ZOS - DK has no place in large-scale PvP groups

Kilandros

Most large (10+) PvP groups have completely eliminated DKs from their group roster. Those who continue to run DKs do so at a disadvantage. Every class besides DK has a role that is indispensable in the current meta:

Nightblade - Bomblade
Sorc - Negate
Templar - Healer
Warden - Tree Ult/Permafrost

Every organized/competitive PvP guild has some combination of the above classes. But in larger-scale PvP, DK currently has no place since anything it can do some other class can do better. Nightblades make better bombers; Sorcerers are more effective at Streaking ahead than having DKs Leap ahead because Streak doesn't cost Ult and because that gives the group an extra Negate or an extra Destro. Sorcerers are better at rooting groups with encase because encase has a larger AoE than Talons and, again, means the group gets an extra Negate. There is literally nothing that a DK can do in large groups that another class can't do significantly better. That isn't me being hysterical or biased (disclosure: I love DK). That's just a fact that I have learned by helping lead a competitive PvP group.

This isn't a nerf the other classes thread. But this is a request to give DKs some love in group PvP. There's just no way ZOS can be happy with DKs in a large-scale PvP setting. It's been two years since DK's ruled Cyrodiil and it's time to give them something. DKs are NOT just tanks.

Psilent

I agree, my main PvP character is a Stamina Dragonknight that I have shelved due to how useless the character is in group play. I can do everything better on a StamSorc, so bringing my StamDK literally feels like I'm being carried.

Taonnor

Agree, DK is completely out in our group meta.

Koolio

Block tanks are great in groups.
DPS though I can definitely see issues. What would help without anything crazy? Noxious breath range increase by double?
That shouldnt really effect pve to much while at least helping the AOE component from what I can see.

Thogard

Psilent wrote: »

I agree, my main PvP character is a Stamina Dragonknight that I have shelved due to how useless the character is in group play. I can do everything better on a StamSorc, so bringing my StamDK literally feels like I'm being carried.

Agreed, Stam sorc really ruins the Stam DK. Stam sorcs are much tankier due to crit surge, more burst dmg due to implosion and the dmg passives, more sustain thanks to dark deal, equal CC, similar ults thanks to dawnbreaker fix in next patch. They can run bow / DW and skip 2h because they don't need rally (again thanks to crit surge)

Plus it's really fricken hard to see a wrecking blow windup when they're in hurricane form. Plus they're great at destroying NBs and popping them out due to hurricane.

If I could reclass my DK to a Stam sorc, I would. The block nerf and major mending (on templars) took away the last great advantages Stam DKs had - blocking and being healed.

NBrookus

There's nothing in a small group DK does best either.

"The marvel is not that the bear dances well, but that the bear dances at all."

Kilandros

Koolio wrote: »

Block tanks are great in groups.
DPS though I can definitely see issues. What would help without anything crazy? Noxious breath range increase by double?
That shouldnt really effect pve to much while at least helping the AOE component from what I can see.

Block tanks aren't great in the Destroy ult meta. But if you are going to have a tank in group, you want a Warden for the offheals. There's no reason to have a DK just soaking up heals as a tank.

Apherius

Nobody like zerg anyway , you should be happy ! now you can try the 1v1 .

Durham

Small group play is just as bad as large group for DK.. also sucks for soloing..

Durham

Block tanks are not great for any meta unless you are fighting potatoes... good groups ignore them...even Tanky DPS DKs will be ignored by a good group until they are the last target.. why because while they have good burst it's not enough to go through 10k shields and 23k health...

Keep in mind Stam DKs mostly wear fury if they are not getting hit they lose a ton of striking power...
Damage shields with magicka DPS > far out does
tanky Stam DPS

Healing / DPS first

SelfTherapy

Well not everyone likes playing in Zergs. I love roaming solo on my magdk.

Kilandros

SelfTherapy wrote: »

Well not everyone likes playing in Zergs. I love roaming solo on my magdk.

Ok?

Farscape76

I hope that ZOS reads this thread and takes action. There are those of us that would like to use our StamDKs for something other than to tank. I am not saying buff DKs so much that we dominate just give us a chance to be decent again in terms of Dps.

Kilandros

If ZOS reduced the cost of Standard of Might back down to 200 as it was originally, and added a stun upon activation, it would go a long way to making DK desirable in group again.

Durham

Farscape76 wrote: »

I hope that ZOS reads this thread and takes action. There are those of us that would like to use our StamDKs for something other than to tank. I am not saying buff DKs so much that we dominate just give us a chance to be decent again in terms of Dps.

The synergies with stam were nerfed way to hard... just DPS abilities will not do it...
-9 meta nerfs last patch
-3 meta nerfs the patch before

Stam DKs still work there are just better options out there... I could support my group better as a tanky stam sorc ... in both large and small...

Koolio

Kilandros wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

Block tanks are great in groups.
DPS though I can definitely see issues. What would help without anything crazy? Noxious breath range increase by double?
That shouldnt really effect pve to much while at least helping the AOE component from what I can see.

Block tanks aren't great in the Destroy ult meta. But if you are going to have a tank in group, you want a Warden for the offheals. There's no reason to have a DK just soaking up heals as a tank.

Got one in my guild that runs Dragon and beckoning Steel. He just stays near the healers and absorbs/reflects all projectiles. Talons anyone who comes near. Of course you can run this on different classes but he does great with it.

Kilandros

Koolio wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

Block tanks are great in groups.
DPS though I can definitely see issues. What would help without anything crazy? Noxious breath range increase by double?
That shouldnt really effect pve to much while at least helping the AOE component from what I can see.

Block tanks aren't great in the Destroy ult meta. But if you are going to have a tank in group, you want a Warden for the offheals. There's no reason to have a DK just soaking up heals as a tank.

Got one in my guild that runs Dragon and beckoning Steel. He just stays near the healers and absorbs/reflects all projectiles. Talons anyone who comes near. Of course you can run this on different classes but he does great with it.

That's far from optimal though. You'd be better off with another bomblade or another negate or another permafrost.

Drakkdjinn

Wrong. All good tanks (Stam or mag) have a place in group PvP not to mention any swinging dude with a pulse that can equip destro ult will be gewd in this Zerg meta - MagDK

Kilandros

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Wrong. All good tanks (Stam or mag) have a place in group PvP not to mention any swinging dude with a pulse that can equip destro ult will be gewd in this Zerg meta - MagDK

None of the top PvP groups on NA run pure tanks right now. So I don't really know what you're talking about. Even if they did run a purebred Tank, why DK? Just made a tank Warden that can offheal and drop permafrost.

GreenSoup2HoT

Thats exactly how i feel on my stamina nightblade. Bombard is now useless. All is got is Soul Siphon to heal the group from a bomb or spam fear.

We need standard and consuming darkness reworks.

Kilandros

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Thats exactly how i feel on my stamina nightblade. Bombard is now useless. All is got is Soul Siphon to heal the group from a bomb or spam fear.

We need standard and consuming darkness reworks.

Unfortunately all stam classes are pretty lackluster in bigger groups right now. We keep them for rapid spam only. But stam is in a weird place because it's great solo and it's great in smaller groups of 2-6, but when you start getting into the 8+ groups stamina is basically only used for rapids.

GreenSoup2HoT

Kilandros wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Thats exactly how i feel on my stamina nightblade. Bombard is now useless. All is got is Soul Siphon to heal the group from a bomb or spam fear.

We need standard and consuming darkness reworks.

Unfortunately all stam classes are pretty lackluster in bigger groups right now. We keep them for rapid spam only. But stam is in a weird place because it's great solo and it's great in smaller groups of 2-6, but when you start getting into the 8+ groups stamina is basically only used for rapids.

yeah forgot to include that i rapid spam. i also sometimes purge spam too. stamina is in a weird place.

Valencer

Bringing a DK to PvP raids has been bad ever since destro ulti became a thing. Nothing new there.

AnviOfVai

hmm I see what you mean when you say that DK's are lacking compared to other builds and classes, however I run a DK stam knight and I tend to run in groups.

My sustain is very good, but unlike a Templar Tank I can't do any damage with this build what so ever, so I rely on my team mates to dish out the pain while I stun and slow the players down, as well as blocking and taking as much damage as I can. As mentioned above yes players do tend to "try and avoid you" but if you get in the way enough and "mark" the player they are trying to attack it normally works out pretty well Also if you are facing a zerg, and you run ahead of the group, people begin to automatically attack you anyway which is the best solution until you get nightblades sneaking around with their bombs!

To counter act my liability of not being able to do damage I have werewolf activated as my main ultimate, this allows me to dish out damage and buff my group with Rousing Roar. I can still withstand damage as long as I put my shields up before I turn.Poblem is with this is that the werewolf takes a while to generate and again your kinda at a disadvantage when facing large groups of people.

In no way am I shelfing my DK knight, I still think she is tanky enough to get the job done, but being a Stamina build she can't block for as long as I would like her to and her damage is useless. It would be nice to have the DKs up with the other classes.

Teridaxus

Trebuchet pilot!

thankyourat

It's not just dk, nightblade doesn't really have a place in large group pvp either simply because why play nightblade when you can play a sorc. stamsorc has negate and roots and magsorc had acsees to the destro ultimate in a raid you don't really need a bomber because all of you will time your ultimate and since the destro ultimate is so strong the element of surprise is not needed. just have 2 or 3 sorcs pop destro ultimate together and everyone will die. I do feel however mag dk can have a place in raids for their crowd control ability but honestly a sorc tank can do this job as well and has acsees to negate. Warden is kind of in the same boat it's outclassed by magplar. This is why you see most raids consist of sorcs and templars you don't really need anything else. As long as sorc has the best dps and best pvp tank potential you want see alot of dks

Chilly-McFreeze

And what stops your mNB from running the destro Ult? Honestly, almost everytime I get run over by a pain train some nb skills are in the mix form the destro ulter.

thankyourat

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

And what stops your mNB from running the destro Ult? Honestly, almost everytime I get run over by a pain train some nb skills are in the mix form the destro ulter.

Nothing stops a mnb from running the destro ult same with magdk nothing stops them from using the destro ultimate, but sorc is an overall stronger choice. You can dealt for any magicka build into a raid and the raid will still be strong but mag sorc would be the best choice which is my point. Why run a mag dk or a magblade instead of a mag sorc from a large scale pvp perspective

Kilandros

thankyourat wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

And what stops your mNB from running the destro Ult? Honestly, almost everytime I get run over by a pain train some nb skills are in the mix form the destro ulter.

Nothing stops a mnb from running the destro ult same with magdk nothing stops them from using the destro ultimate, but sorc is an overall stronger choice. You can dealt for any magicka build into a raid and the raid will still be strong but mag sorc would be the best choice which is my point. Why run a mag dk or a magblade instead of a mag sorc from a large scale pvp perspective

Magsorc or mDK with destro doesn't come anywhere near the damage output of a bomblade.

ak_pvp

Simple fixity fix.

Standard, useless in group meta. You just move away from it too damn fast. Make both shiftable, but give one a stun on drop and the other the damage increase. 250 ult for pisspoor damage that is instantly moved out of is pathetic.

Give DKs the implosion passive.

Lets be real, lowest burst damage, no execute, and worse than most other classes. Why not give dot classes an execute based of stacking dots (More ticks more chance of executing.) So the DK can actually kill people.

Other basic fixes like reverting "fixes." (Anyone remember when they made it not be affected by cyro passives because of the gap-close to keep thing, and "fixed" it by lowering range, but never changed it back when they fixed it?) Lmao chains was the only one that couldn't get up keep in the first place due to height issues that still remain from a previous fix from pulling down from keep.

thankyourat

Kilandros wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

And what stops your mNB from running the destro Ult? Honestly, almost everytime I get run over by a pain train some nb skills are in the mix form the destro ulter.

Nothing stops a mnb from running the destro ult same with magdk nothing stops them from using the destro ultimate, but sorc is an overall stronger choice. You can dealt for any magicka build into a raid and the raid will still be strong but mag sorc would be the best choice which is my point. Why run a mag dk or a magblade instead of a mag sorc from a large scale pvp perspective

Magsorc or mDK with destro doesn't come anywhere near the damage output of a bomblade.

That's only because bombblades build that way they usually wear all damage sets and divine armor pieces. They really are best at bombing unaware players It's more of a bomb and run away playstyle as well. A magblade in a raid would be much better in a support role than a bomber role because everyone will have destro ultimate, a bomber is completely unnecessary.