Subterranean Assault Overperforming

Waffennacht

SoB I just got word from a reliable source that it blockable...

I'm personally gonna see if I can test this and report back...

Ugh, I use the ability, but never paid enough attention

Sanctum74

The problem is not the skill, it's skilled players and no matter how many nerfs they will always find a way to have an edge. All classes have a deadly burst combo and it usually takes skill to pull it off effectively.

To get that combo it takes good timing and the use of an ult. If they can pull it off then great, be better prepared next time.

Too many people just build for damage and do not keep any buffs, debuffs, or hot's up so they put out great damage, but die easily. If you make a well rounded build and keep your buff rotation up then you can easily survive one of these attacks and then go on the offensive.

The next biggest factor is skill and that takes time and with the warden being new people have to get used to what it's like to fight against one. No matter what class you are fighting though if your gonna follow them behind a rock then you should expect they may have a gift waiting for you.

LegacyDM

I agree with op. Subterranean assault is over performing. 2 days ago I got into a match against kodi. Somehow he hit me with subterrarian through los. Next thing I know I'm dead. Reviewed combat log and he hit me with a crit dizzying swing, crit sa, and a crit dawn breaker all in 1 sec for 24k. Somehow he was able to land a dizzying swing despite me moving through him being on top of him, and rotating around him at high nb speeds. You can say l2p but I'm not that squishie with all impen and properly allocated defensive cps and around 23k health. I think I might have had my healing ward up too. Regardless, No class should be bursting for 24k in 1 sec in pvp with an unblockable skill that goes through los. I'm also magicka so even if I blocked it wouldn't help. I have to rely on healing ward.

Thogard

Sanctum74 wrote: »

The problem is not the skill, it's skilled players and no matter how many nerfs they will always find a way to have an edge. All classes have a deadly burst combo and it usually takes skill to pull it off effectively.

To get that combo it takes good timing and the use of an ult. If they can pull it off then great, be better prepared next time.

Too many people just build for damage and do not keep any buffs, debuffs, or hot's up so they put out great damage, but die easily. If you make a well rounded build and keep your buff rotation up then you can easily survive one of these attacks and then go on the offensive.

The next biggest factor is skill and that takes time and with the warden being new people have to get used to what it's like to fight against one. No matter what class you are fighting though if your gonna follow them behind a rock then you should expect they may have a gift waiting for you.

The “deadly burst combos” from other classes both do less damage and have easier counters. The issue here is the lack of counter play combined with the frequency of the burst.

Furthermore, warden is the only class that doesn’t have the strongest part of their deadly burst combo count as part of the GCD (although sorc is pretty close, c Frags still out damages curse, and c Frags is getting nerfed)

paulsimonps

Subterranean Assault can be Blocked, Dodged and Mitigated. No counters you say? It has most of the possible counters listed right there, the only thing missing as far as I know is that it can't be interrupted or Negated, obviously the Deep Fissure morph can be cause its magicka.

If used right it can be lined up with other attacks, yes, but its easy to see the animation around it and predict when its going to hit. I've never had a problem against this attack, either morphs. There is plenty of things you can do to counter it. Sometimes something as simple as strafing around your opponent can make it miss.

I feel bad for anyone that looks at the Warden and say that this is the one true danger about them.

Thogard

paulsimonps wrote: »

Subterranean Assault can be Blocked, Dodged and Mitigated. No counters you say? It has most of the possible counters listed right there, the only thing missing as far as I know is that it can't be interrupted or Negated, obviously the Deep Fissure morph can be cause its magicka.

If used right it can be lined up with other attacks, yes, but its easy to see the animation around it and predict when its going to hit. I've never had a problem against this attack, either morphs. There is plenty of things you can do to counter it. Sometimes something as simple as strafing around your opponent can make it miss.

I feel bad for anyone that looks at the Warden and say that this is the one true danger about them.

Subterranean assault cannot be blocked, and dawnbreaker cannot be dodged. You shouldn't tell people that they need to "learn to play" when you don't even understand the basic mechanics of the skill you're talking about. It's just not appropriate and can confuse people who do not know better.

Lexxypwns

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Thogard yeah, it being unblockable changes a lot, you're right that blocking and roll dodge (esp combined with anything undodgeable lol) is too much. It definitely should be blockable, I mean imo it should act exactly like Dawn breaker - I know curse was specifically made unblockable - not mechanics logic but a ZoS "balancing" decision.

And just like flies I dunno if it's a bug or intended to go against the general functionality of ability mechanics.

It should be blockable

I know for sure it's not blockable, the only counter is to kite it. Even the magika version is in blockable, except the cc. Block is an adequate defense against this combo but only if the stamden isn't running corrupting. If you're heal debuffed you won't recover before you eat another Sub Assault and melt so you have to try to kite it. The problem with kiting is that when paired with gapclosers or chokes you can make it impossible to kite.

Stamden just has too much burst, but if you make sub assault blockable then it's got no answer to block builds. Mine will be ready by the weekend

paulsimonps

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Thogard yeah, it being unblockable changes a lot, you're right that blocking and roll dodge (esp combined with anything undodgeable lol) is too much. It definitely should be blockable, I mean imo it should act exactly like Dawn breaker - I know curse was specifically made unblockable - not mechanics logic but a ZoS "balancing" decision.

And just like flies I dunno if it's a bug or intended to go against the general functionality of ability mechanics.

It should be blockable

I know for sure it's not blockable, the only counter is to kite it. Even the magika version is in blockable, except the cc

Wait so that is why I thought wrong? CC is blockable but the damage is not? Makes so sense at all.... I face far more magicka wardens then stamina wardens, stamina wardens have never been a problem for me. So CC being blockable is what I based my claim on but.... CC is blockable but damage mitigation does not apply? I can agree on that being changed, cause that makes NO sense. If the CC was unblockable too then that would have been a different thing, but its not.

Waffennacht

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

Maulkin

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Deep Fissure definitely IS BLOCKABLE and Sub Assault is NOT BLOCKABLE

da heck

Nothing can surprise me with ZOS any more.

Waffennacht

Maulkin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Deep Fissure definitely IS BLOCKABLE and Sub Assault is NOT BLOCKABLE

da heck

Nothing can surprise me with ZOS any more.

Just edited it, it's damage is unblockable but will still trigger your Opponent's things that requires a block

So like that set that returns damage when you block bounces damage at deep fissure, but not sub assault

The asterisk on the deep Fissure threw me - it's the CC that gets "blocked" and it triggers things - which is interesting but makes little sense unless wardens aren't supposed to be countered lol

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

makes little sense unless wardens aren't supposed to be countered lol

And there it is...

Twohothardware

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

It's obvious why they made the CC portion blockable but the damage not.

Is Haunting Curse blockable? Is Power of the Light blockable? Why should Subterranean Assault which is also a timed activation and requires being lined up with the target be blockable?

The more abilities they make in this game that can be easily blocked the more perma blocking Magplar and DK builds are going to take over.

Waffennacht

.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

Deep Fissure is a CC is why.

There's too much stuff that's blockable in the game already which is why there's so many of these perma block magplar and dk's running around.

But.. like... game mechanics... Should follow some semblance of order...

Twohothardware

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

Deep Fissure is a CC is why.

There's too much stuff that's blockable in the game already which is why there's so many of these perma block magplar and dk's running around.

But.. like... game mechanics... Should follow some semblance of order...

It does. Sub Assault is an attack that has a timer before the damage like Haunting Curse and Power of the Light.

thankyourat

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

It's obvious why they made the CC portion blockable but the damage not.

Is Haunting Curse blockable? Is Power of the Light blockable? Why should Subterranean Assault which is also a timed activation and requires being lined up with the target be blockable?

The more abilities they make in this game that can be easily blocked the more perma blocking Magplar and DK builds are going to take over.

But if you have high unblockable damage you force players into playing a more tanky build. This ability does nothing against perma block tanks. The players it hurts are the ones using balanced builds. And then to add insult to injury stam wardens have this burst with the ability to turtle forever if need be

Xsorus

Joy_Division wrote: »

It's a strong combo, but if 90% of the game's wardens are potatoes and can't pull it off, then I'm ok with that as it means it requires some actual skill to get results rather than just spamming something or using a destro ult say

Which boggles my mind, cause you can use invasion and land it damn near 100% of the time on a cced target

SirDopey

I disagree, its fine as it is and actually requires a fair bit of skill to hit the target from stampede.

IF you have used the ability, you will know that there's actually a minimum distance the target has to be to be affected (not sure if bug or intended). So to land it from stampede you either have to time it perfectly so that it fires before you arrive, or back peddle away from the target real quick otherwise it will just go through them without doing any damage at all.

Give the 3 second delay, that it fires straight and that it's direction is determined half a second before it fires I see no reason at all to nerf it.

If you're dying to it, stop standing still...

Twohothardware

thankyourat wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

It's obvious why they made the CC portion blockable but the damage not.

Is Haunting Curse blockable? Is Power of the Light blockable? Why should Subterranean Assault which is also a timed activation and requires being lined up with the target be blockable?

The more abilities they make in this game that can be easily blocked the more perma blocking Magplar and DK builds are going to take over.

But if you have high unblockable damage you force players into playing a more tanky build. This ability does nothing against perma block tanks. The players it hurts are the ones using balanced builds. And then to add insult to injury stam wardens have this burst with the ability to turtle forever if need be

If it was easy to do all that on a Stamwarden they'd be all over Cyrodiil. On PS4 it takes forever just to finish a Warden kill bounty. Warden is definitely in the top for burst damage but it's player skill that makes it potent and I rarely run into a player that's good on one. StamNB has the same burst potential with an easy CC in fear and Stamplar has high burst as well with unblockable Power of the Light and undodgeable Jabs.

Thogard

SirDopey wrote: »

I disagree, its fine as it is and actually requires a fair bit of skill to hit the target from stampede.

IF you have used the ability, you will know that there's actually a minimum distance the target has to be to be affected (not sure if bug or intended). So to land it from stampede you either have to time it perfectly so that it fires before you arrive, or back peddle away from the target real quick otherwise it will just go through them without doing any damage at all.

Give the 3 second delay, that it fires straight and that it's direction is determined half a second before it fires I see no reason at all to nerf it.

If you're dying to it, stop standing still...

<stop standing still

I would if i didn't have a stampede snare and a stun from dawnbreaker going off on me literally 0.5s sooner. And if i block the dawnbreaker stun then i obviously cant be moving too fast anyway. and if i rolldodge the stampede then im caught in the dawnbreaker...

I want to stress that most wardens aren't that great and don't know how to really time the burst. I'm more concerned about the ones that can because there is no reliable counter.

SirDopey

Thogard wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

I disagree, its fine as it is and actually requires a fair bit of skill to hit the target from stampede.

IF you have used the ability, you will know that there's actually a minimum distance the target has to be to be affected (not sure if bug or intended). So to land it from stampede you either have to time it perfectly so that it fires before you arrive, or back peddle away from the target real quick otherwise it will just go through them without doing any damage at all.

Give the 3 second delay, that it fires straight and that it's direction is determined half a second before it fires I see no reason at all to nerf it.

If you're dying to it, stop standing still...

<stop standing still

I would if i didn't have a stampede snare and a stun from dawnbreaker going off on me literally 0.5s sooner. And if i block the dawnbreaker stun then i obviously cant be moving too fast anyway. and if i rolldodge the stampede then im caught in the dawnbreaker...

I want to stress that most wardens aren't that great and don't know how to really time the burst. I'm more concerned about the ones that can because there is no reliable counter.

Yeah but really good players are going to be dangerous regardless of what skills or class they are using.

Stop calling for Nerfs based on a combo that 90% of the player base cannot reliably pull off.

Thogard

SirDopey wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

SirDopey wrote: »

I disagree, its fine as it is and actually requires a fair bit of skill to hit the target from stampede.

IF you have used the ability, you will know that there's actually a minimum distance the target has to be to be affected (not sure if bug or intended). So to land it from stampede you either have to time it perfectly so that it fires before you arrive, or back peddle away from the target real quick otherwise it will just go through them without doing any damage at all.

Give the 3 second delay, that it fires straight and that it's direction is determined half a second before it fires I see no reason at all to nerf it.

If you're dying to it, stop standing still...

<stop standing still

I would if i didn't have a stampede snare and a stun from dawnbreaker going off on me literally 0.5s sooner. And if i block the dawnbreaker stun then i obviously cant be moving too fast anyway. and if i rolldodge the stampede then im caught in the dawnbreaker...

I want to stress that most wardens aren't that great and don't know how to really time the burst. I'm more concerned about the ones that can because there is no reliable counter.

Yeah but really good players are going to be dangerous regardless of what skills or class they are using.

Stop calling for Nerfs based on a combo that 90% of the player base cannot reliably pull off.

Good players are dangerous regardless of what class they're on. But other good players can usually counter those bursts.

Unless there's a good player on Stam warden. There's no good counter, even if the stam warden is up against a player better than him. That's the problem.

It's "Overperforming"

Lexxypwns

The damage from both morphs of Scorch has been 100% in blockable since day one of morrowind beta btw.

Maulkin

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

Deep Fissure is a CC is why.

There's too much stuff that's blockable in the game already which is why there's so many of these perma block magplar and dk's running around.

But.. like... game mechanics... Should follow some semblance of order...

It does. Sub Assault is an attack that has a timer before the damage like Haunting Curse and Power of the Light.

The difference with both though is that they are effects placed on the target. The moment someone puts a curse on you, you count to three and it explodes. So you know exactly when to shield/heal up etc.

The Warden skill is a bit like Proxy Det. You can arm it out of LOS. And the sound is negligible compared to proxy det for example. Realistically, unless you are in a duel, you're not gonna see it coming. And the AoE is massive compared to Curse and Backlash.

These are quite big differences.

Barbaran

except that subterranian assault (or fissure) actually has a skill gap to land.
if your sganding infront of the enemy spamming abilities and seeing who hits harder, your pvping wrong.
it has a 3.5 sec delay after cast, and you have to positiion yourself facing your target.
NOT your crosshair, you have to actually position your toon facing the right direction, which is much more difficult then just getting your crosshair on your target

IlCanis_LupuslI

Thogard wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous. We're seeing more and more of it.

Too many people running one-round KO stam warden builds. And they all run the same thing... stampede, dawnbreaker, beetles, and reverse slice.

Subterranean assault needs to be a 1s channel like dark flare currently is. Giving that much burst to an ability that doesn't do its damage on the global cooldown (and stun and fracture) is just a bad idea. But to give it to the class with the best pvp healing and the best pvp sustain is absurd.

Ive been posting here for over a year.. never made a QQ post.

And for those who say "Oh its telegraphed, learn to play!" yeah, the bad wardens do that. I'm talking about the good ones that activate beetles and pop an immov pot out of range, then stampede on top of you right before beetles triggers. unless youre running javelin on templar there is 0 counterplay other than dodgerolling the stampede...

Oh yeah and they have major heroism through shimmering shield, so they can do this about every 15s...

It blows my mind that this ability hasn't been nerfed yet. And thats not even factoring in the whole "ignore the Z axis" element of it. Always fun to be playing BGs in arcane university and get dropped by a beetle being cast by someone two floors above you.

Here's a pic.... but lets not pretend you don't know exactly what im talking about. Just watch kodi's stream for 10min.

its a combo that kills most players in about 1.1s (not counting the stampede travel time). Thats ridiculous.

Everyone who doesn't already have one is making a stam warden on the 2x XP event next week.



EDIT: and in case you cant tell, that is in no CP battlegrounds. Its even worse in CP.

Soul assaults doing 35k damage vs players(tested), Incas critting for 15k, destro ults doing 30k+damage vs players and of all classes you think stamina wardens with literally no decent stuns and no usable class damage ulti are OP??? You clearly need to get your priorities right (facepalm)
I'll tell you what people tell me when i complain about the above mentioned problems= L2P

Kas

yeah, it's so good, it might be overperforming. incap sa cloak are even worse, though

IlCanis_LupuslI

deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »

Let’s all be honest here. Any class can do this type of burst setup. An Stamblade can cloak, HA, SA, IC, KB with animation canceling and kill someone in a second and a half. A mage blade will hit with a 13k assassins will and impale. A DK will whip or wrecking blow, leap, executioner, all canceled animation and dead in a second and a half or less. Templar spams Jabs until dawn breaker is up, use it, then radiant. A sorc will have curse on you, mages fury, and procced frags, and as you hit low HP mages fury’s second effect occurs to execute.

Literally all the above combos can kill someone in 1.5 seconds. But let me rephrase that...any of the above combos will kill a MEDIUM armor wearer in 1.5 seconds. There’s the issue.

All these heavy armor super tank builds that are running around these days can have damn near all the above happen at the same time and if someone wasn’t clever enough to CC them they block through it and laugh (slightly exaggerating here lol). You wear medium? You’re in a world of hurt. Now don’t get me wrong. I wear medium and do more than fine. But I have to work twice as hard to survive and no matter what, when a persons timing is just right they can melt me or anyone else wearing medium in a second because there is no counter play as the majority of the above combos have at least one or two huge damage attacks that are undodgable. Personally, I hold block and usually survive. But like I said, there are plenty of times where everything is going fine and above 90% HP then suddenly dead and it’s like “wtf just happened” and it all took place in one second, even faster than the break free animation trying to get away and heal.

People over exaggerate saying taking away major evasion from people in 5 heavy will some how be a huge nerf to these super tanks but that’s a load of crap. It will slightly help and maybe force some people to choose between forward momentum and rally if they want to remove snares, but overall these people are already so spec’d into block cost reduction they don’t need to evade anything.

Call me salty all you want, but heavy out performs medium. Light out performs medium. Keeping shuffle to just medium armor is not a buff to medium armor. If anything, wearing 5 or more medium dodge roll fatigue should be reduced by 50% and if you receive AoE damage while dodging the damage is reduced by 50%. NB no longer gets the 30% stamina recovery bonus and cost for everything has been increased in general so the ancient infinite dodge rollers would never be as bad as they were in the past. Honestly, shuffles snare immunity to give a flat 6 seconds of snare removal if 5 or more medium is worn. It’s expensive as it is so don’t think people will just spam it endlessly.

That’s my 2 cents.

I play stamden in Medium, in telling you, surviving is very interesting sometimes especially with soul assaults and ground aoes everywhere

paulsimonps

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

Deep Fissure is a CC is why.

There's too much stuff that's blockable in the game already which is why there's so many of these perma block magplar and dk's running around.

But.. like... game mechanics... Should follow some semblance of order...

It does. Sub Assault is an attack that has a timer before the damage like Haunting Curse and Power of the Light.

@Twohothardware

Except Haunting Curse and Power of the Light is directly applied on the target and will always hit, not even sure you can dodge them, but this one is not a directly applied attack. Its a PBAoE using giant bugs.

Maulkin

paulsimonps wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Twohothardware wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I just tested

Both damage is not blockable

However Deep Fissure can be "blocked" for triggers

Edit: example - sub Assault will not have the * indication by the DMG, while deep Fissure will and it triggers things

And it still bothers me it's unblockable - it makes no sense

Deep Fissure is a CC is why.

There's too much stuff that's blockable in the game already which is why there's so many of these perma block magplar and dk's running around.

But.. like... game mechanics... Should follow some semblance of order...

It does. Sub Assault is an attack that has a timer before the damage like Haunting Curse and Power of the Light.

@Twohothardware

Except Haunting Curse and Power of the Light is directly applied on the target and will always hit, not even sure you can dodge them, but this one is not a directly applied attack. Its a PBAoE using giant bugs.

You can't dodge them, but you always know when they are on you and you can sort of "plan around it". There's no surprise in being hit with Curse or Power of Light, both the sound and the visual are very strong and on you. There is very often (almost always) an element of surprise being hit by Shalks though. Which in my opinion is actually better and I think that's what makes them really potent. And by the way, Shalk is undodgable too, if you're in their AoE you'll get hit mid-dodge.

I hope they don't nerf them, I think Warden is fine with the burst. Quite a lot of the QQ is because of the tankiness coupled with the burst. But that is because of the current S&B, 2H, Heavy Armor meta and cheap defensive ults. If they end up tweaking the skill, I hope it's simply adding a strong and unique sound effect like Proxy Det so you always know Shalks are armed and when they're about to explode.