ZOS - DK has no place in large-scale PvP groups

Ishammael

Bring back chains from 1.2

DKsUnite

Please make chains reliable again.

Please give cinder storm a disorient like what the old eruption had.

Increase the range of talons

Make frag shield do damage on break for all people with it on (reduce damage though obviously)

Change corrupting pollen from warden to minor defile. Make standard useful in group pvp again.

TheHsN

I guess it was Ethaniel ...go you tube watch him and learn how to play DK and kill al people infront of you... PLS dont offence ...If a one guy can make it thats mean u dont know how to play. And BlobESO was killing with DK to...And Since more than 3 years i play this game DK always good in PVP

Rex-Umbra

Lol dks excel group pvp.

Orchish

Bring back old Cinder storm!

Mickydanz

I agree, DK's are not really meta atm for coodinated groups in Cyrodiil, they lack compared to other options. The only reason I would want one in my group would be major brutality spamming to save skills for other group members. Coordinated groups normally run specific builds to compensate for each other.

Sorcery = negate - snare/roots - cc's - bombing potential
Mageblades = bombing - fears - high dps
Warden/Templar = healing - tanking

DragonKnight = self tanking/healing, small aoe root/snare, high cost ultimates (except leap, but if you yolo with a leap you will die 90% of the time)

8 to 15 man groups - not solo - small man

DisgracefulMind

If we have a DK in group, we literally just make him get on oils or siege when we're defending objectives )':

Puglandros has been doing a lot of that lately.

Jawasa

@Rex-Umbra How? I just dont see the point in dk for group play unless you run 2-4 stamdk dps tanks in a small group.

Ishammael

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

If we have a DK in group, we literally just make him get on oils or siege when we're defending objectives )':

Puglandros has been doing a lot of that lately.

I just act like I'm useful, and leap at appropriate times to keep up appearances.

Drakkdjinn

Kilandros wrote: »

Drakkdjinn wrote: »

Wrong. All good tanks (Stam or mag) have a place in group PvP not to mention any swinging dude with a pulse that can equip destro ult will be gewd in this Zerg meta - MagDK

None of the top PvP groups on NA run pure tanks right now. So I don't really know what you're talking about. Even if they did run a purebred Tank, why DK? Just made a tank Warden that can offheal and drop permafrost.

Lol what "top NA" groups you been zergin with -- oh you mean Vivec? There's no "top" anything in there, just a bunch of zergs in CP training wheels.

Jamini

Making Unrelenting Grip more reliable would vastly help DK out.

Remove the ministun on chains, remove the snare immunity on dodge-roll (it was dumb to begin with. It only impacted people foolish enough to not run Forward momentum/shuffle anyway), adjust the height restrictions on unrelenting grip. Let the disruption class actually... disrupt the enemy.

ak_pvp

Jamini wrote: »

Making Unrelenting Grip more reliable would vastly help DK out.

Remove the ministun on chains, remove the snare immunity on dodge-roll (it was dumb to begin with. It only impacted people foolish enough to not run Forward momentum/shuffle anyway), adjust the height restrictions on unrelenting grip. Let the disruption class actually... disrupt the enemy.

Remove the auto CC immunity from chains, instead allow players to break free from it.

DKsUnite

ak_pvp wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Making Unrelenting Grip more reliable would vastly help DK out.

Remove the ministun on chains, remove the snare immunity on dodge-roll (it was dumb to begin with. It only impacted people foolish enough to not run Forward momentum/shuffle anyway), adjust the height restrictions on unrelenting grip. Let the disruption class actually... disrupt the enemy.

Remove the auto CC immunity from chains, instead allow players to break free from it.

Tbh chains should do the pull and stun the opponent for 2 seconds. Have them wrapped up in chains.

GreenSoup2HoT

DKsUnite wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Making Unrelenting Grip more reliable would vastly help DK out.

Remove the ministun on chains, remove the snare immunity on dodge-roll (it was dumb to begin with. It only impacted people foolish enough to not run Forward momentum/shuffle anyway), adjust the height restrictions on unrelenting grip. Let the disruption class actually... disrupt the enemy.

Remove the auto CC immunity from chains, instead allow players to break free from it.

Tbh chains should do the pull and stun the opponent for 2 seconds. Have them wrapped up in chains.

What would the dk do after he wraps them up in chains?

DKsUnite

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

DKsUnite wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

Making Unrelenting Grip more reliable would vastly help DK out.

Remove the ministun on chains, remove the snare immunity on dodge-roll (it was dumb to begin with. It only impacted people foolish enough to not run Forward momentum/shuffle anyway), adjust the height restrictions on unrelenting grip. Let the disruption class actually... disrupt the enemy.

Remove the auto CC immunity from chains, instead allow players to break free from it.

Tbh chains should do the pull and stun the opponent for 2 seconds. Have them wrapped up in chains.

What would the dk do after he wraps them up in chains?

Whip the life out of them

PainfulFAFA

DKsUnite wrote: »

Please make chains reliable again.

Please give cinder storm a disorient like what the old eruption had.

Increase the range of talons

Make frag shield do damage on break for all people with it on (reduce damage though obviously)

Change corrupting pollen from warden to minor defile. Make standard useful in group pvp again.

this so much
Bring back oldskool Cinderstorm (dodgechance) and chains and fragmented shield

Qbiken

TheHsN wrote: »

I guess it was Ethaniel ...go you tube watch him and learn how to play DK and kill al people infront of you... PLS dont offence ...If a one guy can make it thats mean u dont know how to play. And BlobESO was killing with DK to...And Since more than 3 years i play this game DK always good in PVP

Do not use PvP montages as arguments if a class is good/balanced or whatever. They´re for entertaining and it´s not fun watching someone wipe constantly. I´m not questioning these players skill, both blobs and Etaniel are very good at PvP and I enjoy watching their videos from time to time.

Morgul667

I like a DK to make a leap at the beginning of a fight, can give you a nice advantage

But they could use some love

Derra

DK is back with a vengeance for smaller groups though.

What role do you think they could fill without becoming completely OP for smaller groups again?

Kronuxx

I've mained stamDK for so long, and I've seen the shift in our usefulness. The problem with DK's is despite being tanky, our mobility is severely lacking unless we go vampire. And in terms of damage output, we underperform because of lacking class passives as compared to Templar, NB, and Sorc.

DKsUnite

Derra wrote: »

DK is back with a vengeance for smaller groups though.

What role do you think they could fill without becoming completely OP for smaller groups again?

I feel like their role has and will always be CC + debuff. So to expand upon what i suggest earlier...

Make banner more desireable. Reduce might's cost to 200 again. Change warden's corrupting pollen to minor defile. Major defile on an aoe spammable is a bit much but it makes sense on banner.

Make chains more desireable (wont effect small scale alot but would be nice for large scale).

Give cinder storm a disorient like what the old eruption had. It makes them stronger in both applications because it exposes templars and people generally holding block but its something unique that only the DK has.

Most of these things wouldn't make them gods in small scale but would give them uniqueness and utility in large scale

IxSTALKERxI

I agree that DK's have no place in large scale pvp groups. I just read through this thread and thought I'd chime in since there seems to be people that disagree. DK's can still be fun/ useful in small scale like 4 mans - although they're nothing what they used to be.

In larger groups (6+):

As an AoE DPS player - Magicka NB DPS > Magicka DK
As a Defiler - Warden corruping polen > DK standard
As a root spammer - Sorc Encase > talons
As a healer - Warden & Sorc are better at spamming healing springs as they have more useful ultimates. (Trees & Negate)
As an igneous shield spammer - This build got nerfed hard to the point where traditional healing is more effective.
As a rapids spammer - stam sorc has better stamina sustain with dark deal and has a better ultimate (negate).


Conclusion, whilst technically you can still have DK's in a group, you are better off having a different class fill one of those roles. You are gimping yourself by having dk's fill rolls in group.

Feanor

DK standard could use a buff. Unfortunately I didn't play a DK in the days of their reign of supremacy, but seeing all those banners dropping was a glorious sight even if you were on the receiving end. When was the last time you saw a banner in PvP? I can count it on one hand without every finger needed.

Lore_lai

@Derra genuine question - what exactly makes you say that DK is so good in small group (≤4), to make it so that the same player, on another class, wouldn't bring more to the table?

It's something that often comes up in our discussions when we think what to run. And we cannot find a good reason other than that we play for fun and of course ppl will run what they enjoy.

Especially now with Warden that has sooooo easy access to Major Defile, sorc being a much better controller, sets like Wizard's Riposte (if we consider the utility of Maim) etc. etc.

So where does DK stand in all of this?

Dymence

thankyourat wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

And what stops your mNB from running the destro Ult? Honestly, almost everytime I get run over by a pain train some nb skills are in the mix form the destro ulter.

Nothing stops a mnb from running the destro ult same with magdk nothing stops them from using the destro ultimate, but sorc is an overall stronger choice. You can dealt for any magicka build into a raid and the raid will still be strong but mag sorc would be the best choice which is my point. Why run a mag dk or a magblade instead of a mag sorc from a large scale pvp perspective

Magsorc or mDK with destro doesn't come anywhere near the damage output of a bomblade.

That's only because bombblades build that way they usually wear all damage sets and divine armor pieces. They really are best at bombing unaware players It's more of a bomb and run away playstyle as well. A magblade in a raid would be much better in a support role than a bomber role because everyone will have destro ultimate, a bomber is completely unnecessary.

You obviously have no idea about organized large scale PVP raids

Derra

Lore_lai wrote: »

@Derra genuine question - what exactly makes you say that DK is so good in small group (≤4), to make it so that the same player, on another class, wouldn't bring more to the table?

It's something that often comes up in our discussions when we think what to run. And we cannot find a good reason other than that we play for fun and of course ppl will run what they enjoy.

Especially now with Warden that has sooooo easy access to Major Defile, sorc being a much better controller, sets like Wizard's Riposte (if we consider the utility of Maim) etc. etc.

So where does DK stand in all of this?

I´m only talking groupsizes up to 4. You can´t afford to have specific roles in that kind of group.

If i want to provide control on a magsorc i have to build for that to some extend. For a DK it comes naturally. Also DKs need much less support while being able to take pressure from the group.
They´re currently in a position where they´re much tankier than i am on my sorc but at the same time when left alone have almost the same killing potential (talking light armor 5 impreg 5 desertrose) and the best aoe pressure in the game outside of bombblades.

They put enemies in the position where they don´t want to attack the DK but really need to attack the DK.

Lore_lai

@Derra - yes, I mentioned "≤4" (equal or smaller than)
That is pretty much the grp size I usually play in.

I know you can't afford specific roles like in a larger group, but I still think a sorc is a better controller because damn, you can tell the difference when you even only add in Negate.

AoE pressure? We've been running with stam warden and I can tell you it feels good to have AoE MAJOR Breach AND Fracture (unblockable BTW)on top of a very good AoE ulti with a CC + on demand Major Defile. Oh and Warden can even support other grp members better via heals if needed.
Haven't tried with Mag Warden yet, but I'm sure it can work pretty well.

The argument that you can't go dedicated in something works both ways - all members must be self reliant, but must also be able to provide support for team-mates.

Aztlan

This is disheartening. Thank you for bringing it up again. As a DK, I feel like I'm doing fairly well solo or small group and then mostly useless in larger groups. I racked my brain and came up with an ulti-gen build to cast Warhorn as often as possible, but it really isn't fun to be a toothless utility player.

All DKs should roam Cyrodiil in massive werewolf packs, wreaking vengeance and leaving a path of destruction wherever they go.

Derra

Lore_lai wrote: »

@Derra - yes, I mentioned "≤4" (equal or smaller than)
That is pretty much the grp size I usually play in.

I know you can't afford specific roles like in a larger group, but I still think a sorc is a better controller because damn, you can tell the difference when you even only add in Negate.

AoE pressure? We've been running with stam warden and I can tell you it feels good to have AoE MAJOR Breach AND Fracture (unblockable BTW)on top of a very good AoE ulti with a CC + on demand Major Defile. Oh and Warden can even support other grp members better via heals if needed.
Haven't tried with Mag Warden yet, but I'm sure it can work pretty well.

The argument that you can't go dedicated in something works both ways - all members must be self reliant, but must also be able to provide support for team-mates.

We couldn´t make an offensive magwarden work the (admittedly few) times we tried.
A DK is just much more threatening than a stamwarden (imo) but that would mean they compete for a spot in the first place.
I´d probably run sorc warden (as support) dk nb if i had a choice.

You´re right that DK is the only char that can´t grpsupport and i hate that about them - but if they were to get a really good grputility spell in their current state of relative power they´d outclass most alternatives by miles imo.

Kilandros

DKsUnite wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DK is back with a vengeance for smaller groups though.

What role do you think they could fill without becoming completely OP for smaller groups again?

I feel like their role has and will always be CC + debuff. So to expand upon what i suggest earlier...

Make banner more desireable. Reduce might's cost to 200 again. Change warden's corrupting pollen to minor defile. Major defile on an aoe spammable is a bit much but it makes sense on banner.

Make chains more desireable (wont effect small scale alot but would be nice for large scale).

Give cinder storm a disorient like what the old eruption had. It makes them stronger in both applications because it exposes templars and people generally holding block but its something unique that only the DK has.

Most of these things wouldn't make them gods in small scale but would give them uniqueness and utility in large scale

Returning Disorient on Cinder Storm would be amazing. That alone would give DKs an important role.