PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Lord-Otto

^
Templar continuous damage in PvP outdoes sorc. Sorc just has the burst advantage. You don't easily dance around Sweeps with snares involved, and dodge builds certainly hate Templars.

At the moment, all types of builds, tank/heal/dd, actually have similar damage output. The difference is in how the damage gets delivered, and how often. A permablocking DK might not hit you often, but when that 12k Leap comes, it hurts. Just an example.

That is why Frags canNOT be compared to shards. When sorcs "lose" their burst, they lose their role. A Templar without any damage potential will still have amazing group support. Sorcs just aren't very versatile in their combat roles. You go damage, preferrably burst, or you go home.

steussy

Wtf. You just trashed my main a sorc. Thanks. No renewal here. Done with this game.

bardx86

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

In your first picture, @Apherius - players can also get up there easily. It's quite entertaining, actually.

On a more relevant note. This change is expected and in-line with previous nerfs to other skills. They want to make both morphs viable in different ways. Want utility? Go Crystal Blast. Want damage? Go Frags. It was an expected change and it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, really. It got the same treatment as shards(templar-shards) did.

Choose utility or choose damage. Choice is yours. Time to embrace the templar-pain and run Invigorating drain as your main CC :^

can you stop justify nerf by quoting other class nerf ? we can't compare class, while the difference between sorc heal and templar heal is ... i don't have any word for this cause it's to big ... the difference between sorc dd and templar dd is not that big.

If i remember correctly they increased the duration of the shard after they removed the CC ? I'm right ? ( i'm not templar so maybe i'm wrong ) while they didn't even buff Crystal frag cause apparently the " CC " is still there even if he is lock behind a morph that nobody will ever use.

between , do you think a 1 sec cast is what we can call " utility " xDD , the cast time + enemie players using Miat's make this morph even more garbage cause you can just rolldoge it .

from a sorc perspective i see this like a choice between a instant skill less easy to avoid with rolldodge ( even if this still easy with miat -_-) and a ... potatoe , this don't even deserve to be called " morph " it's an abomination. if any of you decide to use this morph ... have fun with the potatoe spam build.

I'm just saying it's happened before - and there is absolutely no reason why frags shouldn't get the same treatment. If I'm not mistaken, they're considering increasing the damage of a frag by a bit - to compensate for the lack of stun.
Well - there's other abilities with cast time that still gets used. You just have to have some awareness.
So you're referring to PvP, that's cool, that I know: So you're saying a skill should have insane damage + stun? When sorcs(good ones, mind you) usually streak you before they launch their combo to get unblocked frags in? Sure it's nice to 7k-frag and stun, that poor stamina sorcerer streaking away to escape. :^

You can also dodge Dark Flare, Clench, Javelin, Stone fist... etcetcetc. It doesnt change a thing.

Did I miss something? Where did they say the damage of a frag was going to be increased?

HoloYoitsu

bardx86 wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

In your first picture, @Apherius - players can also get up there easily. It's quite entertaining, actually.

On a more relevant note. This change is expected and in-line with previous nerfs to other skills. They want to make both morphs viable in different ways. Want utility? Go Crystal Blast. Want damage? Go Frags. It was an expected change and it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, really. It got the same treatment as shards(templar-shards) did.

Choose utility or choose damage. Choice is yours. Time to embrace the templar-pain and run Invigorating drain as your main CC :^

can you stop justify nerf by quoting other class nerf ? we can't compare class, while the difference between sorc heal and templar heal is ... i don't have any word for this cause it's to big ... the difference between sorc dd and templar dd is not that big.

If i remember correctly they increased the duration of the shard after they removed the CC ? I'm right ? ( i'm not templar so maybe i'm wrong ) while they didn't even buff Crystal frag cause apparently the " CC " is still there even if he is lock behind a morph that nobody will ever use.

between , do you think a 1 sec cast is what we can call " utility " xDD , the cast time + enemie players using Miat's make this morph even more garbage cause you can just rolldoge it .

from a sorc perspective i see this like a choice between a instant skill less easy to avoid with rolldodge ( even if this still easy with miat -_-) and a ... potatoe , this don't even deserve to be called " morph " it's an abomination. if any of you decide to use this morph ... have fun with the potatoe spam build.

I'm just saying it's happened before - and there is absolutely no reason why frags shouldn't get the same treatment. If I'm not mistaken, they're considering increasing the damage of a frag by a bit - to compensate for the lack of stun.
Well - there's other abilities with cast time that still gets used. You just have to have some awareness.
So you're referring to PvP, that's cool, that I know: So you're saying a skill should have insane damage + stun? When sorcs(good ones, mind you) usually streak you before they launch their combo to get unblocked frags in? Sure it's nice to 7k-frag and stun, that poor stamina sorcerer streaking away to escape. :^

You can also dodge Dark Flare, Clench, Javelin, Stone fist... etcetcetc. It doesnt change a thing.

Did I miss something? Where did they say the damage of a frag was going to be increased?

Nah, the only thing you missed was the sign on the door that said Welcome to the Twilight Zone.

Feanor

Losing the stun hurts. But I still am puzzled what to drop for Rune Cage - I think after all I'll run with no ranged CC at all and will only use Streak as CC. I could drop Inner Light, losing 5% mag and crit. But still, the change was totally unnecessary. And what's that about a cost increase for Rune Cage then?

It's a typical Wrobel. He just has no clue how to do things right.

Docmandu

Zer0oo wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Frags loosing the CC is a good change imho.. it was very powerful.. and sorc still has streak/BoL to stun... though I agree with most that Crystal Blast still won't be used.. maybe it should be a Crystal Frags copy that still gives CC but looses the cheaper cost and extra damage on proc. Then it would be a choice between CC or higher burst.

Streak and BoL have high cost(3k mag) and a cost increase(5k after first use) so you really have to be careful to use them as cc and they do not fit so well into range combat of sorcs. (Don't get me wrong they work well as cc but more as an backup option if you can't cc your opponent normally e.g dodge roll spammers) Taking off the cc of cfrags and sorcs will lose alot of pressure in pvp since enemies now can instant heal after getting hit instead of needing to cc break first(less counter play from enemies needed as long as it doesn't one shot they can instantly heal up no blocking and dodging needed). Sorcs need to give up another skill to slot a real cc and the burst combo will now be harder to get off in open field pvp(you have to get another skill in before you use your combo).

Using streak means a sorc still has a 21 range CC that he likely already has on his quickbar, so nothing to give up.. and if 21 range can't cut it, make room for rune prison which is an instant 41 range stun.

BTW: streak high cost? You don't spam it if you use it for stunning.. and it's actually cheaper (3780) than something like Templar's Javelin (4050), DK's stonefist (4050), NB's Teleport Strike (4050), ... see the pattern? Because of the cost increase added when spamming the spell, it actually was made cheaper on first use... there's no reason to "spam" a stun anyway.

But.. would have preferred they made Crystal Blast into the lower damage CC version of it. Only new people use Crystal Blast, to level up the skill or to find out it's garbage. Don't think that will change with this patch.

Checkmath

I actually see some kind of solution for the problem of crystal frags and crystal blast.
First of, crystal frags were fine as they are. Stun or not, they are a good skill and thats why they are chosen instead of crystal blast. If the stun removel persists, sorcs actually need to slot rune prison to get their burst potential back.
Ok first, crystal frag is fine (with or without stun).
To make crystal blast a more interesting choice as wrobel prefers to say, it needs to be updated. First point is the increase of its damage area. It should have a radius compared to magicka detonation. Second there are three options.
1. do the same as with crystal frag, give it a chance to instant cast it.
2. significantly increasy its damage, so the sorc has to choose between an amazing single target damage ability or an awesome aoe skill.
3. My favourite option: give it the same additional damage as magicka detonation. The more targets get hit, the more damage it does. This would be awesome in pve mobs fights. Still the cast time would persist. This would be a punishement for hardcasting on single targets. Let those sorcs blow up enemies with crystal blast, they should drop those bombs on enemy hords. Actually this would be one of few solutions to counter deto-destro-ball-groups in cyrodiil. Let some sorcs cast that bomb together on those ball groups and they will regret the stick together that much.
would appreciate some good changes to that skill and its morphs.

Docmandu

dpencil1 wrote: »

The thing about Frags was that if you were able to land it on a non-dodging non-blocking opponent just before Curse went off, and that got them low enough for Endless Fury to proc, they would be unable to block those because of the CC from Frags. If you did the same combo with what is proposed, they could just block or dodge all/any of it.

So it forces the use of Rune Prison / Streak / Dawnbreaker preemptively. I tested breaking free with a buddy and Frags usually will land before the player can block, but it's very close, so your timing has to be spot on.

Just to add... Curse is non-blockable.. that was changed a while ago..

Feanor

Btw, all those people saying frags is amazing: try land one that isn't dodged or blocked these days. Happens only on targets that are running away, are cc'ed, out of stam or engaged.

quake89

If you really are planning to go ahead with removing Stun from frags then please reverse the increased cost of rune cage and revert the 10% damage nerf to frags.

Furthermore no one will run blast with a stun attached the problem with that skill is the cast time.

Checkmath

Exactly, the cast time is the problem. Thats why they need to make the cast time worth the skill. Increased radius and more damage (preferably similar to the magickadetonation) would make the skill more likely to take, since there would be actually some situations, where it is better than crystal frags (pve mobfights, there it would be an amazing aoe skill and as an anti ballgroup skill to blow up those groups from far away).

Zer0oo

Docmandu wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Frags loosing the CC is a good change imho.. it was very powerful.. and sorc still has streak/BoL to stun... though I agree with most that Crystal Blast still won't be used.. maybe it should be a Crystal Frags copy that still gives CC but looses the cheaper cost and extra damage on proc. Then it would be a choice between CC or higher burst.

Streak and BoL have high cost(3k mag) and a cost increase(5k after first use) so you really have to be careful to use them as cc and they do not fit so well into range combat of sorcs. (Don't get me wrong they work well as cc but more as an backup option if you can't cc your opponent normally e.g dodge roll spammers) Taking off the cc of cfrags and sorcs will lose alot of pressure in pvp since enemies now can instant heal after getting hit instead of needing to cc break first(less counter play from enemies needed as long as it doesn't one shot they can instantly heal up no blocking and dodging needed). Sorcs need to give up another skill to slot a real cc and the burst combo will now be harder to get off in open field pvp(you have to get another skill in before you use your combo).

Using streak means a sorc still has a 21 range CC that he likely already has on his quickbar, so nothing to give up.. and if 21 range can't cut it, make room for rune prison which is an instant 41 range stun.

BTW: streak high cost? You don't spam it if you use it for stunning.. and it's actually cheaper (3780) than something like Templar's Javelin (4050), DK's stonefist (4050), NB's Teleport Strike (4050), ... see the pattern? Because of the cost increase added when spamming the spell, it actually was made cheaper on first use... there's no reason to "spam" a stun anyway.

But.. would have preferred they made Crystal Blast into the lower damage CC version of it. Only new people use Crystal Blast, to level up the skill or to find out it's garbage. Don't think that will change with this patch.

It is only 270 magica cheaper and will get a cost increase.What happens when someone blocks the cc? What happens if you need streak for kiting. What happens if you really don't want to be at the position streak puts you in? Do you play a sorc?(I think i remember your name on pc eu as zerg surfing ice root spamming templer)

The nerf of the cfrags will hurt quite alot in open world pvp since it was the cc that made cfrags so dangerous that you want to block or dodge them.

Aedaryl

Cast time is not viable in PvP.

That's what make pets not viable, like crystal blast, and others abilities.

Derra

Docmandu wrote: »

Using streak means a sorc still has a 21 range CC that he likely already has on his quickbar, so nothing to give up.. and if 21 range can't cut it, make room for rune prison which is an instant 41 range stun.

Streak has 15m range.

Also it´s by no means a vaible stun as it´s 1.5s stun duration pretty much sets the stun ad absurdum. You get between 0.2 and 0.4s advantage.
In 90% of the cases when someone streakstuns you it´s better to just let it run out. I´m always thankful for free stamina.

BohnT

How about a change to battle spirit.
All skills with a cast time have reduced cast time (50%) but to compensate the damage is reduced by 35% to make snipe spam etc less bursty.

Checkmath

Thats a total different story to implement. Battlespirit mostly changes some numbers, cuts them in half which is simple to program. Reducing cast times is much harder, since animations must been changed and that would be too much stuff for ZoS.

SodanTok

Feanor wrote: »

Btw, all those people saying frags is amazing: try land one that isn't dodged or blocked these days. Happens only on targets that are running away, are cc'ed, out of stam or engaged.

It still amuses me how is ZoS trying to balance these abilities when environment on Miat (PC) and nonMiat (console, internal ZoS test server) is so different.

Apherius

FlamingBeard wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

In your first picture, @Apherius - players can also get up there easily. It's quite entertaining, actually.

On a more relevant note. This change is expected and in-line with previous nerfs to other skills. They want to make both morphs viable in different ways. Want utility? Go Crystal Blast. Want damage? Go Frags. It was an expected change and it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, really. It got the same treatment as shards(templar-shards) did.

Choose utility or choose damage. Choice is yours. Time to embrace the templar-pain and run Invigorating drain as your main CC :^

can you stop justify nerf by quoting other class nerf ? we can't compare class, while the difference between sorc heal and templar heal is ... i don't have any word for this cause it's to big ... the difference between sorc dd and templar dd is not that big.

If i remember correctly they increased the duration of the shard after they removed the CC ? I'm right ? ( i'm not templar so maybe i'm wrong ) while they didn't even buff Crystal frag cause apparently the " CC " is still there even if he is lock behind a morph that nobody will ever use.

between , do you think a 1 sec cast is what we can call " utility " xDD , the cast time + enemie players using Miat's make this morph even more garbage cause you can just rolldoge it .

from a sorc perspective i see this like a choice between a instant skill less easy to avoid with rolldodge ( even if this still easy with miat -_-) and a ... potatoe , this don't even deserve to be called " morph " it's an abomination. if any of you decide to use this morph ... have fun with the potatoe spam build.

I'm sorry lol

Did you just compare TEMPLAR damage to Sorcerer?

Magicka Templar has not only some of the worst damage of all magicka classes in PvE, but its PvP damage is heavily hindered by the fact that most classes (including Sorcerers) can dance around Templars without ever getting hit by a single Puncturing Sweep, and Ball of Lightning often completely prevents BOTH Templar stuns (Aurora Javelin and Toppling Charge) from ever reaching a Sorcerer, let alone creating enough of a window to burst their shield stacks down and maintain enough pressue to execute before another Ball of Lightning stuns that Templar.

ah no , PVE perspective , i play PVP and PVE so sometimes i forgot to explain that in " X " sentence i talk about PVE and " Y " sentence i talk about PVP.

Derra

SodanTok wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Btw, all those people saying frags is amazing: try land one that isn't dodged or blocked these days. Happens only on targets that are running away, are cc'ed, out of stam or engaged.

It still amuses me how is ZoS trying to balance these abilities when environment on Miat (PC) and nonMiat (console, internal ZoS test server) is so different.

It amazes me that miats is still in the game tbh.

Lord-Otto

After I placed my DoTs, I can put in a LA+Clench and a heavy lightning in my PvE rotation.
I wouldn't be opposed to replacing Clench with Crystal Blast for AoE and Minor Prophecy. If Blast has enough damage, it is too weak right now. I don't need a CC on it. Give it the same damage as Frags, but as an AoE. Compensate with a moderate cast time.
Balance it right and you would have a choice between single-target and AoE dps. Leave Frags for PvP untouched.

Zer0oo

If they want to make cblast a thing they need to make it a proc like cfrag.(instant cast and reduced cost)

• cblast should deal aoe damage(maybe even scale it with the more it its the more damage it does if it hits more than 2 it deals additional 10% per enemy hit) but not cc
  
• cfrag should deal high single target damage but also cc
  

That way you have a real choice between an good aoe but you have to give up a cc and a high burst skill with a cc

Derra

It´s actually funny.

All it would have taken for cblast to be considered worth using would have been the same procchance frags had.

pieratsos

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

In your first picture, @Apherius - players can also get up there easily. It's quite entertaining, actually.

On a more relevant note. This change is expected and in-line with previous nerfs to other skills. They want to make both morphs viable in different ways. Want utility? Go Crystal Blast. Want damage? Go Frags. It was an expected change and it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, really. It got the same treatment as shards(templar-shards) did.

Choose utility or choose damage. Choice is yours. Time to embrace the templar-pain and run Invigorating drain as your main CC :^

Shards shouldnt lose the cc but its still not comparable to frags. Shards lost the cc but the other mechanics of the skill were buffed to compensate. Doesnt mean it was a good change but at least it had some logic behind it and thats what they chose to do. Frags was double nerfed. Not buffed to compensate for the nerf. First they nerfed its dmg and now they removed its cc. Not the same situation at all.

Also tempars lost the cc on shards but they still have the cc on toppling. A skill they still use, its part of their rotation and helps with their combo. May not be the best but it helps. Same how frags work. Not the best cc but its part of ur rotation and helps with ur combo. Sorcs dont have any other cc built in the abilities they already use. Its only streak. But thats more of a defensive cc to get people off you. Not an offensive cc. It lasts like 1 second, its hard to combo it with abilties because by the time u turn back to use anything else the cc is already over and it also gets exponentially more expensive the more you use it.

The only other class that has the problem of having to slot a skill just for cc purposes is DK and thats one of the main issues the class has. They dont have enough slots for all their important abilities.

Sorcs have many issues but frag is literally the only ability they shouldnt touch. Its a powerful skill with a lot of counters and its one of the few skills left in the game that seperates good players from bad and promotes smart gameplay. And instead of addressing the actual issues of the class like shieldstacking they choose to nerf frag again and again just to make the useless morph relevant. A morph that people have been screaming for years to completely rework it for stam sorcs or make it comparable with frags. And instead of doing that, they buff its dmg again and again when thats not even the issue with the skill.

Lord-Otto

Derra wrote: »

It´s actually funny.

All it would have taken for cblast to be considered worth using would have been the same procchance frags had.

I still wouldn't take it in PvP. And in PvE, Force Pulse + Blast proc would burn through your resources way faster than heavy lightning + Clench or whatever.
If this was pre-Nerfpokalypse... I mean, Morrowind, we would be game. Can't wait for the volcano to burn Morrowind and its changes.

OdinForge

If frag loses it's stun it should get a considerable damage increase, and Miat's add-on needs to vanish from this game.

What a joke.

steussy

Increase proc chance of instant frag if you go through with this terrible idea then.

Apherius

steussy wrote: »

Increase proc chance of instant frag if you go through with this terrible idea then.

this would be an awesome idea !


Btw i see that a lot of person suggest a buff of the Crystal shard to compensate the lost of the CC . But this won't solve the problem, cause crystal blast would stay useless, and in this case wrobel will try to fix this again in one/two year by nerfing the crystal frag again ... so we have the choice ,either we try to get a little buff for our crystal shard to compensate the lost of the CC , eitheir we try to make the second morph useful without nerf the first . or both.

ak_pvp

Lord-Otto wrote: »

^
Templar continuous damage in PvP outdoes sorc. Sorc just has the burst advantage. You don't easily dance around Sweeps with snares involved, and dodge builds certainly hate Templars.

At the moment, all types of builds, tank/heal/dd, actually have similar damage output. The difference is in how the damage gets delivered, and how often. A permablocking DK might not hit you often, but when that 12k Leap comes, it hurts. Just an example.

That is why Frags canNOT be compared to shards. When sorcs "lose" their burst, they lose their role. A Templar without any damage potential will still have amazing group support. Sorcs just aren't very versatile in their combat roles. You go damage, preferrably burst, or you go home.

Don't condone frags change.

Sorc still has good burst, its only the CC that changes. Also now one of the best group supports, outclassing DK on CC and negates too.

HoloYoitsu

Docmandu wrote: »

Zer0oo wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Frags loosing the CC is a good change imho.. it was very powerful.. and sorc still has streak/BoL to stun... though I agree with most that Crystal Blast still won't be used.. maybe it should be a Crystal Frags copy that still gives CC but looses the cheaper cost and extra damage on proc. Then it would be a choice between CC or higher burst.

Streak and BoL have high cost(3k mag) and a cost increase(5k after first use) so you really have to be careful to use them as cc and they do not fit so well into range combat of sorcs. (Don't get me wrong they work well as cc but more as an backup option if you can't cc your opponent normally e.g dodge roll spammers) Taking off the cc of cfrags and sorcs will lose alot of pressure in pvp since enemies now can instant heal after getting hit instead of needing to cc break first(less counter play from enemies needed as long as it doesn't one shot they can instantly heal up no blocking and dodging needed). Sorcs need to give up another skill to slot a real cc and the burst combo will now be harder to get off in open field pvp(you have to get another skill in before you use your combo).

Using streak means a sorc still has a 21 range CC that he likely already has on his quickbar, so nothing to give up.. and if 21 range can't cut it, make room for rune prison which is an instant 41 range stun.

BTW: streak high cost? You don't spam it if you use it for stunning.. and it's actually cheaper (3780) than something like Templar's Javelin (4050), DK's stonefist (4050), NB's Teleport Strike (4050), ... see the pattern? Because of the cost increase added when spamming the spell, it actually was made cheaper on first use... there's no reason to "spam" a stun anyway.

But.. would have preferred they made Crystal Blast into the lower damage CC version of it. Only new people use Crystal Blast, to level up the skill or to find out it's garbage. Don't think that will change with this patch.

Was that a joke? Streak is 15m range with a 1.5 sec stun. Using streak as primary CC means needing to swap to back bar to streak, then instantly swap to front bar while doing a 180 with the camera to retarget. Wep swap takes 1 GCD so now you are left with 0.5 sec to follow up. It's functional in ideal conditions, by it is not in any way comparable to 41m range 2.5 sec stun from frags that requires no bar swap/camera play dancing to use.

There's a number of other drawbacks: if I'm rooted I can only blink in the direction I'm facing unless I first dodge it or use a handful of skills that reorient your toon inside roots. So if streak is to be my only CC, it's fair that t should be hard counterable by every root in the game? Not only that, but if I'm in a confined space like on a wall or a rock, ect, I can't always use streak as CC because I'll go flying off a cliff!

FYI, bolt escape was never "made cheaper on first use" because of the cost increase. The cost increase was added 3 months after launch. Later bolt escape got pinned with another 10% cost increase when the cost reduction passive was removed and turned into spell dmg. And then it turned into an infinite stacking increase in IC. The reason for the initial design was sorc was envisioned as a ranged kiting class.

"No reason to spam a stun"? Excuse me? It's the class's primary mobility tool.

PS: Rune Prison is not an instant CC, if it was you wouldn't have to cast it before Frags (which has a travel time) in order for it to CC the target in time!

KramUzibra

Feanor wrote: »

Losing the stun hurts. But I still am puzzled what to drop for Rune Cage - I think after all I'll run with no ranged CC at all and will only use Streak as CC. I could drop Inner Light, losing 5% mag and crit. But still, the change was totally unnecessary. And what's that about a cost increase for Rune Cage then?

It's a typical Wrobel. He just has no clue how to do things right.

No some sort of balance was necessary for sorcs we will just have to wait and see if this was the right change.