Sorcs and Favoritism

Edziu

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Well, Dark Deal is overperforming and fits in no way to their new mentality of ressource management.

Minding that every class has a way to return ressources, what other way has a sorc to do just that? DK, NB, Templar don't need to use a channel. Problem is not the skill itself, but rather that it's implemented in a way that doesn't cost you resources if you get interrupted.

problem is that nb sustain skill is geting nerfed into ground to be not worth to spent skill point on this, dk sustaini from passives while using ulti ar skill from 1 class line is screwed, templar? did templar have anything other than only repetance for stamina sustain which requires death body to work and channeled focus for only mag sustain which also ist to strong?
while sorc dark deal is restoring instane amount of resources after just 1 cast in compare to all other classes sustain options

Edziu

Fexelea wrote: »

This is sample data to explain the current timeline you're in.

2014: "Sorcs OP - NERF THEM!"
Zenimax: "Ok" = nerfs sorc

2015: "Sorcs OP - NERF THEM!"
Zenimax: "Ok" = nerfs sorc

2016: "Sorcs OP - NERF THEM!"
Zenimax: "Ok" = nerfs sorc

2017: "Sorcs OP - NERF THEM!" << YOU ARE HERE
Zenimax: tbd

2018: Stay tuned...

* There are several dozen links not included in this short demonstration

2014: you forgot about qq for mag dk godmode, ZO$ nerfed them into ground to be unplayable for over year, sorc maybe got nerf but still very playable

2015: here I dont remember to much and Im to lazy now to search for more...but as I remember when sorc got nerf it also wasnt to big to be inplayable like other classes

2016: here was funny, nb was on top for just 1 patch after being nonstop on bottom, they nerfed him and after nerf we are still nonstop on bottom in pve and outisde ganking (except magnb in just duels) sorc got nerf? maybe but still he was never on bottom and was nonstop playable

2017: sorc op like never because lack in other classes, templar...he was geting some buffs since game release but after 1 buff he was getting 2 nerfs after, magdk was the best melee DD and required big support to have sustain etc and ofc was in limited place for melee DD on trials, now sorc in range with better shields is doing better dps than melee lol #Balanced
nb nonstop on bottom of everything in pve and still getting nerfs WTF?
new patch on PTS and while all other classes are under sorc they are still getting nerfs while sorc on top of everything not touched? deal with it

BohnT

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Well, Dark Deal is overperforming and fits in no way to their new mentality of ressource management.

Minding that every class has a way to return ressources, what other way has a sorc to do just that? DK, NB, Templar don't need to use a channel. Problem is not the skill itself, but rather that it's implemented in a way that doesn't cost you resources if you get interrupted.

Yes but every other class has to do much more to regain resources. Nb has to attack enemies to restore 1k stam magicka with 1 light attack - - - > can't use it while running away

Dk has to use ultimate or spam expensive earthen heart abilities to regain only 5% stamina - - - > very hard to use while running away as stamdk can't spam igneous shields and magdk doesn't have a huge stam pool

Templar has repentance which forces you to kill enemies to be effective - - - > not working while running away

Sorc has dark deal that can be used even during dodge rolls and while walking. DD restores huge amounts of stam and health for a very low cost and synergises way too good with bolt escape and dark deal has no counterplay to it. A bash doesn't punish you in any way
----> over performing as it gives you lots of resources in 1 second, can be cast without enemies around, you loose nothing when you are being interrupted

Valencer

First problem is that dark deal wasnt touched whereas every other class has had its' sustain abilities/passives nerfed into the ground.

Second problem is that theyre nerfing every mechanic/ability that benefits from stacking max stamina but meanwhile shields still scale off max magicka. Also, Im pretty sure harness magicka's magicka return scales off max magicka too and that hasnt been touched either (not really maining sorcerer anymore so someone please confirm!)

Stamden

Magıc wrote: »

And, expect sorc nerfs in the upcoming pts cycles anyway. Can't possibly expect Zos to leave sorc untouched, just like last patch where they actually spread the buffs/nerfs over the WHOLE pts instead of just sticking *** all in one cycle.

Every single patch I end up thinking that. "Surely they are going to do something about Sorcs.. they are godlike right now". Then ZoS ends up either a). Not touching them or b). Buffing them. Look at last patch for example.

At this point, I expect nothing from Zenimax. They will not touch that class even if it will be the death of them.

Derra

actosh wrote: »

Well, Dark Deal is overperforming and fits in no way to their new mentality of ressource management.

easy darkdeal fix: everything stays as is but the resource return happens over the course of 470 mag/stam per second over 10s instead of 4670 at once.

Jawasa

@Magıc Seem that you completly missed the part that i said on azura. Cost incress compaired to azura atm is 5% if you are in 5 la or did i miss some other huge change to cost in no cp if that is the case then i'm very sorry my post is irrelevant.

Micah_Bayer

Edziu wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

sorceresr never got big nerf like other classes, example: magdk since game start was godmode, then nerf to the ground and unplayalbe for over year, templar have buff an nerf but big nerfs very hurting like now stamplar is unplayable in vpe since few months and now more unplayable, nb similiar, once was good and then now until now and nb is stil worst class for dps while sorc was damn never that down with nerf like other classes and this is balance? while very other class was up and at the bottom sorc was never at bottom, only as average or on top

Because Sorc was never over the top. It was always average and sometimes almost on top.

yeah, he was never on bottom and was sometime on top and mostly just as average while every other class was for few patches on bottom, as I wrote, mag dk was unplayabe over year, nb was good at 1 patch and now what? now we have nb who is from last few patches on bottom in every espect in pve, mayb vMA can be exception but its doesnt matter as for solo pve and we have stamplar who whill struggle more in pve than in last few patches like nb but stamplar is more unplayabe.

I have seen how sorc awlays always was playable on on not bad spot if not on very good spot while very other class had their time with struggle to just play in anything, sorc had never this problem

So because sorcerer is not on bottom or top you want to nerf it because it hasn't been nerfed to the ground?

Micah_Bayer

Killset wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Wait what? Where are you getting the fact that Magicka Sorcs were "god tier" in One Tamriel? This was most definitely not the case. Magicka Templars and DKs were better back then. Now? Magicka Sorcs are still worse than DKs. Pets Sorcs are the strongest class at the moment in AOE and Cleave damage, DKs still outparse them in single target (and single target is more important). Just because you see the highest parses on YT from Pet Sorcs, doesn't mean they are the best. There are plenty of numbers you don't see.

In PvP, as far as shields go, go make a Sorc (cause you obviously don't play one), and shield stack while there are 4 people beating on you. You'll see that you'll vaporise in a matter of seconds if you don't start to kite and play skillfully (and your magicka will vanish too). Shields are strong in 1v1. The more people there are, the worse they get. The cost of shields is already pretty high (roughly 3k per shield on average) and you have to stack 2 or 3 of them every 6 seconds. In Morrowind? Shields will cost 16% more magicka. Try spamming that while maintaining the same damage output as you have now. You won't. The Sorc survivability doesn't come so much from shield stacking, but from Streak for kiting and repositionning, while Healing Ward heals you back to full health, and at that point you're ready to re-engage. Daedric Mines also play a huge part in Sorcs' ability to move, kite and survive. Then there's obviously Pirate Skeleton which was a mistake since the start. Fact is: Sorcs don't have a viable defensive mechanic aside from running away and shield stacking (cause they are the only class with a class shield). Do I like that mechanic? No I ***ing hate it. Is it OP? In certain situations it is, in others its not, including outnumbered situations.

So you provide absolutely no valid arguments about the fact that Magicka Sorcs or Shields are OP.

Wait. What? The more people beating on a Sorc the worse they get?! Does ZOS know this? All joking aside, this holds true for every class, why should Sorcs be any different? And I get that you are saying they aren't any different. It's just that Sorcs can mitigate better than many classes while still being able to lay down crazy damage. This is where the problem is at it's core. This is why there were a million posts complaining about Sorcs before the patch notes were even released. Now that they are released, it is like a slap in the face to anyone who doesn't main Sorc.

Stamplar. Continue to beat down on them for a minute. Burst heal to full they cast a power of the light. Dawn break and then jabs. Ded sorc. They have crazy survivability and no draw backs. They hardly have any regeneration because they kill so fast they must repent the bodies in one combo

Edziu

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

sorceresr never got big nerf like other classes, example: magdk since game start was godmode, then nerf to the ground and unplayalbe for over year, templar have buff an nerf but big nerfs very hurting like now stamplar is unplayable in vpe since few months and now more unplayable, nb similiar, once was good and then now until now and nb is stil worst class for dps while sorc was damn never that down with nerf like other classes and this is balance? while very other class was up and at the bottom sorc was never at bottom, only as average or on top

Because Sorc was never over the top. It was always average and sometimes almost on top.

yeah, he was never on bottom and was sometime on top and mostly just as average while every other class was for few patches on bottom, as I wrote, mag dk was unplayabe over year, nb was good at 1 patch and now what? now we have nb who is from last few patches on bottom in every espect in pve, mayb vMA can be exception but its doesnt matter as for solo pve and we have stamplar who whill struggle more in pve than in last few patches like nb but stamplar is more unplayabe.

I have seen how sorc awlays always was playable on on not bad spot if not on very good spot while very other class had their time with struggle to just play in anything, sorc had never this problem

So because sorcerer is not on bottom or top you want to nerf it because it hasn't been nerfed to the ground?

maybe, some...but more I want true balance, now when sorc is on top of everything this everything is getting nerf except sorc so sorc is going to be more powerfull over rest so why ffs nerf him finally to give finnaly chance other classes which are now screwed into useless now

why sorc shouldnt be nerfed now when ZO$ want to nerf everything because of power creep? if they will buff other classes over sorc without nerf then will be more power creep so much better will be ffs nerf this stupid sorc and unnerf other classes

Dracane

Derra wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Well, Dark Deal is overperforming and fits in no way to their new mentality of ressource management.

easy darkdeal fix: everything stays as is but the resource return happens over the course of 470 mag/stam per second over 10s instead of 4670 at once.

That would enable magicka Sorcs to use dark conversion in combat. Right now, you must be imbacile if you were to use dark conversion mid combat as a mag sorc. But just doing 1 cast every 10 seconds to safe me some regen, that would be very very good imo and convenient. Though....that would also mean no more streak spam for me

KingJ

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Wait what? Where are you getting the fact that Magicka Sorcs were "god tier" in One Tamriel? This was most definitely not the case. Magicka Templars and DKs were better back then. Now? Magicka Sorcs are still worse than DKs. Pets Sorcs are the strongest class at the moment in AOE and Cleave damage, DKs still outparse them in single target (and single target is more important). Just because you see the highest parses on YT from Pet Sorcs, doesn't mean they are the best. There are plenty of numbers you don't see.

In PvP, as far as shields go, go make a Sorc (cause you obviously don't play one), and shield stack while there are 4 people beating on you. You'll see that you'll vaporise in a matter of seconds if you don't start to kite and play skillfully (and your magicka will vanish too). Shields are strong in 1v1. The more people there are, the worse they get. The cost of shields is already pretty high (roughly 3k per shield on average) and you have to stack 2 or 3 of them every 6 seconds. In Morrowind? Shields will cost 16% more magicka. Try spamming that while maintaining the same damage output as you have now. You won't. The Sorc survivability doesn't come so much from shield stacking, but from Streak for kiting and repositionning, while Healing Ward heals you back to full health, and at that point you're ready to re-engage. Daedric Mines also play a huge part in Sorcs' ability to move, kite and survive. Then there's obviously Pirate Skeleton which was a mistake since the start. Fact is: Sorcs don't have a viable defensive mechanic aside from running away and shield stacking (cause they are the only class with a class shield). Do I like that mechanic? No I ***ing hate it. Is it OP? In certain situations it is, in others its not, including outnumbered situations.

So you provide absolutely no valid arguments about the fact that Magicka Sorcs or Shields are OP.

Wait. What? The more people beating on a Sorc the worse they get?! Does ZOS know this? All joking aside, this holds true for every class, why should Sorcs be any different? And I get that you are saying they aren't any different. It's just that Sorcs can mitigate better than many classes while still being able to lay down crazy damage. This is where the problem is at it's core. This is why there were a million posts complaining about Sorcs before the patch notes were even released. Now that they are released, it is like a slap in the face to anyone who doesn't main Sorc.

Stamplar. Continue to beat down on them for a minute. Burst heal to full they cast a power of the light. Dawn break and then jabs. Ded sorc. They have crazy survivability and no draw backs. They hardly have any regeneration because they kill so fast they must repent the bodies in one combo

Stamplar don't have have access to a burst heal only HOT.Also after the stamplar use POTL on you Block the DB and streak through him healing ward hardened you shouldn't be a cap and will be fine.

Derra

Dracane wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Well, Dark Deal is overperforming and fits in no way to their new mentality of ressource management.

easy darkdeal fix: everything stays as is but the resource return happens over the course of 470 mag/stam per second over 10s instead of 4670 at once.

That would enable magicka Sorcs to use dark conversion in combat. Right now, you must be imbacile if you were to use dark conversion mid combat as a mag sorc. But just doing 1 cast every 10 seconds to safe me some regen, that would be very very good imo and convenient. Though....that would also mean no more streak spam for me

Why would that enable you to run it then and not now?
The only difference would be that you could not use it more than 6 times a minute when only looking at resources (the heal would stay the same).

But what´s keeping you from casting dark deal now occasionally in combat? If you get 10x470 mag or 1x4700 as long as you don´t spam it it does not really make a difference.

Tommy_The_Gun

For the amount of DMG sorc can do they are way too tanky and way too mobile... What other class can do that ?!
They have:

Streak - for stunning enemies (Yes enemy players too. A whole groups of them). And if necessary escape faster than a sprinting mount - (compare it to NB Teleport Strike which used to stun other players but now it briefly snares them - yes it has different effect on players & different effect on NPC )
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Teleport+Strike

Haunting Curse - spam this to fire & forget enemies (yes players too). Un-dodge-able, un-block-able dmg that additionally pulls you out of stealth (even thou there is nothing like that in skill description it pulls you out of stealth 2 times).

Conjured Ward - spam this to have a dmg shield that is not affected by critical dmg bonus and penetration. Additionally it stacks so even if you are fully DPS build (10K health only) - you still have 15 - 20K shield... So to "reach" to your health bar other player will have to deal that amount of dmg (with no crit & penetration bonus) fast enough.. because otherwise sorc can just spam it again and have almost infinity health bar...
So... sorc can go full DPS and still you need like 30K dmg to kill one...
#Balance

Merlin13KAGL

Vosital wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Sorcs have non-existent sustain. With the PTS patch, their sustain requirements put them in a position to rely upon healers to a degree that can no longer be sustained. Healers have less sustain to meet the demands of a Sorc. Sorcs got hurt by this patch - A LOT. Just because we didn't have a section with our abilities listed on the patch notes, doesn't mean we got hit the worst. Templars on the PTS are honestly right where Sorcs are right now on the live server, but as I said before, healers aren't in a position to really sustain the DPS needs of Sorcs and now Templars. (DK's are just about there, too.)

You understand that class balance is relative, right? ALL the classes in the game have to deal with the sustain issues. But you need to understand:

1. Sorcs are already the best PvP class right now
2. Other classes got direct nerfs on top of the sustain issues
3. Other classes already have terrible sustain (DKs in particular), and post-patch will be unplayable. Meanwhile Sorcs have amazing tools to sustain in comparison, so it is not as much of a problem.

Again, because all of you Sorc mains don't seem to understand: Class balance is all relative. Obviously the nerfs to light armor and removal of Magician effect you, they affect everyone.

Really? What non-weapon passive, race-passive, armor-passive "amazing tools to sustain" would those be? I count Dark Exachange (which has counters and won't work if that pool is empty...)

Neighbor wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

I even tried 50k magic in NO CP, they just do not scale high without being amplified by bastion, as they should. That is the whole point of having the bastion tree.

Bastion shouldn't exist. There is no reason for shields to be so massive in the first place.

I love how it is the norm in this game to have a shield that is the size of your healthbar. As if that is how it is supposed to be. Look at any competitive game and you will notice how careful they are to make shields too overbearing.

Shields should be supplemental. Not some temporary (or in this game, permanent) thing that turns you into a monster with 2x the effective health.

Bastion exists and high shields exist because if you're in 5 LA, the other guy generally has 2x, sometimes 3x the mitigation you do. I notice no one takes issue with that.

BohnT

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Vosital wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Sorcs have non-existent sustain. With the PTS patch, their sustain requirements put them in a position to rely upon healers to a degree that can no longer be sustained. Healers have less sustain to meet the demands of a Sorc. Sorcs got hurt by this patch - A LOT. Just because we didn't have a section with our abilities listed on the patch notes, doesn't mean we got hit the worst. Templars on the PTS are honestly right where Sorcs are right now on the live server, but as I said before, healers aren't in a position to really sustain the DPS needs of Sorcs and now Templars. (DK's are just about there, too.)

You understand that class balance is relative, right? ALL the classes in the game have to deal with the sustain issues. But you need to understand:

1. Sorcs are already the best PvP class right now
2. Other classes got direct nerfs on top of the sustain issues
3. Other classes already have terrible sustain (DKs in particular), and post-patch will be unplayable. Meanwhile Sorcs have amazing tools to sustain in comparison, so it is not as much of a problem.

Again, because all of you Sorc mains don't seem to understand: Class balance is all relative. Obviously the nerfs to light armor and removal of Magician effect you, they affect everyone.

Really? What non-weapon passive, race-passive, armor-passive "amazing tools to sustain" would those be? I count Dark Exachange (which has counters and won't work if that pool is empty...)

Neighbor wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

I even tried 50k magic in NO CP, they just do not scale high without being amplified by bastion, as they should. That is the whole point of having the bastion tree.

Bastion shouldn't exist. There is no reason for shields to be so massive in the first place.

I love how it is the norm in this game to have a shield that is the size of your healthbar. As if that is how it is supposed to be. Look at any competitive game and you will notice how careful they are to make shields too overbearing.

Shields should be supplemental. Not some temporary (or in this game, permanent) thing that turns you into a monster with 2x the effective health.

Bastion exists and high shields exist because if you're in 5 LA, the other guy generally has 2x, sometimes 3x the mitigation you do. I notice no one takes issue with that.

Yes because sorcs ignore this additional mitigation with light armor passive and sharp.
And all other classes also have only one class defining resource restoring ability and all of those got nerfed into the ground.
And the counterplay to dark deal is laughable you have to interrupt a sorc that can easily streak 2 times and cast dark deal without any chance to interrupt him and even if you interrupted him he has no punishment for it he can simply use dark deal again until your stam for bashing and sprinting has run dry

TheHsN

i hope a rock drops ur head as big as a SORC....

Witar

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

you still have 15 - 20K shield

You can have shield just as big at any other mag class in 7 light.

Lord_Eomer

Some newbie just wanna nerf every class to their newbie level!

KingJ

Witar wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

you still have 15 - 20K shield

You can have shield just as big at any other mag class in 7 light.

Yes but only sorcs can stack 2 15-20k shields.

Zarrakon

KingJ wrote: »

Witar wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

you still have 15 - 20K shield

You can have shield just as big at any other mag class in 7 light.

Yes but only sorcs can stack 2 15-20k shields.

Seriously, have any of you tested shield stacking on the PTS? Or have you literally ever played a sorcerer? Do you really not get how fast your magicka goes down on the PTS if you cast 2 shields? Do you even know how strong their shields really are in PvP?

It's very, very hard to get a 15k shield in PvP (you need 100 bastion + inner light + bound armor + pet w/ necropotence + altmer/breton/dunmer), and even then only hardened ward will hit 15k in PvP. Harness Magicka will still be around 12k. And this is with 6 slots taken up across both bars, not including the slots for the wards themselves. If you actually want to slot 2 wards, you're down to 2 slots for damage abilities. Maybe haunting curse and streak? Or daedric prey and streak? And huh, weird, it seems like we've run out of slots to actually burst other players down with...

If you say 'okay, sure, I don't need bound armor', you lose 1-2k on each ward. If you don't want to run necropotence or the pet, you start losing like 3-5k on the wards. And in any case, you're still going to run out of magicka extremely quickly without a sustain set like lich after the PTS changes. And even if you do run something like lich, the new siphoner passive will probably destroy you anyway.

For PvE, the reason magicka characters in general have wards is because stamina characters have higher mitigation and can roll dodge and/or sprint and/or block much more reliably. But running 2 wards in PvE (and in PvP...) is just wasteful, and really harness magicka is better than the sorcerer ward (the extra ward in hardened doesn't really matter for anything) unless you have a pet who needs to be warded too.

Strider_Roshin

Derra wrote: »

actosh wrote: »

Well, Dark Deal is overperforming and fits in no way to their new mentality of ressource management.

easy darkdeal fix: everything stays as is but the resource return happens over the course of 470 mag/stam per second over 10s instead of 4670 at once.

If only Siphoning Strikes was this good...

ParaNostram

I swear, according to the forums Wrobel has the most inconsistent ability to pick a favorite ever.

Subversus

Dude above is trying to say that sorcs are fine cause they run out of magicka fast on the pts while stacking shields. Uhm hello sorcs aren't the only ones stacking shields, but they are THE ONLY shieldstacker that didn't get class specific nerfs. Come again, tell my magblade how bad your shield stacking sustain is.

@Zarrakon

But no really, at this point this becomes a problem with the actual changes than with the classes, and we're just throwing *** at each other. No nerfs should negate like 80% of the playstyles and builds in a game that is bragging about the freedom to create your own build.

Vosital

ParaNostram wrote: »

I swear, according to the forums Wrobel has the most inconsistent ability to pick a favorite ever.

Not really, it's very clearly Sorc and always has been. The biggest problem is, it isn't just one guy. Even Rich mains Mag Sorc. The whole dev team seems to from the looks of it.

I guess when they first created their characters years ago, not a single person was like "Uhh guys maybe we all shouldn't play the same class".

MercTheMage

Oh shut the *** up, sorcs have gotten more nerfs over the past 2 years than any other class. If you dont have anything better to with your time, learn to knit.

Edziu

MercTheMage wrote: »

Oh shut the *** up, sorcs have gotten more nerfs over the past 2 years than any other class. If you dont have anything better to with your time, learn to knit.

joaaocaampos

joaaocaampos wrote: »

Sorcerer

• Storm Calling
  • Surge: Reduced the healing of this ability and its morphs by approximately 75%.

Developer Comments:

Although Sorcerer is our favorite class, we all agree that healing this ability is very powerful.

jo_hanes

All in all sorcs are not over powered whether you main a magika sorc or a stamina variety you have chosen to embrace the suck and make it work. be it with cp and or gear sets to keep your blue bar happy.

Kikke

I love how 99% of this thread is NBs screaming that sorcs is stronger than them. Why not ask for buffs for your own class instead of asking for nerfs for another?