Subterranean Assault Overperforming

zParallaxz

Point blank, if u constantly lose to that combo u probably have a low skill level. At the end of the day if you lose to a player or class don’t say “wtf that *** is op, something is broken about that class! “ , instead learn how to counter the skill or outplay it. Pretty soon when you follow that particular play style thats what makes you a top tier player and eventually a master of your class.

Dredlord

Obligatory disclaimer. I dont play warden, I'm not trolling you. I have been killed by this combo.

Are you familiar with strafe?

zParallaxz

I’m guessing either your not cp cap and don’t know properly do combat in the game, or a stam char with low crit resis and without a vigor up while in excute range, or lastly a mag char who missed applying a shield and has little to no crit resis. Any competent player who can consistently block incaps, block frags, block leaps, and block spectral bows can easily see that combo and block it. SA has plenty counter play, ZOS LOCK THIS THREAD AS L2P issue.

Gaggin

Trees got double nerfed, 33percent less healing in addition to the ult increase, doesn't hurt magden that much since they can rock resto anyway but sure hurts stam.

Stampede and shalk can be hard to land sometimes if people are staying close to you, and it takes 3 sec to activate, so if your initial burst doesn't kill them(or if... check this out... someone gapcloses on you!) you're locked in a toe-to-toe fight, which is kinda tough against classes that can cc u for sure while you have to hope they don't block ur db or dodge dizzying swing.

killimandrosb16_ESO

at a certain point I realized the OP actually wants the wardens to poop pink unicorn candy which magically turns into AP when he eats them. And lets not forget, they must stand still or its OP

Jawasa

@killimandrosb16_ESO Stamwarden is the easiest pvp spec in the game atm lol. Extremly forgiving class. Ofc I started to main it myself for bg's.

@zParallaxz SA is unblockable if u block you will atelast eat the SA.

Thogard

The warden crew is out in force today!

Lexxypwns

Thogard wrote: »

The warden crew is out in force today!

@Thogard get with the program, stamden is trash

Mihael

Waffennacht wrote: »

Mihael wrote: »

Lol some people are so delusional and refuse to see the truth,

Stam warden has so many buffs it has a class Stam heal that allows you to use forward momentum it has Major heroism, it has the cheapest healing ult, it has major brutality that also give stam back major expedition and more, and on top of all this they give them the ability to have one of the best burst combos in game and people still think it's not over performing loool

Also I saw a few people comparing mag dk burst to stam warden burst and you just need to get out of this thread lol

Most people will say not to run Bull + FM fyi.

A spot heal is not specific to warden

You list Trees, Sub Assault, Bull, Shimmering, Bird O Prey, Soothing Spores and only leave out Dive. That's literally every ability even available to Warden.

1 spot heal (lol BoL but ok), 1 AoE (it is the only way a Warden can kill fyi), buffs (that guess what, most classes have access to with better effects added - i.e. Hurricane, or Assassin's Will) a range specific shield (wouldn't say it's OP by any means) and a newly nerfed Trees that does less and costs more.

Sub Assault and Warden abilities make up only 1/3rd of the combo at best. Similar (maybe not via LoS, so I more agree with OP about that) burst results can happen from any Stam class.

The only part I can see is the LoS part, which I believe was OP's original statement

We are talking about stam classes, so please tell me what other class has a spamable heal,
You don't think a ranged shield that outperforms dk wings and gives Major heroism which no other class has is not op??

Thogard

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The warden crew is out in force today!

@Thogard get with the program, stamden is trash

Yeah all those level 10 stamdens must’ve hit level 50 last night lol.

Mine is still only 30 though so I’m gonna keep thinking that sub assault’s dmg burst should be on the GCD

Waffennacht

Thogard wrote: »

The warden crew is out in force today!

They're a bunch of bandwagoners.

Edit: I hate you all. I was a Warden before it was cool

wheem_ESO

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

I agree. nobody should get 1 shotted- and nobody is.

Are you trying to argue semantics? Claiming that since it's not literally dying to one single ability it shouldn't be called a "1-shot?" When we're referring to someone being "1-shotted," it's simply shorthand for dying in basically 1 global cooldown. Sometimes you may not be literally 1-shot by even that definition, but are set so far back that you might as well be. It's not like you get some long breather of them hitting like a wimp if their burst fails, as has been the case with certain classes in some other games.

For those of you who are continually insisting that dodging Stam Warden burst is so easy, how about recording some videos of your amazing gameplay for the rest of us plebs to marvel at and learn from? I've done a lot of BGs (and when I say a lot, I mean a LOT), and every competent Stam Warden that I've seen can burst even other competent players down really quickly, and are borderline impossible for most Magicka setups to kill.

Berenhir

My sorc can shield your stuff and as of lately I employed a pocket heal bot so it is not OP because you ain't killing me.

Thogard

wheem_ESO wrote: »

BroanBeast1215 wrote: »

I agree. nobody should get 1 shotted- and nobody is.

Are you trying to argue semantics? Claiming that since it's not literally dying to one single ability it shouldn't be called a "1-shot?" When we're referring to someone being "1-shotted," it's simply shorthand for dying in basically 1 global cooldown. Sometimes you may not be literally 1-shot by even that definition, but are set so far back that you might as well be. It's not like you get some long breather of them hitting like a wimp if their burst fails, as has been the case with certain classes in some other games.

For those of you who are continually insisting that dodging Stam Warden burst is so easy, how about recording some videos of your amazing gameplay for the rest of us plebs to marvel at and learn from? I've done a lot of BGs (and when I say a lot, I mean a LOT), and every competent Stam Warden that I've seen can burst even other competent players down really quickly, and are borderline impossible for most Magicka setups to kill.

I doubt that'll happen.... but it would be nice. I look forward to seeing players dodgerolling every crit rush that heads their way, only to be caught in the stun by the DBoS and still eat the full shalks dmg and get reverse sliced.

I'm not the best, but I consider myself a very strong player. There are plenty of videos of me playing if you look in the BG forums. I make no effort to hide my skill level - I'm quite proud of it.

There aren't too many people whose opinions on things like this I take seriously. So far every poster in this thread that I look up to has agreed with the general consensus. On the other hand, I don't know any of the players who have come out against it... but then again, I'm on PC and it seems that there's a power gap between wardens on PC (where lining up shalks is easy) and on console (where it's hard) so that might explain some of the divergence.

Feanor

@Thogard

I have been leveling up my stamWarden recently (still in his 30s though) and what you describe is painfully obvious even in PvE. Warden's class DPS skills are so limited that it's practically land the burst or don't kill anything at all. The best solution in my opinion would be to change the plethora of support skills into more damage oriented ones and then adjust shalks and cliff racer accordingly. Could even make them dodgeable then. The real issue is that ZOS never intended Warden to be a damage dealing class. I'm not hopeful this will change.

killimandrosb16_ESO

Jawasa wrote: »

@killimandrosb16_ESO Stamwarden is the easiest pvp spec in the game atm lol. Extremly forgiving class. Ofc I started to main it myself for bg's.

@zParallaxz SA is unblockable if u block you will atelast eat the SA.

if you mean easiest by having ony 1 strong dps skill to pick from so its easy to pick, ok. I wish you good luck in bg's with it, I suspect you will be disappointed with your high expectations. Maybe you have been watching some of the videos by people doing more or less the same with every other class in game?

I consider myself a little below par pvp player. I have several years of experience with pvp 1v1 or 1vx, and that routine helps me analyzing what I did wrong, what my class can do/not. My problem with any class I pick from, is in a smallscale situation I tend to chose the wrong skills. With my magsorc, I typically place the curse before second tick, I chose shard before its instant cast, on my stamknight I miss my dizzying swing, I pop shields far too often and find myself drained, on my stamblade I am too late with second attack after ambush, I dodge too often and on my warden I probably run the worst weapon combo ever, (sword/sword+2h) because I cant afford to get myself another golden weapon set (sword+board). I find landing that shalk to be tricky in a 1v1 situation. Maybe im so much worse than anyone else, but when reading combat logs, it seems my shalk quite often is dodged, or the attack does far less damage than what one would imagine reading some of the comments. Ive never ever managed to one shot anyone with that 2hrush plus shalk combo, even though I have managed to pull it off. The worst situation I can remember, was fighting a HA magknight who litterally just ate it a couple of times and then whipped my sorry ass quite good. Where I can magae to get my stamden to perform in a way I am happy, is within a larger group. It has good mobility and when the *** hits the fan, I can manage a retreat much easier than on my sorc or my knight.
I think the developers when making this archetype nailed it very well. It is not the burstclass as sorc or NB is, but has bettermobility than sorc and can to a certain degree last longer than a NB, so isnt too dependant on the burst. It has in my opinion better group abilities in pvp than single target abilities, heals and supportive area abilities that is.

Ultimately eso pvp is a LOT about gear, but still, someone behind the toon must manage that gear, at least to a certain degree. I see people wearing 7 legion not doing great at all on their knight, and I see semi gods wearing the same gear. If all players were stripped of gear and abilities, and only had one basic attack, I believe the same people would outperform the others, which is in my opinion is good, even though I dont consider myself in that group. Yes there are balances to be made, yes there are builda and gear to be tweaked, but I dont know if changing one of 2 dps skills within one class that is good tuned is the way to go. If I want to go into the lakes doing damage only, Id still pick my sorc, without any doubts.

Laquey

Waffennacht wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The warden crew is out in force today!

They're a bunch of bandwagoners.

Edit: I hate you all. I was a Warden before it was cool

I've been playing Stam Warden since it's release so I'm not sure if I'm a bandwagoner or not.

Re the OP Warden is all about burst, it's all it has. It doesn't have an unblockable CC it doesn't really have escape mechanics what it does have is good heals with the best in the game burst. If you take that away from warden you will need to give it more CC options or escape mechanics.

To add to the hilarity I've been running a full bunter bear build double loaded ultimate to check out the new bear and it's mega hilarious. There is absolutely nothing like catching a non blocker in the open with:

Direct bear to attack
Shalk + bird + shield charge to
Light attack Bear ult.

Well that is until lag stops your bear from doing anything but hey, details details.

I've got about 30K on my bear ult with my weapon proc and bust buffs up, it hits like an express train ...

Lord-Otto

Waffennacht wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

The warden crew is out in force today!

They're a bunch of bandwagoners.

Edit: I hate you all. I was a Warden before it was cool

It's still not cool, though, never was...
xP

Waffennacht

@Laquey something a little like this:
(not 30k lmao, but I am working on the build )

https://youtu.be/yWazqs9W1jw

Laquey

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Laquey something a little like this:
(not 30k lmao, but I am working on the build )

https://youtu.be/yWazqs9W1jw

lol definately differernt builds but yeah similar idea. With 30K tooltip they don't even have to be anywhere near execute range to die from it and under 25% is like 30K+ hits ...

Skinzz

Sub assault hits harder than dawnbreaker 75% of the time based on my death recaps.

Sixty5

I'd kinda like to see Beetles have their damage halved but proc twice.

Gives wardens sustained pressure and better resource management while cutting down the massive burst and not hurting them in pve where they are already weak.

Thogard

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to see Beetles have their damage halved but proc twice.

Gives wardens sustained pressure and better resource management while cutting down the massive burst and not hurting them in pve where they are already weak.

Or give it the Viper treatment. Id even be OK with an increase in dmg to make the PvE'ers happy.

Sixty5

Thogard wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to see Beetles have their damage halved but proc twice.

Gives wardens sustained pressure and better resource management while cutting down the massive burst and not hurting them in pve where they are already weak.

Or give it the Viper treatment. Id even be OK with an increase in dmg to make the PvE'ers happy.

Could make it deal part of its damage up front and the rest as a DOT over 5 seconds or so.

That would make it fit in better with a PVE rotation, as well as cut down the burst and spammability in PVP, while still keeping the original idea of the skill.
You could actually give the skill a decent damage buff then as well, to really satisfy the PVE crowd

SanTii.92

Sixty5 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to see Beetles have their damage halved but proc twice.

Gives wardens sustained pressure and better resource management while cutting down the massive burst and not hurting them in pve where they are already weak.

Or give it the Viper treatment. Id even be OK with an increase in dmg to make the PvE'ers happy.

Could make it deal part of its damage up front and the rest as a DOT over 5 seconds or so.

That would make it fit in better with a PVE rotation, as well as cut down the burst and spammability in PVP, while still keeping the original idea of the skill.
You could actually give the skill a decent damage buff then as well, to really satisfy the PVE crowd

I'd be fine with something like that, but as said before nerfing burst they got to address other severely lacking parts of the kit, mainly the completely unreliable Cc and predictable offensive patterns. Every warden is forced to play around the Shalk because it's all that really is, so got to be careful here.

Minno

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

Deep Fissure is a CC is why.

There's too much stuff that's blockable in the game already which is why there's so many of these perma block magplar and dk's running around.

But.. like... game mechanics... Should follow some semblance of order...

It does. Sub Assault is an attack that has a timer before the damage like Haunting Curse and Power of the Light.

Correct, but those attacks should do a fraction on the DMG to compensate for more consistent DMG output. Like Templars, purfying light has to have a DMG soaked up to get your unblocked burst and because of a lack of a spamable curse is high DMG.

Sub Assault is only a time delay but they have an undodgeable spamable bird therefore dmg on sub Assault should be nerfed it an additional condition applied.

SanTii.92

Minno wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

Deep Fissure is a CC is why.

There's too much stuff that's blockable in the game already which is why there's so many of these perma block magplar and dk's running around.

But.. like... game mechanics... Should follow some semblance of order...

It does. Sub Assault is an attack that has a timer before the damage like Haunting Curse and Power of the Light.

Correct, but those attacks should do a fraction on the DMG to compensate for more consistent DMG output. Like Templars, purfying light has to have a DMG soaked up to get your unblocked burst and because of a lack of a spamable curse is high DMG.

Sub Assault is only a time delay but they have an undodgeable spamable bird therefore dmg on sub Assault should be nerfed it an additional condition applied.

The additional condition compared to those two is that its easily dodged.

Lexxypwns

Thogard wrote: »

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to see Beetles have their damage halved but proc twice.

Gives wardens sustained pressure and better resource management while cutting down the massive burst and not hurting them in pve where they are already weak.

Or give it the Viper treatment. Id even be OK with an increase in dmg to make the PvE'ers happy.

Sixty5 wrote: »

I'd kinda like to see Beetles have their damage halved but proc twice.

Gives wardens sustained pressure and better resource management while cutting down the massive burst and not hurting them in pve where they are already weak.

Sure, let's make curse, leap, wrecking blow, and crystal drags all DoTs instead of burst, then nobody has to die

Maulkin

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

Deep Fissure is a CC is why.

There's too much stuff that's blockable in the game already which is why there's so many of these perma block magplar and dk's running around.

But.. like... game mechanics... Should follow some semblance of order...

It does. Sub Assault is an attack that has a timer before the damage like Haunting Curse and Power of the Light.

Correct, but those attacks should do a fraction on the DMG to compensate for more consistent DMG output. Like Templars, purfying light has to have a DMG soaked up to get your unblocked burst and because of a lack of a spamable curse is high DMG.

Sub Assault is only a time delay but they have an undodgeable spamable bird therefore dmg on sub Assault should be nerfed it an additional condition applied.

The additional condition compared to those two is that its easily dodged.

You mean avoided? Because it's not dodgeable

SanTii.92

Maulkin wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

Deep Fissure is a CC is why.

There's too much stuff that's blockable in the game already which is why there's so many of these perma block magplar and dk's running around.

But.. like... game mechanics... Should follow some semblance of order...

It does. Sub Assault is an attack that has a timer before the damage like Haunting Curse and Power of the Light.

Correct, but those attacks should do a fraction on the DMG to compensate for more consistent DMG output. Like Templars, purfying light has to have a DMG soaked up to get your unblocked burst and because of a lack of a spamable curse is high DMG.

Sub Assault is only a time delay but they have an undodgeable spamable bird therefore dmg on sub Assault should be nerfed it an additional condition applied.

The additional condition compared to those two is that its easily dodged.

You mean avoided? Because it's not dodgeable

As in stepping aside yes, avoided, dodged.