Let's talk about Zaan: It needs adjustments

Jhalin

Wardens can outheal it easy as stam or mag, or outshield it with class abilities and harness, AND they have an aoe slow to put between themselves and their attacker, and if all else fails the giant cheap healing ult completely negates Zaan.

If all you look at is the tooltip, then you could mistake it as OP, but you aren't getting hit with all of it at once, in the entire first half of the beam's duration you've taken maybe a third of the tooltip's damage. And if you're still in the beam by the time it starts hitting for 15k, it's your own fault.

Rickter

a couple of my guildies are having a hard time getting it to proc often. One of them switched back to skoria

Oreyn_Bearclaw

WakeYourGhost wrote: »

I keep seeing arguments that Proc Sets in general are bad for the Health of this game, yet - I don't understand why?
Setting yourself up to maximize the chance of activating a unique effect takes at least a tiny amount of thinking, and random chance bursts of extra damage are, at least in my opinion, a fun mechanic in any game to make combat feel a little different.
Out of all the Balance complaints I've heard, this is the one I just don't get.

I imagine for Console players, it will be much easier to avoid taking the full Proc worth of Damage, though - So, that's something.

You are on to something right here. Just because a set has a proc does not make it bad. Yes we have had times in this game where certain sets where WAY out of hand, all the damage sets I can remember having issues with were essentially instant damage that could fire from stealth. This is not the case with Zaan. I am still trying to reserve judgment and remain objective. I still have not seen this on my killing blow recap, but admittedly I usually avoid close melee combat if possible.

That said, I went full proctard on my magic Sorc last night, for you know, science. Seriously though I wanted to try it out. I paired it with Caluurions front bar and lich back bar. From a Sorc point of view, the Caluurions proc is much stronger in my view for whatever that is worth.

First, the notion that proc sets are by definition free damage with no draw back is objectively false. By running these sets over my traditional shaklebreaker/riposte/1pc domihaus I sacrificed a LOT of sustain and survival. Maybe not the best class for a test, but I also found I had to radically alter my rotation and playsyle to try and get this set to fire. This would certainly be less of an issue on Templar or mag DK. More than once, I died trying to get This thing to go off or after it went off because I was trying to keep the beam active. Out of around 150 KBs last night, Zaan was responsible for 2 and and Caluurions was responsible for 7-8. My KB and KD ration both suffered wearing these sets. Not a combo I will go back to solo open world. I do see it being effective in group play. For me at least, not sure how well this combo would do in BGs, as even with lich, my sustain was hurting.

The jury is still out for me on this set. From my experience, I find it situationally very powerful, but with clear counter play. It may require a small tweak at some point, but it’s too soon. I will prob give this set a go on my mDK over the weekend, again, for science.

Jura23

Didgerion wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, the damage Zaan can deal is pretty disgusting, but, and this is a big but, it has a fairly long cooldown, and that does some interesting things.

Firstly, it normalises the skills DPS. The proc might have a base damage of 34k, but you are only getting that once every 15 seconds, bringing the sets overall DPS down to about 2.3k, and yes, while this is higher than other magicka based proc sets (Skoria, Grothdarr, Ilambris) Those other sets grant AOE damage, and won't remove your proc if you move away from your target.
Skoria is fire and forget, as it will proc entirely on its own. Grothdarr has higher damage output if you are hitting more than two enemies, and Ilambris has almost the same level of base damage output, along with AOE.

In PVP, Zaan is a bit more interesting. It does hit stupidly hard, but, there is clear counterplay. Break the beam. Once you realise this, you are mitigating pretty much all of the damage this set brings to the table, as half of the sets damage is loaded on to the last couple of ticks. Plus the set has an 18 second cooldown, which gives ample time for you to reset the fight, and pressure your opponent.

Is Zaan strong? Yes definitely, I'd even say it is a best in slot set for a number of PVE boss fights, but I wouldn't say that it is broken in any sense.

Agree! I think that Zaan is good in the current state of the game.

PVE wise - it is OPish a bit - but you have to have a melee build to make full use of it.

PVP wise - you have to have a magica build to make use of it - but magica builds are crippled in PVP and an this OPish magica set will somehow improve the balance.

I don't care about this set and if it's nerfed or not, but this is really bad argument. Solving PvP imbalances with adding pieces of gear in the game would be just madness and I'm pretty sure that's not what they wanted to do. Do we want everybody to run the same set? That would be reson to stop playing.

Beodamacsa

I dont understand why they cant nerf it for PVP only, like other games can like GW2 and not for PVE. ?

BohnT

The availability of counterplay does not legitimate the absurd damage it does, especially due to the counterplay being absolutely reliant on:
-Your class
-Your Enemy
-Lag
-Your build and slotted skills

In every fight where i encountered a decent (not top tier!) player with the set while not playing either my NBs or my magplar i got hit by 6/6 ticks varying between 8-28k damage (8k on magdk with mistform, 28k on vampire stamplar with capped resistances and bad luck with purge)
When comparing Zaan with something like Soulassault, SoM, Veil of blades, Nova, or Meteor Ground dot you'll see that all these ults with much higher cooldown deal less damage while offering much easier counterplay by simply leaving an circle with 8m radius once rather than avoiding a 20m circle that is following you and has a brain.

When you get Soulassaulted by a healplar you are looking at 8-13k unmitigated damage maximum while he is channeling the ult meaning: he can't heal, he can't block, he can't use further attacks, he can't dodge, he can't mistform, he can't gapclose etc.
The same healplar can hit you with 25k Zaan procs while he can throw in another ult, more pressure, can heal himself or his allies while still hitting you with Zaan.


Procs need to scale with resources and damage while the tooltip is the maximum you can achieve with a fully optimised full damage build.

This set is overperfoming, you don't need a bunch of players abusing it to see that it's too strong.
In early 1933 no one in their right mind would've say, oh concentration camps aren't bad, only 20 guys died there and they could have changed their political views or religion we need more data to see if they are really bad.

Extinct_Solo_Player

I love how people say "just move away" good luck when u are snared and gap closer spammed = recap screen

Bosov

tbf.. i kinda agree. Look at the damage of that screenshot OP posted. The mag dk had no damage but gets the kill because of the monsterset. There are loads of magic DK and magic templars who wouldn never get a single kill but skoria/zaan gets them a kill. They can build to be a perma block tank but still have the burst because of a 2 piece monster set.

Like mentioned above.. damage monster sets should scale of your stats so only the min/maxed dps build can get full damage from a monsterset

Azurya

Waffennacht wrote: »

It's really really #$&+ing good and OP.

Either players like too much themselves, do not PvP, or just haven't faced it yet.

Sorry gents - if a dive being undodgeable was OP, Zaan is most definitely OP

NERF it NOW
and if not now, at least next monday!

Dubhliam

Slot a stun -> then walk away
or
Slot a gap closer -> jump to another player

L2P bro, 6 ticks of Zaan in your face is not pro gameplay.

BohnT

Dubhliam wrote: »

Slot a stun -> then walk away
or
Slot a gap closer -> jump to another player

L2P bro, 6 ticks of Zaan in your face is not pro gameplay.

What do you think a competent enemy will do when you stun them?

Guess they'll just sit there and wait for you to run away and don't break the cc or follow you.
If you think creating a gap of 10m in pvp is easy or possible for most classes , you haven't been to pvp.

It's not like they'll wait like a pve Boss for you to get into your safe space, no they'll be the ones spamming gapclosers, CCs while you are snared as every toolkit has atleast one snare in it.

I tested the set on the Pts, there was not a single fight where my enemies would eat less then all ticks, you get the proc and then you focus completely on wrecking your opponent and this will get the job done in 90% of all fights, in this game its much easier to catch someone than to get away from someone.

Waffennacht

You guys really shouldn't use counter play etc or even math to determine if something should be nerfed, ZoS doesn't.

Quite frankly my test is: will low skill players easily die to it? - if yes, it gets nerfed (dive, soul assault, black rose, etc)
The other is: does it prevent low skill players from killin? If yes NERF AGAIN! (Trees, Panacea, Malubeth)

You guys and your silly logic

Xsorus

Ate this set twice so far...both times i was pretty much screwed from the sheer damage it puts out with other damage coming in.

AddictionX

BohnT wrote: »

Before anyone from PvE comes here and says: Mah precious Zaan i need the 2k extra dps for reasons, dam pvpers always ruin the fun yadayadayada.

Read this post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/394278/pve-pvp-nerfs#latest

You haven't even put one foot into pvp but claim to know how every set works in all situations versus all classes.

1. You cannot break the set with LoS and you can't get away 10m to break the beam it's not possible in a fight where the caster actually follows you which he'll do because it deals the most damage you can get on any build
2. When Zaan is applied to you you need all healing to only outheal Zaan, every further damage will go straight through and kill you.
3. the damage of Zaan is absolutely ridiculous, a heal build with Zaan can hit for 25k damage while the same build deals 4k damage with a meteor. I did some testing to see how much damage i could get with Zaan and i ended up with a 39k damage on a player over 5 seconds, that is 8k dps from a single proc, 8k dps in pvp is something you'll never have against a player with a full damage build but with Zaan you can get 5k dps easily on builds which were unable to kill anything on their own
4. Dps matters here as it implies the pressure on the healing of your enemy, stamina chars look at an average 2,5-3.5k hps now we compare that to 5k damage per second and we see that one 2pc set is enough to completely remove each and all healing while you can still attack your target

This set is beyond op along with Caluurion’s that hits for 6-8k each proc and needs to be nerfed in these ways:

Lower the range to 5m
Reduce the damage increase per tick to 25% and increase the duration to 9 seconds (~same dps)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B01o2xtJwgk

Malmai

PVP an PVE should be seperated since release...

Sergykid

Malmai wrote: »

PVP an PVE should be seperated since release...

no, game should be balanced for pvp, then adjust pve based on the pvp balances. A boss will not complain that it's hit harder or the X class deals less damage.

Destruent

Sergykid wrote: »

Malmai wrote: »

PVP an PVE should be seperated since release...

no, game should be balanced for pvp, then adjust pve based on the pvp balances. A boss will not complain that it's hit harder or the X class deals less damage.

no, but players will complain if their class underperforms in pve.

BohnT

Destruent wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

Malmai wrote: »

PVP an PVE should be seperated since release...

no, game should be balanced for pvp, then adjust pve based on the pvp balances. A boss will not complain that it's hit harder or the X class deals less damage.

no, but players will complain if their class underperforms in pve.

The boss won't complain however if he gets nerfed.
Also Balancing around pvp doesn't mean PvE is left out in the rain, you just focus on PvP balance first and then do the PvE balance accordingly.

Destruent

BohnT wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

Malmai wrote: »

PVP an PVE should be seperated since release...

no, game should be balanced for pvp, then adjust pve based on the pvp balances. A boss will not complain that it's hit harder or the X class deals less damage.

no, but players will complain if their class underperforms in pve.

The boss won't complain however if he gets nerfed.
Also Balancing around pvp doesn't mean PvE is left out in the rain, you just focus on PvP balance first and then do the PvE balance accordingly.

This won't make underperforming classes in pve any better...it just makes content easier. ZOS will have to do balance qith both aspects in mind...doesn't work otherwise without screwing anything completely.

Salvas_Aren

I suggest that for 1 month all set effects are deactivated.

Then ppl can only complain about their lack of skill.

gnarlyvandal

BohnT wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

Malmai wrote: »

PVP an PVE should be seperated since release...

no, game should be balanced for pvp, then adjust pve based on the pvp balances. A boss will not complain that it's hit harder or the X class deals less damage.

no, but players will complain if their class underperforms in pve.

The boss won't complain however if he gets nerfed.
Also Balancing around pvp doesn't mean PvE is left out in the rain, you just focus on PvP balance first and then do the PvE balance accordingly.

Am I remembering wrong, or isnt ESO supposed to be a single player game with multiplayer content? Yes they have the hard mode end game, and yes pvp exists (as in every mmo), but PVP was never the focus for elder scrolls, which is why the majority of gameplay is story driven (and includes soooo many books which include Elder scrolls lore....)

Don’t get me wrong, I love a good pvp session, but it should NEVER be the focus of story driven mmo. I would much rather play through a game with difficult boss’ to overcome rather than just another pvp game. There are so many games geared towards this. Want to spend all your time In PVP and believe a game should be based off of such? Get on your console of choice and play a PVP game. Such as: Fortnite, PUBG, COD, Destiny... etc just cause a game has pvp in it doesn’t mean that PVP should be the spreadsheet from which decisions about the game are made.

An easy way to balance pvp and pve is simply to provide sets for specific purposes, just like trials offer gear sets that increase dps done or received IN DUNGEONS OR TRIALS, there could be sets for pvp that increase dps done or received in battlegrounds. These could even be the same sets just with different 3pc bonus. E.g. infallible aether obtained in Craglorn = for trials vs infallible aether obtained in IC = for pvp with minor slayer bonus (but having the 3pc as ‘deals 5% extra damage to players in battlegrounds’). This could be rolled out in much the same way as imperfect and perfect asylum staffs. Exactly the same item, different tooltip. Standardises end game builds and gives players something to work towards. Want variety? Can slap that bonus on, say, 3 different sets per class? Which would add variation and counter potential.

This could be gated however you like, behind a certain number of plays, purchasing with AP, RNG from certain fights, etc etc

Oh btw, the boss won’t complain if he gets nerfed, but I sure will. What’s the point in spending so much time practicing rotation and obtaining gear when ANYTHING new that offers an alternative play style is nerfed to the ground? When actually playing the content in the game means there is no inherent risk to the character? In fact, what would be the point in playing at all? The PVE content in this game is TOO EASY already, the only challenge I’ve been offered is vMA but I’ve completed that now on over a dozen occasions.

And even after completing it this many times, I’ve only realised today that I’ve been LA weaving wrong and could probably add 10k dps to my rotation. Still managed to get through what I consider to be ESO’s hardest content without that boost...
Yes we need balance, but don’t make the game suffer unnecessarily.

I might be salty, but I miss ES: 4 Oblivion’s days of spellcrafting my own skills.
That and using glitchy paintbrushes to climb in and out of sealed off mages guild areas on new chars to do so :’)

Juju_beans

Honestly, it's a sad day when your death recap shows you got killed by "gear" and not a player