Subterranean Assault Overperforming

Maulkin

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

No. sub assault is not OP. Period. The damage is actually very well balanced towards how tricky it is to pull it off. Maybe the most easily dodgeable attack for any stam class.
No, wardens shields are not OP. Period. It stops damage, but unlike some other shields it does not stop the extra dots or whatever from attacks. Did you know you can easily cc a warden? Maybe more than any other classes.
Yes 7 legion is OP and should be drastically nerfed if they (developers) want to go the way of HA being a soaking damage class and not primarily a deal damage class. But thats not the warden classes fault is it. Theres other nasty sets out there as well.

Sub Assault is not dodgeable. If you're in the cone, you get hit mid-dodge. If the Warden is standing 10m away from you when it goes off, it's a guaranteed unblockable/undodgeable hit.

killimandrosb16_ESO

you said it yourself; if youre in the cone...its a 3 sec cast ability with extremely clear visuals. Get out of the cone....and if the warden is standing 10m away from you when it goes off after you saw it incoming for 3 secs..then hopefully its because theres tonnes of other AoE effects going off in the same area (meaning youre in a zerg or meeting a zerg). It doesnt change the fact its an attack with a high risk and a decent reward. If anything id actually buff it up as its useless against shields and HA

Maulkin

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

you said it yourself; if youre in the cone...its a 3 sec cast ability with extremely clear visuals. Get out of the cone....and if the warden is standing 10m away from you when it goes off after you saw it incoming for 3 secs..then hopefully its because theres tonnes of other AoE effects going off in the same area (meaning youre in a zerg or meeting a zerg). It doesnt change the fact its an attack with a high risk and a decent reward. If anything id actually buff it up as its useless against shields and HA

lol

Ariades_swe

Stamdens everywhere on EU atm.

Sanctum74

Maulkin wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

No. sub assault is not OP. Period. The damage is actually very well balanced towards how tricky it is to pull it off. Maybe the most easily dodgeable attack for any stam class.
No, wardens shields are not OP. Period. It stops damage, but unlike some other shields it does not stop the extra dots or whatever from attacks. Did you know you can easily cc a warden? Maybe more than any other classes.
Yes 7 legion is OP and should be drastically nerfed if they (developers) want to go the way of HA being a soaking damage class and not primarily a deal damage class. But thats not the warden classes fault is it. Theres other nasty sets out there as well.

Sub Assault is not dodgeable. If you're in the cone, you get hit mid-dodge. If the Warden is standing 10m away from you when it goes off, it's a guaranteed unblockable/undodgeable hit.

Yes it's dodgeable. You have a very telegraphed animation that gives you a glowing blue circle that telegraphs a second time exactly when it's going off. If you stand there waiting for it instead of dodging or moving through the person then you kinda deserve to get wrecked by it. If your standing still in combat your gonna die no matter what skill is used.

Thogard

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

No. sub assault is not OP. Period. The damage is actually very well balanced towards how tricky it is to pull it off. Maybe the most easily dodgeable attack for any stam class.
No, wardens shields are not OP. Period. It stops damage, but unlike some other shields it does not stop the extra dots or whatever from attacks. Did you know you can easily cc a warden? Maybe more than any other classes.
Yes 7 legion is OP and should be drastically nerfed if they (developers) want to go the way of HA being a soaking damage class and not primarily a deal damage class. But thats not the warden classes fault is it. Theres other nasty sets out there as well.

Sub Assault is not dodgeable. If you're in the cone, you get hit mid-dodge. If the Warden is standing 10m away from you when it goes off, it's a guaranteed unblockable/undodgeable hit.

Yes it's dodgeable. You have a very telegraphed animation that gives you a glowing blue circle that telegraphs a second time exactly when it's going off. If you stand there waiting for it instead of dodging or moving through the person then you kinda deserve to get wrecked by it. If your standing still in combat your gonna die no matter what skill is used.

Believe it or not, some players have figured out how to activate S.A. away from the target and use a gap closer right before the beetles pop, making the S.A. undodgeable.

Im getting a bit tired of people saying that getting hit by beetles is a “learn to play” issue. It’s actually the other way around - if you can’t land your beetles then you need to learn how to play your warden class (or learn how to count down from 3)

Maulkin

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

No. sub assault is not OP. Period. The damage is actually very well balanced towards how tricky it is to pull it off. Maybe the most easily dodgeable attack for any stam class.
No, wardens shields are not OP. Period. It stops damage, but unlike some other shields it does not stop the extra dots or whatever from attacks. Did you know you can easily cc a warden? Maybe more than any other classes.
Yes 7 legion is OP and should be drastically nerfed if they (developers) want to go the way of HA being a soaking damage class and not primarily a deal damage class. But thats not the warden classes fault is it. Theres other nasty sets out there as well.

Sub Assault is not dodgeable. If you're in the cone, you get hit mid-dodge. If the Warden is standing 10m away from you when it goes off, it's a guaranteed unblockable/undodgeable hit.

Yes it's dodgeable. You have a very telegraphed animation that gives you a glowing blue circle that telegraphs a second time exactly when it's going off. If you stand there waiting for it instead of dodging or moving through the person then you kinda deserve to get wrecked by it. If your standing still in combat your gonna die no matter what skill is used.

I don't think you understand what undodgeable means.

Sanctum74

Thogard wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

No. sub assault is not OP. Period. The damage is actually very well balanced towards how tricky it is to pull it off. Maybe the most easily dodgeable attack for any stam class.
No, wardens shields are not OP. Period. It stops damage, but unlike some other shields it does not stop the extra dots or whatever from attacks. Did you know you can easily cc a warden? Maybe more than any other classes.
Yes 7 legion is OP and should be drastically nerfed if they (developers) want to go the way of HA being a soaking damage class and not primarily a deal damage class. But thats not the warden classes fault is it. Theres other nasty sets out there as well.

Sub Assault is not dodgeable. If you're in the cone, you get hit mid-dodge. If the Warden is standing 10m away from you when it goes off, it's a guaranteed unblockable/undodgeable hit.

Yes it's dodgeable. You have a very telegraphed animation that gives you a glowing blue circle that telegraphs a second time exactly when it's going off. If you stand there waiting for it instead of dodging or moving through the person then you kinda deserve to get wrecked by it. If your standing still in combat your gonna die no matter what skill is used.

Believe it or not, some players have figured out how to activate S.A. away from the target and use a gap closer right before the beetles pop, making the S.A. undodgeable.

Im getting a bit tired of people saying that getting hit by beetles is a “learn to play” issue. It’s actually the other way around - if you can’t land your beetles then you need to learn how to play your warden class (or learn how to count down from 3)

Believe it or not some players have learned to be aware of what's actually going on in the battlefield and adjust their srategy accordingly. Follow someone behind a tree and they may have a surprise waiting for you. Be prepared next time or don't follow.

I'm getting a bit tired of people not willing to learn basic gameplay and strategy and expecting a nerf because they died, or someone out healed their damage, or got away from them. I never said it was a learn to play issue, but clearly it is since you brought it up.

Thogard

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

No. sub assault is not OP. Period. The damage is actually very well balanced towards how tricky it is to pull it off. Maybe the most easily dodgeable attack for any stam class.
No, wardens shields are not OP. Period. It stops damage, but unlike some other shields it does not stop the extra dots or whatever from attacks. Did you know you can easily cc a warden? Maybe more than any other classes.
Yes 7 legion is OP and should be drastically nerfed if they (developers) want to go the way of HA being a soaking damage class and not primarily a deal damage class. But thats not the warden classes fault is it. Theres other nasty sets out there as well.

Sub Assault is not dodgeable. If you're in the cone, you get hit mid-dodge. If the Warden is standing 10m away from you when it goes off, it's a guaranteed unblockable/undodgeable hit.

Yes it's dodgeable. You have a very telegraphed animation that gives you a glowing blue circle that telegraphs a second time exactly when it's going off. If you stand there waiting for it instead of dodging or moving through the person then you kinda deserve to get wrecked by it. If your standing still in combat your gonna die no matter what skill is used.

Believe it or not, some players have figured out how to activate S.A. away from the target and use a gap closer right before the beetles pop, making the S.A. undodgeable.

Im getting a bit tired of people saying that getting hit by beetles is a “learn to play” issue. It’s actually the other way around - if you can’t land your beetles then you need to learn how to play your warden class (or learn how to count down from 3)

Believe it or not some players have learned to be aware of what's actually going on in the battlefield and adjust their srategy accordingly. Follow someone behind a tree and they may have a surprise waiting for you. Be prepared next time or don't follow.

I'm getting a bit tired of people not willing to learn basic gameplay and strategy and expecting a nerf because they died, or someone out healed their damage, or got away from them. I never said it was a learn to play issue, but clearly it is since you brought it up.

Follow someone behind a tree? S.A. is not over performing in Zerg vs Zerg combat. Your experiences and playstyle are not relevant to the conversation at hand

Sanctum74

Thogard wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

No. sub assault is not OP. Period. The damage is actually very well balanced towards how tricky it is to pull it off. Maybe the most easily dodgeable attack for any stam class.
No, wardens shields are not OP. Period. It stops damage, but unlike some other shields it does not stop the extra dots or whatever from attacks. Did you know you can easily cc a warden? Maybe more than any other classes.
Yes 7 legion is OP and should be drastically nerfed if they (developers) want to go the way of HA being a soaking damage class and not primarily a deal damage class. But thats not the warden classes fault is it. Theres other nasty sets out there as well.

Sub Assault is not dodgeable. If you're in the cone, you get hit mid-dodge. If the Warden is standing 10m away from you when it goes off, it's a guaranteed unblockable/undodgeable hit.

Yes it's dodgeable. You have a very telegraphed animation that gives you a glowing blue circle that telegraphs a second time exactly when it's going off. If you stand there waiting for it instead of dodging or moving through the person then you kinda deserve to get wrecked by it. If your standing still in combat your gonna die no matter what skill is used.

Believe it or not, some players have figured out how to activate S.A. away from the target and use a gap closer right before the beetles pop, making the S.A. undodgeable.

Im getting a bit tired of people saying that getting hit by beetles is a “learn to play” issue. It’s actually the other way around - if you can’t land your beetles then you need to learn how to play your warden class (or learn how to count down from 3)

Believe it or not some players have learned to be aware of what's actually going on in the battlefield and adjust their srategy accordingly. Follow someone behind a tree and they may have a surprise waiting for you. Be prepared next time or don't follow.

I'm getting a bit tired of people not willing to learn basic gameplay and strategy and expecting a nerf because they died, or someone out healed their damage, or got away from them. I never said it was a learn to play issue, but clearly it is since you brought it up.

Follow someone behind a tree? S.A. is not over performing in Zerg vs Zerg combat. Your experiences and playstyle are not relevant to the conversation at hand

Actually my experience and playstyle are very relevant since I'm not the one that keeps dieing from it.

So that makes your problem even more simple if your losing in a 1v1 from it. In a 1v1 you should be even more aware of your opponent as opposed to zerging. If your not then it doesn't matter what class or skills they use. A good player is going to be able to pull off a good combo if you let them.

Stand still in the line of fire, have low resistance, no shields, or heal over times going and you will die every time. It really is that simple. Learn and adapt or donate ap.

wheem_ESO

It's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics people will go through in an effort to keep their class/spec from getting nerfed in an MMO. "I'm largely immune to your damage, while having the capacity to 1-shot you, OMG LRN2PLAY NEWB LOL!!!"

Landing the Magicka Warden Shalks is more difficult than landing the Stamina counterpart, but I'm still able to hit with them most of the time. Mag DKs can completely ruin my ability to deal effective damage, and some players are really good at avoiding them even without rooting or stunning me, but getting caught in my burst combo isn't something that's as easily avoidable as some people make it sound...and it's still much easier to avoid than Stam Warden burst.

One shotting equally leveled/geared opponents in MMO PvP simply shouldn't be a thing. Period. And of course Stam Wardens aren't the only ones capable of doing this nonsense, they're just one of the classes that have it the easiest, while simultaneously being quite survivable.

Thogard

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

No. sub assault is not OP. Period. The damage is actually very well balanced towards how tricky it is to pull it off. Maybe the most easily dodgeable attack for any stam class.
No, wardens shields are not OP. Period. It stops damage, but unlike some other shields it does not stop the extra dots or whatever from attacks. Did you know you can easily cc a warden? Maybe more than any other classes.
Yes 7 legion is OP and should be drastically nerfed if they (developers) want to go the way of HA being a soaking damage class and not primarily a deal damage class. But thats not the warden classes fault is it. Theres other nasty sets out there as well.

Sub Assault is not dodgeable. If you're in the cone, you get hit mid-dodge. If the Warden is standing 10m away from you when it goes off, it's a guaranteed unblockable/undodgeable hit.

Yes it's dodgeable. You have a very telegraphed animation that gives you a glowing blue circle that telegraphs a second time exactly when it's going off. If you stand there waiting for it instead of dodging or moving through the person then you kinda deserve to get wrecked by it. If your standing still in combat your gonna die no matter what skill is used.

Believe it or not, some players have figured out how to activate S.A. away from the target and use a gap closer right before the beetles pop, making the S.A. undodgeable.

Im getting a bit tired of people saying that getting hit by beetles is a “learn to play” issue. It’s actually the other way around - if you can’t land your beetles then you need to learn how to play your warden class (or learn how to count down from 3)

Believe it or not some players have learned to be aware of what's actually going on in the battlefield and adjust their srategy accordingly. Follow someone behind a tree and they may have a surprise waiting for you. Be prepared next time or don't follow.

I'm getting a bit tired of people not willing to learn basic gameplay and strategy and expecting a nerf because they died, or someone out healed their damage, or got away from them. I never said it was a learn to play issue, but clearly it is since you brought it up.

Follow someone behind a tree? S.A. is not over performing in Zerg vs Zerg combat. Your experiences and playstyle are not relevant to the conversation at hand

Actually my experience and playstyle are very relevant since I'm not the one that keeps dieing from it.

So that makes your problem even more simple if your losing in a 1v1 from it. In a 1v1 you should be even more aware of your opponent as opposed to zerging. If your not then it doesn't matter what class or skills they use. A good player is going to be able to pull off a good combo if you let them.

Stand still in the line of fire, have low resistance, no shields, or heal over times going and you will die every time. It really is that simple. Learn and adapt or donate ap.

You don’t know what you are talking about and you are clearly not playing against people who know what they are doing. None of your advice except “have higher resistances” is even remotely relevant to the discussion at hand, which concerns a 1.1s burst combo coming off of a stampede.

I have plenty of videos and streams up. You’re welcome to watch them to figure out my skill level.

I’m not dying to most wardens. I’m dying to very few of them. But the few that I am dying to have figured out a combo that is not dodgeable and not predictable. The warden beetles can be activated off screen or around a corner and then the warden can gap close right before beetles go off. This isn’t a hard concept.

Go to skyreach right now and look at the lowbies outside. They’re all Redguard wardens. This isn’t exactly a new thing that I’m bringing up here - it’s commonly accepted among top PvPers. In six months it will be nerfed or they’ll make it so that the beetles are a true ground target instead of following the warden like a Destro ult. It’s going to happen because the skill is overpowered in PvP and more and more people are catching on. You’re understanding is not a prerequisite and your denial just makes you look like a zergling - the only playstyle in which this isn’t the case.

Waffennacht

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics people will go through in an effort to keep their class/spec from getting nerfed in an MMO. "I'm largely immune to your damage, while having the capacity to 1-shot you, OMG LRN2PLAY NEWB LOL!!!"

Landing the Magicka Warden Shalks is more difficult than landing the Stamina counterpart, but I'm still able to hit with them most of the time. Mag DKs can completely ruin my ability to deal effective damage, and some players are really good at avoiding them even without rooting or stunning me, but getting caught in my burst combo isn't something that's as easily avoidable as some people make it sound...and it's still much easier to avoid than Stam Warden burst.

One shotting equally leveled/geared opponents in MMO PvP simply shouldn't be a thing. Period. And of course Stam Wardens aren't the only ones capable of doing this nonsense, they're just one of the classes that have it the easiest, while simultaneously being quite survivable.

Some players say, Low TTK and one shotting is the only "skillful" way of winning, you say it shouldn't be possible. A big disconnect amongst players.

Sub Assault is way easier to land because Stam abilities move your character to face the enemy for you.

Thing is, against shield wall, literally Shalk is the ONLY ability that can deal damage from a Warden

Dive may not be reflected but it'll still be reduced by 90%

With everybody running SnB, any Shalk nerf ruins Warden.

Also, SA + Incap + Execute can be just as devastating, has defile and is way cheaper

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics people will go through in an effort to keep their class/spec from getting nerfed in an MMO. "I'm largely immune to your damage, while having the capacity to 1-shot you, OMG LRN2PLAY NEWB LOL!!!"

Landing the Magicka Warden Shalks is more difficult than landing the Stamina counterpart, but I'm still able to hit with them most of the time. Mag DKs can completely ruin my ability to deal effective damage, and some players are really good at avoiding them even without rooting or stunning me, but getting caught in my burst combo isn't something that's as easily avoidable as some people make it sound...and it's still much easier to avoid than Stam Warden burst.

One shotting equally leveled/geared opponents in MMO PvP simply shouldn't be a thing. Period. And of course Stam Wardens aren't the only ones capable of doing this nonsense, they're just one of the classes that have it the easiest, while simultaneously being quite survivable.

Some players say, Low TTK and one shotting is the only "skillful" way of winning, you say it shouldn't be possible. A big disconnect amongst players.

Sub Assault is way easier to land because Stam abilities move your character to face the enemy for you.

Thing is, against shield wall, literally Shalk is the ONLY ability that can deal damage from a Warden

Dive may not be reflected but it'll still be reduced by 90%

With everybody running SnB, any Shalk nerf ruins Warden.

Also, SA + Incap + Execute can be just as devastating, has defile and is way cheaper

Permablock is its own issue and one that is being indirectly addressed. Let’s not conflate it with the 80% of players who don’t permablock.

Also the issue isn’t just the shalks, it’s the shalks + Stam gap closer + DBOS + reverse slice 1.1s combo. Mag wardens can come close if they run proxy det but they make themselves much more vulnerable in the process, which follows the game’s overall risk vs return trade off balance system.

Jawasa

In general atm stamwarden is the easiest class to play in smaller pvp engagment. Best ulti gen, easiest burst and up at dk lvl of tankyness. After the doubble XP event every1 will play one. I allready lvled mine.

Sanctum74

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics people will go through in an effort to keep their class/spec from getting nerfed in an MMO. "I'm largely immune to your damage, while having the capacity to 1-shot you, OMG LRN2PLAY NEWB LOL!!!"

Landing the Magicka Warden Shalks is more difficult than landing the Stamina counterpart, but I'm still able to hit with them most of the time. Mag DKs can completely ruin my ability to deal effective damage, and some players are really good at avoiding them even without rooting or stunning me, but getting caught in my burst combo isn't something that's as easily avoidable as some people make it sound...and it's still much easier to avoid than Stam Warden burst.

One shotting equally leveled/geared opponents in MMO PvP simply shouldn't be a thing. Period. And of course Stam Wardens aren't the only ones capable of doing this nonsense, they're just one of the classes that have it the easiest, while simultaneously being quite survivable.

Nobody is getting 1 shotted by SA, it's a combo which is not easily pulled off. Every class is capable of doing a 1 shot combo while still having good survivability. So do we start nerfing combos now?

As far as equally leveled and geared opponents that has nothing to do with someone's skill level. If your not aware of your surroundings and don't keep your buffs up then yeah you should die to a 1 shot combo.

I'm not trying to do any mental gymnastics to defend the skill, but I have clearly noted there are many ways to counter it in an effort to help the op. Unfortunately though with nerf thread it's not about learning to get better, it's just about nerfing something because it was on there death recap and that's not how you balance a game.

Thogard

Sanctum74 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics people will go through in an effort to keep their class/spec from getting nerfed in an MMO. "I'm largely immune to your damage, while having the capacity to 1-shot you, OMG LRN2PLAY NEWB LOL!!!"

Landing the Magicka Warden Shalks is more difficult than landing the Stamina counterpart, but I'm still able to hit with them most of the time. Mag DKs can completely ruin my ability to deal effective damage, and some players are really good at avoiding them even without rooting or stunning me, but getting caught in my burst combo isn't something that's as easily avoidable as some people make it sound...and it's still much easier to avoid than Stam Warden burst.

One shotting equally leveled/geared opponents in MMO PvP simply shouldn't be a thing. Period. And of course Stam Wardens aren't the only ones capable of doing this nonsense, they're just one of the classes that have it the easiest, while simultaneously being quite survivable.

Nobody is getting 1 shotted by SA, it's a combo which is not easily pulled off. Every class is capable of doing a 1 shot combo while still having good survivability. So do we start nerfing combos now?

As far as equally leveled and geared opponents that has nothing to do with someone's skill level. If your not aware of your surroundings and don't keep your buffs up then yeah you should die to a 1 shot combo.

I'm not trying to do any mental gymnastics to defend the skill, but I have clearly noted there are many ways to counter it in an effort to help the op. Unfortunately though with nerf thread it's not about learning to get better, it's just about nerfing something because it was on there death recap and that's not how you balance a game.

None of your suggestions for “ways to deal with it” are relevant at the skill level being discussed. They would work great if it was my first week in cyrodil though.

Half of my posts in this thread are reminding people that shalks can be activated around a corner and out of LoS, and then burst right at the tail end of a stampede. They cannot be anticipated when used correctly by the warden. I think this is the fourth time I’ve told you this.

Mihael

Lol some people are so delusional and refuse to see the truth,

Stam warden has so many buffs it has a class Stam heal that allows you to use forward momentum it has Major heroism, it has the cheapest healing ult, it has major brutality that also give stam back major expedition and more, and on top of all this they give them the ability to have one of the best burst combos in game and people still think it's not over performing loool

Also I saw a few people comparing mag dk burst to stam warden burst and you just need to get out of this thread lol

Waffennacht

Mihael wrote: »

Lol some people are so delusional and refuse to see the truth,

Stam warden has so many buffs it has a class Stam heal that allows you to use forward momentum it has Major heroism, it has the cheapest healing ult, it has major brutality that also give stam back major expedition and more, and on top of all this they give them the ability to have one of the best burst combos in game and people still think it's not over performing loool

Also I saw a few people comparing mag dk burst to stam warden burst and you just need to get out of this thread lol

Most people will say not to run Bull + FM fyi.

A spot heal is not specific to warden

You list Trees, Sub Assault, Bull, Shimmering, Bird O Prey, Soothing Spores and only leave out Dive. That's literally every ability even available to Warden.

1 spot heal (lol BoL but ok), 1 AoE (it is the only way a Warden can kill fyi), buffs (that guess what, most classes have access to with better effects added - i.e. Hurricane, or Assassin's Will) a range specific shield (wouldn't say it's OP by any means) and a newly nerfed Trees that does less and costs more.

Sub Assault and Warden abilities make up only 1/3rd of the combo at best. Similar (maybe not via LoS, so I more agree with OP about that) burst results can happen from any Stam class.

The only part I can see is the LoS part, which I believe was OP's original statement

SanTii.92

Don't let this thread distract you from the fact that Shimmering Shield is the skill that is actually truly ridiculous and sets wardens appart from the rest.

ManDraKE

Subterranean Assault is really strong, but i don't see anything OP with it. The problem with wardens is major heroism, is beyond stupid, and if that wasn't enough, they also have the Savage Beast passive /facepalm. The ultimate generation of that class is absurd. Their uptime of major mending is also too high, specially after ZoS nerfed major mending in all the other classes.

Cliff racer being undodgeable is also pretty stupid, it even goes against their own combat design philosophy for doggeable/undoggeable skills.

Sanctum74

Thogard wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics people will go through in an effort to keep their class/spec from getting nerfed in an MMO. "I'm largely immune to your damage, while having the capacity to 1-shot you, OMG LRN2PLAY NEWB LOL!!!"

Landing the Magicka Warden Shalks is more difficult than landing the Stamina counterpart, but I'm still able to hit with them most of the time. Mag DKs can completely ruin my ability to deal effective damage, and some players are really good at avoiding them even without rooting or stunning me, but getting caught in my burst combo isn't something that's as easily avoidable as some people make it sound...and it's still much easier to avoid than Stam Warden burst.

One shotting equally leveled/geared opponents in MMO PvP simply shouldn't be a thing. Period. And of course Stam Wardens aren't the only ones capable of doing this nonsense, they're just one of the classes that have it the easiest, while simultaneously being quite survivable.

Nobody is getting 1 shotted by SA, it's a combo which is not easily pulled off. Every class is capable of doing a 1 shot combo while still having good survivability. So do we start nerfing combos now?

As far as equally leveled and geared opponents that has nothing to do with someone's skill level. If your not aware of your surroundings and don't keep your buffs up then yeah you should die to a 1 shot combo.

I'm not trying to do any mental gymnastics to defend the skill, but I have clearly noted there are many ways to counter it in an effort to help the op. Unfortunately though with nerf thread it's not about learning to get better, it's just about nerfing something because it was on there death recap and that's not how you balance a game.

None of your suggestions for “ways to deal with it” are relevant at the skill level being discussed. They would work great if it was my first week in cyrodil though.

Half of my posts in this thread are reminding people that shalks can be activated around a corner and out of LoS, and then burst right at the tail end of a stampede. They cannot be anticipated when used correctly by the warden. I think this is the fourth time I’ve told you this.

You keep talking about not being relevant information, but then when I give you relevant information on how me and many others counter this against skilled players on a daily basis then somehow it's not relevant? Ummm ok.

Most of this can be mitigated with a good build, buffs, shields, etc. If los is truly an issue then again don't follow them behind the tree or at least be ready for it by having your buffs up and block. Block is not going to mitigate the sa, but it will help with the gap closer and db burst. After all its the combo thats killing you not the sa by itself.

Between buffs and blocking you should be able to mitigate the burst, break free, and go on the offensive. Better yet is to not let your opponent get the los advantage. That's where it comes down to knowing your opponent and learning to anticipate their combos. Try playing the class and it will make it much easier to fight against them.

Even if they did nerf it to require a target then how would that even work? Would it just auto aim after the 3 seconds since we already had to target an enemy? That would make the skill even more powerful.

Or would wardens be required to aim the skill on activation and again when it goes off 3 seconds later? For a class with already long clunky animations and delayed skills this would make the class useless.

Or are you suggesting they nerf combos especially ones that can take advantage of los? Proxy/destro/gap closer is another los combo, but instead it takes out whole groups of people, not just 1 person that didn't have their buffs up and couldn't resist following someone behind the tree. I say nerf trees, problem solved!

Not trying to troll you, just showing you there are proven counters against skilled players should you choose to use them and any change they made would just make wardens either more powerful or useless.

Lexxypwns

sub assault isn't overperforming at all

wheem_ESO

@Sanctum74 You're fundamentally misunderstanding the LOS argument. It's not that he's trying to chase a Stam Warden that's setting up an ambush, it's that said Stam Warden is on the offensive, and triggering the Subterranean Assault before starting the engagement on his/her own terms. Magicka Wardens can do the same thing, except without a gap closer (which makes it much more avoidable if you're paying attention).

And for those who say that Shimmering Shield isn't OP...surely you would support my Magicka Warden having access to a morph that only works on melee skills then, right? I'll face tank you with that + Trees (thanks for the 100% uptime on Major Heroism btw!), until my burst combo eventually downs you.

Sanctum74

wheem_ESO wrote: »

@Sanctum74 You're fundamentally misunderstanding the LOS argument. It's not that he's trying to chase a Stam Warden that's setting up an ambush, it's that said Stam Warden is on the offensive, and triggering the Subterranean Assault before starting the engagement on his/her own terms. Magicka Wardens can do the same thing, except without a gap closer (which makes it much more avoidable if you're paying attention).

And for those who say that Shimmering Shield isn't OP...surely you would support my Magicka Warden having access to a morph that only works on melee skills then, right? I'll face tank you with that + Trees (thanks for the 100% uptime on Major Heroism btw!), until my burst combo eventually downs you.

I completely understand the los arguement which is why I suggested making sure to have a good build, always have your buffs up, be aware of surroundings, and you will be able to withstand the initial burst attempt. That applies to a warden using sa combo, any class using proxy/destro combo, or a nightblade which can los you with cloak in the middle of a field at any time.

Always be prepared or accept that occasionally you might just lose and move on. That's how you get better, by dieing over and over till ya realize what you did wrong and what they did right. It's not like there's wardens all over hiding behind objects waiting to pounce on people. It's just not happening and is not an issue unless you are chasing them behind objects and then expecting them to just politely wait for you instead of setting up their burst.

If los and the fact that it also requires a combo to be used effectively is the only argument to nerf it then sorry that's no reason for a nerf especially without any type of reasonable suggestion on how to fix it.

Now shimmering shields that's a whole different story. Mix that with blood spawn, a decisive weapon and ult regen through the roof!! Oops i meant working as intended xD

Thogard

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics people will go through in an effort to keep their class/spec from getting nerfed in an MMO. "I'm largely immune to your damage, while having the capacity to 1-shot you, OMG LRN2PLAY NEWB LOL!!!"

Landing the Magicka Warden Shalks is more difficult than landing the Stamina counterpart, but I'm still able to hit with them most of the time. Mag DKs can completely ruin my ability to deal effective damage, and some players are really good at avoiding them even without rooting or stunning me, but getting caught in my burst combo isn't something that's as easily avoidable as some people make it sound...and it's still much easier to avoid than Stam Warden burst.

One shotting equally leveled/geared opponents in MMO PvP simply shouldn't be a thing. Period. And of course Stam Wardens aren't the only ones capable of doing this nonsense, they're just one of the classes that have it the easiest, while simultaneously being quite survivable.

Nobody is getting 1 shotted by SA, it's a combo which is not easily pulled off. Every class is capable of doing a 1 shot combo while still having good survivability. So do we start nerfing combos now?

As far as equally leveled and geared opponents that has nothing to do with someone's skill level. If your not aware of your surroundings and don't keep your buffs up then yeah you should die to a 1 shot combo.

I'm not trying to do any mental gymnastics to defend the skill, but I have clearly noted there are many ways to counter it in an effort to help the op. Unfortunately though with nerf thread it's not about learning to get better, it's just about nerfing something because it was on there death recap and that's not how you balance a game.

None of your suggestions for “ways to deal with it” are relevant at the skill level being discussed. They would work great if it was my first week in cyrodil though.

Half of my posts in this thread are reminding people that shalks can be activated around a corner and out of LoS, and then burst right at the tail end of a stampede. They cannot be anticipated when used correctly by the warden. I think this is the fourth time I’ve told you this.

You keep talking about not being relevant information, but then when I give you relevant information on how me and many others counter this against skilled players on a daily basis then somehow it's not relevant? Ummm ok.

Most of this can be mitigated with a good build, buffs, shields, etc. If los is truly an issue then again don't follow them behind the tree or at least be ready for it by having your buffs up and block. Block is not going to mitigate the sa, but it will help with the gap closer and db burst. After all its the combo thats killing you not the sa by itself.

Between buffs and blocking you should be able to mitigate the burst, break free, and go on the offensive. Better yet is to not let your opponent get the los advantage. That's where it comes down to knowing your opponent and learning to anticipate their combos. Try playing the class and it will make it much easier to fight against them.

Even if they did nerf it to require a target then how would that even work? Would it just auto aim after the 3 seconds since we already had to target an enemy? That would make the skill even more powerful.

Or would wardens be required to aim the skill on activation and again when it goes off 3 seconds later? For a class with already long clunky animations and delayed skills this would make the class useless.

Or are you suggesting they nerf combos especially ones that can take advantage of los? Proxy/destro/gap closer is another los combo, but instead it takes out whole groups of people, not just 1 person that didn't have their buffs up and couldn't resist following someone behind the tree. I say nerf trees, problem solved!

Not trying to troll you, just showing you there are proven counters against skilled players should you choose to use them and any change they made would just make wardens either more powerful or useless.

When I say “LoS” I’m not referring to the tactic of breaking line of sight to string out a small Zerg ball.

I’m referring to people you literally can’t see... no line of sight.

Gaggin

Okay I play bgs on my stamden pretty often and use this combo... I'd imagine a death recap from me would look like that one...

The beatles are a really powerful ability, but you cant just look at one skill and scream 'nerf', wardens are hardly the most OP class in pvp when you look at how sorcs and NBs perform bursts. Wardens have *** passives and all but 3-4 of their abilities are ***.

They overnerfed the trees with the heal loss AND cost increase, and using them to stay alive kinda hurt the stamwardens burst. Also, outside of permafrost Stamwardens have ZERO ccs. We only can use DB of smiting and weapon ccs, all blockable and some very easily dodgeable. Magwardens get 1 cc lol. Compare this to dk, sorc and nb. Even Templars get a nice javelin to toss at people.

So trees have been nerfed, that leaves beatles and shimmering shield as their two primary abilities. Shimmering is awesome for what it does, though it has counters and is kinda useless against certain classes. You will need to learn to counter it though, as it makes wardens unkillable if you keep spamming projectiles senselessly. Birds on a stam toon aren't that great, as stammies don't do so well ranged. Their damage is mediocre not very bursty unless you're fighting a rolly polly.

Yes, stamwardens have some awesome burst when lined up right, but there's totally counterplay to it. You can dodge out of the aoe damage or u can block and heal up.

Lexxypwns

Gaggin wrote: »

Okay I play bgs on my stamden pretty often and use this combo... I'd imagine a death recap from me would look like that one...

The beatles are a really powerful ability, but you cant just look at one skill and scream 'nerf', wardens are hardly the most OP class in pvp when you look at how sorcs and NBs perform bursts. Wardens have *** passives and all but 3-4 of their abilities are ***.

They overnerfed the trees with the heal loss AND cost increase, and using them to stay alive kinda hurt the stamwardens burst. Also, outside of permafrost Stamwardens have ZERO ccs. We only can use DB of smiting and weapon ccs, all blockable and some very easily dodgeable. Magwardens get 1 cc lol. Compare this to dk, sorc and nb. Even Templars get a nice javelin to toss at people.

So trees have been nerfed, that leaves beatles and shimmering shield as their two primary abilities. Shimmering is awesome for what it does, though it has counters and is kinda useless against certain classes. You will need to learn to counter it though, as it makes wardens unkillable if you keep spamming projectiles senselessly. Birds on a stam toon aren't that great, as stammies don't do so well ranged. Their damage is mediocre not very bursty unless you're fighting a rolly polly.

Yes, stamwardens have some awesome burst when lined up right, but there's totally counterplay to it. You can dodge out of the aoe damage or u can block and heal up.

He gets it, stamden is trash

Jawasa

@Gaggin Shalk cant be blocked and it's not hard to land at all. Sorc burts is much easier to counter then shalk, stamped and dbos. Tress got a nerf but so did all other defensive ults it cost 35 less then resto ult and 45 less then snb so warden is in no worse position then the other classes. I'd say they are in a better position with major heroism and another built in ult gen.

BroanBeast1215

wheem_ESO wrote: »

It's always interesting to see the mental gymnastics people will go through in an effort to keep their class/spec from getting nerfed in an MMO. "I'm largely immune to your damage, while having the capacity to 1-shot you, OMG LRN2PLAY NEWB LOL!!!"

Landing the Magicka Warden Shalks is more difficult than landing the Stamina counterpart, but I'm still able to hit with them most of the time. Mag DKs can completely ruin my ability to deal effective damage, and some players are really good at avoiding them even without rooting or stunning me, but getting caught in my burst combo isn't something that's as easily avoidable as some people make it sound...and it's still much easier to avoid than Stam Warden burst.

One shotting equally leveled/geared opponents in MMO PvP simply shouldn't be a thing. Period. And of course Stam Wardens aren't the only ones capable of doing this nonsense, they're just one of the classes that have it the easiest, while simultaneously being quite survivable.

I agree. nobody should get 1 shotted- and nobody is.