Remove cloak completely

Didgerion

Vilestride wrote: »

Cloak may be frustrating at times if you don't have anything equipped to deal with it. But that is far from saying it is overpowered. There is plenty of counterplay if it really is that difficult for you to deal with.

I suggest first simply carrying detect pots at the least.

Nightblades do not get many defensive passives and are typically very easy to kill when caught, so to speak. Cloak is a relatively balanced defensive mechanic that night blade needs to be viable. Not to mention class defining. Stealthy, is an entire play style that many, many people love. Asking for that to be removed is kinda selfish don't you think?

Not many defensive passives = Lots of offensive passives plus the Cloak that carry another offensive passive.
And they are not easy to kill when they are not using the cloak - they have same survivability potential as stamina sorcs have for example. But again they can cloak and have an insane burst and insane debuffs and self buffs.

Yes, they seem more squishy without cloak because they build up for glass canons to land that deadly quick bursts.

Also beside Cloak they have Shadow Image as well and if you manage to brake their cloak then they just ports out and they are gone....except they are not gone - but behind your back waiting to land another deadly 2 shot combo.

Drdeath20

My problem is that there is no world skill that allows a quasi alternative for non nightblades.

They took class defining stuff from templars and provided world skill alternatives that are competitve to class skills.

purge is in the same ball park as cleanse.
Orbs is very comparable to shards.

technohic

Drdeath20 wrote: »

My problem is that there is no world skill that allows a quasi alternative for non nightblades.

They took class defining stuff from templars and provided world skill alternatives that are competitve to class skills.

purge is in the same ball park as cleanse.
Orbs is very comparable to shards.

There's potions.

Didgerion

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

How about you go find a different PVP game that suits your playstyle instead of changing one already made that millions love .

Millions?
I don't see millions in PVP area - not even thousands.

And if you care about this game you don't do such claims as you can wake up one day and find yourself alone on the mega server that millions love.

NBs need to be tuned down a bit for PVP same as Stam Wardens do.

Personally I believe that there should not be invisibility in PVP area.
And my argument is simple: Thieves Guild DLC - ZOS got rid of snicking there using that white circle thing.
Why they did it? - Everyone can give their version of the answer here - and all of them is applicable to PVP area.

VaranisArano

Vapirko wrote: »

I really don’t say this ever, but this legit sounds like you got your ass kicked by one too many NBs and is a l2p issue. NB is just one of the classes I play so having played as one and against many, cloak is not OP. There are many hard counters to cloak including detect pots, magelight, hurricane, jabs, sub assault, mark target, caltrops, and DKs explosive armor or whatever it’s called, and these are just a few. Have you ever tried slotting a skill that works against cloak?

Note: stop chasing stamblades off into the distance.

Stamblades stop running off to throw up a rez camp for your buddies who just died, and we'll stop chasing stamblades.

montjie

technohic wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

All these cloakspammers in denial ghegheghe

Sixty5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I think the heal mechanism needs to be removed (atleast in pvp areas) completely.

This mechanism has no place, especially in PVP.
It immensely decreases the gameplay needed (skillwise) to get anything done as a templar. And i understand why this is something good from devs standpoint.
But looking at it from an coherent viewpoint, it lessen the enjoyment overall - imo.

Now why is this? - Because, as it seems to me atm, it is just being used in the following manner: purge->heal->purge->heal etc etc.
Very few templars actually use it in a strategically way, excluding just spamming it in accordance with above.

It is just not satisfying to fight heal spamming templars, and the majority will keep playing in this way if they're allowed to do so. Take it from them for the sake of the overall health of the PVP community.

Can give us something like: grants minor protection, minor resolve and minor ward for 20 sec when activated.

Healing. Totally OP.

You can make the same argument for Ults with DKs or Shields on Sorcs.



Cloak is one of the few class defining skills that actually has counterplay

Expert Hunter/Inner Light - Highly inefficient. Even volatile armor is more effective in getting cloakspammers out of stealth than these pieces of crap
Detect pots - Yeah lets waste 45 seconds of pot uptime for 16 seconds of chasing down a shaded figure in a poopingposition while not being able to hit him with targeted abilities only to watch him disappear after those 16 seconds. Now youre standing there without a pot to protect you from that surprise attack (which you know is coming) followed by that incap (if the cloakspammer dabbled around long enough while u were playing tag)
Revealing Flare - lol

Steel tornado - Works nice but who runs steel tornado in PvP xD
Arrow Spray
Wall of Elements

DK's - Volatile Armor, Engulfing Flames/Noxious Breath
Templars - Jabs,
Sorcs - Streak but by the time u touch ground and turn around the spammer is in cloak again lol, Hurricane
Wardens - Impaling Shards (I guess)..srry stamwardens
NBs - *** nb's xD

So yeah the counters any1 has access to are pretty much useless against a decent cloakspammer and some classes don't even have other counters beyond those. If you run certain classes and/or builds you're completely at the mercy of the skilllevel of the cloakspammer.

You really think this isnt a problem or at least should be adressed in one way or the other?

Edit: forgot about the weapon abilities and flare

You also miss some with Templars, Unstable core (I spam that on NBs), blazing spear, solar barrage is possible if a NB is trying to sneak in for melee for some reason,

Sorcs have curse which a lot of NBs absolutely hate.

EDIT:

Caltrops
Volley
Impulse

Ah yeah, totally forgot about solar barrage

the rest dont take nbs out of cloak they prevent them from entering it..curse being bit of both
And those AOE abilities you mentioned are far from being viable counters. Maybe a sorc can find a way to slot caltrops using its overload bar but somehow I dont see many people running caltrops on their bars in open world situations. Same goes for the other two

Universe

HaroniNDeorum wrote: »

Zos should make cloak as Streak, increase the cost 50% if used in less than 4 seconds. Its bs the spamm of that ability without penalty.

This is reasonable
@ZOS_Wrobel

Didgerion

montjie wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

All these cloakspammers in denial ghegheghe

Sixty5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I think the heal mechanism needs to be removed (atleast in pvp areas) completely.

This mechanism has no place, especially in PVP.
It immensely decreases the gameplay needed (skillwise) to get anything done as a templar. And i understand why this is something good from devs standpoint.
But looking at it from an coherent viewpoint, it lessen the enjoyment overall - imo.

Now why is this? - Because, as it seems to me atm, it is just being used in the following manner: purge->heal->purge->heal etc etc.
Very few templars actually use it in a strategically way, excluding just spamming it in accordance with above.

It is just not satisfying to fight heal spamming templars, and the majority will keep playing in this way if they're allowed to do so. Take it from them for the sake of the overall health of the PVP community.

Can give us something like: grants minor protection, minor resolve and minor ward for 20 sec when activated.

Healing. Totally OP.

You can make the same argument for Ults with DKs or Shields on Sorcs.



Cloak is one of the few class defining skills that actually has counterplay

Expert Hunter/Inner Light - Highly inefficient. Even volatile armor is more effective in getting cloakspammers out of stealth than these pieces of crap
Detect pots - Yeah lets waste 45 seconds of pot uptime for 16 seconds of chasing down a shaded figure in a poopingposition while not being able to hit him with targeted abilities only to watch him disappear after those 16 seconds. Now youre standing there without a pot to protect you from that surprise attack (which you know is coming) followed by that incap (if the cloakspammer dabbled around long enough while u were playing tag)
Revealing Flare - lol

Steel tornado - Works nice but who runs steel tornado in PvP xD
Arrow Spray
Wall of Elements

DK's - Volatile Armor, Engulfing Flames/Noxious Breath
Templars - Jabs,
Sorcs - Streak but by the time u touch ground and turn around the spammer is in cloak again lol, Hurricane
Wardens - Impaling Shards (I guess)..srry stamwardens
NBs - *** nb's xD

So yeah the counters any1 has access to are pretty much useless against a decent cloakspammer and some classes don't even have other counters beyond those. If you run certain classes and/or builds you're completely at the mercy of the skilllevel of the cloakspammer.

You really think this isnt a problem or at least should be adressed in one way or the other?

Edit: forgot about the weapon abilities and flare

You also miss some with Templars, Unstable core (I spam that on NBs), blazing spear, solar barrage is possible if a NB is trying to sneak in for melee for some reason,

Sorcs have curse which a lot of NBs absolutely hate.

EDIT:

Caltrops
Volley
Impulse

Ah yeah, totally forgot about solar barrage

the rest dont take nbs out of cloak they prevent them from entering it..curse being bit of both
And those AOE abilities you mentioned are far from being viable counters. Maybe a sorc can find a way to slot caltrops using its overload bar but somehow I dont see many people running caltrops on their bars in open world situations. Same goes for the other two

Agree,
Keeping anything on your bar just to reveal NBs means crippling your build.
Also the invis-breaking pots - if you use that then you cripple your sustain.
NBs without cloak are as survivable as any other classes are out there - they have vigor, they have 2h heal ticks, they have rolldodge, they have impen armor. Breaking cloak does not mean that NB is totally defenseless and you can one click kill him.

Calboy

Didgerion wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

All these cloakspammers in denial ghegheghe

Sixty5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I think the heal mechanism needs to be removed (atleast in pvp areas) completely.

This mechanism has no place, especially in PVP.
It immensely decreases the gameplay needed (skillwise) to get anything done as a templar. And i understand why this is something good from devs standpoint.
But looking at it from an coherent viewpoint, it lessen the enjoyment overall - imo.

Now why is this? - Because, as it seems to me atm, it is just being used in the following manner: purge->heal->purge->heal etc etc.
Very few templars actually use it in a strategically way, excluding just spamming it in accordance with above.

It is just not satisfying to fight heal spamming templars, and the majority will keep playing in this way if they're allowed to do so. Take it from them for the sake of the overall health of the PVP community.

Can give us something like: grants minor protection, minor resolve and minor ward for 20 sec when activated.

Healing. Totally OP.

You can make the same argument for Ults with DKs or Shields on Sorcs.



Cloak is one of the few class defining skills that actually has counterplay

Expert Hunter/Inner Light - Highly inefficient. Even volatile armor is more effective in getting cloakspammers out of stealth than these pieces of crap
Detect pots - Yeah lets waste 45 seconds of pot uptime for 16 seconds of chasing down a shaded figure in a poopingposition while not being able to hit him with targeted abilities only to watch him disappear after those 16 seconds. Now youre standing there without a pot to protect you from that surprise attack (which you know is coming) followed by that incap (if the cloakspammer dabbled around long enough while u were playing tag)
Revealing Flare - lol

Steel tornado - Works nice but who runs steel tornado in PvP xD
Arrow Spray
Wall of Elements

DK's - Volatile Armor, Engulfing Flames/Noxious Breath
Templars - Jabs,
Sorcs - Streak but by the time u touch ground and turn around the spammer is in cloak again lol, Hurricane
Wardens - Impaling Shards (I guess)..srry stamwardens
NBs - *** nb's xD

So yeah the counters any1 has access to are pretty much useless against a decent cloakspammer and some classes don't even have other counters beyond those. If you run certain classes and/or builds you're completely at the mercy of the skilllevel of the cloakspammer.

You really think this isnt a problem or at least should be adressed in one way or the other?

Edit: forgot about the weapon abilities and flare

You also miss some with Templars, Unstable core (I spam that on NBs), blazing spear, solar barrage is possible if a NB is trying to sneak in for melee for some reason,

Sorcs have curse which a lot of NBs absolutely hate.

EDIT:

Caltrops
Volley
Impulse

Ah yeah, totally forgot about solar barrage

the rest dont take nbs out of cloak they prevent them from entering it..curse being bit of both
And those AOE abilities you mentioned are far from being viable counters. Maybe a sorc can find a way to slot caltrops using its overload bar but somehow I dont see many people running caltrops on their bars in open world situations. Same goes for the other two

Agree,
Keeping anything on your bar just to reveal NBs means crippling your build.
Also the invis-breaking pots - if you use that then you cripple your sustain.
NBs without cloak are as survivable as any other classes are out there - they have vigor, they have 2h heal ticks, they have rolldodge, they have impen armor. Breaking cloak does not mean that NB is totally defenseless and you can one click kill him.

its not crippling your build if it allows you to have a viable counter to 1 of 5 classes

technohic

Didgerion wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

All these cloakspammers in denial ghegheghe

Sixty5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I think the heal mechanism needs to be removed (atleast in pvp areas) completely.

This mechanism has no place, especially in PVP.
It immensely decreases the gameplay needed (skillwise) to get anything done as a templar. And i understand why this is something good from devs standpoint.
But looking at it from an coherent viewpoint, it lessen the enjoyment overall - imo.

Now why is this? - Because, as it seems to me atm, it is just being used in the following manner: purge->heal->purge->heal etc etc.
Very few templars actually use it in a strategically way, excluding just spamming it in accordance with above.

It is just not satisfying to fight heal spamming templars, and the majority will keep playing in this way if they're allowed to do so. Take it from them for the sake of the overall health of the PVP community.

Can give us something like: grants minor protection, minor resolve and minor ward for 20 sec when activated.

Healing. Totally OP.

You can make the same argument for Ults with DKs or Shields on Sorcs.



Cloak is one of the few class defining skills that actually has counterplay

Expert Hunter/Inner Light - Highly inefficient. Even volatile armor is more effective in getting cloakspammers out of stealth than these pieces of crap
Detect pots - Yeah lets waste 45 seconds of pot uptime for 16 seconds of chasing down a shaded figure in a poopingposition while not being able to hit him with targeted abilities only to watch him disappear after those 16 seconds. Now youre standing there without a pot to protect you from that surprise attack (which you know is coming) followed by that incap (if the cloakspammer dabbled around long enough while u were playing tag)
Revealing Flare - lol

Steel tornado - Works nice but who runs steel tornado in PvP xD
Arrow Spray
Wall of Elements

DK's - Volatile Armor, Engulfing Flames/Noxious Breath
Templars - Jabs,
Sorcs - Streak but by the time u touch ground and turn around the spammer is in cloak again lol, Hurricane
Wardens - Impaling Shards (I guess)..srry stamwardens
NBs - *** nb's xD

So yeah the counters any1 has access to are pretty much useless against a decent cloakspammer and some classes don't even have other counters beyond those. If you run certain classes and/or builds you're completely at the mercy of the skilllevel of the cloakspammer.

You really think this isnt a problem or at least should be adressed in one way or the other?

Edit: forgot about the weapon abilities and flare

You also miss some with Templars, Unstable core (I spam that on NBs), blazing spear, solar barrage is possible if a NB is trying to sneak in for melee for some reason,

Sorcs have curse which a lot of NBs absolutely hate.

EDIT:

Caltrops
Volley
Impulse

Ah yeah, totally forgot about solar barrage

the rest dont take nbs out of cloak they prevent them from entering it..curse being bit of both
And those AOE abilities you mentioned are far from being viable counters. Maybe a sorc can find a way to slot caltrops using its overload bar but somehow I dont see many people running caltrops on their bars in open world situations. Same goes for the other two

Agree,
Keeping anything on your bar just to reveal NBs means crippling your build.
Also the invis-breaking pots - if you use that then you cripple your sustain.
NBs without cloak are as survivable as any other classes are out there - they have vigor, they have 2h heal ticks, they have rolldodge, they have impen armor. Breaking cloak does not mean that NB is totally defenseless and you can one click kill him.

You are talking entirely about stamNB.

All this boils down to is "I don't want to use the counters because it cripples my build" which is really choices you make just as anyone going full range chose not to equip anything to fight reflect spammers. You want something to automatically take care of something someone else is doing for you without sacrifice yourself.

dotme

Lord wrote: »

HaroniNDeorum wrote: »

Zos should make cloak as Streak, increase the cost 50% if used in less than 4 seconds. Its bs the spamm of that ability without penalty.

This is reasonable
@ZOS_Wrobel

No, with all due respect it isn't. As a Stamina based nightblade, you'd be lucky to get 3, maybe 4 (with food) cloaks off before totally running out of magica as it is. I strongly suspect that most complaining (but not all) haven't really spent much time with the build. At the end of the day, I'm quite confident that ZOS has kill/death ratio numbers on every class in the game. They'll balance where needed, but I'm betting stamblades don't generally come very high on the k/d chart.

montjie

dotme wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

I dont think many players have problems fighting a nighblade who doesnt (ab)use the cloaking mechanisme tbh. I for one dont no matter what class I play. Its when they take away your ability to return fire simply by continually pressing one button and you having no choice but to take it, thats where the problem starts.

Well, from my experience, while a Sorc (for example) can have shields up while attacking, nightblades are out of stealth the moment they attack. There's no ability to remain invisible while firing an offensive skill. I don't mind nightblades because when I'm on mine, I see 'em, mark 'em, and then kill 'em. It's a challenge, but it's fun (unlike chasing tanks round and round trees or rocks... I usually just walk away from that... lol). Magelight is also a big stealth-killer/counter for NBs who like to lurk inside keeps. Caltrops work well out in the field.

I think anyone who PvPs runs into frustrating builds and situations. I know I do. I have trouble when on my NB bursting down a tank with 70K health, or a sorc with stacked shields totalling 30K or more on top of their health. I don't want them nerfed though. I'm okay with not being able to kill everyone who comes my way. I choose my targets carefully, and try not to get over-extended in any situation because with no shields and medium armor, I sure do die quickly

Lets say you encounter a cloakspammer, he jumps out of stealth to attack you and immediatly goes back into cloak, relocates, rinses and repeats. Over and over again. What benefit is there to gain from the fact that when he attacks he isnt invisible. By the time youre done getting defenses up hes already back in cloak. If u happen to fire of an offensive ability chances are high it is dodged by the cloak activation
And youre a nb yourself..Hmm and you find it a challenge to take away some1s only defending capabilty (thats what all nbs say right xD) by spamming 1 ability and then kill him? Or am i reading your words wrong?
If u want a real challenge you could go fight a cloakspammer as a stamwarden running 2h:P Add in a bit of lag to make it truely challenging

Trying to burst down a 70k health player?
So you choose your targets carefully, yeah thats nice huh. Now imagine people not being able to do so because they cant, like you, go invisible by pressing 1 button.

I really believe you're missing the issue here.

technohic wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

dotme wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

If you run certain classes and/or builds you're completely at the mercy of the skilllevel of the cloakspammer.

That's part of the game - Not every class can take out another class when solo. That's why group play with a combination of DPS, heals, tanks etc always works better in Cyrodiil. It could be, for example, that if you run with a nightblade in your group, you may have more luck killing them. Nightblades have piercing mark at their disposal. It works really well

I understand what you're trying to say but its not completely true. Player conditions (skill, level, cp), gearsets and such aside, any class can defeat another class in ESO with nightblades being the only exception.
If you can touch it, you can beat it but how are you supposed to kill something you can't touch? Im simplifying alot but u get the idea xD

I agree however with the idea of grouping up with players having versatile setups to cover different types of encounters ingame being a good idea. I mean who wouldnt lol

Piercing mark does not take nightblades out of cloak, it prevents them from turning invisible. Its a nice counter to cloakspammers indeed but didnt fit in my list which consists of abilities to use after cloak has already been activated.

I dont think many players have problems fighting a nighblade who doesnt (ab)use the cloaking mechanisme tbh. I for one dont no matter what class I play. Its when they take away your ability to return fire simply by continually pressing one button and you having no choice but to take it, thats where the problem starts.

So no one can be bothered to run detect pots, could I not be bothered to run anything other than ranged magblade and therefor not be able to hurt a DK or Warden with reflect?

I never stated nor suggested that. I run detect pots myself and as a Dpot user I say theyre close to useless against a cloakspammer but theyre the best thing at your disposal. You pop it and somewhat hope the spammer burns through his magicka and the window is still large enough for you to burst him in otherwise youre back to the same dance for another 30 seconds until your next pot is ready.

Uhh last time I checked crushing shock still does what its supposed to do. Apples and oranges bruh
Theres a difference between not being able to use the spammable of your chosing vs not being able to use anything at all. A huge difference.

Didgerion

Calboy wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

All these cloakspammers in denial ghegheghe

Sixty5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I think the heal mechanism needs to be removed (atleast in pvp areas) completely.

This mechanism has no place, especially in PVP.
It immensely decreases the gameplay needed (skillwise) to get anything done as a templar. And i understand why this is something good from devs standpoint.
But looking at it from an coherent viewpoint, it lessen the enjoyment overall - imo.

Now why is this? - Because, as it seems to me atm, it is just being used in the following manner: purge->heal->purge->heal etc etc.
Very few templars actually use it in a strategically way, excluding just spamming it in accordance with above.

It is just not satisfying to fight heal spamming templars, and the majority will keep playing in this way if they're allowed to do so. Take it from them for the sake of the overall health of the PVP community.

Can give us something like: grants minor protection, minor resolve and minor ward for 20 sec when activated.

Healing. Totally OP.

You can make the same argument for Ults with DKs or Shields on Sorcs.



Cloak is one of the few class defining skills that actually has counterplay

Expert Hunter/Inner Light - Highly inefficient. Even volatile armor is more effective in getting cloakspammers out of stealth than these pieces of crap
Detect pots - Yeah lets waste 45 seconds of pot uptime for 16 seconds of chasing down a shaded figure in a poopingposition while not being able to hit him with targeted abilities only to watch him disappear after those 16 seconds. Now youre standing there without a pot to protect you from that surprise attack (which you know is coming) followed by that incap (if the cloakspammer dabbled around long enough while u were playing tag)
Revealing Flare - lol

Steel tornado - Works nice but who runs steel tornado in PvP xD
Arrow Spray
Wall of Elements

DK's - Volatile Armor, Engulfing Flames/Noxious Breath
Templars - Jabs,
Sorcs - Streak but by the time u touch ground and turn around the spammer is in cloak again lol, Hurricane
Wardens - Impaling Shards (I guess)..srry stamwardens
NBs - *** nb's xD

So yeah the counters any1 has access to are pretty much useless against a decent cloakspammer and some classes don't even have other counters beyond those. If you run certain classes and/or builds you're completely at the mercy of the skilllevel of the cloakspammer.

You really think this isnt a problem or at least should be adressed in one way or the other?

Edit: forgot about the weapon abilities and flare

You also miss some with Templars, Unstable core (I spam that on NBs), blazing spear, solar barrage is possible if a NB is trying to sneak in for melee for some reason,

Sorcs have curse which a lot of NBs absolutely hate.

EDIT:

Caltrops
Volley
Impulse

Ah yeah, totally forgot about solar barrage

the rest dont take nbs out of cloak they prevent them from entering it..curse being bit of both
And those AOE abilities you mentioned are far from being viable counters. Maybe a sorc can find a way to slot caltrops using its overload bar but somehow I dont see many people running caltrops on their bars in open world situations. Same goes for the other two

Agree,
Keeping anything on your bar just to reveal NBs means crippling your build.
Also the invis-breaking pots - if you use that then you cripple your sustain.
NBs without cloak are as survivable as any other classes are out there - they have vigor, they have 2h heal ticks, they have rolldodge, they have impen armor. Breaking cloak does not mean that NB is totally defenseless and you can one click kill him.

its not crippling your build if it allows you to have a viable counter to 1 of 5 classes

IDK man, keeping a skill on my already tight bar just to counter NBs and have no use of it for all other 4 classes is called crippling!

Why NB class is forcing me to put something on my bar? No other class there requires me to put counters on my bar except NBs.
And even If I encounter a NB and use that skill to reveal him I'm still crippled as cloak-less NB is as survivable as my stam sorc is for example and I have to fight him with a crippled bar or with a crippled sustain (if I use a pot to revel him)

KrishakPanettier

My MAIN is NOT a Nightblade, but.... NO.

Didgerion

technohic wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

All these cloakspammers in denial ghegheghe

Sixty5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I think the heal mechanism needs to be removed (atleast in pvp areas) completely.

This mechanism has no place, especially in PVP.
It immensely decreases the gameplay needed (skillwise) to get anything done as a templar. And i understand why this is something good from devs standpoint.
But looking at it from an coherent viewpoint, it lessen the enjoyment overall - imo.

Now why is this? - Because, as it seems to me atm, it is just being used in the following manner: purge->heal->purge->heal etc etc.
Very few templars actually use it in a strategically way, excluding just spamming it in accordance with above.

It is just not satisfying to fight heal spamming templars, and the majority will keep playing in this way if they're allowed to do so. Take it from them for the sake of the overall health of the PVP community.

Can give us something like: grants minor protection, minor resolve and minor ward for 20 sec when activated.

Healing. Totally OP.

You can make the same argument for Ults with DKs or Shields on Sorcs.



Cloak is one of the few class defining skills that actually has counterplay

Expert Hunter/Inner Light - Highly inefficient. Even volatile armor is more effective in getting cloakspammers out of stealth than these pieces of crap
Detect pots - Yeah lets waste 45 seconds of pot uptime for 16 seconds of chasing down a shaded figure in a poopingposition while not being able to hit him with targeted abilities only to watch him disappear after those 16 seconds. Now youre standing there without a pot to protect you from that surprise attack (which you know is coming) followed by that incap (if the cloakspammer dabbled around long enough while u were playing tag)
Revealing Flare - lol

Steel tornado - Works nice but who runs steel tornado in PvP xD
Arrow Spray
Wall of Elements

DK's - Volatile Armor, Engulfing Flames/Noxious Breath
Templars - Jabs,
Sorcs - Streak but by the time u touch ground and turn around the spammer is in cloak again lol, Hurricane
Wardens - Impaling Shards (I guess)..srry stamwardens
NBs - *** nb's xD

So yeah the counters any1 has access to are pretty much useless against a decent cloakspammer and some classes don't even have other counters beyond those. If you run certain classes and/or builds you're completely at the mercy of the skilllevel of the cloakspammer.

You really think this isnt a problem or at least should be adressed in one way or the other?

Edit: forgot about the weapon abilities and flare

You also miss some with Templars, Unstable core (I spam that on NBs), blazing spear, solar barrage is possible if a NB is trying to sneak in for melee for some reason,

Sorcs have curse which a lot of NBs absolutely hate.

EDIT:

Caltrops
Volley
Impulse

Ah yeah, totally forgot about solar barrage

the rest dont take nbs out of cloak they prevent them from entering it..curse being bit of both
And those AOE abilities you mentioned are far from being viable counters. Maybe a sorc can find a way to slot caltrops using its overload bar but somehow I dont see many people running caltrops on their bars in open world situations. Same goes for the other two

Agree,
Keeping anything on your bar just to reveal NBs means crippling your build.
Also the invis-breaking pots - if you use that then you cripple your sustain.
NBs without cloak are as survivable as any other classes are out there - they have vigor, they have 2h heal ticks, they have rolldodge, they have impen armor. Breaking cloak does not mean that NB is totally defenseless and you can one click kill him.

You are talking entirely about stamNB.

All this boils down to is "I don't want to use the counters because it cripples my build" which is really choices you make just as anyone going full range chose not to equip anything to fight reflect spammers. You want something to automatically take care of something someone else is doing for you without sacrifice yourself.

Yes I refer stamNB, as I find that stamNBs are more unbalanced than magNBs. Their 2 skill insta-kill combo coupled with cloak is way over powered.

Putting a skill on my bar just to brake someone's cloak is crippling.
And even if I choose to fight only NBs with that build I'm still crippled.
As I've already mentioned above - even if you brake NBs cloak - you are still crippled! Cloak-less NBs are as survivable as you are except - now you have to fight him without a buff or execute or heal ... whatever skill you traded to put the reveal capability

JobooAGS

Take away cloak from nightblades and you will see nightblade population and even player population decrease

Didgerion

JobooAGS wrote: »

Take away cloak from nightblades and you will see nightblade population and even player population decrease

I've encountered NB builds that were not using cloak - and they are very strong as well - even cloak-less

JobooAGS

Didgerion wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

Take away cloak from nightblades and you will see nightblade population and even player population decrease

I've encountered NB builds that were not using cloak - and they are very strong as well - even cloak-less

I didnt say you wont find them, I said you will see alot less of them

dotme

Didgerion wrote: »

Yes I refer stamNB, as I find that stamNBs are more unbalanced than magNBs. Their 2 skill insta-kill combo coupled with cloak is way over powered.

Have you seen bomb-build NBs at work? Magic NBs have AOEs that stam builds can only dream of. I've seen magica builds wipe entire groups. A Stam NB is a single-target (no AOE) build. It's supposed to hurt, because they can realistically only focus on one target. It's an assasin class, striking with surgical precision and then slinking back into the darkness.

This isn't OP's first "remove this I don't like it" thread - last week, they wanted to completely remove snares...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390777/remove-snares-from-pvp-already

If ZOS acted on all these threads, I fear we'd all end up as homogeneous zombies with identical skills, throwing water balloons at each other.

JobooAGS

dotme wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Yes I refer stamNB, as I find that stamNBs are more unbalanced than magNBs. Their 2 skill insta-kill combo coupled with cloak is way over powered.

Have you seen bomb-build NBs at work? Magic NBs have AOEs that stam builds can only dream of. I've seen magica builds wipe entire groups. A Stam NB is a single-target (no AOE) build. It's supposed to hurt, because they can realistically only focus on one target. It's an assasin class, striking with surgical precision and then slinking back into the darkness.

This isn't OP's first "remove this I don't like it" thread - last week, they wanted to completely remove snares...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390777/remove-snares-from-pvp-already

If ZOS acted on all these threads, I fear we'd all end up as homogeneous zombies with identical skills, throwing water balloons at each other.

next thing we know, all skills will be removed, instead we can only light and heavy attack each other to death.

Gilvoth

i only play stealth class and stealth ways, rem0ve stealth and invisibility and i go bye bye

Didgerion

dotme wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Yes I refer stamNB, as I find that stamNBs are more unbalanced than magNBs. Their 2 skill insta-kill combo coupled with cloak is way over powered.

Have you seen bomb-build NBs at work? Magic NBs have AOEs that stam builds can only dream of. I've seen magica builds wipe entire groups. A Stam NB is a single-target (no AOE) build. It's supposed to hurt, because they can realistically only focus on one target. It's an assasin class, striking with surgical precision and then slinking back into the darkness.

This isn't OP's first "remove this I don't like it" thread - last week, they wanted to completely remove snares...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390777/remove-snares-from-pvp-already

If ZOS acted on all these threads, I fear we'd all end up as homogeneous zombies with identical skills, throwing water balloons at each other.

Yeah it is your surgical precision skill - except it is also your "oh sheet" button - and your "reset the fight button" - and your "now I'll Crit" button - and your "miss me" button and your "find me if you can" button .... should I continue?

Oh and looks like you don't need that surgical precision anymore.

I don't advocate to totally remove cloak - but to balance it - for example let it apply a major Maim to yourself for 5 seconds - so it is still a good defensive and escape skill but not an offensive skill anymore.
Or let it have the Mist Form mechanic with all the current buffs in place.

IDK man - but something has to be adjusted in cloak that's for sure.

Yeah I know I misspelled "sheet".

KrishakPanettier

Oooooh, waterballoons. Yes. And squirt swords and knives.

Didgerion

KrishakPanettier wrote: »

Oooooh, waterballoons. Yes. And squirt swords and knives.

Exactly! now imagine all those coming from an invisible kid!!! Scary!!!!

VaranisArano

Didgerion wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

All these cloakspammers in denial ghegheghe

Sixty5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I think the heal mechanism needs to be removed (atleast in pvp areas) completely.

This mechanism has no place, especially in PVP.
It immensely decreases the gameplay needed (skillwise) to get anything done as a templar. And i understand why this is something good from devs standpoint.
But looking at it from an coherent viewpoint, it lessen the enjoyment overall - imo.

Now why is this? - Because, as it seems to me atm, it is just being used in the following manner: purge->heal->purge->heal etc etc.
Very few templars actually use it in a strategically way, excluding just spamming it in accordance with above.

It is just not satisfying to fight heal spamming templars, and the majority will keep playing in this way if they're allowed to do so. Take it from them for the sake of the overall health of the PVP community.

Can give us something like: grants minor protection, minor resolve and minor ward for 20 sec when activated.

Healing. Totally OP.

You can make the same argument for Ults with DKs or Shields on Sorcs.



Cloak is one of the few class defining skills that actually has counterplay

Expert Hunter/Inner Light - Highly inefficient. Even volatile armor is more effective in getting cloakspammers out of stealth than these pieces of crap
Detect pots - Yeah lets waste 45 seconds of pot uptime for 16 seconds of chasing down a shaded figure in a poopingposition while not being able to hit him with targeted abilities only to watch him disappear after those 16 seconds. Now youre standing there without a pot to protect you from that surprise attack (which you know is coming) followed by that incap (if the cloakspammer dabbled around long enough while u were playing tag)
Revealing Flare - lol

Steel tornado - Works nice but who runs steel tornado in PvP xD
Arrow Spray
Wall of Elements

DK's - Volatile Armor, Engulfing Flames/Noxious Breath
Templars - Jabs,
Sorcs - Streak but by the time u touch ground and turn around the spammer is in cloak again lol, Hurricane
Wardens - Impaling Shards (I guess)..srry stamwardens
NBs - *** nb's xD

So yeah the counters any1 has access to are pretty much useless against a decent cloakspammer and some classes don't even have other counters beyond those. If you run certain classes and/or builds you're completely at the mercy of the skilllevel of the cloakspammer.

You really think this isnt a problem or at least should be adressed in one way or the other?

Edit: forgot about the weapon abilities and flare

You also miss some with Templars, Unstable core (I spam that on NBs), blazing spear, solar barrage is possible if a NB is trying to sneak in for melee for some reason,

Sorcs have curse which a lot of NBs absolutely hate.

EDIT:

Caltrops
Volley
Impulse

Ah yeah, totally forgot about solar barrage

the rest dont take nbs out of cloak they prevent them from entering it..curse being bit of both
And those AOE abilities you mentioned are far from being viable counters. Maybe a sorc can find a way to slot caltrops using its overload bar but somehow I dont see many people running caltrops on their bars in open world situations. Same goes for the other two

Agree,
Keeping anything on your bar just to reveal NBs means crippling your build.
Also the invis-breaking pots - if you use that then you cripple your sustain.
NBs without cloak are as survivable as any other classes are out there - they have vigor, they have 2h heal ticks, they have rolldodge, they have impen armor. Breaking cloak does not mean that NB is totally defenseless and you can one click kill him.

its not crippling your build if it allows you to have a viable counter to 1 of 5 classes

IDK man, keeping a skill on my already tight bar just to counter NBs and have no use of it for all other 4 classes is called crippling!

Why NB class is forcing me to put something on my bar? No other class there requires me to put counters on my bar except NBs.
And even If I encounter a NB and use that skill to reveal him I'm still crippled as cloak-less NB is as survivable as my stam sorc is for example and I have to fight him with a crippled bar or with a crippled sustain (if I use a pot to revel him)

You have 10 skill slots, yes? I think you can manage one skill without acting like that's crippling your build. Its called cramping your style, not crippling your build.

JobooAGS

Didgerion wrote: »

dotme wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Yes I refer stamNB, as I find that stamNBs are more unbalanced than magNBs. Their 2 skill insta-kill combo coupled with cloak is way over powered.

Have you seen bomb-build NBs at work? Magic NBs have AOEs that stam builds can only dream of. I've seen magica builds wipe entire groups. A Stam NB is a single-target (no AOE) build. It's supposed to hurt, because they can realistically only focus on one target. It's an assasin class, striking with surgical precision and then slinking back into the darkness.

This isn't OP's first "remove this I don't like it" thread - last week, they wanted to completely remove snares...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/390777/remove-snares-from-pvp-already

If ZOS acted on all these threads, I fear we'd all end up as homogeneous zombies with identical skills, throwing water balloons at each other.

Yeah it is your surgical precision skill - except it is also your "oh sheet" button - and your "reset the fight button" - and your "now I'll Crit" button - and your "miss me" button and your "find me if you can" button .... should I continue?

Oh and looks like you don't need that surgical precision anymore.

I don't advocate to totally remove cloak - but to balance it - for example let it apply a major Maim to yourself for 5 seconds - so it is still a good defensive and escape skill but not an offensive skill anymore.
Or let it have the Mist Form mechanic with all the current buffs in place.

IDK man - but something has to be adjusted in cloak that's for sure.

Yeah I know I misspelled "sheet".

if you have any dot on your target, it consumes the crit effectively making one of the morphs useless. Many times you use cloak and nothing happen effectively wasting magicka, so its less of an "oh sheet" button.

Didgerion

VaranisArano wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

All these cloakspammers in denial ghegheghe

Sixty5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I think the heal mechanism needs to be removed (atleast in pvp areas) completely.

This mechanism has no place, especially in PVP.
It immensely decreases the gameplay needed (skillwise) to get anything done as a templar. And i understand why this is something good from devs standpoint.
But looking at it from an coherent viewpoint, it lessen the enjoyment overall - imo.

Now why is this? - Because, as it seems to me atm, it is just being used in the following manner: purge->heal->purge->heal etc etc.
Very few templars actually use it in a strategically way, excluding just spamming it in accordance with above.

It is just not satisfying to fight heal spamming templars, and the majority will keep playing in this way if they're allowed to do so. Take it from them for the sake of the overall health of the PVP community.

Can give us something like: grants minor protection, minor resolve and minor ward for 20 sec when activated.

Healing. Totally OP.

You can make the same argument for Ults with DKs or Shields on Sorcs.



Cloak is one of the few class defining skills that actually has counterplay

Expert Hunter/Inner Light - Highly inefficient. Even volatile armor is more effective in getting cloakspammers out of stealth than these pieces of crap
Detect pots - Yeah lets waste 45 seconds of pot uptime for 16 seconds of chasing down a shaded figure in a poopingposition while not being able to hit him with targeted abilities only to watch him disappear after those 16 seconds. Now youre standing there without a pot to protect you from that surprise attack (which you know is coming) followed by that incap (if the cloakspammer dabbled around long enough while u were playing tag)
Revealing Flare - lol

Steel tornado - Works nice but who runs steel tornado in PvP xD
Arrow Spray
Wall of Elements

DK's - Volatile Armor, Engulfing Flames/Noxious Breath
Templars - Jabs,
Sorcs - Streak but by the time u touch ground and turn around the spammer is in cloak again lol, Hurricane
Wardens - Impaling Shards (I guess)..srry stamwardens
NBs - *** nb's xD

So yeah the counters any1 has access to are pretty much useless against a decent cloakspammer and some classes don't even have other counters beyond those. If you run certain classes and/or builds you're completely at the mercy of the skilllevel of the cloakspammer.

You really think this isnt a problem or at least should be adressed in one way or the other?

Edit: forgot about the weapon abilities and flare

You also miss some with Templars, Unstable core (I spam that on NBs), blazing spear, solar barrage is possible if a NB is trying to sneak in for melee for some reason,

Sorcs have curse which a lot of NBs absolutely hate.

EDIT:

Caltrops
Volley
Impulse

Ah yeah, totally forgot about solar barrage

the rest dont take nbs out of cloak they prevent them from entering it..curse being bit of both
And those AOE abilities you mentioned are far from being viable counters. Maybe a sorc can find a way to slot caltrops using its overload bar but somehow I dont see many people running caltrops on their bars in open world situations. Same goes for the other two

Agree,
Keeping anything on your bar just to reveal NBs means crippling your build.
Also the invis-breaking pots - if you use that then you cripple your sustain.
NBs without cloak are as survivable as any other classes are out there - they have vigor, they have 2h heal ticks, they have rolldodge, they have impen armor. Breaking cloak does not mean that NB is totally defenseless and you can one click kill him.

its not crippling your build if it allows you to have a viable counter to 1 of 5 classes

IDK man, keeping a skill on my already tight bar just to counter NBs and have no use of it for all other 4 classes is called crippling!

Why NB class is forcing me to put something on my bar? No other class there requires me to put counters on my bar except NBs.
And even If I encounter a NB and use that skill to reveal him I'm still crippled as cloak-less NB is as survivable as my stam sorc is for example and I have to fight him with a crippled bar or with a crippled sustain (if I use a pot to revel him)

You have 10 skill slots, yes? I think you can manage one skill without acting like that's crippling your build. Its called cramping your style, not crippling your build.

Here are the skills on my stam sorc.
Front bar:
Crit Charge, Rally, WB, Executioner, Rune cage,
Back bar:
Poison injection, Shuffle, Surge, Hurricane, Dark exchange

any suggestions what to remove?

Sixty5

montjie wrote: »

All these cloakspammers in denial ghegheghe

Sixty5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I think the heal mechanism needs to be removed (atleast in pvp areas) completely.

This mechanism has no place, especially in PVP.
It immensely decreases the gameplay needed (skillwise) to get anything done as a templar. And i understand why this is something good from devs standpoint.
But looking at it from an coherent viewpoint, it lessen the enjoyment overall - imo.

Now why is this? - Because, as it seems to me atm, it is just being used in the following manner: purge->heal->purge->heal etc etc.
Very few templars actually use it in a strategically way, excluding just spamming it in accordance with above.

It is just not satisfying to fight heal spamming templars, and the majority will keep playing in this way if they're allowed to do so. Take it from them for the sake of the overall health of the PVP community.

Can give us something like: grants minor protection, minor resolve and minor ward for 20 sec when activated.

Healing. Totally OP.

You can make the same argument for Ults with DKs or Shields on Sorcs.



Cloak is one of the few class defining skills that actually has counterplay

Expert Hunter/Inner Light - Highly inefficient. Even volatile armor is more effective in getting cloakspammers out of stealth than these pieces of crap
Detect pots - Yeah lets waste 45 seconds of pot uptime for 16 seconds of chasing down a shaded figure in a poopingposition while not being able to hit him with targeted abilities only to watch him disappear after those 16 seconds. Now youre standing there without a pot to protect you from that surprise attack (which you know is coming) followed by that incap (if the cloakspammer dabbled around long enough while u were playing tag)
Revealing Flare - lol

Steel tornado - Works nice but who runs steel tornado in PvP xD
Arrow Spray
Wall of Elements

DK's - Volatile Armor, Engulfing Flames/Noxious Breath
Templars - Jabs
Sorcs - Streak but by the time u touch ground and turn around the spammer is in cloak again lol, Hurricane
Wardens - Impaling Shards (I guess)..srry stamwardens
NBs - *** nb's xD

So yeah the counters any1 has access to are pretty much useless against a decent cloakspammer and some classes don't even have other counters beyond those. If you run certain classes and/or builds you're completely at the mercy of the skilllevel of the cloakspammer.

You really think this isnt a problem or at least should be adressed in one way or the other?

Edit: forgot about the weapon abilities and flare

Any ability that deals damage and is not targeted will pull a nightblade out of cloak.

Abilities like Hurricane and Ritual of Retribution straight up remove cloak as an ability, but they are some of the better examples.

If a Nightblade cloaks away, you know they are either running away, or resetting and getting ready to rengage, in either case, setting up your defenses lets you win.

It's a much nicer combat dynamic than fighting a good DK who will just turtle until they tag you with a Dizzying Swing, or a Stam Warden who just rotates defensive buffs until the Sub lands

VaranisArano

Didgerion wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

Calboy wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

montjie wrote: »

All these cloakspammers in denial ghegheghe

Sixty5 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I think the heal mechanism needs to be removed (atleast in pvp areas) completely.

This mechanism has no place, especially in PVP.
It immensely decreases the gameplay needed (skillwise) to get anything done as a templar. And i understand why this is something good from devs standpoint.
But looking at it from an coherent viewpoint, it lessen the enjoyment overall - imo.

Now why is this? - Because, as it seems to me atm, it is just being used in the following manner: purge->heal->purge->heal etc etc.
Very few templars actually use it in a strategically way, excluding just spamming it in accordance with above.

It is just not satisfying to fight heal spamming templars, and the majority will keep playing in this way if they're allowed to do so. Take it from them for the sake of the overall health of the PVP community.

Can give us something like: grants minor protection, minor resolve and minor ward for 20 sec when activated.

Healing. Totally OP.

You can make the same argument for Ults with DKs or Shields on Sorcs.



Cloak is one of the few class defining skills that actually has counterplay

Expert Hunter/Inner Light - Highly inefficient. Even volatile armor is more effective in getting cloakspammers out of stealth than these pieces of crap
Detect pots - Yeah lets waste 45 seconds of pot uptime for 16 seconds of chasing down a shaded figure in a poopingposition while not being able to hit him with targeted abilities only to watch him disappear after those 16 seconds. Now youre standing there without a pot to protect you from that surprise attack (which you know is coming) followed by that incap (if the cloakspammer dabbled around long enough while u were playing tag)
Revealing Flare - lol

Steel tornado - Works nice but who runs steel tornado in PvP xD
Arrow Spray
Wall of Elements

DK's - Volatile Armor, Engulfing Flames/Noxious Breath
Templars - Jabs,
Sorcs - Streak but by the time u touch ground and turn around the spammer is in cloak again lol, Hurricane
Wardens - Impaling Shards (I guess)..srry stamwardens
NBs - *** nb's xD

So yeah the counters any1 has access to are pretty much useless against a decent cloakspammer and some classes don't even have other counters beyond those. If you run certain classes and/or builds you're completely at the mercy of the skilllevel of the cloakspammer.

You really think this isnt a problem or at least should be adressed in one way or the other?

Edit: forgot about the weapon abilities and flare

You also miss some with Templars, Unstable core (I spam that on NBs), blazing spear, solar barrage is possible if a NB is trying to sneak in for melee for some reason,

Sorcs have curse which a lot of NBs absolutely hate.

EDIT:

Caltrops
Volley
Impulse

Ah yeah, totally forgot about solar barrage

the rest dont take nbs out of cloak they prevent them from entering it..curse being bit of both
And those AOE abilities you mentioned are far from being viable counters. Maybe a sorc can find a way to slot caltrops using its overload bar but somehow I dont see many people running caltrops on their bars in open world situations. Same goes for the other two

Agree,
Keeping anything on your bar just to reveal NBs means crippling your build.
Also the invis-breaking pots - if you use that then you cripple your sustain.
NBs without cloak are as survivable as any other classes are out there - they have vigor, they have 2h heal ticks, they have rolldodge, they have impen armor. Breaking cloak does not mean that NB is totally defenseless and you can one click kill him.

its not crippling your build if it allows you to have a viable counter to 1 of 5 classes

IDK man, keeping a skill on my already tight bar just to counter NBs and have no use of it for all other 4 classes is called crippling!

Why NB class is forcing me to put something on my bar? No other class there requires me to put counters on my bar except NBs.
And even If I encounter a NB and use that skill to reveal him I'm still crippled as cloak-less NB is as survivable as my stam sorc is for example and I have to fight him with a crippled bar or with a crippled sustain (if I use a pot to revel him)

You have 10 skill slots, yes? I think you can manage one skill without acting like that's crippling your build. Its called cramping your style, not crippling your build.

Here are the skills on my stam sorc.
Front bar:
Crit Charge, Rally, WB, Executioner, Rune cage,
Back bar:
Poison injection, Shuffle, Surge, Hurricane, Dark exchange

any suggestions what to remove?

Whichever one you think you can best sacrifice in order to run a skill to counter NBs, since that's the only counter you want to use.
I'm not being entirely facetious. In my experience, ESO PVP is more like a game of rock, paper, scissors than it is a game where every build can succeed in every situation. Either you adapt to meet specific situations, such as countering nightblades which might require you to give up some general utility, or you go with the build that's good in most situations but may not be good at ALL of the them. (I swear, I had this exact convo with MagNBs complaining about being countered by DK wings - either you adapt and use a counter or quit complaining when you haven't bothered to slot a counter.)

In other words, run a counter to nightblades (of which you've gotten several options mentioned in thread) or quit complaining that you struggle with nightblades when you refuse to use a counter.

Ragnaroek93

I agree on that Cloak needs a change. It's either useless or overperforming if countered. I won't argue that medium armor stamnb without Cloak is not viable currently, they need to get another defense mechanic in that case for sure (a defense mechanic which is healthier for the game).

I also think that Cloak is the reason why medium armor doesn't receive buffs: It would most likely buff stamblades the most while it's already better a bit better than other stamclasses.