Let's talk about Zaan: It needs adjustments

jakeedmundson

Minalan wrote: »

MagDK already viable, do they really need an ‘I win!’ Set?

....wut?

Cage_Lizardman

I've killed people with this set that I normally wouldn't be able to kill. Most people do not even try to get away from it, though that might change with time. Of course it's OP, but they nerfed soul assault which good pvp'ers just laughed at anyway (I don't usually die to that myself even), so I'm certainly going to enjoy this while it lasts.

Also I've found ballista more useful than soul assault now, and I see a lot more people using it, so I guess that one is the next to be nerfed.

josiahva

Minalan wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

if it was not obvious enough, to all the people that came here to type "L2P" or "git gud", thanks for coming into the discussion, but you can leave, you're not helping.

y`all say "just move away" yeah like a mdk when it procs won't just leap me then talons. Or u know, any other class can just hug me while i try to run away. I don't roll dodge 10 meters. Even if i dodge 2 times or sprint away, i have to give away so many resources for a free 15k damage from the enemy.

and PvE-ers, nobody said nerf its damage, we say nerf the way it deals damage. Sure let it deal 35k damage, but in a longer period or from a shorter distance. That would do no change to a pve dps. In pvp timed well with a cc and a ult will just kill a target very fast, like it wasn't fast enough without it.

i can just imagine some op tanks that don't die that permablock and then when it procs switch to 2h dizzy dbos execute.

Cant have magicka DK actually viable in PvP now...considering how impossible the class was to play for the longest time, its a much needed buff to the class. it really is not hard to get away from a magicka DK...they dont use leap, the worst you have to worry about is chains and talons...easily countered by say...mist form

MagDK already viable, do they really need an ‘I win!’ Set?

I knew it was only a matter of time until a few of you MagDK figured this set out and started using it. And now the MagDK forum warriors will line up and defend it!

What are you talking about? I barely PvP these days, but Mag DK hasn't been viable for a LONG time. I haven't bothered to get this set, it doesn't much interest me, just like Viper and Selene didn't interest me when they were the flavor of the month. I am thrilled to see Mag DK have a new tool to stand a chance against Elder Wardens Online, but know it will just be nerfed...and MDK along with it(for the billionth time)

KingYogi415

Minalan wrote: »

Fossil, powerlash, zaan proc. Then it’s pretty much back to the respawn with you, every single time from any MagDK.

No wonder so many people don’t want it nerfed!

What kind of sets are these mag dk’s running?

Ch4mpTW

Waffennacht wrote: »

You cannot say frag with a stun was OP
You cannot say undodgeable birds was OP
You cannot say Malubeth on a Templar was OP
You cannot say Troll King was OP
You cannot say cloak was OP
You cannot say Sub Assault is OP
You cannot say Soul Assault is OP

And say Zaan is not OP

@Waffennacht But comrade, you and I both know full well that none of those things you listed were truly “overpowered”. Except for Troll King. That set should’ve NEVER been created. To keep it a buck with you, I didn’t even find Sorcerers being able to Bolt Escape without penalty overpowered, nor the ability to cast wards which were as long as they were back in the day. Actually, I didn’t even find stamina regeneration while blocking too much of a big deal either way back when. Why? Because for starters, the game was more balanced back then (class-wise). Plus, it all boiled down to adjusting to what you were up against on the fly.

It wasn’t until ZOS began super-buffing Nightblades, that I began finding issues regarding balance and feeling like things needed nerfs. Mind you, this was in the era of chaos from invisible cold fire damage. This was when proc sets being able to crit was something you shrugged off, and if you complained about them, you’d probably get made fun of horribly and trolled beyond belief.

Again, it wasn’t until these “super buffs” came along, and we started seeing these goofy-ass builds that were doing way too much. People 1-shotting folks from their gear alone activating, the emergence of unkillable tanks, Templars having obnoxiously high healing, etc. That was when balance went out the window, and we began getting introduced to what we would soon experience current day.

ak_pvp

Waffennacht wrote: »

You cannot say frag with a stun was OP
You cannot say undodgeable birds was OP
You cannot say Malubeth on a Templar was OP
You cannot say Troll King was OP
You cannot say cloak was OP
You cannot say Sub Assault is OP
You cannot say Soul Assault is OP

And say Zaan is not OP

Undodgabirb, soul and malu were probably the only hard OP things quoted due to limited counters. (No defile meta back then for malu)

Zaan however can be easily outranged, cloaked, streaked or purged. Even a roll or two should free you. Not to mention it is ST with a high cooldown.

The only place it might be an issue is if hard ccd by a DK or an NB. Since both of them keeps you within range for longer than a normal cc. Fear being how it is and Foss's root. But then it's proc isn't perfectly predictable, what if target is cc immune. Then it is wasted for another 18s (probably 20)

I encountered it and just misted away. Now that guy has a cooldown on something I will do again. But I am fine with the idea of halving its damage and duration. That way its more forgiving for PVE and doesn't get whined about. But I highly doubt ZOS will do that and will probably ruin the set altogether.

Joy_Division

magorim wrote: »

Hi,

is it really necessary that two pieces of armor are doing such a huge free damage without costing ressources or some form of downsides? I mean, I was lagging and it was hard to get away from the beam on top of wonky weapon swapping but ~19k damage from just two armor pieces is not balanced it's stupid and broken.
And before the PvE heros start to cry, it's not balanced in PvE, too. Far from it. It should always be the player doing high damage and it should cost ressources (ultimate, stamina, magicka) to achieve it.

So I used this OP set that has "free damage" and no "downsides".

After an hour of PvP, the set hit a single player for 2 damage procs. That was that and put it into my bank and am never using it again.

There are plenty of downsides. Its magicka melee, only procs off light attack (and only 20% chance at that), and requires you to stay within melee range of the target.

Compare this to sets like Selenes which proc any any melee attack and do not require slow immobile melee classes (DKs and temps) to maintain contact with opponents who are more maneuverable.

This set has such strict conditions, it has to have a strong effect. But that doesn't matter at all to a lot of people, because it's a big fancy number on a death recap.

Waffennacht

Joy_Division wrote: »

magorim wrote: »

Hi,

is it really necessary that two pieces of armor are doing such a huge free damage without costing ressources or some form of downsides? I mean, I was lagging and it was hard to get away from the beam on top of wonky weapon swapping but ~19k damage from just two armor pieces is not balanced it's stupid and broken.
And before the PvE heros start to cry, it's not balanced in PvE, too. Far from it. It should always be the player doing high damage and it should cost ressources (ultimate, stamina, magicka) to achieve it.

So I used this OP set that has "free damage" and no "downsides".

After an hour of PvP, the set hit a single player for 2 damage procs. That was that and put it into my bank and am never using it again.

There are plenty of downsides. Its magicka melee, only procs off light attack (and only 20% chance at that), and requires you to stay within melee range of the target.

Compare this to sets like Selenes which proc any any melee attack and do not require slow immobile melee classes (DKs and temps) to maintain contact with opponents who are more maneuverable.

This set has such strict conditions, it has to have a strong effect. But that doesn't matter at all to a lot of people, because it's a big fancy number on a death recap.

What did you use it on?

Temp and DK get a huge benefit from it. (Especially heavy armor)

With my temp, I slot Toppling to close the gap, and with Vamp bane + puncturing sweeps + even ritual, you won't escape unless running 2h/vamp. (Even then I do have a gap closer). I'm already seeing more and more people running the same set up I do


I personally don't like any nerfs, but from ZoS' previous decisions, this falls under the same circumstances that they have deemed OP in the past.

TheDoomsdayMonster

ArchMikem wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Whilst I could see the way the thread would go, I do think OP has a point but the point in general is around the power Proc sets have in the game.

Personally id prefer them removed, PvE and PvP alike. There's zero skill in your armour killing things, its what weapons are for.

It's embarrassing when the PvE crew start talking about how unfair it is they get Nerfs..i mean its not like the game is hard for PvE players, beyond a very small % of content PvE is pretty straight forward to steam roll on any half baked setup. And if you need a Proc set to be OP for you to be good in PvE, well..... Then its those players they need to get gud not the OP.

You realise there are roughly 60-70 sets in this game (if not more) that are consider proc-sets? Removing them all is simply unrealistic. Even a total overhaul is unrealistic.

The reason most PvE content is face-rolled is due to more and more players getting comfortable with the content. When HotR patch was released the new dungeons was very difficult to complete, now it´s ez-peez and you can even PUG hardmode in Bloodroot and Falkreath Hold without much trouble. Same thing will happen to the new dungeons. In a few weeks Scalecaller Peak and Fanglair will be facerolled by most players as well. No one is carried by either CP or proc-sets in PvE. A bad player won´t become a god or even average just because they equip a few proc-sets doing their damage.

And frankly, most BiS PvE setups doesn´t even use proc-sets anymore due to them being so ineffective (unless you call mechanical acuity a proc-set, which it actually is).

Proc-sets isn´t nearly as powerful in PvE as people want to believe.......

If it is as you say adjusting a proc set for the sake of PvP balance wouldn't be a problem though. Yet still here we are with PvE players on the crusade for their precious Zaan proc.

Probably not, how would a decent change look like? I´ve read suggestions about increasing the damage by 25% for each tick instead of 50%, but let the beam persist longer. Would that be a decent change? Or decreasing the length of the beam? I don´t know really since I haven´t tried it in PvP.

And that is the problem in this discussion, everyone defending it has never tried this set in pvp or had an encounter where the enemy was using it

PvP is already a ganking, steamrolling nightmare where the average encounter lasts 5sec. What possible difference does this one set make in the grand scheme of an already crappy gamemode? Fights are now 4sec?

Unless I am steamrolling a bad player, my 1v1 fights are significantly longer than 5 secs...

If fights are concluding that fast, then you have 2 pure glass canons attempting to burst the other down without attempting to defend themselves one bit...

TheDoomsdayMonster

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I have to agree with OP. During Dragon Bones PTS people (and not just casual players - hard core pvp & pve veterans) stated multiple times that zaan is super over-performing and its dmg needs to be toned down. Instead of decreasing dmg zos removed crit requirement for the proc to occur and increased cooldown. By doing so zos basically gave a tank-sustain focus build (that dont have to build high crit chance) free source of dmg easily comparable with soul assult. If any one remember - the same issue existed with viper set (and that is why viper was nerfed to oblivion).

I 100% agree...

Anyone who had truly seen this set in action (when properly utilized) that says this set isn't overperforming is lying through their teeth...

JinMori

Lol, another nerf because of pvp, color me surprised.....

Do you get the drift zos?

Waffennacht

JinMori wrote: »

Lol, another nerf because of pvp, color me surprised.....

Do you get the drift zos?

I really don't get why PvE players get outta shape over PvP balance.

Could you not complete all the content before the introduction of Zaan?

What PvE content do you feel you can no longer complete because of balance changes?

If it's just the fact you have to adjust your character, or use different gear, that's a pretty weak argument for letting PvP balance go to the way-side

Skander

When it does 23k to your 32k spell resist templar. You know something is wrong

Grabmoore

Waffennacht wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Lol, another nerf because of pvp, color me surprised.....

Do you get the drift zos?

I really don't get why PvE players get outta shape over PvP balance.

Could you not complete all the content before the introduction of Zaan?

What PvE content do you feel you can no longer complete because of balance changes?

If it's just the fact you have to adjust your character, or use different gear, that's a pretty weak argument for letting PvP balance go to the way-side

I really don't get why console players get outta shape over balance at all

Seriously... this set only supports the weakest PvE DDs - meele magicka characters. I'm sure it will get adjusted because of unnecessary PvP whine, which is clearly a L2P issue. It's annoying so say the least.

Kalfis

Delete PvP

Just cuz I said so.

Sixty5

Just for kicks, I got a mate to hit me with a full Zaan Proc on my stam sorc.
At 22k resistances (not sure what his Penetration was) I took about 17k damage.
That might sound disgusting, but I didn't try to heal, I didn't block, I just stood there and ate the entire proc. If I block, that gets halved. If I pop major ward, the damage also gets cut.
The part of the Zaan proc that actually hurts is the last two ticks of the beam. this means that you have 3 seconds to break the beam, and you've cut the damage of the set down to less than that of a Skoria proc.

josiahva wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

if it was not obvious enough, to all the people that came here to type "L2P" or "git gud", thanks for coming into the discussion, but you can leave, you're not helping.

y`all say "just move away" yeah like a mdk when it procs won't just leap me then talons. Or u know, any other class can just hug me while i try to run away. I don't roll dodge 10 meters. Even if i dodge 2 times or sprint away, i have to give away so many resources for a free 15k damage from the enemy.

and PvE-ers, nobody said nerf its damage, we say nerf the way it deals damage. Sure let it deal 35k damage, but in a longer period or from a shorter distance. That would do no change to a pve dps. In pvp timed well with a cc and a ult will just kill a target very fast, like it wasn't fast enough without it.

i can just imagine some op tanks that don't die that permablock and then when it procs switch to 2h dizzy dbos execute.

Cant have magicka DK actually viable in PvP now...considering how impossible the class was to play for the longest time, its a much needed buff to the class. it really is not hard to get away from a magicka DK...they dont use leap, the worst you have to worry about is chains and talons...easily countered by say...mist form

MagDK already viable, do they really need an ‘I win!’ Set?

I knew it was only a matter of time until a few of you MagDK figured this set out and started using it. And now the MagDK forum warriors will line up and defend it!

What are you talking about? I barely PvP these days, but Mag DK hasn't been viable for a LONG time. I haven't bothered to get this set, it doesn't much interest me, just like Viper and Selene didn't interest me when they were the flavor of the month. I am thrilled to see Mag DK have a new tool to stand a chance against Elder Wardens Online, but know it will just be nerfed...and MDK along with it(for the billionth time)

I'm seeing at least 2 Mag DK's in pretty much every Battlegrounds match I play. The class is doing just fine in PVP.

Vermintide

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'm seeing at least 2 Mag DK's in pretty much every Battlegrounds match I play. The class is doing just fine in PVP.

That alone shows how myopic and biased players are. The level of discourse is almost childish, all we have is people transparently standing up for the sets/classes/abilities they personally use.

MagDKs who think they are underpowered, lord give me strength.

Ihatenightblades

VilniusNastavnik wrote: »

How bout no. PvE has had to suffer through nerf after nerf after nerf because PvP

[Edit to remove bait]

You must suck at dps if you need a proc set ( that doesnt crit ) to do good dps xD

Do you even pve? Or are you just pushing those same ol repeated talking points everytime someone asks for a balance for pvp.

I do 40k solo dps 60+k stam dps in raid setting. Zaan isnt gonna change that.

JamilaRaj

I am pretty sure that if overland mob opened with talons, lash and 19K beam of fire gainst "Zaan is fine, get 10 meters away" PvE people, MikaS would have busy day here on forums.

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

I've killed people with this set that I normally wouldn't be able to kill. Most people do not even try to get away from it, though that might change with time. Of course it's OP, but they nerfed soul assault which good pvp'ers just laughed at anyway (I don't usually die to that myself even), so I'm certainly going to enjoy this while it lasts.

Also I've found ballista more useful than soul assault now, and I see a lot more people using it, so I guess that one is the next to be nerfed.

Me too. However, they usually use wet noodle launcher only after stealing it from me when I release it during reload.

Feanor

I am pretty sure that if overland mob opened with talons, lash and 19K beam of fire gainst "Zaan is fine, get 10 meters away" PvE people, MikaS would have busy day here on forums.

I’d so love that

Vahrokh

Masel92 wrote: »

It was only a matter of time until people from PvP cried about it.

It always is. Even if game had been based on simple auto-attacks, PvPers would still cry and get it nerfed.

Feanor

@Masel92

Again, if it’s not even good in PvE according to you, why the outcry if players are concerned for balance in PvP? Adjusting the set is totally possible without destroying it.

WrathOfInnos

Ihatenightblades wrote: »

I do 40k solo dps 60+k stam dps in raid setting. Zaan isnt gonna change that.

These numbers from stam DPS are the exact reason why melee Magicka (DK and Temp) are not wanted in trials. Zaan is maybe a 1-2k DPS gain in PVE compared to other sets (Skoria, Grothdarr, Ilambris). The set alone is not enough to earn them a melee DPS spot, but it is a small step in the right direction. The massive backlash from PVPers that saw this in their death recap (not talking about all PVPers, just the whiny ones), after doing nothing to counter it, is counterproductive to making all classes relevant in PVE.

Joy_Division

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

magorim wrote: »

Hi,

is it really necessary that two pieces of armor are doing such a huge free damage without costing ressources or some form of downsides? I mean, I was lagging and it was hard to get away from the beam on top of wonky weapon swapping but ~19k damage from just two armor pieces is not balanced it's stupid and broken.
And before the PvE heros start to cry, it's not balanced in PvE, too. Far from it. It should always be the player doing high damage and it should cost ressources (ultimate, stamina, magicka) to achieve it.

So I used this OP set that has "free damage" and no "downsides".

After an hour of PvP, the set hit a single player for 2 damage procs. That was that and put it into my bank and am never using it again.

There are plenty of downsides. Its magicka melee, only procs off light attack (and only 20% chance at that), and requires you to stay within melee range of the target.

Compare this to sets like Selenes which proc any any melee attack and do not require slow immobile melee classes (DKs and temps) to maintain contact with opponents who are more maneuverable.

This set has such strict conditions, it has to have a strong effect. But that doesn't matter at all to a lot of people, because it's a big fancy number on a death recap.

What did you use it on?

Temp and DK get a huge benefit from it. (Especially heavy armor)

With my temp, I slot Toppling to close the gap, and with Vamp bane + puncturing sweeps + even ritual, you won't escape unless running 2h/vamp. (Even then I do have a gap closer). I'm already seeing more and more people running the same set up I do


I personally don't like any nerfs, but from ZoS' previous decisions, this falls under the same circumstances that they have deemed OP in the past.

Melee templar.

There's no way this set is better against experienced or mobile players than Skoria. Only in controlled environments like duels would I even consider Zaan

Waffennacht

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

magorim wrote: »

Hi,

is it really necessary that two pieces of armor are doing such a huge free damage without costing ressources or some form of downsides? I mean, I was lagging and it was hard to get away from the beam on top of wonky weapon swapping but ~19k damage from just two armor pieces is not balanced it's stupid and broken.
And before the PvE heros start to cry, it's not balanced in PvE, too. Far from it. It should always be the player doing high damage and it should cost ressources (ultimate, stamina, magicka) to achieve it.

So I used this OP set that has "free damage" and no "downsides".

After an hour of PvP, the set hit a single player for 2 damage procs. That was that and put it into my bank and am never using it again.

There are plenty of downsides. Its magicka melee, only procs off light attack (and only 20% chance at that), and requires you to stay within melee range of the target.

Compare this to sets like Selenes which proc any any melee attack and do not require slow immobile melee classes (DKs and temps) to maintain contact with opponents who are more maneuverable.

This set has such strict conditions, it has to have a strong effect. But that doesn't matter at all to a lot of people, because it's a big fancy number on a death recap.

What did you use it on?

Temp and DK get a huge benefit from it. (Especially heavy armor)

With my temp, I slot Toppling to close the gap, and with Vamp bane + puncturing sweeps + even ritual, you won't escape unless running 2h/vamp. (Even then I do have a gap closer). I'm already seeing more and more people running the same set up I do


I personally don't like any nerfs, but from ZoS' previous decisions, this falls under the same circumstances that they have deemed OP in the past.

Melee templar.

There's no way this set is better against experienced or mobile players than Skoria. Only in controlled environments like duels would I even consider Zaan

Or BGs, where proc damage is even more meaningful, and running away costs points

Edit: and when has ZoS not used the lowest common denominator when deciding buffs or nerfs?

Malamar1229

ParaNostram wrote: »

If you die to Zaan you would die to Eye of the Storm. Seriously it's not hard to counter, you just move away from it. I can see your problem in your death cap OP, you were rooted and did not roll away.

Goodness gracious golly gee. Enough people are complaining though so expect a NERF imminent.

Except this isn't the case.
There are CC's that are not breaking in time like fossilize.

Hortator Indoril Nerevar

Nah.

Malamar1229

Joy_Division wrote: »

magorim wrote: »

Hi,

is it really necessary that two pieces of armor are doing such a huge free damage without costing ressources or some form of downsides? I mean, I was lagging and it was hard to get away from the beam on top of wonky weapon swapping but ~19k damage from just two armor pieces is not balanced it's stupid and broken.
And before the PvE heros start to cry, it's not balanced in PvE, too. Far from it. It should always be the player doing high damage and it should cost ressources (ultimate, stamina, magicka) to achieve it.

So I used this OP set that has "free damage" and no "downsides".

After an hour of PvP, the set hit a single player for 2 damage procs. That was that and put it into my bank and am never using it again.

There are plenty of downsides. Its magicka melee, only procs off light attack (and only 20% chance at that), and requires you to stay within melee range of the target.

Compare this to sets like Selenes which proc any any melee attack and do not require slow immobile melee classes (DKs and temps) to maintain contact with opponents who are more maneuverable.

This set has such strict conditions, it has to have a strong effect. But that doesn't matter at all to a lot of people, because it's a big fancy number on a death recap.

@Joy_Division what class were you playin? I have seen this set deadly on a stam blade.

EDIT- sorry just saw above post about what class you were playing

ecru

jakeedmundson wrote: »

.

Waffennacht wrote: »

It's really really #$&+ing good and OP.

Either players like too much themselves, do not PvP, or just haven't faced it yet.

Sorry gents - if a dive being undodgeable was OP, Zaan is most definitely OP

Cool, lets nerf it then. Why would pve folks need anything to gain from doing the new content? OR even buying the new dlcs or continuing to pay for eso+?

Lets just keep throwing all that new gear in the garbage because people are getting killed by it 1 week after the dlc dropped... don't try to work anything out and find a solution in game or anything. Lets just complain until it gets a senseless nerf so no one uses it.

FYI, for pve this set is BARELY better than illambris for single target damage. 500 dps more from some recent parses i've seen.
Illambris totals around 2.5k and zaan gets close to 3k... except illambris hits an area and procs at range.

lol relax, no one is suggesting nerfing it in pve

ak_pvp

JamilaRaj wrote: »

I am pretty sure that if overland mob opened with talons, lash and 19K beam of fire gainst "Zaan is fine, get 10 meters away" PvE people, MikaS would have busy day here on forums.

Cage_Lizardman wrote: »

I've killed people with this set that I normally wouldn't be able to kill. Most people do not even try to get away from it, though that might change with time. Of course it's OP, but they nerfed soul assault which good pvp'ers just laughed at anyway (I don't usually die to that myself even), so I'm certainly going to enjoy this while it lasts.

Also I've found ballista more useful than soul assault now, and I see a lot more people using it, so I guess that one is the next to be nerfed.

Me too. However, they usually use wet noodle launcher only after stealing it from me when I release it during reload.

I am pretty sure if an overland mob opened with curse, frags, fury or sub, wreaking blow, DB then people would be equally as salty.

I don't think Zaan is OP (Unless being Xv1'd like mad) I don't think sub assault is OP. But if a ST 19k dot that is breakable is. Then an 8k burst AoE debuff is too. Both of these can be outplayed by movement. Git gud.