ZOS - DK has no place in large-scale PvP groups

ak_pvp

Derra wrote: »

DK is back with a vengeance for smaller groups though.

What role do you think they could fill without becoming completely OP for smaller groups again?

Working pull that doesn't counter themselves, and don't have a height issue. DKs are *** by anyone remotely mobile. Maybe a quake like ability that offbalances anyone around.

Ideaaaa:

Fragmented shields: Rename to harmonic tremor. Call the earth to quake, shielding you in rock for X for Y seconds and setting near by enemies in Z radius offbalance after the the shield breaks. Make it a stamina ability. This can give both DKs some utility and make a useless morph good, especially since they nerfed igneous real hard. (Even the animation looks like you are shaking the earth.)

Chains: Remove the pull, fix height issues, focus on making it good. Alternatively make it a different skill, I don't feel like DKs need a gapcloser, but its taunting to give such a *** one.

Stonefist: Rename to tectonics. Make this the chains pull, but remove the auto CC immunity but make it breakable free from. This way the pull can be used more than once, but can be countered.

Possibly allow Leap on walls. Give DKs a unique functionality. But first revert the reach passive not affecting dragon leap.

FakeFox

I don't see the problem. Zerging isn't the only way to play PvP and DK's are very potent in solo and small groups.

Also you only talk about magicka, following you logic stamina chars are even more in a disadvantage.

Feanor

Group composition doesn't really matter when you bring 50+ to every fight as we're seeing it on EU Sotha Sil regularly. I find it a bit strange that DK should need buffs for large scale groups of all places.

Aztlan

Look, I play a stamina DK in PvP, and I do fairly well solo and in small group play, but I would really prefer not to have to switch characters when my PvP guild forms an organized group of 16 (which, by the way, isn't a zerg). I'd be fine with swapping gear or skills, but for all the reasons the OP stated, I feel like I contribute more to the group by playing my NB (because Mass Hysteria) or Stamplar (because Power of the Light). DKs need a skill, even just one skill, that would really make it worthwhile to have a DK in group instead of another Negate or EotS.

Kilandros

Feanor wrote: »

Group composition doesn't really matter when you bring 50+ to every fight as we're seeing it on EU Sotha Sil regularly. I find it a bit strange that DK should need buffs for large scale groups of all places.

No one's talking about 50+ groups. I don't know why you're bringing that up here.

Feanor

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Group composition doesn't really matter when you bring 50+ to every fight as we're seeing it on EU Sotha Sil regularly. I find it a bit strange that DK should need buffs for large scale groups of all places.

No one's talking about 50+ groups. I don't know why you're bringing that up here.

Because it's the reality?

Kilandros

Feanor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Group composition doesn't really matter when you bring 50+ to every fight as we're seeing it on EU Sotha Sil regularly. I find it a bit strange that DK should need buffs for large scale groups of all places.

No one's talking about 50+ groups. I don't know why you're bringing that up here.

Because it's the reality?

If you're seeing 50+ groups then you should go elsewhere or stop zerging yourself

reiverx

Feanor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Group composition doesn't really matter when you bring 50+ to every fight as we're seeing it on EU Sotha Sil regularly. I find it a bit strange that DK should need buffs for large scale groups of all places.

No one's talking about 50+ groups. I don't know why you're bringing that up here.

Because it's the reality?

Not always. I run in a small group. Rarely more than eight players and as a mDK, I know I'm the weakest link. Everything I do is just supplementary.

I've played this character from day one on my PS4, and every patch has saw it devalued in some way. I'm pretty much done with DKs in PVP.

Feanor

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Group composition doesn't really matter when you bring 50+ to every fight as we're seeing it on EU Sotha Sil regularly. I find it a bit strange that DK should need buffs for large scale groups of all places.

No one's talking about 50+ groups. I don't know why you're bringing that up here.

Because it's the reality?

If you're seeing 50+ groups then you should go elsewhere or stop zerging yourself

It's a regular evening on Sotha Sil EU. I'm always running solo.

Kilandros

Feanor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Group composition doesn't really matter when you bring 50+ to every fight as we're seeing it on EU Sotha Sil regularly. I find it a bit strange that DK should need buffs for large scale groups of all places.

No one's talking about 50+ groups. I don't know why you're bringing that up here.

Because it's the reality?

If you're seeing 50+ groups then you should go elsewhere or stop zerging yourself

It's a regular evening on Sotha Sil EU. I'm always running solo.

If you're running "solo" and seeing 50+ groups it's because you choose to be at places where the faction zergs (including your faction) naturally collide (e.g., Chal/Alessia/Aleswell areas). You are no more a "solo" player than any of the "50+ group" zerglings you came into this thread to complain about.

Feanor

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Group composition doesn't really matter when you bring 50+ to every fight as we're seeing it on EU Sotha Sil regularly. I find it a bit strange that DK should need buffs for large scale groups of all places.

No one's talking about 50+ groups. I don't know why you're bringing that up here.

Because it's the reality?

If you're seeing 50+ groups then you should go elsewhere or stop zerging yourself

It's a regular evening on Sotha Sil EU. I'm always running solo.

If you're running "solo" and seeing 50+ groups it's because you choose to be at places where the faction zergs (including your faction) naturally collide (e.g., Chal/Alessia/Aleswell areas). You are no more a "solo" player than any of the "50+ group" zerglings you came into this thread to complain about.

True. I just could hang out at Dragonclaw lumber instead. I hear the scenery is especially pittoresque.

Kilandros

Feanor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Group composition doesn't really matter when you bring 50+ to every fight as we're seeing it on EU Sotha Sil regularly. I find it a bit strange that DK should need buffs for large scale groups of all places.

No one's talking about 50+ groups. I don't know why you're bringing that up here.

Because it's the reality?

If you're seeing 50+ groups then you should go elsewhere or stop zerging yourself

It's a regular evening on Sotha Sil EU. I'm always running solo.

If you're running "solo" and seeing 50+ groups it's because you choose to be at places where the faction zergs (including your faction) naturally collide (e.g., Chal/Alessia/Aleswell areas). You are no more a "solo" player than any of the "50+ group" zerglings you came into this thread to complain about.

True. I just could hang out at Dragonclaw lumber instead. I hear the scenery is especially pittoresque.

I'd like to get this thread back on track now that we've agreed encountering 50+ groups is largely a matter of choice. Thanks.

UppGRAYxDD

ever heard of burning talons? How about dragon leaping? If DKs have been removed from 10man groups then these groups might want to reconsider....

Kilandros

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

ever heard of burning talons? How about dragon leaping? If DKs have been removed from 10man groups then these groups might want to reconsider....

Are you sure about that? Encase is a better CC than Burning Talons. Negate is a better Ultimate than Dragon Leap.

Durham

reiverx wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Group composition doesn't really matter when you bring 50+ to every fight as we're seeing it on EU Sotha Sil regularly. I find it a bit strange that DK should need buffs for large scale groups of all places.

No one's talking about 50+ groups. I don't know why you're bringing that up here.

Because it's the reality?

Not always. I run in a small group. Rarely more than eight players and as a mDK, I know I'm the weakest link. Everything I do is just supplementary.

I've played this character from day one on my PS4, and every patch has saw it devalued in some way. I'm pretty much done with DKs in PVP.

A DK can still be played effectively you will see them out there ... But there are less of them and they are not needed most people play them atm because thats what they have always played or they are new to the game ....

Stamina DK took a bigger nerf ...They got the same nerf as thier magicka brothers except it was nerfed harder...
( 9 ) total nerfs to this meta ....
Meta refers to playstyle which is not only class based
Here are just some of those 9
1. Helping hands 60% nerf compared to a small buff for magicka DK ... This was the best synergy DKs had with stamina
2. Battle Roar nerf hurt both equally
3. Shields nerf hurt both however since the Stam version need all of those 5 secs this was another big synergy with stam vigor...
4. Vigor effective increase of 50% in cost since the last patch absolutely devastating keep in mind its healing for 30% less also in most situations
5. Heavy Armor nerf hurt both version equally.. but this was a bigger hit to the DK because of its synergy with shields
6. Blocking nerf hurt both equally/ 50% increase in costs per sec
7. Overall stam cost increase all abilities

Keep in mind blocking negates stam return so if your trying to get stam back from heavy attack you need to have a potatoe follow you around so you can get back your stam... This class is hard to pull of in a long heavy action fight atm stam issues come up very quick ... On my magicka DK I saw less of this but on my stam version its pretty bad...

They are almost all single target DPS with stamina issues now.. Why run a stam DK when you can bring other classes to the table that do it much better atm....

Yea you can build a block build but this is not that competitive a good group will just ignore you to the end because you cant really do anything but pick flowers while others fight....

You can make a fury build that requires you to be hit to get your dps up... If your running in a group most of the time you are not really getting hit until the end of the fight and thats when most of your group is dead... SO your damage spikes when you have 3 people on you and your going down anyway.... refer to block build above

You can make a medium armor Two Hander/Bow build why I have no idea just play a NB lol ...

Ghost-Shot

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

ever heard of burning talons? How about dragon leaping? If DKs have been removed from 10man groups then these groups might want to reconsider....

Go back a page or two, I've already addressed everything a DK can bring to a raid and how it is done better by other classes.

Johnnny

I'm not yet used to making serious large scale rosters but isn't the group major sorcery/brutality a really nice thing to have, as you free a slot from all the magicka builds in your team? Maybe a single dk at least wouldn't be bad.

And (as I'm more of a fan of no cp fights, that are faster and more unforgiven) you can run destro/dual wield on stamina builds. Even with cp you can do that, I guess.

But I agree DKs should get buffs to group play.

leepalmer95

Is it even worth talking about roles in raid size groups?

Any 'skill' left in the game instantly dissapears in a raid where you literally just survive until ults and then roll everything.

Ghost-Shot

Johnnny wrote: »

I'm not yet used to making serious large scale rosters but isn't the group major sorcery/brutality a really nice thing to have, as you free a slot from all the magicka builds in your team? Maybe a single dk at least wouldn't be bad.

And (as I'm more of a fan of no cp fights, that are faster and more unforgiven) you can run destro/dual wield on stamina builds. Even with cp you can do that, I guess.

But I agree DKs should get buffs to group play.

Molten armaments is great in theory but in practice it's not very practical, it won't buff the entire group on cast and often times recasting will refresh the buff on people who already had it rather than giving it to someone who doesn't, its best to just have everyone run their own source of sorcery/brutality.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it even worth talking about roles in raid size groups?

Any 'skill' left in the game instantly dissapears in a raid where you literally just survive until ults and then roll everything.

Thank you for demonstrating your lack of knowledge regarding group PvP, when you have actually tried it and have something constructive to bring to the conversation, please come back!

WillhelmBlack

Standard of Might should be epic but it just totally isn't.

leepalmer95

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Johnnny wrote: »

I'm not yet used to making serious large scale rosters but isn't the group major sorcery/brutality a really nice thing to have, as you free a slot from all the magicka builds in your team? Maybe a single dk at least wouldn't be bad.

And (as I'm more of a fan of no cp fights, that are faster and more unforgiven) you can run destro/dual wield on stamina builds. Even with cp you can do that, I guess.

But I agree DKs should get buffs to group play.

Molten armaments is great in theory but in practice it's not very practical, it won't buff the entire group on cast and often times recasting will refresh the buff on people who already had it rather than giving it to someone who doesn't, its best to just have everyone run their own source of sorcery/brutality.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it even worth talking about roles in raid size groups?

Any 'skill' left in the game instantly dissapears in a raid where you literally just survive until ults and then roll everything.

Thank you for demonstrating your lack of knowledge regarding group PvP, when you have actually tried it and have something constructive to bring to the conversation, please come back!

I group pvp. I small scale all the time. Mag dks are amazing in group pvp.

Your on about large scale raids and like i said at that point it's pointless to even think about roles or skill. Just save destro ults for the ult train while having a load of healers spamming heals.

That is my contribution, tell me more on how 'roles' 'skill' are actually around when your running around in a 24 man raid? Do you have specific roles when half your group light attacks 1 person to death or nah?

Ghost-Shot

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Standard of Might should be epic but it just totally isn't.

With no dynamic ult and negates being as strong as they are it can't be useful, way too expensive for an ult that disappears instantly, not to mention it's main effect, defile, is on a spammable Warden AoE. In the days of dynamic ult and breakable negates you could pump out enough banners to outpace the negates but that just isn't an option anymore.

Ghost-Shot

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Johnnny wrote: »

I'm not yet used to making serious large scale rosters but isn't the group major sorcery/brutality a really nice thing to have, as you free a slot from all the magicka builds in your team? Maybe a single dk at least wouldn't be bad.

And (as I'm more of a fan of no cp fights, that are faster and more unforgiven) you can run destro/dual wield on stamina builds. Even with cp you can do that, I guess.

But I agree DKs should get buffs to group play.

Molten armaments is great in theory but in practice it's not very practical, it won't buff the entire group on cast and often times recasting will refresh the buff on people who already had it rather than giving it to someone who doesn't, its best to just have everyone run their own source of sorcery/brutality.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Is it even worth talking about roles in raid size groups?

Any 'skill' left in the game instantly dissapears in a raid where you literally just survive until ults and then roll everything.

Thank you for demonstrating your lack of knowledge regarding group PvP, when you have actually tried it and have something constructive to bring to the conversation, please come back!

I group pvp. I small scale all the time. Mag dks are amazing in group pvp.

Your on about large scale raids and like i said at that point it's pointless to even think about roles or skill. Just save destro ults for the ult train while having a load of healers spamming heals.

That is my contribution, tell me more on how 'roles' 'skill' are actually around when your running around in a 24 man raid? Do you have specific roles when half your group light attacks 1 person to death or nah?

If that is your impression of what raid size groups are maybe you should improve as a player so a good group will let you play with them and see what its really like lol. And if you actually read the thread we have acknowledged that DK's are great in small scale and solo PvP, but in larger groups, which the title literally states this thread is about, they have no place.

Just because you think large scale PvP is so unskillful that discussing roles is arbitrary does't make that point of view accurate. If you have nothing constructive to bring to this discussion why are you even here?

I just read your last part, are you actually dying to light attack spam?? That's embarrassing bro, I don't think I'd admit to that in public...

Kilandros

BUMP for next update. Nothing has changed for DK since HoTR

SASQUATCH0

Still fun ferocious leaping into a Zerg and spamming choking talons while my groups comes in behind me and ultibombs everyone.

Lexxypwns

thankyourat wrote: »

It's not just dk, nightblade doesn't really have a place in large group pvp either simply because why play nightblade when you can play a sorc. stamsorc has negate and roots and magsorc had acsees to the destro ultimate in a raid you don't really need a bomber because all of you will time your ultimate and since the destro ultimate is so strong the element of surprise is not needed. just have 2 or 3 sorcs pop destro ultimate together and everyone will die. I do feel however mag dk can have a place in raids for their crowd control ability but honestly a sorc tank can do this job as well and has acsees to negate. Warden is kind of in the same boat it's outclassed by magplar. This is why you see most raids consist of sorcs and templars you don't really need anything else. As long as sorc has the best dps and best pvp tank potential you want see alot of dks

Mageblade is far and away the best large group DPS option and it isn't even remotely close. Passive ulti gen from soul harvest, 8% max mag, crit damage and chance bonuses and a gap closer without stacking costs.

ANY damage spec that isn't a mageblade is an inefficient use of group space and will always be outperformed by an equally skilled mageblade.

You can have your rapids slaves manning 2 of your negates and that encase spammer with another, there's no arguement for mag sorc over mageblade as large group damage spec.

You even need less DPS specs as mageblade since they have a much higher uptime on destro ult than sorcs will.

Joy_Division

Lexxypwns wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

It's not just dk, nightblade doesn't really have a place in large group pvp either simply because why play nightblade when you can play a sorc. stamsorc has negate and roots and magsorc had acsees to the destro ultimate in a raid you don't really need a bomber because all of you will time your ultimate and since the destro ultimate is so strong the element of surprise is not needed. just have 2 or 3 sorcs pop destro ultimate together and everyone will die. I do feel however mag dk can have a place in raids for their crowd control ability but honestly a sorc tank can do this job as well and has acsees to negate. Warden is kind of in the same boat it's outclassed by magplar. This is why you see most raids consist of sorcs and templars you don't really need anything else. As long as sorc has the best dps and best pvp tank potential you want see alot of dks

Mageblade is far and away the best large group DPS option and it isn't even remotely close. Passive ulti gen from soul harvest, 8% max mag, crit damage and chance bonuses and a gap closer without stacking costs.

ANY damage spec that isn't a mageblade is an inefficient use of group space and will always be outperformed by an equally skilled mageblade.

You can have your rapids slaves manning 2 of your negates and that encase spammer with another, there's no arguement for mag sorc over mageblade as large group damage spec.

You even need less DPS specs as mageblade since they have a much higher uptime on destro ult than sorcs will.

Yep. Magblade is by far the best group and solo bomber and its not even close.

With so much inaccurate and agenda-driven feedback, it's no wonder we often get poor updates.

usmcjdking

MDK is fine. It very much has a place in just about any group comp. S&B/S&B HA retardproof MDK is not strong in a large group though because you can't abuse the vengeance passive (pretty much your source of damage as HA MDK) very easily as conga lining doesn't lend to a MDKs strength who arguably does not want to srprint around spamming talons.

Kilandros

usmcjdking wrote: »

MDK is fine. It very much has a place in just about any group comp. S&B/S&B HA retardproof MDK is not strong in a large group though because you can't abuse the vengeance passive (pretty much your source of damage as HA MDK) very easily as conga lining doesn't lend to a MDKs strength who arguably does not want to srprint around spamming talons.

wut

usmcjdking

Kilandros wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

MDK is fine. It very much has a place in just about any group comp. S&B/S&B HA retardproof MDK is not strong in a large group though because you can't abuse the vengeance passive (pretty much your source of damage as HA MDK) very easily as conga lining doesn't lend to a MDKs strength who arguably does not want to srprint around spamming talons.

wut

A large amount of S&B MDK damage comes from vengeance passive providing you artificially high crit rates. Conga line raids mean you aren't blocking which means you aren't getting vengeance passive. Because you aren't getting vengeance, your damage falls off like a sack of bricks. Because your artificial crit steroid has disappeared, your damage is now awful. So what does the standard HA Mag DK offer to a raid? Just about nothing.

S&B MDK is not designed for kiting. The group meta is kite until ult. This does not mean Mag DK is weak because it is still incredibly strong in small groups and even solo.