Joy's thoughts on Templars in Morrowind: they just aren't fun anymore

Joy_Division

While I can empathize with the frustrations many Templars have articulated on these forums, I'm not sure I agree with the more passion-driven conclusions. Looking at things objectively, do we really want to argue there isn't a point in running templar healers? Or that we somehow have a better grasp of the issue than ZoS did after months and months of internal testing?

I hate to say this, but there is a point in bringing a templar healer: they heal and will be able to do the job effectively once Morrowind drops.

It's obvious ZoS wants to limit resource sustain to a degree that prompts us to reevaluate our (perceived) lazy habits of just building for max damage. If Templars kept their exclusive hold on group resource generation, they would circumvent the entire basis of this goal that ZoS deems important. I don;t mean to be the bearer of bad news, but I highly doubt we are getting Repentance back and Shards on a separate cooldown would make Templars double the group sustainers as those classes that relied on Orbs.

ZoS will never admit this, but I'll tell you straight up: major mending is gone because of CP PvP. I play it every night and I heard Rich Lambert on ESO Live. This was as predictable to me as the sun rising in the East. I do think Wardens will have a very high up-time on Major Mending, but I suspect ZoS's adjustment will be more about scaling that back than restoring it for Templars.

Now reading this, you might think I agree with ZoS's direction. I don't. I hate it. But it is what it is. They are convinced that resource management in the game is trivial and that has damaged the integrity of the combat system. The changes they made in the patch notes are consistent with this goal and ZoS can't just revert it because we Templars are worried about becoming obsolete when nobody has played a Warden on the Live server yet.

If you really want Zos to reevaluate the changes they have made, you are going to have to convince them that ramifications of this patch are going to be detrimental to gameplay or the overall health of the franchise. This is going to be a tough sell. Because as much as people have voiced their displeasure over the patch notes, most of those very same people sympathize with Zos's overall goals. I've been on the PTS. Zos can compare my vMA score on Live (490,000) and my vMA score on PTS (420,000) and that would suggest that their goals are indeed being met since I can still complete the content and still get a decent score. I've have been in the new Trial and in just a few days, the bosses are getting killed with Templars healing. This is going to be a *really* tough sell.

All that being said, I do have a concern that I very much would like to hear ZoS's answer. Because I have seen nothing in the Patch Notes, any developer comment, or anywhere that allays my concerns:

It is clear as day to me and everyone else whose main was a Templar from Launch that what made the class distinctive from the others is gone.

• Puncturing Strikes stunned targets and healed for more. Now no more stun (instead just a snare) and it heals for much less.
• Biting Jabs stunned targets and acted as quasi execute. Now it just snares and gives a generic buff available elsewhere.
• Focused Charge was fast, responsive, and managed to hit opponents without the need for unpurgable auto-snare. Now it’s slow, bugs out, and places a snare on my opponents even if they are using a specific ability that makes them immune.
• Spear Shards stunned an opponent, had a longer relative range to other skills before Battle Spirit, and gave me the conscious ability to provide stamina to my allies. Now it doesn’t stun, I do not have a choice what resource it restores, and every other class can replicate this once unique ability via the Undaunted Skill line. Also, this used to tick twice as fast and thus twice as many Burning Light procs
• Blazing Shield was once a functional defense shield for all templars as it was based off health, an attribute the game’s mechanics used to encourage us to invest in. Now it’s a suboptimal choice for all templars excepting niche builds that stack max health.
• The Balanced Warrior passive used to benefit all templar’s damage. Now it only does so for “stamplars”
• Eclipse use to always reflect just about everything in the game for 7.2 seconds and had no targeting restrictions. Now only one morph only reflects projectiles and it only lasts for 3.5 seconds.
• I use to have a skill called Blinding Flashes that gave melee opponents a unique miss chance debuff. It’s now gone.
• The Restoring Spirit passive used to restore magicka when casting a Dawn’s Wrath ability. Now it’s just a generic small cost reduction (that is subject to diminishing returns).
• The Remembrance ultimate morph used to provide my allies with damage reduction. Now it doesn’t.
• Breath of Life once had an additional heal and no targeting restrictions.
• Restoring Aura once provided allies (and the templar) a bonus to their stam recovery not available anywhere else in the game. Now it debuffs six enemies with a generic debuff that restores magicka to my allies if they attack specific target.
• Repentance once restored health and stamina to the templar and her allies from corpses. Right now it is the last of the mechanics in ESO that once reward successful smaller sized groups overcome disorganized masses. On the PTS, this is gone as it’s just a situational AoE heal and only the templar gains stamina.
• Cleansing ritual used to cleanse debuffs and incoming projectiles. Now, no more projectiles and it’s more expensive.
• Focused Healing passive once gave me a unique 30% healing buff to allies standing in my protective circles. Now this is called Mending and gives a 12% buff if I am standing in my protective circles. If I combine it with the new Sacred Ground Passive, I can get an additional 8%. So in total 10% less.
• Mending once passive gave me a higher chance to critically heal a low health target. This is now gone completely.

It's enough to make a Templar cry.

Now, I'm not claiming the class is nerfed because it's not. It's not so much the power that has been sucked from my class but its soul. Each and every one of those once unique powers that differentiated my class from the others has been taken away because generic, bland, and flat power has been acquired elsewhere in the form of gear, the natural "Power Creep" that accompanies progression games, and especially the Champion System. In effect ZoS has been robbing Peter to pay Paul.

All classes have had to contend with this. Dragonknights more so than us. Sorcerers to a lesser degree. Nightblades I cannot say because I did not play one at launch.

Zos can quantify power so it thinks as long as the classes are roughly equivalent that all is OK. Well ZoS, you can't quantify fun. I'm telling you right now that I do not enjoy that the uniqueness of my class has been torn asunder just to be replaced by the homogenized generic +X% boosts in its stead. What had once made it fun to play a Templar no longer exists.

Here's the thing. I know I have the Healing Ritual spell. I didn’t need to be reminded about it and I most certainly could have done without ZoS dubbing it a “faster healing spammable ability.” It is a terrible spell that is in every way inferior to Healing Springs and in no way fast. What we are going to do is spam Healing Springs just like every other class. We will still use Shards, but it now supports the group just like every other class. I suppose we could use Restoring Aura, but why bother since it provides the same debuff as Elemental Drain and thus its effect is just like every other class. We no longer can reward the success our group with a Repentance stamina refill just like every other class. And please don't tell me it's free; my group has to kill enemies and I actually have to activate the skill with a global cooldown. It is the very last game mechanic in ESO that legitimately rewards one group of players for defeating another. Yes I have Purifying Ritual but everyone has access Purge. Yes I have Breath of Life, but you don’t even need to look to the Warden for other burst heals because there is multi-directional Twilight Matriarch and Steadfast Ward. You can argue that BoL is better, and maybe it is. Who cares? The point here is not that Templars healer can’t do the job or that they are gimped or weaker than other healers. Rather what interesting, compelling, and distinctive function doesa Templar provide a group? That’s gone. Gone the way of the stun from Blazing Spear, the unique CC from Blinding Flashes, the counter-play potential of Eclipse, the viability of Sun Shield, the resource return mechanic of Restoring Spirit, the zerg-fighting potential of Repentance. The Templar body functions, but its soul is no longer there.

And for what? All to reign in that bland generic power that comes from ZoS’s buff system and especially the flat percentage boosts everyone gets from the Champion System. There is so much power beyond our class skill-lines and passives such that ZoS has been forced to strip away our classes in order to maintain some semblance of control. Why do you think every patch update since the Imperial City has been page after page of nerfs? Why do you think ZoS has gone away from its “100% commitment” that PvP and PvE would governed by the same rules? Ask anyone who plays on Azura's Star who has been hit with a siege weapon, inflicted with a resource draining poison, or fought someone with the TrollKing monster set if ESO is "a single unified game where mechanics and abilities work consistently." Remember when we wrote over 80 pages of Templar feedback on the PTS made fun of Eric Wrobel and his Templar "house"? Well, as it turns out Templar Houses were indeed mighty in spite of the nerfs. This is the conundrum the developers must strain their brain on every patch: even when they nerf us, we become relatively stronger.

That’s the problem ZoS. It’s not that Templars are weak, or useless, or over-nerfed, or can’t compete with Wardens. Rather it is clear as day to anyone who has played and cared about a Templar since launch that the essence of what once made the class distinctive and fun is dead. The soulless husks we play now still have more than adequate power to fulfill whatever role is called on them, but there is no compelling game-play reason to use them as the direction you have taken the game has eliminated unique class functions in favor of generic power boosts available to everyone. That’s a terrible change. We are all pretty much the same. It’s boring. I don’t think you ever should have allowed the Champion System to steal the power inherent in our classes. Because you will never ever convince me that some +X major bonus to stamina available to everyone is as awesome, rewarding, stimulating, or fun as the Repentance skill.

I want the soul back on my templar. And it pains me you cannot grant that because of the direction you took ESO.

HugeMuffin

None of my characters are fun anymore. The HA meta is not fun, having to wait for regen as a "global cool down" is not fun. Taking twice as long to kill the same bosses for the same reward is not fun. Playing every stamina class the same way is not fun. Losing unique class skills that are replaced with generics is not fun. I don't want "increased survivability", I want to kill stuff and work my way to the next bit of content. Wailing on the same set of adds in the same room for a longer amount of time is not "Dynamic". It's quite the opposite.

I'm not sure if someone created an "Is the new patch fun?" poll yet, but if someone could point me at it, i'd gladly vote in it.

Dread_Guy

Very well said, Joy. I think you stated the crux of every templar's complaint. We want a reason to play this class and love it, but there is no reason to. The homogony of all our skills, as you eloquently put it, "it takes away our uniqueness."

I think that is what hurts the most and makes me sad about the direction of this game

Akimbro

Templars definitely got the shaft here to make the Warden more appealing. It's just not the same class anymore.

DeadlyRecluse

Not much to say you didn't cover.

I keep trying to figure out my magplar setup for next patch, and I keep walking away thinking I'm just making a crappy sorc.

There are so few remaining interesting things templar's have going for them. Burning light is the last interesting passive, lol.

bikerangelol

#MakeJoyJoyfulAgain
#NeverForgetRepentence

Mishkaiel

I've been maining a Templar since January 2016, and I have more fun now and on the pts playing a magsorc...

Dasovaruilos

Joy_Division wrote: »

It’s not that Templars are weak, or useless, or over-nerfed, or can’t compete with Wardens. Rather it is clear as day to anyone who has played and cared about a Templar since launch that the essence of what once made the class distinctive and fun is dead. The soulless husks we play now still have more than adequate power to fulfill whatever role is called on them, but there is no compelling game-play reason to use them as the direction you have taken the game has eliminated unique class functions in favor of generic power boosts available to everyone. That’s a terrible change. We are all pretty much the same. It’s boring.

I agree with mostly everything, but this, right here, is what bothers me the most.

It looks like Healer builds will just become like Stamina builds. 8 out of 10 possible skills will be the same for everyone. The 2 you might fill with class will not actually be important.

I don't understand why every class should have the same power in every role. Then just scrap classes altogether and make all skills available to everyone.

parkham

How do you ensure class uniqueness while also maintaining:

Class power balance
PVE and PVP balance
Replayabilty
ZOS profits

tygyr

This post sums up what I have been feeling about my Templar main. I have been struggling to express the felling I have and you have captured it perfectly.

Brrrofski

Honestly, the bol change is fine. It encourages more selective healing and clever gameplay. I'm fine it that.

Major mending was too good in PvP, but it's largely due to heavy armor. Increased healing, resistances and resources when attacked all add to the ability to never die. This applies to do too.

Major mending wasn't an issue before heavy was the PvP meta. If they can find a way to make heavy less appealing without breaking it (maybe even lowering your damage while wearing 5 heavy?), added to blessed losing 10% from CP, the problem may be solved. No major mending for Templars and pretty non-existent on dk in pvp. A stam sorc will potentially heal better than stamplars and Stam dks with surge up.

Repantance change... Why? Is it to stop stamplars sustaining effectively? They still have to kill to benefit from it. It's not guaranteed sustain. I don't see why a group skill should go.

Shard change is ridiculous too. I get what they're doing with magica orbs. It let's other class healers help sustain the group. Fine. Keep that. Let it keep a cool down with shards. But leave shards as they are. So templar can guarantee the Stam sustain but others healers can help too, albeit it a bit rng.

DHale

If you come into my Templar house we will both have a very bad day. Don't forget heavy resto attack.

Poliwrath

I really just want blazing shield back, that skill was so much fun. i'd say blazing spear too but theyve made luminous so useful now its w/e. the repentance thing i cant rlly say i mind...but i dont usually play with a stamplar and 2 magplars can make use of both morphs. and lets be honest focused charge is in a MUCH better spot than 2-3 years ago when it would get your character stuck for 30 secs.

sweeps still heals a ton, eclipse has never been good, the bol nerfs i like cause healers need a bit more of a brain, the restoring spirit nerf has been amended with channeled focus/resto aura, cleansing ritual should never have stopped projectiles (that was ridiculous), im glad groups cant spam remembrance anymore to live through anything, and major to minor mending feels fine to me.

i agree theyve taken some of the fun out of the class though that can be said for most of the game (see dragonknights, poor ***), but i think youre overreacting like most ppl to some of the nerfs. this is all obv from a pvp perspective

Dark_Aether

Akimbro wrote: »

Templars definitely got the shaft here to make the Warden more appealing. It's just not the same class anymore.

It's ok! I'm sure if they introduce a necromancer class, they will show the same lack of creativity and Sorcerers will suffer for it.

Merlin13KAGL

From the parse tests I did, it appeared they improved and killed diversity all in one swoop.

With a multitude of different gear setups, enchants, and skill combinations, all parses were within a few K of each other.

Their intent being strategic play, determining which skill to use and when...my results showed quite the opposite, that is, it seemed to matter very little which skills I slotted - the end results were basically the same.

You don't promote one class (Warden) by devaluing the others.

Solariken

Great post, deep truths.

Cêltic421

I feel.you. the uniqueness of my templar is now gone. Sad time to be a templar. That is what I hate most about this update. Stripping away skills from my templar. If ZoS wants all classes to be the same than why have 4 different classes?

Asgari

I am unhappy with my stamplar (will still play it) .. but im waaaay more upset about my dk .. mDK finally was in a good balanced spot in pvp and now its ruined.

newtinmpls

tygyr wrote: »

This post sums up what I have been feeling about my Templar main. I have been struggling to express the felling I have and you have captured it perfectly.

Well said.

This is sort of the equivalent of taking away sorc pets (for those of use that love pet builds) and putting in a semi-randomized damage spell. No color, less fun.

technohic

Spot on Joy

lunalitetempler

Disagree, love my templer, even more so now. I think DPS should manage their own resources! No me..

Ron_Burgundy_79

Well said Joy. At this point, I would be happy if we got a reliable cc that worked worth a damn.

@Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert both of you have said that you are working on this very issue. Will we see a fix this patch, or do we have to wait another 4-6 months?

Briuce

Great post OP.

Stripping classes of their core abilities is definitely not the way to go, especially not in the name of the inherently flawed CP system. Here's hoping that ZOS will reconsider

NBrookus

My DKs agree with you @Joy_Division. The soul has been sucked out of templars and DKs both.

Brrrofski wrote: »

Major mending wasn't an issue before heavy was the PvP meta. If they can find a way to make heavy less appealing without breaking it (maybe even lowering your damage while wearing 5 heavy?),

ZOS made heavy armor the meta for stamina when they replaced the Bracing passive with Wrath... with sets like Fury and Seventh Legion around. ZOS made heavy armor the meta for magDK and templar with the sheer numbers of snares and immobilizations in game and these classes have to take a lot of punishment with very limited mobility.

Then the sheer amount of damage and penetration in Cyrodiil makes anything other than heavy a death wish, except for sorcs when they have their shields up that everyone likes to complain about. That hasn't changed. Unless everyone radically shifts to sustain builds -- which I doubt -- you are still going to need defense against 12k dizzying swings from another heavy armor user.

stevepdodson_ESO888

Hear, Hear...definitely worth "Insightful's", "Agree's" and "Awesome's"

And good god yeah...I really miss Blinding Flashes. I go and do vDSA just to battle with the Templar boss who still has that skill just for the memories (and the arse kicking).

Reverb

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I've also never felt less that Zeni cares how people feel about classes (besides the Warden) or combat.

Ron_Burgundy_79

lunalitetempler wrote: »

Disagree, love my templer, even more so now. I think DPS should manage their own resources! No me..

Go play your templar solo in PvP for a while and let me know how you feel about the class after that.

Stardark

Not played PTS but just reading the notes this is exactly how I was feeling. I honestly don't care about balance, I care about fun. My Templar was fun!

ofSunhold

Well said.

The class is a mess. As long as I was playing a healer, and had plenty of useful - and yes, fun - skills for that role, I didn't notice so much. Just lived with the stripping away of offensive abilities, because busy healing. It's kind of shocking to really note how much they've taken away, and how crap the things they gave us as replacements are.

Can confirm that playing my magplar on the PTS has a fun quotient of zero. Magsorc, still fun, has a ton of abilities that are useful, some great passives, none of this feeling attached. I don't want them to hammer the sorcs - I want all the classes to feel fun to play. It seems like that should be an important goal.

All of this to prop up the CP system. It's not worth it.

DisgracefulMind

I agree 100% with you, Joy. On everything. ZoS has literally torn our class apart. It's quite sad. Once hitting Grand Overlord, I'm most likely going to go even more casual and just retire to a life of raid healing and questing. My small group playstyle is pretty much dead with the Repentance changes. And like Gina so happily pointed out with a winky-face, they don't plan to revert Repentance because it's "free", totally ignoring the fact that you spend tons of resources earning your kill for that "free" stamina.

Idk, ZoS' direction for Morrowind is horrible. I really have no faith.

Arbitrator

I've said the same thing years back... that's why I quit playing this game. On and off I would come back and check things out to see if Templars ever got better but they still are THE worst designed class in any game I have ever played. The concept that we think of when we think "Templar" is just not there. They might as well call the class "Crafter" instead of Templar.