Will you use Crystal Blast now that Frags has no CC?

Izaki · October 2017

No

Cliff Racer: undodgeable, instant cast, deals insanely high base damage

Frags: 30% proc chance to be instant cast, deals insanely high damage when instant cast, dodgeable and blockable.

Yep. Balanced.

DDuke · October 2017

Asardes wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So I just checked something:

Dark Flare (0,1s longer cast time, but doesn't matter) deals 20.362% more damage as per tooltip than Crystal Blast.

Dark Flare also grants Major Empower for the follow up Javelin (sorcs don't have similar good instant cast follow up from class skills atleast) and puts Major Defile on target & nearby enemies.

Crystal Blast deals AoE damage.

@ZOS_Wrobel is there a reason why Crystal Blast (Blast only, not the instant cast Frags!!!) can't atleast deal same base damage as Dark Flare? I think that would be a reasonable change.

What´s the cost difference between the two?

Base costs (to which all passives & set bonus modifiers apply):
Crystal Blast 4050 Magicka
Dark Flare 3240 Magicka

Actually the difference is slightly smaller due to class passives:
Crystal Blast: 4050 becomes in fact 3850 due to the Unholy Knowledge
Dark Flare: 3240 becomes 3110 due to Restoring Spirit

Yep, those apply to the base cost.

Base Cost-[Class Passives%+Armor Passives%+Seducer/Alteration%]

Base cost or cost after passives - doesn't make a huge difference in the end, but it does affect the numbers slightly when you start counting those other cost reductions.

Asardes · October 2017

No

DDuke wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So I just checked something:

Dark Flare (0,1s longer cast time, but doesn't matter) deals 20.362% more damage as per tooltip than Crystal Blast.

Dark Flare also grants Major Empower for the follow up Javelin (sorcs don't have similar good instant cast follow up from class skills atleast) and puts Major Defile on target & nearby enemies.

Crystal Blast deals AoE damage.

@ZOS_Wrobel is there a reason why Crystal Blast (Blast only, not the instant cast Frags!!!) can't atleast deal same base damage as Dark Flare? I think that would be a reasonable change.

What´s the cost difference between the two?

Base costs (to which all passives & set bonus modifiers apply):
Crystal Blast 4050 Magicka
Dark Flare 3240 Magicka

Actually the difference is slightly smaller due to class passives:
Crystal Blast: 4050 becomes in fact 3850 due to the Unholy Knowledge
Dark Flare: 3240 becomes 3110 due to Restoring Spirit

Yep, those apply to the base cost.

Base Cost-[Class Passives%+Armor Passives%+Seducer/Alteration%]

Base cost or cost after passives - doesn't make a huge difference in the end, but it does affect the numbers slightly when you start counting those other cost reductions.

If you look at the bigger picture it's not actually that imbalanced, since sorcerer skills are overall cheaper than templar's so for a whole skill combo the costs are closer still.

technohic · October 2017

No

I actually like that CC is no longer tied to frags. Would rather have the target stay open for better CC.

danno8 · October 2017

No

DDuke wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So I just checked something:

Dark Flare (0,1s longer cast time, but doesn't matter) deals 20.362% more damage as per tooltip than Crystal Blast.

Dark Flare also grants Major Empower for the follow up Javelin (sorcs don't have similar good instant cast follow up from class skills atleast) and puts Major Defile on target & nearby enemies.

Crystal Blast deals AoE damage.

@ZOS_Wrobel is there a reason why Crystal Blast (Blast only, not the instant cast Frags!!!) can't atleast deal same base damage as Dark Flare? I think that would be a reasonable change.

If you thought landing a hard casted Crystal whatever was tough, try landing a hard casted Dark Flare with it's huge arcing projectile.

Also, you are comparing Templar and Sorc in a bubble here. The only thing you are likely to accomplish is them moving the extra damage from frags to blast, or getting Dark Flare nerffed.

Also, close range Dark Flare+Jav isn't that easy to dodge (without cheat addons) btw - mostly because of the Jav being a very quick projectile.

And how easy will it be to dodge a CB + Rune Prison? Or block for that matter?

We could do this all day, comparing certain skills with others, but all that really matters is the overall effectiveness of a classes entire kit of tools compared to another class.

I would say that Sorc has a really good overall toolkit to be effective in PvP, probably more effective in most scenarios than Templar with the exception of dedicated healer, and certainly has an edge in PvE compared to Templar.

And I say this with the understanding that I am against the silly change to CF/CB.

DDuke · October 2017

danno8 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So I just checked something:

Dark Flare (0,1s longer cast time, but doesn't matter) deals 20.362% more damage as per tooltip than Crystal Blast.

Dark Flare also grants Major Empower for the follow up Javelin (sorcs don't have similar good instant cast follow up from class skills atleast) and puts Major Defile on target & nearby enemies.

Crystal Blast deals AoE damage.

@ZOS_Wrobel is there a reason why Crystal Blast (Blast only, not the instant cast Frags!!!) can't atleast deal same base damage as Dark Flare? I think that would be a reasonable change.

If you thought landing a hard casted Crystal whatever was tough, try landing a hard casted Dark Flare with it's huge arcing projectile.

Also, you are comparing Templar and Sorc in a bubble here. The only thing you are likely to accomplish is them moving the extra damage from frags to blast, or getting Dark Flare nerffed.

Also, close range Dark Flare+Jav isn't that easy to dodge (without cheat addons) btw - mostly because of the Jav being a very quick projectile.

And how easy will it be to dodge a CB + Rune Prison? Or block for that matter?

Impossible if executed right, but that combination also doesn't deal even half the damage Dark Flare+Jav deals. You basicly waste a GCD dealing zero damage when you decide to cast Rune Prison.

danno8 wrote: »

We could do this all day, comparing certain skills with others, but all that really matters is the overall effectiveness of a classes entire kit of tools compared to another class.

I'm sure we could, but Crystal Blast isn't part of any sorc's tool kit and that's the problem (just like Healing Ritual, Sun Shield are quite unutilized for magplars).

pieratsos · October 2017

No

technohic wrote: »

I actually like that CC is no longer tied to frags. Would rather have the target stay open for better CC.

What for? To spend another global cd in the already small window you have before you have to go back to shield stacking or for having to remove a necessary ability from ur already limited toolkit so u can slot a cc?

technohic · October 2017

No

pieratsos wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I actually like that CC is no longer tied to frags. Would rather have the target stay open for better CC.

What for? To spend another global cd in the already small window you have before you have to go back to shield stacking or for having to remove a necessary ability from ur already limited toolkit so u can slot a cc?

I am going to slot another CC anyway as a wasted GCD is nothing compared to waiting for the moment I want the CC and an instant frag is proced. If I hard cast for a stun, its the same as the GCD but yet I am also broadcasting a huge tell of what is coming (which BTW, is why the change to the other morph will be a non-starter) Then even with an instant frag, people tend to be good at dodging those just as easily. The extra GCD is going to be not worth mentioning as they are stunned for that second anyway at this point and now Im going to land the frag and not really worry about saving a proc quite as often.

Feanor · October 2017

No

It’s not a great idea to have a cast time skill in PvP. ZOS needs to address their issues obsession with those (see Templar for further reference) for good.

pieratsos · October 2017

No

technohic wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I actually like that CC is no longer tied to frags. Would rather have the target stay open for better CC.

What for? To spend another global cd in the already small window you have before you have to go back to shield stacking or for having to remove a necessary ability from ur already limited toolkit so u can slot a cc?

I am going to slot another CC anyway as a wasted GCD is nothing compared to waiting for the moment I want the CC and an instant frag is proced. If I hard cast for a stun, its the same as the GCD but yet I am also broadcasting a huge tell of what is coming (which BTW, is why the change to the other morph will be a non-starter) Then even with an instant frag, people tend to be good at dodging those just as easily. The extra GCD is going to be not worth mentioning as they are stunned for that second anyway at this point and now Im going to land the frag and not really worry about saving a proc quite as often.

If we are talking about 1v1 scenarios then its a whole different story. You can squeeze it in ur bar in these cases since frag cc wasnt potent to begin with in 1v1. But for solo open world that cc is very useful and a GCD is indeed very important. You have to keep ur shields up or you melt. Sometimes you have a very small window of 2-3 seconds for a meteor frag before you go back to shieldstacking. That extra GCD is going to matter. Same as the ability u will remove for an extra cc.

Sorcs already dropped surge for dark conversion. Its not like you have a flex spot. You are either removing mines, dark conversion, surge, harness or endless fury. Or you play with overload and you put surge and dark conversion on overload bar. All have major drawbacks.

Master destro would be nice to replace crushing shock with flame reach and get a cc without losing much but its still not strong enough.

They should have removed shieldstacking. Even without anything else to compensate. At least u'll be forced to drop something and everyone and can get off the "nerf sorc train".

scipionumatia · October 2017

No

simply unslot frags and partake in the awesome Dragon Knight Sorc class ability "Rune prison".

Veteran DK players can attest to the amazing success that is Fossilize "Rune prison"

"Ah I remember back in the good old days of dropping a meteor, fossilize then getting that crit rush to smite my Foe. Best thing about Fossilize Rune prison is it goes right through block, dodge roll, you name it! "
-Ulgamesh, Giant Slayer

SanTii.92 · October 2017

No

Proc chance for instant cast should be moved to the base ability, and cc to + extra single target dmge one morph, and the other aoe dmge.

But also, balance discussions asides, removing such a core part of sorc kit, which has been so for so long, for ni apparent reason is such a low blow from ZOS.

Elsonso · October 2017

No

Izaki wrote: »

Cliff Racer: undodgeable, instant cast, deals insanely high base damage

Frags: 30% proc chance to be instant cast, deals insanely high damage when instant cast, dodgeable and blockable.

Yep. Balanced.

Fixing this does not balance the game. All it does is make it so that all the classes are the same. Yeah, maybe some people run the warden sorcerer and some people run the nightblade sorcerer, but we are all doing the same things, just with different names and icons.

pieratsos · October 2017

No

scipionumatia wrote: »

simply unslot frags and partake in the awesome Dragon Knight Sorc class ability "Rune prison".

Got it. So now sorcs shouldnt be allowed to kill anything. The nerf sorcs movement is evolving.

Wreuntzylla · October 2017

danno8 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So I just checked something:

Dark Flare (0,1s longer cast time, but doesn't matter) deals 20.362% more damage as per tooltip than Crystal Blast.

Dark Flare also grants Major Empower for the follow up Javelin (sorcs don't have similar good instant cast follow up from class skills atleast) and puts Major Defile on target & nearby enemies.

Crystal Blast deals AoE damage.

@ZOS_Wrobel is there a reason why Crystal Blast (Blast only, not the instant cast Frags!!!) can't atleast deal same base damage as Dark Flare? I think that would be a reasonable change.

If you thought landing a hard casted Crystal whatever was tough, try landing a hard casted Dark Flare with it's huge arcing projectile.

Also, you are comparing Templar and Sorc in a bubble here. The only thing you are likely to accomplish is them moving the extra damage from frags to blast, or getting Dark Flare nerffed.

QFT. I wanted to love Dark Flare when I actively played a magplar, but even at close range that thing finds a way to travel 20m.

Apherius · October 2017

No

Never.

They should better give the CC back ( this or remove the 16%61% cost increase of rune prison ) and add proc on the other morph ...

clocksstoppe · October 2017

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

is predicated on the notion that people would actually use Blast now

Uhh, no it's not. Maybe you should learn to read. He literally said frags is too strong and needed a nerf. That's why the stun got removed. The part about crystal blast is only relevant to noobs, you shouldn't take it as his literal argument for nerfing frag. Everyone here knows people will still use frags even after the nerf. That's the entire point of the change, to make it less strong while still being used.

HoloYoitsu · October 2017

No

clocksstoppe wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

is predicated on the notion that people would actually use Blast now

Uhh, no it's not. Maybe you should learn to read. He literally said frags is too strong and needed a nerf. That's why the stun got removed. The part about crystal blast is only relevant to noobs, you shouldn't take it as his literal argument for nerfing frag. Everyone here knows people will still use frags even after the nerf. That's the entire point of the change, to make it less strong while still being used.

And perhaps you should pursue my post again and read in between the lines as you do for Wrobel's. But thank you for agreeing with me that Wrobel's proffered reason that this change somehow offers any viable choice in morphs is simply wrong.

I would hope I needn't debate with you over whether Frags was somehow "overloaded".

ak_pvp · October 2017

No

Frags was not overloaded in anyway. (Thats their ultimate ;D)

Its a telegraphed projectile thats dodge/block/reflectable. Deals decent damage on a proc and is cute in a combo. Sorcs burst is perfectly balanced, hell maybe a little lackluster since it has to be set up quite a bit and is ST when vs warden AOE curse and homing pidgeon of a frags.

They should undo the 10% nerf which affected nothing and re add the stun.

Hell, even my DK burst might be stronger, though costly. (Prebuff, Talons. inhale, whip, power whip+skoria proc) Melted a 660cp in a few sec today lmao.

DCanadianBacon · October 2017

No

Nope. I'll just slot Rune Prison instead for my stunning needs. And if they revert that change to Rune Prison, I'll just use Streak. And if they somehow think that's still too many Stun Abilities on a Sorc and they take that away too, then I'll use Destructive Clench on a Lightning staff.

I'll never slot a stun ability that has a 1+ second channel time that can be interrupted.

Funny thing is, I'll still slot the neutered Crystal Frags. It's the only thing that can be called a spammable on a Mag Sorc. (Sorry, Endless Fury doesn't count).

Izaki · October 2017

No

technohic wrote: »

I actually like that CC is no longer tied to frags. Would rather have the target stay open for better CC.

^ Yeah same here, I'm gonna spam the crap out of Rune Prison next patch right before that Shooting Star.

TipsyDrow · October 2017

No

Garbage skill is still a garbage skill no matter how much you nerf the good morph.

Derra · October 2017

No

Izaki wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I actually like that CC is no longer tied to frags. Would rather have the target stay open for better CC.

^ Yeah same here, I'm gonna spam the crap out of Rune Prison next patch right before that Shooting Star.

Still at the same time it goes down the route of further reducing skillchoices for sorc - not that there were many to begin with - by introducing new "mandatory" skills.

Not a good thing.

Biro123 · October 2017

No

Derra wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I actually like that CC is no longer tied to frags. Would rather have the target stay open for better CC.

^ Yeah same here, I'm gonna spam the crap out of Rune Prison next patch right before that Shooting Star.

Still at the same time it goes down the route of further reducing skillchoices for sorc - not that there were many to begin with - by introducing new "mandatory" skills.

Not a good thing.

/agree. For what I tend to run, the only way I'm gonna be able to fit this in is either by dropping inner light (not keen) or on overload bar on an overload build.

My standard toolkit is usually broken down into:
2 defence skills
2 mobility skills
2 heal skills
1 buff
3 offence.

Or for pets, losing a heal and a mobility to fit them in.

Either way, the only way I can see to fit in rune-cage is to drop inner-light, which I really don't like the sound of, since as well as the very nice stat-boost, I also use it to empower and to hunt stealthers..

Hutch679 · October 2017

No

What a joke lmao. Yeahhh I bet someone would use Crystal blast now *sarcasm*. How many people have accidentally started to hard cast a frag then cancelled it lol

Elsonso · October 2017

No

Hutch679 wrote: »

What a joke lmao. Yeahhh I bet someone would use Crystal blast now *sarcasm*. How many people have accidentally started to hard cast a frag then cancelled it lol

Happens all the time when I am right at the edge of the up time. The glowing hands persist briefly after the ability no longer instant casts. If I am not checking the timer first, it gets me.

Xvorg · October 2017

Yes

My only sorc relies too much on frags... the other option is go stamsorc but in a dunmer it means wasting 3 passives

Izaki · October 2017

No

Derra wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I actually like that CC is no longer tied to frags. Would rather have the target stay open for better CC.

^ Yeah same here, I'm gonna spam the crap out of Rune Prison next patch right before that Shooting Star.

Still at the same time it goes down the route of further reducing skillchoices for sorc - not that there were many to begin with - by introducing new "mandatory" skills.

Not a good thing.

Not a good thing at all, I'm still very against this change and especially the reasoning behind it. Skill Y sucks? We'll we'll nerf skill X so that Y seems more appealing.

I'm just feeling like the Sorc burst will be slightly more deadly now, so I'm happy that its not just a flatout nerf...

Izaki · October 2017

No

Biro123 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

technohic wrote: »

I actually like that CC is no longer tied to frags. Would rather have the target stay open for better CC.

^ Yeah same here, I'm gonna spam the crap out of Rune Prison next patch right before that Shooting Star.

Still at the same time it goes down the route of further reducing skillchoices for sorc - not that there were many to begin with - by introducing new "mandatory" skills.

Not a good thing.

/agree. For what I tend to run, the only way I'm gonna be able to fit this in is either by dropping inner light (not keen) or on overload bar on an overload build.

My standard toolkit is usually broken down into:
2 defence skills
2 mobility skills
2 heal skills
1 buff
3 offence.

Or for pets, losing a heal and a mobility to fit them in.

Either way, the only way I can see to fit in rune-cage is to drop inner-light, which I really don't like the sound of, since as well as the very nice stat-boost, I also use it to empower and to hunt stealthers..

On an Overload build you should use Blast. Hard Cast + Overload light attack + Endless Fury = Dead.

Since I play with Dark Conversion and without Mines, I guess I'm going to have to drop Degeneration for Rune Prison and then use Spell Power pots. Kind of annoying since Corn Flower and Lady's Smock are expensive as hell and I'd rather sell them than use them for PvP (I don't PvE on magicka builds anyway).

DoonerSeraph · October 2017

I can even see it now...

In 2018:
We are removing the proc from Crystal Fragments and adding it to Crystal Blast.

In 2019:
We are turning Crystal Fragments into a AoE skill and Crystal Blast into a single target skill.

And then people will finally slot Crystal Blast.