Update 13 - Sneak peak notes

Astanphaeus

Armitas wrote: »

List the cancer builds on magicka?

• Grothdar...maybe? cause spamming shields is now a damage ability

I think you meant Infernal Guardian? Gothdarr procs off damage, not shields.


But I will say I don't mind a nerf to PvE DPS. Hopefully it will result in less stack and burn while ignoring fight mechanics.

Pirsius

Seriously, increasing difficulty is fine in certain context, but don't adversely affect PvE trying to solve PVP issues. First you increase the health of the vast majority of bosses in Update 12 to promote group-play, this I believe is a great approach. Removing crits from proc sets, is NOT how you do this. If you wanted to fix proc sets in Cyrodiil, do so in Cyrodiil and keep the crit capability for the rest to your playerbase. Quit trying to make shortcuts and balance the problems both within PVP and PVE without adversely affecting the other. All those poor monster helms.

Taleof2Cities

Jaronking wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

As before, we have to thank the YouTube PvP streamers for this PvE blow.

It always is the same trend:
Powerful YouTube streamers will become even more powerful (AoE+).
Powerless players (happy with a little monster set) will get less powerful (Proc-).

No pvp player asked for this.
This nerf is mostly affecting pve.
In pvp impen was reducing crit already.
This is intended as a pve nerf it is not planned as a pvp nerf.

tbh am agreeing with you.This is way more of a pve nerf then a PVP nerf.

Let's wait until we see the PTS patch notes before we complain further about the effect of Update 13 on proc sets for PvE ... it is already speculative and getting out of hand.

"No PvP player asked for this." Seriously? Well, if you haven't been in the forums the last three months, you probably wouldn't have seen any complaints from PvP players about proc sets ... but that would also mean you've been living under a rock since OneTamriel.

Elsonso

ginoboehm wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

DoccEff wrote: »

Kr'agh: 3022 to 1717 dps ---> -43.2%.
Red Mountain: 2623 to 1446 dps ---> -44.9%
Viper (who even uses this for PvE?): 2587 to 1616 dps. ---> -37.5%

48079 to 44548 = -7.3%

There is more to life than proc crits, and if that is all people are seeing, then I can see why it needs to be changed.

you realize that this is exactly what we are saying? pve proc sets are not a problem. nerfing them for pve cannot be the goal ( and they are getting majorily nerfed). in pvp proc sets are a major problem. their crit is not the main issue there

I suspect that PVE proc crit is a lot more of a problem than people are willing to admit. Especially since we don't have the full story and don't know what else they are doing.

altemriel

Armitas wrote: »

I'm still mulling over the proc set nerf, but I wanted to say the main reason, even larger than proc stacking is the way that stam procsets front load for huge opening damage. No one complains about skoria because its randomly occurring damage, not reliable damage. It isn't incorporated into an opener. Its the stacked and reliable opening damage of stam builds that stack proc/trigger sets that is the core issue with proc sets. If you will recal the complaints started with velidreth and viper remember? It is stamina based proc set problem not a general problem.

List the cancer builds on magicka?

• Grothdar...maybe? cause spamming shields is now a damage ability

Now list the cancer on stamina

• Huntcancer
• Tremorcancer
• Viper cancer
• Velidreth cancer
• Selene double cancer.
• any I missed

^your problem is right up there, not procs in general. Add autododge, perma roll, root/snare immunity, double hot ticks from rally/vigor upwards of 5k a tick coupled with tree hugging LOS and massive burst stacking potential and you begin to see exactly where the PvP became broken.

Malubeth cancer

Armitas

Astanphaeus wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

List the cancer builds on magicka?

• Grothdar...maybe? cause spamming shields is now a damage ability

I think you meant Infernal Guardian? Gothdarr procs off damage, not shields.


But I will say I don't mind a nerf to PvE DPS. Hopefully it will result in less stack and burn while ignoring fight mechanics.

yeah, thanks, making the change

altemriel wrote: »

Malubeth cancer

I can't really put that on a single side, but yeah.

Qbiken

Of all "solutions" you could´´ve done to procsets you choose this one?????
I don´t use procsets in PvP but for PvE (Looking at you my wellearned Kragh-mask) it´s a big part of my dps....

If you remove critchance at least you need to increase the damage.
Or you´could have just removed crits from PvP and kept it for PvE

Once again PvP-rants win........

altemriel

PLEASE ZOS, LISTEN TO THE FEEDBACK IN THIS TREAD!!







@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_MattFiror @Wrobel

Lady_Rosabella

@ZOS_RichLambert This is getting so old, why change proc sets in PVE? I mean you have now given monsters/bosses more hp and still you leave us with the same amount of attribute points to be put into our own health (or magicka and stamina), now you want to nerf our sets in PVE, again? Honestly why can't your people put a little more work into making these things not proc in only PVP.

And before all you pvp'ers start bashing me, I pvp myself. But the one thing that brought me to this game at launch in 2014 was the fact that I can do both, PVP and PVE, when I choose too. So.....the pvp'er in me agrees this nerf needs to happen BUT only in PVP. Our guild runs a lot of pledges and trials and yes we run with some lower level/cp members to teach them the mechanics as well as help them get the Monster sets and armor sets they want to help them. Now what's the point?

ZOS I am sure you have someone on your team that can figure out a way to make the PVP population happy and not drive out more of the PVE population. Just sayin!!

jakeedmundson

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Enjoy your holidays and please be safe on New Years!

.....Don't tell me how to live, Rich.

Ghost-Shot

Great changes @ZOS_RichLambert. I pvp and pve and I didn't like the proc sets period, they are just boring. They make pvp no fun and they trivialize pve content, let the pve'rs cry about having to learn to use their abilities and dont roll this one back!

Wizzo91

Very happy to see some communication from ZoS between DLCs - thanks @ZOS_RichLambert !

To the changes:

Pretty happy with most of it! I don't see the problem with proc sets not criting in PvE, because IMO they are overperforming in PvE. This will open up some build diversity (I pvp a lot and have completed all of the PvE-Content on vet, so no bias here).

What I am missing is a adjustment to HA (nerf) or buff of LA and MA (we all know those templars that are near invincible or the high burst some HA builds can dish out with high resistances )

Also the RNG-Fest that ESO is at the moment, mainly regarding weapons in vMA, vDSA, Trials, Overland, Dungeons --> balance traits or Tokensystem.

Sigtric

Durikas75 wrote: »

Reading all these freak out posts about these proc sets not criting only proves that they were really OP in PvP and PvE, and this nerf was needed. A 2p set should not make your build and if did then you were just exploiting a broken mechanic.

So much this

even 5 piece procs. If you can't get by with out crit damage on top of a proc... wow

ManwithBeard9

altemriel wrote: »

PLEASE ZOS, LISTEN TO THE FEEDBACK IN THIS TREAD!!

There is no feedback BECAUSE THERE HAS BEEN NO CONTENT FOR THE PLAYERS TO GIVE FEEDBACK ON.

AlexTech0x

@ZOS_RichLambert so do you really believe Gankers are successful because proc sets can crit and not because a heavy attack and a poison can proc the entire gear?

Again, do you even PvP?

Have people lately ever complained about proc sets being OP from PvE? Do you guys listen to the complaints, watch streams or read the forums? come on, what is this?
To me it sounds ( again ) like you just want to make what you think is best ( and it almost never is ) without care about what experienced players have to say.

Understand it, there is NO way to balance PvP and PvE together without screw one of them up.

Doctordarkspawn

Personally slightly dubious but the fact their not just straight up nerfing the proc sets is good.

Whether or not they will ajust damage accordingly, and how this effects the PVE stuffs, we'll just need to see. Personally hoping this isn't too bad.

However...and I cant stress this enough @ZOS_RichLambert NERFING PVE, FOR PVP'S SAKE, IS NOT, CANNOT BE, WILL NEVER BE, ACCEPTABLE. Dont. If this is going to drastically change PVE for the worse, just dont. We're tired of it.

Dagoth_Rac

Gil.Galad wrote: »

If you want to reduce burst in PVP add a base critical resistance to the battlespirit buff.

That is actually a really good idea. Plus, I feel like it would be fairly easy to implement by the developers, which is always a bonus. Things like having a shared cooldown between proc sets is probably the ideal solution, but tricky to program.

DPShiro

Just make all these bad changes a part of battle spirit already.

quake89

As a PVE player I'm deeply concerned for your ability to understand what the community was asking for ZOS. The changes you are proposing are clearly nerfs to the wrong audience. The community as a whole was complaining about the burst in PVP along with certain skills / skill lines and your decision to remove the ability to crit off a proc set does not or will not solve burst issues.

Instead of adding a global cooldown to proc sets like the community has been asking for you decided to yet again show that you are unable to comprehend the effects that a nerf will have on the other side of the coin. I'll still be able to run widow maker viper and velidrith on my gankblade and insta kill someone with or without that critical damage providing my procs can all go off at once.

what I cant do is have a 50% nerf to my monster sets in a vet trial scenario unless your planning to adjust those to account for the damage loss of my monster sets. I hope that you read your communities response on this because honestly your so far wide of the mark on this its appalling.

Kutsuu

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert do you use impen in pvp? why did you nerf proc sets in pve to the ground and only marginally made them weaker on pvp?

Yep I use impen - even with 7 impen, crits still hurt. On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from my internal testing. (using Viper, Red Mountain and Kra on my stam sorc) I wouldn't call that nerfed into the ground.

Interesting test thanks for doing that. It looks like the DPS from each individual proc was reduced by 40-50% in a PVE environment. They were already close, if not inferior, to non-proc sets so this at the least takes Viper/RM out of the running for PVE DPS.

I like this change for PVP. Just a little concerned that it takes them out of the PVE arena outside of still using monster sets. But I think you will be seeing less 5/3/2(monster)/Maelstrom builds and more 5/5/Maelstrom builds. Maybe that's a good thing.

imwargasmo

every decent monster set has just been completely *** on... thanks Zos.

Force-Siphon

This last patch was focused on PVE and a lot of the changes broke PVP for us and made it incredibly frustrating to even step foot in cyrodiil. People will survive without the proc crits in pve you did it before. Any change to proc sets was needed and at least its something?

but lets be honest the only problem with proc sets was not that they crit (i put velidreth on mag sorc one time and still did significant burst dmg with very little weapon crit), it was the stacking of multiple sets. Why this is still in the cards is beyond me, its what many people in the pvp community actually wanted to see changed...lol no crits. Why not put armor proc sets on a global cooldown? why not change things like tremorscale to be proc'd based on a target being actually taunted instead of just using a taunt as significant dps in pvp? literally anything to stop or tone down the stacking of proc sets. This patch has been a NIGHTMARE for pvp, you make a change to aoe caps to stop "ball groups" when you passively encouraged people to ball up becasue of the proc stacking burst meta that we have dealt with for months? Are you going to tone down destro ult like many people have been asking? or is destro ult part of this new anti-zerg aoe cap change? what skills do you think are going to be used besides destro ult as an aoe that will change how people stack? impulse? steel tornado? prox det? you nerfed those skills. there is one main aoe that groups use in pvp right now and its destro ult. If you didnt want people to ball up so much maybe you should look at the proc burst meta as a whole. No one wants to spread out and small man/solo because they will get bursted down by a proc blade hitting 1 button and letting their gear do the work with multiple damage procs, or get zerged down by destro ults. Removing crits is at least something but many of us wanted more and this is really disappointing.

I actually think it says a lot about the state of pvp that ZOS would put out this preview aimed primarily at the pvp community when generally we know next to nothing before pts...many of us are hoping that the class balance changes make pvp playable again but seriously, you have a lot of work to do if you want to make pvp live up to the standard we were used to for a long time. This patch has been truly miserable and PVP has been 90% frustration and rage basically for the last couple of patches. We've waited SO LONG for ANYTHING to change with this meta, millions of forum posts, etc when other game companies would have balanced these things so much sooner...and you... remove crits on proc sets and change aoe caps? lol

i think you guys spent too much time designing crown crates and forgot to play your own game

Jaronking

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

As before, we have to thank the YouTube PvP streamers for this PvE blow.

It always is the same trend:
Powerful YouTube streamers will become even more powerful (AoE+).
Powerless players (happy with a little monster set) will get less powerful (Proc-).

No pvp player asked for this.
This nerf is mostly affecting pve.
In pvp impen was reducing crit already.
This is intended as a pve nerf it is not planned as a pvp nerf.

tbh am agreeing with you.This is way more of a pve nerf then a PVP nerf.

Let's wait until we see the PTS patch notes before we complain further about the effect of Update 13 on proc sets for PvE ... it is already speculative and getting out of hand.

"No PvP player asked for this." Seriously? Well, if you haven't been in the forums the last three months, you probably wouldn't have seen any complaints from PvP players about proc sets ... but that would also mean you've been living under a rock since OneTamriel.

no I hate proc sets I want them removed from PVp i can link you every thread and am in it saying remove them.No pvper asked for them not to crit PVPERS do not want proc sets to double proc or be able to stack I don't give a dam about proc sets criting i care about getting killed by 3 proc sets in my death recap while your attack only did 3 damage but all your procs did 5-6k damage.
@Taleof2Cities

Preyfar

All I wanted was a Cyro campaign that didn't allow monster helms.

gp1680

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

You mentioned poisons double proc'ing, but you haven't mentioned viper or selene and there multiple procs? I hope they're getting fixed.

The sneak peak isn't a list of all the patch notes. There's lots more fixes coming.

@ZOS_RichLambert

I hope the disconnects in Cyrodil are going to be addressed. That should be a priority. Also, anything related to boosting some of the crafted sets?

AlMcFly

Thanks ZOS for at least trying to resolve the PvP proc issue. Appreciate it.

It would be nice if ZOS made sets act differently in Cyrodiil but I understand why they don't. It's also my understanding that, outside of Trials, there is no content that requires sky high damage procs. The PvE content is incredibly easy already and much of the harder content can be cleared with a non-braindead group. I'm a full-time PvEr, and honestly barely ever PvP. Other PvErs are mad that their "l33t deeps numbers" are going to be smaller. It really makes no major difference at all though. That boss we were able to burn down in 40 seconds may take a full minute now. Big freakin' whoopity doo. I'll gladly take that over being one-shot killed in every single PvP ground-skirmish. :rolls eyes:

Ankael07

There are about 7 sets that does insane burst damage when combined.

Velindreth , Viper, Widowmaker, Red Mountain,Tremorscale, Selene and Eternal Hunt.

I've made a quick search and counted the sets that contain healing and damaging which will receive crit nerf.There are approximately 70 sets that will NOT critically damage enemy or heal ally be cause of these 7 sets that does burst damage in pvp.

If Im missing something please explain it to me Rich.

OrphanHelgen

Pirsius wrote: »

Seriously, increasing difficulty is fine in certain context, but don't adversely affect PvE trying to solve PVP issues. First you increase the health of the vast majority of bosses in Update 12 to promote group-play, this I believe is a great approach. Removing crits from proc sets, is NOT how you do this. If you wanted to fix proc sets in Cyrodiil, do so in Cyrodiil and keep the crit capability for the rest to your playerbase. Quit trying to make shortcuts and balance the problems both within PVP and PVE without adversely affecting the other. All those poor monster helms.

Yeah, moster sets are a really interesting and unique design in this game, and main reason to log into this game daily, is to do pledges, which gives monster head piece at end and undaunted key with a monster shoulder. Like it or not, the truth is, removing crit from monster sets, making stacking wpn and spell dmg more value, and the monster sets are RIP in pve. PVP will still use them and laugh about the change, because like others have stated here, its not the crit from them that is the problem.

In pve, I prob lost some k of dps, not the end of the world, but it kind of take the progress feeling away from me when putting pve'ers a step back instead.

Paraflex

Good changes thanks for giving out some info. PvE players are hilarious with all the crying going on. Changes happen in all video games guys let them continue to make improvements without harsh criticism it's not an easy job to do especially with people being critical of all the decisions being made. PvE will survive and adapt.

@ZOS_RichLambert

Joy_Division

To of all the PvE players that don't pull 40K+ DPS and have spent hours and hours and precious gold mats finding the perfect monster helms, I apologize for being part of the "PvP crowd" that just prompted ZoS to slap you with a dubious and unnecessary broad-brushed nerf.