Subterranean Assault Overperforming

ezeepeezee

Like others have said, it's easy enough to die to well executed combos from any class. My stam warden is currently a colonel, and in my opinion sub assault is not overperforming.

Yes, it hits hard. If you line it up and land it, and only every 3 seconds, if you actually use every 3rd GCD to use it.

It's more of a group support ability. It fractures big groups and does some damage so that your group can do better damage to them.

If you want to talk about overperforming, how about we address s/b ult gen stam NBs with rally and s/b ult? Or something else along those lines.

Again, as others have said, if SA were to stop hitting through block, stam warden would have literally no way of pressuring permablockers and that's just not right.

Maulkin

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Like others have said, it's easy enough to die to well executed combos from any class. My stam warden is currently a colonel, and in my opinion sub assault is not overperforming.

Yes, it hits hard. If you line it up and land it, and only every 3 seconds, if you actually use every 3rd GCD to use it.

It's more of a group support ability. It fractures big groups and does some damage so that your group can do better damage to them.

If you want to talk about overperforming, how about we address s/b ult gen stam NBs with rally and s/b ult? Or something else along those lines.

Again, as others have said, if SA were to stop hitting through block, stam warden would have literally no way of pressuring permablockers and that's just not right.

Wut?

Not only did that make no sense, but the best ult generating class in the game is Stam Warden with an incredible margin to the rest. Shimmering Shield + Heroic Slash = Healing Thicket for days.

ezeepeezee

Maulkin wrote: »

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Like others have said, it's easy enough to die to well executed combos from any class. My stam warden is currently a colonel, and in my opinion sub assault is not overperforming.

Yes, it hits hard. If you line it up and land it, and only every 3 seconds, if you actually use every 3rd GCD to use it.

It's more of a group support ability. It fractures big groups and does some damage so that your group can do better damage to them.

If you want to talk about overperforming, how about we address s/b ult gen stam NBs with rally and s/b ult? Or something else along those lines.

Again, as others have said, if SA were to stop hitting through block, stam warden would have literally no way of pressuring permablockers and that's just not right.

Wut?

Not only did that make no sense, but the best ult generating class in the game is Stam Warden with an incredible margin to the rest. Shimmering Shield + Heroic Slash = Healing Thicket for days.

I am aware. I guess you haven't noticed the rise in s/b stam NBs, but no matter. And this isn't a thread about healing thicket, which I agree needs tuning, as does the dev team, which is why it's getting tuned next patch.

Maulkin

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Like others have said, it's easy enough to die to well executed combos from any class. My stam warden is currently a colonel, and in my opinion sub assault is not overperforming.

Yes, it hits hard. If you line it up and land it, and only every 3 seconds, if you actually use every 3rd GCD to use it.

It's more of a group support ability. It fractures big groups and does some damage so that your group can do better damage to them.

If you want to talk about overperforming, how about we address s/b ult gen stam NBs with rally and s/b ult? Or something else along those lines.

Again, as others have said, if SA were to stop hitting through block, stam warden would have literally no way of pressuring permablockers and that's just not right.

Wut?

Not only did that make no sense, but the best ult generating class in the game is Stam Warden with an incredible margin to the rest. Shimmering Shield + Heroic Slash = Healing Thicket for days.

I am aware. I guess you haven't noticed the rise in s/b stam NBs, but no matter. And this isn't a thread about healing thicket, which I agree needs tuning, as does the dev team, which is why it's getting tuned next patch.

That has nothing to do with Ult Gen though, which is why I said "wut" because your statement made no sense. It's just a result of the Heavy Armor + S&B/2H meta. Stam Blades don't have better Ult Gen than anyone else really, as low as anyone in fact.

Stam Blades generally prefer Incap as ultimate over Soul Harvest because it's Disease damage rather than Magic damage (ergo, higher damage with standard stam build CP allocation) and also it's a stun. And they obviously prefer Surprise Attack over Heroic Slash because of both the Fracture, the higher base damage and the fact it synergises with Cloak to give a stun.

Not to mention 2/3 of the benefits of Heroic Slash (Snare and Maim) they can get from Fear, which they will always have on their bar anyway.

ezeepeezee

Maulkin wrote: »

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

ezeepeezee wrote: »

Like others have said, it's easy enough to die to well executed combos from any class. My stam warden is currently a colonel, and in my opinion sub assault is not overperforming.

Yes, it hits hard. If you line it up and land it, and only every 3 seconds, if you actually use every 3rd GCD to use it.

It's more of a group support ability. It fractures big groups and does some damage so that your group can do better damage to them.

If you want to talk about overperforming, how about we address s/b ult gen stam NBs with rally and s/b ult? Or something else along those lines.

Again, as others have said, if SA were to stop hitting through block, stam warden would have literally no way of pressuring permablockers and that's just not right.

Wut?

Not only did that make no sense, but the best ult generating class in the game is Stam Warden with an incredible margin to the rest. Shimmering Shield + Heroic Slash = Healing Thicket for days.

I am aware. I guess you haven't noticed the rise in s/b stam NBs, but no matter. And this isn't a thread about healing thicket, which I agree needs tuning, as does the dev team, which is why it's getting tuned next patch.

That has nothing to do with Ult Gen though, which is why I said "wut" because your statement made no sense. It's just a result of the Heavy Armor + S&B/2H meta. Stam Blades don't have better Ult Gen than anyone else really, as low as anyone in fact.

Stam Blades generally prefer Incap as ultimate over Soul Harvest because it's Disease damage rather than Magic damage (ergo, higher damage with standard stam build CP allocation) and also it's a stun. And they obviously prefer Surprise Attack over Heroic Slash because of both the Fracture, the higher base damage and the fact it synergises with Cloak to give a stun.

Not to mention 2/3 of the benefits of Heroic Slash (Snare and Maim) they can get from Fear, which they will always have on their bar anyway.

With decisive, catalyst and combat frenzy (not to mention bloodspawn), the ult gen is actually pretty damn good. But yes, whether or not ult gen is being built into is actually irrelevant, I will admit that. Which again is why they are looking to increase the cost of the actual culprit, s/b ult. If you have fought a NB that drops s/b ult, hits from behind it, then uses cloak/rally to guarantee a huge crit rally heal, you'll understand what I'm talking about. But as you said, it's the HA + s/b meta at issue.

I actually think s/b is at the core of many problems in this game, but this wasn't a discussion about that. It is relevant, however, because the fact that sub assault goes through block is, to me, an important function of it. If I had no way at all to damage those people, they would easily out-sustain me with low cost blocking and I would be at their mercy.

Sorc has curse, NB has fear, Templar has PotL, DK has DoTs. If warden lost SA, it would have literally 0 tools for dealing with permablocking. And frankly, SA isn't actually enough to deal with it on good s/b builds. I don't even fight those people on my warden anymore unless they refuse to leave me alone.

Lord-Otto

@Waffennacht

A bit late, but Dawnbreaker is not like Subterranean. It's not ground-based. The undodgable property comes from the cone ->AoE <-.

HiImRex

but you're bad so I'm not sure if I can trust your screenshot, on a scale of 1 - 10, you're about a 4 or a 5 when I run into you in BGs in terms of how easy it is to counter play

Waffennacht

@Lord-Otto oh, I get it now! Ty, after all this I think I now understand completely, there's a lot more variations of AoEs than I first thought

Edit: so I take it PBAoE is considered ground?

ak_pvp

Sanctum74 wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Make it have to have a target to use. Eliminates the whole Los running into a burst.

It's already a delayed and highly telegraphed skill, now you want us to have to aim it twice for each use?

Or are you suggesting we have to target a player to use it and then it automatically hits them if they are within range 3 seconds later with no further aiming needed?

Being a conal aoe skill with a delay it already requires some skill to use effectively and expecting wardens to aim twice would render the skill useless. If it only had to be aimed on activation it would just make the skill stronger and there would still be calls for nerfs.

I mean the out of combat LoS into stamplede, dawnbreaker combo. Not directly aim it, but have a target within X metres.

ToRelax

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Lord-Otto oh, I get it now! Ty, after all this I think I now understand completely, there's a lot more variations of AoEs than I first thought

Edit: so I take it PBAoE is considered ground?

PBAoE is just a term used to describe that is bound to the player character rather than targeted, splash damage or whatever.
Draw Essence is PBAoE and not ground based AoE. Winter's Revenge is targeted and ground based AoE.

Thogard

BUMP - i wanted to clear up some misinformation from earlier in the thread.

So i did some testing with a buddy.

On mag wardens using beetles through walls, it seems that only the stun status effect goes through the walls. It seems they need clean LOS for the damage to go through. The exception to the LOS check is when there is significant vertical distance... the vert distance doesn't matter for either the damage or the stun.

Dmg is still unblockable though...

Has anyone tested with stam warden?

SanTii.92

Not that I disagree with OP, but from where does it come this notion that wardens have the best sustain? Simply not true.

ezeepeezee

Thogard wrote: »

BUMP - i wanted to clear up some misinformation from earlier in the thread.

So i did some testing with a buddy.

On mag wardens using beetles through walls, it seems that only the stun status effect goes through the walls. It seems they need clean LOS for the damage to go through. The exception to the LOS check is when there is significant vertical distance... the vert distance doesn't matter for either the damage or the stun.

Dmg is still unblockable though...

Has anyone tested with stam warden?

Yes, my stam warden is AR26. Sub Assault does not stun, but the damage goes through block, and not through obstructions. It's the only thing I have to pressure people through block (which I have to do, a lot).

I don't know 100% whether the breach/fracture goes through block because I don't use buff trackers, but it certainly seems like it does. I can test it and get back to you.

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Not that I disagree with OP, but from where does it come this notion that wardens have the best sustain? Simply not true.

Warden might not have the best sustain mathematically, I don't know for sure, but having both Major Expedition and Major Endurance on-demand does wonders for resource management. It also has two ways to restore stamina while stamina recovery is disabled (blocking, sprinting and sneaking) - Nature's Gift passive and Bull Netch. All of that put together, on top of several other things like shimmering shield reducing the need to spend stamina on healing, enormous amounts of mitigation with ice fortress, and so on and so on, make the class very, very strong in PVP.

SirCritical

Yes, yes, YES! NERF it!!!4!44!!!!4!4!!!!

And nerf Warden at all! Let us just play rock-paper-scissors with Rakkhat!

GrigorijMalahevich

Tried yesterday to play stamden in medium... Preciously only played melee in heavy and oh boi, was I dying like it is going out of fashion...

On my magsorc I have "oh fecees" button with healing ward and hardened ward, but on stamden without vigor I was just stopping to exist by cooldown...

To be honest, if I managed to land my burst shalk/stampede/swing or no swing/dawnbreaker/reverse - no block = horse simulator. Yes block = not that devastating.

Stamsorc is far superior in terms of selfsustain just break LoS and dark deal...


Playing openworld solo pvp in medium is quite difficult against such huge numbers of cloaked blades, however, it is super fun with such speed and bird of prey is just awesome!

No idea how to not die on a horse against stamblades...

P.S. No idea why, just a fun fact - blades that ganked me were messaging me about how bad I am wtf is their problem...

SanTii.92

ezeepeezee wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Not that I disagree with OP, but from where does it come this notion that wardens have the best sustain? Simply not true.

Warden might not have the best sustain mathematically, I don't know for sure, but having both Major Expedition and Major Endurance on-demand does wonders for resource management. It also has two ways to restore stamina while stamina recovery is disabled (blocking, sprinting and sneaking) - Nature's Gift passive and Bull Netch. All of that put together, on top of several other things like shimmering shield reducing the need to spend stamina on healing, enormous amounts of mitigation with ice fortress, and so on and so on, make the class very, very strong in PVP.

Everyone has relativly easy access to major expedition, and free to endurance from any stam pot. Also you shouldn't even be running bull netch on a 2h build, and Nature's gift is kinda of a meh passive, particularly for stam wardens since you just can't proc it on cd, actually far from it. So no, not even close to the best sustain. Shimmering shield is ridiculous tho, give you that.

Strider__Roshin

A non-ultimate AoE that hits as hard as a wrecking blow, and debuffs you is a little over the top to be honest.

ezeepeezee

SanTii.92 wrote: »

ezeepeezee wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Not that I disagree with OP, but from where does it come this notion that wardens have the best sustain? Simply not true.

Warden might not have the best sustain mathematically, I don't know for sure, but having both Major Expedition and Major Endurance on-demand does wonders for resource management. It also has two ways to restore stamina while stamina recovery is disabled (blocking, sprinting and sneaking) - Nature's Gift passive and Bull Netch. All of that put together, on top of several other things like shimmering shield reducing the need to spend stamina on healing, enormous amounts of mitigation with ice fortress, and so on and so on, make the class very, very strong in PVP.

Everyone has relativly easy access to major expedition, and free to endurance from any stam pot. Also you shouldn't even be running bull netch on a 2h build, and Nature's gift is kinda of a meh passive, particularly for stam wardens since you just can't proc it on cd, actually far from it. So no, not even close to the best sustain. Shimmering shield is ridiculous tho, give you that.

I wasn't describing any particular build. You have easy major expedition with bow, but with 2h/1h+s, it's not as easy.

Regarding potions, unless you are drinking them on cooldown, you're not going to have as high of uptime on major endurance as a warden. I use bird of prey for the stam regen all the time; I take potions when I need them and don't waste my magicka when the potion is up. Also bear in mind that you're getting major expedition from BoP using magicka instead of stamina.

I only run bull netch on DW/1h+s or DW/bow builds. But it is also valuable on a 1h+s/1h+s build, as is nature's gift when you use leeching vines. Afaik, only helping hands is comparable to that combo when blocking frequently.

You can debate all of that, but fwiw, I have played quite a few different stam builds on all of the classes and I can say without much question that sustaining on a stam warden is very much easier than the others. As I said, it might not have the best resource return on paper, but in practice it is competitive.

Lord-Otto

@Valera Progib

Low self esteem and realization they can never win in a fair fight. It's why they play Gankblade and only writing hatemail makes them sleep at night.
(^_-)

NyassaV

I can see why it's a lil to powerful but honestly they have little other goof burst

WrathOfInnos

So tired of all the nerf threads. If you think something is powerful, go make one and play it. Either you will have a great time and beat everyone, or you will realize everything has weaknesses and you were wrong. The grass is not always greener on the other side. If it ever turns into a situation where nearly all players are using a class or build, I'm sure ZoS will make adjustments.

dodgehopper_ESO

Autumnhart wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Autumnhart wrote: »

It's not overperforming, it just needs more of a visual cue than, "There's a warden facing me." I'll settle for an audio cue that happens before I'm already shalked.

Ummm how about the big glowing blue circle under the wardens feet.

That's only if you missed the very obvious and telegraphed dance animation to use the skill.

Not sure how you could ask for anymore of a cue than that.

Been in Cyrodiil lately? The warden may see himself do all of that. I see nothing but a warden moving toward me. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

At this point I know that means get the hell out of that spot, but I am definitely NOT getting a visual cue of any kind other than the presence of a warden.

You realize this is true of a lot of classes right?

dodgehopper_ESO

Sanctum74 wrote: »

The problem is not the skill, it's skilled players and no matter how many nerfs they will always find a way to have an edge. All classes have a deadly burst combo and it usually takes skill to pull it off effectively.

To get that combo it takes good timing and the use of an ult. If they can pull it off then great, be better prepared next time.

Too many people just build for damage and do not keep any buffs, debuffs, or hot's up so they put out great damage, but die easily. If you make a well rounded build and keep your buff rotation up then you can easily survive one of these attacks and then go on the offensive.

The next biggest factor is skill and that takes time and with the warden being new people have to get used to what it's like to fight against one. No matter what class you are fighting though if your gonna follow them behind a rock then you should expect they may have a gift waiting for you.

This is true. Part of the problem though is that a PvE focused player will not build for PvP. He's going to specialize down to his Trial build and think he's a veritable god in ESO. Meanwhile of course to perform properly in that trial he's reliant on the other specs and builds on his team to be functional. In PvP it doesn't quite work like this. There are of course synergistic builds that work well together in pvp but a character has to be self reliant to some extent in Cyrodiil to perform well. I believe a lot of players come to Cyrodiil expecting their Uber Trial build to be worth a crap in pvp. Conversely, I've heard it said over and over how horrible the PvP player base is in Trials. I'm sure many of you have heard the complaints (they're 90% of the player base so its not surprising their voice washes over ours). The reality is they are two different games really. I really wish I could in fact have 2 preset builds for both purposes, encompassing changes in everything from Gear, Skill choice, and Constellation. Other games have done such a thing and I really wouldn't mind it in this game. Being a 'true tank' in PvE is just so much different than a tanky killer in PvP. True Tanks can't generally do story content in a very efficient manner, they are literally only useful in Trials. I've actually abandoned tanking because of this fact because I want to enjoy the fullness of the game and not be forced to only do Trials. Forget that.

raasdal

Thogard wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Thogard wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

If you play sorc or DK. Root, turn around. They can heavy attack to turn, but then it fks their burst. If you play NB. Cloak and move. If you play templar. Javelin them? (Less usability tbh.) If you play warden, well, then you are probably using it.

I can do the same as a DK, my ST burst combo is prebuff inferno. Talons, deep breath, whip, power whip. Deep breath, power whip, and inferno pop at the same time. Thats 2 abilities ignoring GCD. 3 if you count a random skoria proc. Or more close to the warden example. Breath, talons, leap. with DB explosion and a probable skoria popping to deal decent damage to groups. But mine is full AoE

Same with POTL or curse. Imo shalk is fine and doesn't need a nerf. IF ANYTHING. Then it has to be within range to cast.

I dont know how many times i have to say it.

The stam warden activates shalks off screen and out of range. 2 seconds later, the stam warden moves into range and uses stampede. The shalks hit right when stampede hits. There is zero counterplay.

EDIT: took out some mean things i said. i apologize for that.

1 counter play would be use a shield if mag
Another would be block
Another is have more than 20k health

I just can't feel bad about a DD being dealt damage, that's your trade off, you can kill like non other, but you die just as easily as you kill.

If you had 30-40k health or were defensive oriented you wouldn't have these issues.

I think too many players are too offensively oriented and lead this game into pure glass cannons.

Everyone wants to be a 1vXer which isn't good for the game

Stop thinking about it in terms of whether its possible or not, and think of it in terms of "If any class should be able to do it, which one is that?"

It should be a stam blade. Or a mag sorc.

But certainly not the class with the best pvp healing and sustain in the game...... ...... ..........

I am curious. Can you define "Best PvP Healing" and "Best PvP Sustain" ?

I mean it. I don't play Warden. But i have looked at their skills and passives. The Netch is worth about 300 Regen. So is the Templar rune. And it does not even touch Dark Deal. And DK Battleroar? Only NB is inferior, since they ruined Siphoning. And for the healing, i don't see that either? Are you talking about the OP Ultimate that is getting nerfed now? Or am i missing something else. Because everything else they have, is Magicka, right?

The times i have been fighting them, they seem pretty "meh" to me.

wheem_ESO

Stamina Wardens are overpowered right now, but Subterranean Assault is only part of the equation. A huge issue is how ridiculously OP Shimmering Shield is. This one ability can make them largely immune to the damage of many magicka builds, as well as cause nearly 100% uptime on Major Heroism. Boy oh boy what I would give to have an ability that work comparably well vs melee damage...

I just finished a Battleground on a Magicka Nightblade, where I did 607.2k damage, and got 4 total kills and assists. Why? Well, surely it must be because the other team(s) had good healers, permablocking guard-tanks, etc...right? Well, no. It's because one team had 3 Stamina Wardens who knew how to keep Shimmering Shield up, absorbing the overwhelming majority of my damage. Those same 3 players made up the vast majority of my fights that match, and every time it was the same thing - keep Shimmering Shield up and take almost no damage until you manage to land a 1-shot combo.

Builds that don't have to rely virtually 100% on projectile attacks will stand a much better chance at actually landing a kill on a Stam Warden, but even then the threat of a 1-shot is very real. And if they start taking heat from ranged builds, and don't want to throw Dawnbreakers constantly, enjoy trying to burst them through the Tree-ult that they'll be casting every 10-12 seconds.

Nerfing the Ult cost of the Trees was a fart in a hurricane; the real issue is the Ult gen of Shimmering Shield and Enchanted Forest (which, obviously, can be stacked with sets).

Thogard

raasdal wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Thogard wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

If you play sorc or DK. Root, turn around. They can heavy attack to turn, but then it fks their burst. If you play NB. Cloak and move. If you play templar. Javelin them? (Less usability tbh.) If you play warden, well, then you are probably using it.

I can do the same as a DK, my ST burst combo is prebuff inferno. Talons, deep breath, whip, power whip. Deep breath, power whip, and inferno pop at the same time. Thats 2 abilities ignoring GCD. 3 if you count a random skoria proc. Or more close to the warden example. Breath, talons, leap. with DB explosion and a probable skoria popping to deal decent damage to groups. But mine is full AoE

Same with POTL or curse. Imo shalk is fine and doesn't need a nerf. IF ANYTHING. Then it has to be within range to cast.

I dont know how many times i have to say it.

The stam warden activates shalks off screen and out of range. 2 seconds later, the stam warden moves into range and uses stampede. The shalks hit right when stampede hits. There is zero counterplay.

EDIT: took out some mean things i said. i apologize for that.

1 counter play would be use a shield if mag
Another would be block
Another is have more than 20k health

I just can't feel bad about a DD being dealt damage, that's your trade off, you can kill like non other, but you die just as easily as you kill.

If you had 30-40k health or were defensive oriented you wouldn't have these issues.

I think too many players are too offensively oriented and lead this game into pure glass cannons.

Everyone wants to be a 1vXer which isn't good for the game

Stop thinking about it in terms of whether its possible or not, and think of it in terms of "If any class should be able to do it, which one is that?"

It should be a stam blade. Or a mag sorc.

But certainly not the class with the best pvp healing and sustain in the game...... ...... ..........

I am curious. Can you define "Best PvP Healing" and "Best PvP Sustain" ?

I mean it. I don't play Warden. But i have looked at their skills and passives. The Netch is worth about 300 Regen. So is the Templar rune. And it does not even touch Dark Deal. And DK Battleroar? Only NB is inferior, since they ruined Siphoning. And for the healing, i don't see that either? Are you talking about the OP Ultimate that is getting nerfed now? Or am i missing something else. Because everything else they have, is Magicka, right?

The times i have been fighting them, they seem pretty "meh" to me.

templar rune requires you to stay in one place
DK battle roar is nice but requires you to use an ultimate
dark deal is a 1s channeled, bashable ability...

any one of the warden's awesome things would be, by itself, not that big a deal. Its when you take all these things and combine them into the same class that you get a problem like this.

I'm OK with their really good sustain and defense though. Truly. It's that they have access to the insane burst through the beetles that's the problem. It's the one skill that's on every warden's bar and in all of their opponents deathspam.

Twohothardware

Thogard wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Thogard wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

If you play sorc or DK. Root, turn around. They can heavy attack to turn, but then it fks their burst. If you play NB. Cloak and move. If you play templar. Javelin them? (Less usability tbh.) If you play warden, well, then you are probably using it.

I can do the same as a DK, my ST burst combo is prebuff inferno. Talons, deep breath, whip, power whip. Deep breath, power whip, and inferno pop at the same time. Thats 2 abilities ignoring GCD. 3 if you count a random skoria proc. Or more close to the warden example. Breath, talons, leap. with DB explosion and a probable skoria popping to deal decent damage to groups. But mine is full AoE

Same with POTL or curse. Imo shalk is fine and doesn't need a nerf. IF ANYTHING. Then it has to be within range to cast.

I dont know how many times i have to say it.

The stam warden activates shalks off screen and out of range. 2 seconds later, the stam warden moves into range and uses stampede. The shalks hit right when stampede hits. There is zero counterplay.

EDIT: took out some mean things i said. i apologize for that.

1 counter play would be use a shield if mag
Another would be block
Another is have more than 20k health

I just can't feel bad about a DD being dealt damage, that's your trade off, you can kill like non other, but you die just as easily as you kill.

If you had 30-40k health or were defensive oriented you wouldn't have these issues.

I think too many players are too offensively oriented and lead this game into pure glass cannons.

Everyone wants to be a 1vXer which isn't good for the game

Stop thinking about it in terms of whether its possible or not, and think of it in terms of "If any class should be able to do it, which one is that?"

It should be a stam blade. Or a mag sorc.

But certainly not the class with the best pvp healing and sustain in the game...... ...... ..........

I am curious. Can you define "Best PvP Healing" and "Best PvP Sustain" ?

I mean it. I don't play Warden. But i have looked at their skills and passives. The Netch is worth about 300 Regen. So is the Templar rune. And it does not even touch Dark Deal. And DK Battleroar? Only NB is inferior, since they ruined Siphoning. And for the healing, i don't see that either? Are you talking about the OP Ultimate that is getting nerfed now? Or am i missing something else. Because everything else they have, is Magicka, right?

The times i have been fighting them, they seem pretty "meh" to me.

templar rune requires you to stay in one place
DK battle roar is nice but requires you to use an ultimate
dark deal is a 1s channeled, bashable ability...

any one of the warden's awesome things would be, by itself, not that big a deal. Its when you take all these things and combine them into the same class that you get a problem like this.

I'm OK with their really good sustain and defense though. Truly. It's that they have access to the insane burst through the beetles that's the problem. It's the one skill that's on every warden's bar and in all of their opponents deathspam.

Now just explain how the Shalks are any different than Haunting Curse or Power of the Light which are also on every Sorcs and Templars bar and provide insane burst. Shalks are the only one of those three that actually takes some skill to time and land as well.

Ragnarock41

stam warden is basically Dk on steroids to me.
It does every job better than my toon.
Farming one myself at the moment, Its a jack of all trades class really.
Needs some minor nerfs, or other classes should be redesigned with same flexibility.

Avnr

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

stam warden is basically Dk on steroids to me.
It does every job better than my toon.
Farming one myself at the moment, Its a jack of all trades class really.
Needs some minor nerfs, or other classes should be redesigned with same flexibility.

go ahead , no way they going to nerf there own p2w class , so have fun like i do:)

i have both magicka and stamina , copyed Kodi build 7legion agility ... 2H s&b ....beast

killimandrosb16_ESO

No. sub assault is not OP. Period. The damage is actually very well balanced towards how tricky it is to pull it off. Maybe the most easily dodgeable attack for any stam class.
No, wardens shields are not OP. Period. It stops damage, but unlike some other shields it does not stop the extra dots or whatever from attacks. Did you know you can easily cc a warden? Maybe more than any other classes.
Yes 7 legion is OP and should be drastically nerfed if they (developers) want to go the way of HA being a soaking damage class and not primarily a deal damage class. But thats not the warden classes fault is it. Theres other nasty sets out there as well.