PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

xiZeroPointix

I feel like its use crystal blast or no frags at all

Anethum

Absolutly freaking unfair changes.
Magicka sorcerers are too strong now already.
I played a lot on sorcerer, and vs sorcerers on different classes and builds.
And can say that they already stongest now.
Shielding as hell, very bursting, very mobile, tons of cc, range.
And the more max magickathey have - more stronger both in defence and in damage they become...
Good sorcerer is most unkillable in cyrodiil last 2 patches...before during at least 2 years was one of the hardest 2 with stamina dk's too.

And now, when they are op already, they will have Rune prison which stun and...tadamm...Asylum destro staff which make forse pulse (most effective for sorcerers as spam skill because of class specifics) stronger because of all 3 status effects.
Wtf?

Play your game @Wrobel or talk with most experienced players (for example streamers: Fengrush, Blobsky, Kodi, Hexyseso, Gilliamtherogue, Alkast with his coreteam in guild Hodor etc) to get adequate feedback what to do for balance and make gameplay more interesting, before they all left to play and stream another games like Sypher for example...

xiZeroPointix

Rune cage I am not sure about...console players dont get privileged access to new content for testing...our fate is in the hands of youtube streamers. Let alone having the tools needed to do proper testing.

Apherius

diplomatt wrote: »

Absolutly freaking unfair changes.
Magicka sorcerers are too strong now already.
I played a lot on sorcerer, and vs sorcerers on different classes and builds.
And can say that they already stongest now.
Shielding as hell, very bursting, very mobile, tons of cc, range.
And the more max magickathey have - more stronger both in defence and in damage they become...
Good sorcerer is most unkillable in cyrodiil last 2 patches...before during at least 2 years was one of the hardest 2 with stamina dk's too.

And now, when they are op already, they will have Rune prison which stun and...tadamm...Asylum destro staff which make forse pulse (most effective for sorcerers as spam skill because of class specifics) stronger because of all 3 status effects.
Wtf?

Play your game @Wrobel or talk with most experienced players (for example streamers: Fengrush, Blobsky, Kodi, Hexyseso, Gilliamtherogue, Alkast with his coreteam in guild Hodor etc) to get adequate feedback what to do for balance and make gameplay more interesting, before they all left to play and stream another games like Sypher for example...

Oh someone who didn't read the Wrobel comment.

We lost the Free frag CC , we will be obblige to slot rune cage and this one will cost more magicka cause 1 nerf wasn't enough ... either we will lost a defense skill , or a damage skill so ...

FriedEggSandwich

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

We’d like to touch on a couple things we’re looking to iterate on for this class. First, some of you have mentioned that the Summon Charged Atronach AoE can occasionally miss targets that are right next to it. To address this, we plan to change the AoE pattern to a single circle instead of 5 small circles. We’ve also seen reports of an issue with Overload where the bound armor can persist even when it’s not on your bar; we’re investigating this issue.

Lastly, we’ve seen some of you mention that the new Rune Prison is quite powerful in PVP - we’re looking at adjusting the cost to help counter this. In addition, we’ve been evaluating the Crystal Shard skill line and its morphs and are planning to make some adjustments. The base stun component is going to be removed from the ability and instead placed on the Crystal Blast morph. This will make the choice between Crystal Fragments and Crystal Blast much more interesting as you are choosing between a CC and AoE damage vs. increased burst damage.

Thanks for taking the time to hop on the PTS and test out the changes so far!

What the hell do you think you're doing? ffs

Apherius

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

We’d like to touch on a couple things we’re looking to iterate on for this class. First, some of you have mentioned that the Summon Charged Atronach AoE can occasionally miss targets that are right next to it. To address this, we plan to change the AoE pattern to a single circle instead of 5 small circles. We’ve also seen reports of an issue with Overload where the bound armor can persist even when it’s not on your bar; we’re investigating this issue.

Lastly, we’ve seen some of you mention that the new Rune Prison is quite powerful in PVP - we’re looking at adjusting the cost to help counter this. In addition, we’ve been evaluating the Crystal Shard skill line and its morphs and are planning to make some adjustments. The base stun component is going to be removed from the ability and instead placed on the Crystal Blast morph. This will make the choice between Crystal Fragments and Crystal Blast much more interesting as you are choosing between a CC and AoE damage vs. increased burst damage.

Thanks for taking the time to hop on the PTS and test out the changes so far!

What the hell do you think you're doing? ffs

Wrobel want us to spam Crystal blast like potatoe , Op gameplay.

ToRelax

Since I'm probably going to use Rune Cage anyway, I don't care that much... the increased cost may hurt, but okay, it was really a very cheap skill. I don't quite see how this is going to make the choice any more interesting though... The problem with Crystal Blast isn't that you can't slot Fragments with it but that's it's not a very good skill in the first place. x)

PS: It's also not nice for all those who intended to use Fragments as their main CC ofc.

Anethum

Apherius wrote: »

Oh someone who didn't read the Wrobel comment.

We lost the Free frag CC , we will be obblige to slot rune cage and this one will cost more magicka cause 1 nerf wasn't enough ... either we will lost a defense skill , or a damage skill so ...

I've read and I say this not as sorcerer or not, but as player who have all classes. I want balance and with cc from crystals or not sorcerers are too op. If u want too feel it try to kill experienced sorcerer on every class. U will be dissapoined of how crap it is. I don't care if sorcerer is only one your dream and zone of comfort, we should care of balance, not about our "favourite class".

ak_pvp

Inb4 nerf reverted, buff given.

CoughCurseCough.

Just undo all this patches sorc changes pls. No unblockable stun (Note, I say stun, not CC, I am aware it is unblockable now) and give frags its stun back.

Nerf shield stack.

Joy_Division

I think I'm going to stop giving feedback as to what skills are bad because Wrobel believes the solution is to make the skills that are good bad such that choices are appealing.

Or I will resort to childish reverse psychology and claim the skills I like and use are unappealing such that they don;t get nerfed in future patches.

HoloYoitsu

ZOS_Wrobel wrote: »

We’d like to touch on a couple things we’re looking to iterate on for this class. First, some of you have mentioned that the Summon Charged Atronach AoE can occasionally miss targets that are right next to it. To address this, we plan to change the AoE pattern to a single circle instead of 5 small circles. We’ve also seen reports of an issue with Overload where the bound armor can persist even when it’s not on your bar; we’re investigating this issue.

Lastly, we’ve seen some of you mention that the new Rune Prison is quite powerful in PVP - we’re looking at adjusting the cost to help counter this. In addition, we’ve been evaluating the Crystal Shard skill line and its morphs and are planning to make some adjustments. The base stun component is going to be removed from the ability and instead placed on the Crystal Blast morph. This will make the choice between Crystal Fragments and Crystal Blast much more interesting as you are choosing between a CC and AoE damage vs. increased burst damage.

Thanks for taking the time to hop on the PTS and test out the changes so far!

@ZOS_Wrobel Removing the stun on Frags and limiting it to only the Crystal Blast morph does nothing but cripple Sorc as a class. Not to be rude, but I will be very blunt here: neither aspect of the reasoning you presented makes any sense whatever in practice.

• Counterbalancing the Rune Prison change: Yes the new version you put on PTS is powerful, but that does not in any way justify removing the core CC from Frags. Let's do a quick thought experiment, with the Frags CC removed, is there any change in any way, shape or form of how you could combo Rune Prison with the Sorc burst rotation? No, there is none at all, because using Rune Prison in that rotation is predicated on stunning the target before Frags hits. That means that leaving the Frags stun in place does not make Rune Prison more powerful - if anything it makes it require more skill to pull off since you have to make sure not to CC the target with Frags before using Rune Prison.
  
  I would also like to make an aside and point out that the Rune Prison animation (doesn't matter if you animation cancel it) causes a significant delay between using the skill and the actual CC happening - unlike DK Fossilize which is instantaneous. This makes it impossible to perfectly sync the Rune Prison CC with a Frags hit; there's enough of a delay between the two for the target to break free from what I've seen on PTS. [Brief edit: from more testing on PTS, in optimal conditions frags can be sync'd to land as the CC break animation is finishing but seemingly before the target is able to block/dodge it. In practice, the normal Cyrodiil lag will probably make this combo not completely reliable vs people who know to CC break instantly.]
  
  The answer to any stance using the Rune Prison change to justify removing Frag's CC is: just don't touch either and leave them both as they are on live.
  
• Second, making the morph choice "interesting": Your proposed change fails at this in multiple ways. Yes people have been asking for years for Crystal Blast to be made in some way a viable morph, but nerfing Frags into the ground is not how to go about that. Frags as a skill is perfectly fine, I don't believe there have been any substantive calls to 'nerf' it in the 3.5 some years the game's been out. The CC component of all things, is most assuredly not an aspect of the skill that could be considered 'over performing' (certainly not with Miat's addon helping everyone Matrix dodge most Frags).
  
  So right there we reach a conundrum; on what grounds do you justify an extreme nerf to a skill that no one is complaining about when the only reason you articulate for the change is "we want to make the choice more interesting"? The only way I can interpret "interesting" in this context is in reference to increasing the tradeoff between the two morphs by nerfing the popular one. Okay, so I've been forced to make a more bitter choice when I morph the skill, but now that I've done that, how has my gameplay experience been improved in anyway if I now use the new Crystal Blast compared to the old Crystal Blast? Well, it hasn't changed one bit! You must admit then that this change you are proposing does literally nothing to, key word, improve Crystal Blast. It is simply punishing the entire class for using the superior morph by now limiting them to two inferior choices.

You might be thinking to yourself, "well it's the same as removing the CC from Wrecking Blow and only leaving it on Dizzying Swing", but the two cases are not at all comparable. In the case of Wrecking Blow/Dizzying Swing, both have cast times and both are uninterruptable - the trade off is only on the empower vs CC. The proposed Frags change on the other hand is divided between being locked behind an interruptable cast time vs having procs for no cast time. Long story short, interruptable cast time frags is unusable so every single sorc will still just use Frags and your stated goal of getting more people to choose Crystal Blast remains unfulfilled. Unless both morphs have the ability to proc instant casts, no one will ever use Crystal Blast. The AoE component you've also touted has always been a non factor in the choice.

ak_pvp

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think I'm going to stop giving feedback as to what skills are bad because Wrobel believes the solution is to make the skills that are good bad such that choices are appealing.

Or I will resort to childish reverse psychology and claim the skills I like and use are unappealing such that they don;t get nerfed in future patches.

Maybe if we say nerf frags he'll buff them?

wtf I love crystal blast now.

FriedEggSandwich

@HoloYoitsu I'm genuinely glad you're here.

Ankael07

So what happened in this patch was 2 skills lost its utility (rune cage not being broken with DOTs and CF stun) and people still think sorcerers were buffed somehow.
Similar thing happened with Curse skill before when you gave us a very situational (if not useless) buff all the while making people think its something that makes sorcerers OP.

xaraan

Good change on Frags. Giving a cast time skill a (good) chance for cheaper/instant cast that has a knock down has been a bit OP vs some other abilities from other classes. It will still be good enough to be the version most will run (except for that one guy that does nothing bug crystal blast already).

ak_pvp

Crystal blast:

Instacast: Fire up a blast of crystal around you to knock back all enemies infront/within Xm of you back Ym. Every time you are hit have a 35% chance to increase knockback Zm and reduce cost by 50%.

Give sorcs a cheap way to build range and a different defensive method. That way, they can knock back attackers, drop mines, or knock back and streak, lowering chance of gapclosing.

Maybe even make it a dot, that way chasers can't hop on a mount and hunt you.

Anne_Firehawk

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think I'm going to stop giving feedback as to what skills are bad because Wrobel believes the solution is to make the skills that are good bad such that choices are appealing.

Or I will resort to childish reverse psychology and claim the skills I like and use are unappealing such that they don;t get nerfed in future patches.

Read the DK Thread xD People wanted Stonefist to be viable and their solution is to nerf Petrify, *** joke.

ak_pvp

Ankael07 wrote: »

So what happened in this patch was 2 skills lost its utility (rune cage not being broken with DOTs and CF stun) and people still think sorcerers were buffed somehow.
Similar thing happened with Curse skill before when you gave us a very situational (if not useless) buff all the while making people think its something that makes sorcerers OP.

Nah, the curse buff was weird in that it was meant to be a nerf, but instead of reverting it, it just made it an anti NB device.

Sorcs main issue is it has all the points on the Damage/survive/mobility scale, instead of two like most classes.
DK: Tanky, high burst, but slower than a turtle who outran a chromosome.
NB: good burst, good mobility. Lower survivability. Much squish.
Templar: OK damage, good survivability, low movement.

Warden is the only other class with all 3. Aside from heal spam, wardens survivability needs to be built into with sacrifices.

Joy_Division

And all this time, I never realized Hskbret was Wrobel on PC NA,

Minno

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think I'm going to stop giving feedback as to what skills are bad because Wrobel believes the solution is to make the skills that are good bad such that choices are appealing.

Or I will resort to childish reverse psychology and claim the skills I like and use are unappealing such that they don;t get nerfed in future patches.

Sorc execute passive is too low for competitive PvP. It probably needs a major defile debuff or another snare.

RinaldoGandolphi

Why would your change Crystal Frags like this wha......

Forget it............

BohnT

Everyone running a sorc knows that you can totally get by without the stun on crystal frags especially with the changes to Rune prison.

Most of the time you wouldn't even hit someone with the frag stun because almost every enemy you encounter uses Miat.
The change will be a nerf yes but it will translate into a increase in success for every average sorc.

As you don't have a cc with frags anymore you will use rune prison right before you dish out that frag into curse explosion and mage's wrath proc.
I see so many sorcs running around using frags on cooldown and failing miserably. It's like trying to hit Assassin's will without a cc before it won't work.
Now there is a good cc so you definitely don't need another cc as you can't double cc someone. (Of course everything's possible in lag )

I know many people will disagree but please sit down for 10 minutes, think about it and then post in this thread again.

And yes remove the stun from incap it's not needed!!

Derra

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Why would your change Crystal Frags like this wha......

Forget it............

#teamamerica #maga is all i can think off reading the changes being made.

Nerfing the popoular skill/moph choice to make the unpopular choice more appealing is probably the worst balancing decision i´ve seen in eso so far and it will for any case it´s done not achieve it´s intended goal.

The unpopular choices for morphs and skills are not overlooked because their alternative is so much superiour but because the skills themself are fundamentally flawed in their design.
Nobody will use an interruptable casttime skill ever. It´s not going to happen.

Anyways i´ll play my nb or templar once my sorc has the title/colour i want.

xiZeroPointix

He did mention a burst damage increase or an aoe cc implying that whilst taking away the stun...will possibly recieve a damage boost to frags? Need some clarification plz

Joy_Division

BohnT wrote: »

Everyone running a sorc knows that you can totally get by without the stun on crystal frags especially with the changes to Rune prison.

Most of the time you wouldn't even hit someone with the frag stun because almost every enemy you encounter uses Miat.
The change will be a nerf yes but it will translate into a increase in success for every average sorc.

As you don't have a cc with frags anymore you will use rune prison right before you dish out that frag into curse explosion and mage's wrath proc.
I see so many sorcs running around using frags on cooldown and failing miserably. It's like trying to hit Assassin's will without a cc before it won't work.
Now there is a good cc so you definitely don't need another cc as you can't double cc someone. (Of course everything's possible in lag )

I know many people will disagree but please sit down for 10 minutes, think about it and then post in this thread again.

And yes remove the stun from incap it's not needed!!

That's not the point.

Can a sorc still do their thing and have success? Yeah. But it's a slap in the face to those people whose main is a sorc. It's a class defining skill. One that worked and everyone used. It was strong, but had many counters. It's precisely the type of skills the game needs more of, not less. The nerf was not necessary. Hell, the 10% less damage nerf from the Morrowind patch was also unnecessary and should be reverted.

You come in this thread and tell people not to worry about the nerf because there's something else they can do - you just sound like one of the many people who spam nerf sorcs threads. If it was your class defining skill getting nerfed, you and everybody else telling sorcs "it ain't too bad, deal with it" would NOT just lie down and accept it. Nobody likes nerfs .... except when they happen to someone else's class, then they somehow are understandable and nothing to get worked over about.

More than that, the whole method of nerfing skills we actually use to make the ones we don;t more "appealing" is an absolute asinine way to go about balancing or "improving" a game. Such a procedure should be heartily discouraged and unambiguously denounced. The game will not get better and it's only a matter of time before it's your class that is "balanced" by making the sucky morph the standard.

Being stuck with sucky morphs is why people quit playing to classes and quit playing ESO. For years I put up with loadscreens, lag, bugs, questionable mechanics, apathetic PvP devs, guilds quitting, friends leaving, etc., because at the end of the day, those classes I chose to play and invest my time in were fun, could do some cool things, and sometimes did awesome things that made me feel powerful. Much of this is already gone and any further slippage down the precipice of homogeneity, bad skills, and boring gameplay should be resisted rather than encouraged.

grannas211

Please don't do this to frags. You could make it do zero damage and heal the enemy and no one is gonna use crystal blast. Makes no sense to nerf something to use the garbage morph instead of just buffing the garbage morph in the first place.

grannas211

Delete. Double post.

Izaki

Just give the *** instant cast to both morphs already. One of them stuns the other increases the proc damage by 20%. DONE. No need to put a crappy AoE (something that Sorcs already have a lot of) into a skill that doesn't synergize with it at all.

And I kinda laughed at the part where "choice between more damage and instant cast and stun with an AoE". What's the point of adding a stun to an ability that everyone's going to see coming from a mile away?

Just give this skill the Uppercut treatment. Both morphs and the base skill can all be instant cast when proc'ed. One stuns, the other does 20% more damage (not 10%).

I frankly, can't believe that skills that have been great since the begining of the game are being nerfed for no apparent reason, just to force us to use other abilities. In this case its: "We don't need a stun since Frags stuns. - Alright thanks for the feedback, we'll take away the stun so that you can use this ability we just buffed". Like seriously. This is just stupid.

HoloYoitsu

BohnT wrote: »

Everyone running a sorc knows that you can totally get by without the stun on crystal frags especially with the changes to Rune prison.

Most of the time you wouldn't even hit someone with the frag stun because almost every enemy you encounter uses Miat.
The change will be a nerf yes but it will translate into a increase in success for every average sorc.

As you don't have a cc with frags anymore you will use rune prison right before you dish out that frag into curse explosion and mage's wrath proc.
I see so many sorcs running around using frags on cooldown and failing miserably. It's like trying to hit Assassin's will without a cc before it won't work.
Now there is a good cc so you definitely don't need another cc as you can't double cc someone. (Of course everything's possible in lag )

I know many people will disagree but please sit down for 10 minutes, think about it and then post in this thread again.

And yes remove the stun from incap it's not needed!!

So, please do tell me when I get my new magical 6th ability slot to add Rune Prison on my bar so I can now have the privilege of using two skills to do the work of one - especially when we were just explicitly told Rune Prison will have a cost increase! Sorcs are just being pigeon holed into being forced to run Rune Prison front bar just to have any functional CC. For instance, on DW sorc that means you lose mage light, hit significantly weaker and have to spend more magicka using an extra skill (that Wrobel already said will be made more expensive) on every rotation. And if we're going to get into the strengths of the new Rune Prison - comparing it to Fossilize, what about the fact that DKs also have access to a Frag-like CC from Stone Giant? That one's even instant cast!

And no, "everyone running a sorc" does not hold the opinion that they will "totally get by without the stun". Obviously from a theoretical view, a perfectly setup Curse > Meteor > Prison > Frags combo is a stronger burst with the new change. But that also means losing a skill to fit Rune Prison on your bar in the first place, and since as you yourself acknowledge Frags CC is not OP and plays no role in this new burst combo, I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from.

Why shouldn't I be afforded the choice of which CCs I build around, instead of being forced into just one?

Izaki

Joy_Division wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Everyone running a sorc knows that you can totally get by without the stun on crystal frags especially with the changes to Rune prison.

Most of the time you wouldn't even hit someone with the frag stun because almost every enemy you encounter uses Miat.
The change will be a nerf yes but it will translate into a increase in success for every average sorc.

As you don't have a cc with frags anymore you will use rune prison right before you dish out that frag into curse explosion and mage's wrath proc.
I see so many sorcs running around using frags on cooldown and failing miserably. It's like trying to hit Assassin's will without a cc before it won't work.
Now there is a good cc so you definitely don't need another cc as you can't double cc someone. (Of course everything's possible in lag )

I know many people will disagree but please sit down for 10 minutes, think about it and then post in this thread again.

And yes remove the stun from incap it's not needed!!

That's not the point.

Can a sorc still do their thing and have success? Yeah. But it's a slap in the face to those people whose main is a sorc. It's a class defining skill. One that worked and everyone used. It was strong, but had many counters. It's precisely the type of skills the game needs more of, not less. The nerf was not necessary. Hell, the 10% less damage nerf from the Morrowind patch was also unnecessary and should be reverted.

You come in this thread and tell people not to worry about the nerf because there's something else they can do - you just sound like one of the many people who spam nerf sorcs threads. If it was your class defining skill getting nerfed, you and everybody else telling sorcs "it ain't too bad, deal with it" would NOT just lie down and accept it. Nobody likes nerfs .... except when they happen to someone else's class, then they somehow are understandable and nothing to get worked over about.

More than that, the whole method of nerfing skills we actually use to make the ones we don;t more "appealing" is an absolute asinine way to go about balancing or "improving" a game. Such a procedure should be heartily discouraged and unambiguously denounced. The game will not get better and it's only a matter of time before it's your class that is "balanced" by making the sucky morph the standard.

Being stuck with sucky morphs is why people quit playing to classes and quit playing ESO. For years I put up with loadscreens, lag, bugs, questionable mechanics, apathetic PvP devs, guilds quitting, friends leaving, etc., because at the end of the day, those classes I chose to play and invest my time in were fun, could do some cool things, and sometimes did awesome things that made me feel powerful. Much of this is already gone and any further slippage down the precipice of homogeneity, bad skills, and boring gameplay should be resisted rather than encouraged.

Amen.