps up the damage. 10m is not far to break. There are plenty of skills available to create distance.

It is actually pretty nice to have something that makes melee builds have to think twice before spamming gap closers to stay on top of Magicka builds.

Have fun getting away from a MagDK with Zaan as Magicka char.

There are no MagDK's, they died with Dragon Bones update.

before* dragon bones

KingYogi415

Def needs nerf before it hits console.

Maulkin

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Def needs nerd before it hits console.

There's enough nerds on this thread, no need for more thank you.

KingYogi415

Maulkin wrote: »

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Def needs nerd before it hits console.

There's enough nerds on this thread, no need for more thank you.

Dam auto correct.

Imagine a Soul Assault with zan proc tho....

BohnT

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Def needs nerd before it hits console.

There's enough nerds on this thread, no need for more thank you.

Dam auto correct.

Imagine a Soul Assault with zan proc tho....

It doesn't matter what you mix with a Zaan proc, just stay in range of the enemy and watch him burn,
the death recap shows that the whip dealt 3k damage, a 3k whip against anything is laughable but hey at least there is Zaan with "just" 19k damage in non cp

Maulkin

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

KingYogi415 wrote: »

Def needs nerd before it hits console.

There's enough nerds on this thread, no need for more thank you.

Dam auto correct.

Imagine a Soul Assault with zan proc tho....

Meh, soul assault is better against ranged opponents and dodge rollers which Zaan doesn't work well against.

A Mag Dk that Petrifies then Dragon Leaps you couple of seconds into the proc however, all the while he has 2-3 other dots ticking, will probably wreck your face with it though.