Update 13 - Sneak peak notes

ginoboehm

Derra wrote: »

Belicourt wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober
Hello Mr Lambert,
I think you understood our requests wrongly. Proc sets are a major problem in PVP not PVE you nerf them major for PVE and only marginally for PVP.
THIS IS NOT WHAT ANYBODY WANTS.
Look in pvp we wear a lot of impen to reduce crit damage. In pve we use thief or shadow to push the two crit stats(not even talking about the sets and traits who focus on crit). Now if you let those proc sets not crit you hugely nerf pve and leave pvp at it is (more or less)
Ofc it will help somehow and it better than nothing because especially gankblades stack sooo much crit that you cannot mitigate it all with impen . nonetheless it is a silly change.The goal cannot be to make a pve huge nerf to help pvp a bit(if at all)
My opinion:
"Damage in my opionion should be reliable and skill should determin the outcome not silly procs that proc from simple light attacks and from 3 different sets"

Please don't waste another patch with bad thought out changes and on mechanics you do not completly have thought through.
Talk to knowledgable people like @sypherpk @FENGRUSH @Etaniel @Blobsky @Derra and leaders of big and good pvp guilds like smooky and @Hexys
Thank you for your time.

That moment when derra just negated your argument...

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maybe the nerf to proc sets in PVE was intended and not just another nerf cause of PVP? Just maybe. I mean considering that most of those sets are OP af and there is no reason to run anything else then a nerf should be expected right?

Arguable they were overperforming in both scenarios. So you could be right.

Well i don´t think it´s the most elegant solution. It does not adress proccstacking and especially viper + monster2p is still going to be insanely good.
But it will achieve something. When i die to proccs in pvp it´s crits in an estimated 70% of the cases.

I´m also not convinced proccsets are going to be removed from pve builds. They´re just going to be a little less absolutely mandatory.

are you running 7 impen with points in reduced crit damage?
I haven't thought about sorcs yeah it is a buff on classes relying on shields to avoid damage. because we suffer from crits on burts way more then

WeerW3ir

ZOS. PLz care about the PVE too. We just get nerfs all the time because of the pvp. Change the skills in pvp not in pve. We already losed stam recovery while defending thx to the pvp. now we lose procs too? seriously. we just LOSE. pvp just gain. CARE ABOUT PVE DAMNIT!

Cinbri

Sneak peak is awesome. hope all rest cahnges are same good.

biovitalb16_ESO

Hey look more pve nerfs because of the pvp millennials

IxSTALKERxI

@ZOS_RichLambert

Thank you very much for this post. The more you communicate with us and are open about the ideas you have in mind, the more we can provide feedback and give suggestions that will help improve the game.

Pops_ND_Irish

I too like this, and looking forward to the changes, content and improvements coming.

Prof_Bawbag

When 2 or 3 monster sets are the only viable option out of around 30ish sets for a large portion of the player base, then something needs to be done. However, rather than bringing the others up to scratch they take the easy route and will probably nerf the good ones to Oblivion and back. Same with weapon traits, they will probably eventually nerf sharpened when there's nothing actually wrong with the trait, it's just the others could do with a boost or 2. Easier to destroy one trait than it is to give all the others some love and attention.

frozywozy

I like all the fixes except the one addressing proc sets. Making proc sets never crit will nerf even people who use only one proc set while keeping people who use multiple proc sets a viable playstyle. The best solution would have been to add a global cooldown between damaging/healing proc sets to force people to use only one.

Elsonso

ginoboehm wrote: »

But you realize it is still affecting pve much worse?

You cannot honestly say that until you get on PTS, with the proc and the balance changes, and try it for yourself.

Akimbro

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

Please reconsider this. Although this does provide a solution to the massive burst potential the proc sets currently provide, it is a lazy fix. Removing crit from proc sets hurts PVE more than PVP. With the various options of proc sets available, removing crit from proc sets still provides PVPers with an extremely low time to kill (2-3s vs. 1s currently). This won't change the proc set meta in PVP. However in PVE, where these sets (monster helm sets specifically) account for nearly 10% of your dps, players will be affected the most. In a PVE perspective, removing the crit on procs means these monster helm sets will no longer be affected by the Elfborn/Precise Strikes CP and minor/major force.

Instead of removing crit from proc sets altogether, it would be nice to see a "nerf" to wearing MULTIPLE proc sets to reduce the overall burst potential.

Shadeaux

All of these developers eventually *** off enough people one way or another with changes like this that the game dies.

I dislike farming the sets, but even more, I dislike farming them only to have them arbitrarily changed AFTER all the boring farming. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of money/time to upgrade them to gold. It simply makes people not want to invest any more time in the game as you feel your time has just been wasted.

If they are going to do stuff like this, they need to allow deconstructed items to return ALL the materials (i.e. 8 tempering, not just 1). It's frustrating to have your just upgraded item changed in a way you don't like but you are still out over 100k in upgrade costs...FOR JUST ONE ITEM. So there is a very real in-game economic cost to changes like this.

biovitalb16_ESO

SanTii.92 wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Once again a bad change on the proc sets to try and make PvP happy. The burst is fine when fightning mobs with millions of health or that one shot or nearly one shot players. This should had either been left alone or figured out a way to turn the crit off while in Cyrodiil only.

You will never be able to balance PvE items in PvP settings it's impossible stop trying to do so, and just make items and skills that can only be used in PvE or PvP content.

Both ilambris and grothdarr are clealry overperfoming compared to anything else on current patch. Change is welcomed as maybe will open up some builf diversity, allowing a second full 5p set without using dw,

Naw it won't and here's why.

The number crunching folks will do some math and go "X set is better than Ilambris and Grothdarr now", and guess what, everyone will use X now.

Robbmrp

I can't say I'm surprised at the proc changes. They can't seem to balance the game as it is so they have to make changes to a set that affects both PVE an d PVP. Why couldn't this have been added to Battle Spirit? Then it only affects PVP, these sets have no business being in a skilled PVP fight anyway. You should have just removed them from PVP completely and left them as is. Easy fix, problem solved. So burst damage can't crit on them now, so those gankers will hit you for 25k now instead of 30k....big whoop..... The sets can and will still proc at the same time so PVP will still be as dead as ever.

Armitas

If the crit doesn't go far enough removing penetration from proc sets could also help. Though I think a battle spirit attachment would be in order.

Prof_Bawbag

Shadeaux wrote: »

All of these developers eventually *** off enough people one way or another with changes like this that the game dies.

I dislike farming the sets, but even more, I dislike farming them only to have them arbitrarily changed AFTER all the boring farming. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of money/time to upgrade them to gold.

If they are going to do stuff like this, they need to allow deconstructed items to return ALL the materials (i.e. 8 tempering, not just 1).

Then you'd get people buying up all the gold items, deconstructing them and then the people who have tons of gold already would be swimming in gold materials. The fact you only get 1 back is the reason this doesn't happen.

TequilaFire

@ZOS_RichLambert

Thank you for the heads up looks like you guys are moving in the right direction.
One thing, could you guys look at making anti-personnel siege do a little more damage to players?
Lately many players are just able to stand in my ballista fire remaining at full health and just taunt me by bunny hopping! lol
This with 100 points in mighty.
Siege should be the ultimate ball zerg buster.

Sugaroverdose

@ZOS_RichLambert So to get load screens fixed, you must wait update 13 which is releases somewhere at February and doesn't even guarantee that issue is resolved?
Nothing about constant PS4 Pro crashes with 4k display and graphics downgrade in >1.19 version, i guess we'll get sneak peak about fixing second one 3 month before release of update 14 and first one - never?

LMar

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

snip

Can't you just remove the crit via Battle Spirit in PvP only? PvE is saved and PvP is dealt with!

DoccEff

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert do you use impen in pvp? why did you nerf proc sets in pve to the ground and only marginally made them weaker on pvp?

Yep I use impen - even with 7 impen, crits still hurt. On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from my internal testing. (using Viper, Red Mountain and Kra on my stam sorc) I wouldn't call that nerfed into the ground.

Kr'agh: 3022 to 1717 dps ---> -43.2%.
Red Mountain: 2623 to 1446 dps ---> -44.9%
Viper (who even uses this for PvE?): 2587 to 1616 dps. ---> -37.5%

I wouldn't call that nerfed into the ground.

Why not just remove the critchance in PvP only and leave it to PvE?

OrphanHelgen

MoTeets wrote: »

No update, complain
Yes update, complain
Specifically told partial list, complain not complete
List of updates, not enough on list

You cannot satisfy individuals that cannot be satisfied.
Should spend more time enjoying the game instead up keeping track of percentages, and bursts, etc.
Just enjoy it !

maybe a hint that they are doing it wrong then?
So many good ideas from experienced players, and zenimax doing the complete oposite. Thats why all the rage. Now proc sets was a pvp problem, and they nerf it for pve only. Thats purely a missunderstanding of the problem combined with the wrong solution of the update. Also, update should contain new sets, skills and content, not unnescesary nerfs, making the purpose of a MMO game a step in the wrong direction, where we get the feeling we lose progress and value time spend, instead of the oposite.

rotaugen454

biovitalb16_ESO wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Once again a bad change on the proc sets to try and make PvP happy. The burst is fine when fightning mobs with millions of health or that one shot or nearly one shot players. This should had either been left alone or figured out a way to turn the crit off while in Cyrodiil only.

You will never be able to balance PvE items in PvP settings it's impossible stop trying to do so, and just make items and skills that can only be used in PvE or PvP content.

Both ilambris and grothdarr are clealry overperfoming compared to anything else on current patch. Change is welcomed as maybe will open up some builf diversity, allowing a second full 5p set without using dw,

Naw it won't and here's why.

The number crunching folks will do some math and go "X set is better than Ilambris and Grothdarr now", and guess what, everyone will use X now.

Great, now I have to grind for X. What zone is X located in?

Sigtric

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert do you use impen in pvp? why did you nerf proc sets in pve to the ground and only marginally made them weaker on pvp?

Yep I use impen - even with 7 impen, crits still hurt. On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from my internal testing. (using Viper, Red Mountain and Kra on my stam sorc) I wouldn't call that nerfed into the ground.

Clearly this is the end of the world, looking at this dps comparison. Lolol

Imo good changes for pve and pvp

MrTtheDK

"Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)"

@ZOS_RichLambert Coming from a PVEr and PVPer; I like the change for pvp (I would like more of a dot process being placed instead of instant damage). The problem that I always see though in addressing the issues of PVP is the constant affect that these changes have on PVE. Is it a technical problem that prevent's the team from having different affects in PVE and PVP? (IE Barrier, purge ect having to be changed in PVE because of PVP being another example)

Alliedrex

This game has had many sets based on limited AOEs in combat. Does the removal of AOE caps affect healing as well? There are many sets that would have very overpowered abilities when I can place them on 60 people; give everyone a 5k shield, give them major evasion, debuff entire regions of the battlefield with 400 lower weapon damage, or buff spell damage. I don't know if people really understand what they ask for when they want to remove AOE caps.

There is a blind rage at zergs. I feel you. I would like to remove them as well, but there are many implications that are overlooked. This doesn't just affect healing either. The destro staff that everyone loves to hate, yeah, they just improved its power by an order of magnitude. Individual players will be able to do increased damage against zergs, but my experience in Cyrodiil is that organized zergs tend to abuse these abilities much more than what individual players are capable of doing. I would like to remind the community of past decisions that ZOS has done from user feedback like the destro staff and "tanking" in pvp, sometimes you get more than you ask for. If this is something that ZOS is determined to reintroduce please give feedback that is well researched, fair, and includes thought as to how it can be abused as well as how you think it should be used.

luen79rwb17_ESO

It's too early to say anything because we're missing the whole patch. But it's a mistake to "balance" all proc sets only testing around Viper/Velidreth abuse...

Derra

ginoboehm wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Belicourt wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober
Hello Mr Lambert,
I think you understood our requests wrongly. Proc sets are a major problem in PVP not PVE you nerf them major for PVE and only marginally for PVP.
THIS IS NOT WHAT ANYBODY WANTS.
Look in pvp we wear a lot of impen to reduce crit damage. In pve we use thief or shadow to push the two crit stats(not even talking about the sets and traits who focus on crit). Now if you let those proc sets not crit you hugely nerf pve and leave pvp at it is (more or less)
Ofc it will help somehow and it better than nothing because especially gankblades stack sooo much crit that you cannot mitigate it all with impen . nonetheless it is a silly change.The goal cannot be to make a pve huge nerf to help pvp a bit(if at all)
My opinion:
"Damage in my opionion should be reliable and skill should determin the outcome not silly procs that proc from simple light attacks and from 3 different sets"

Please don't waste another patch with bad thought out changes and on mechanics you do not completly have thought through.
Talk to knowledgable people like @sypherpk @FENGRUSH @Etaniel @Blobsky @Derra and leaders of big and good pvp guilds like smooky and @Hexys
Thank you for your time.

That moment when derra just negated your argument...

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maybe the nerf to proc sets in PVE was intended and not just another nerf cause of PVP? Just maybe. I mean considering that most of those sets are OP af and there is no reason to run anything else then a nerf should be expected right?

Arguable they were overperforming in both scenarios. So you could be right.

Well i don´t think it´s the most elegant solution. It does not adress proccstacking and especially viper + monster2p is still going to be insanely good.
But it will achieve something. When i die to proccs in pvp it´s crits in an estimated 70% of the cases.

I´m also not convinced proccsets are going to be removed from pve builds. They´re just going to be a little less absolutely mandatory.

are you running 7 impen with points in reduced crit damage?
I haven't thought about sorcs yeah it is a buff on classes relying on shields to avoid damage. because we suffer from crits on burts way more than

I´m running ~ 2300 to 2700 impen depending on the build i´m running (not all monstersets have perfect traits).

The builds i´m having the most problem with are usually selenes with high dmg and a random selene crit for 10k+ dmg in my recap. Those are usually NBs with shadow and very high crit CP.

Personally i don´t know if it will fix proccs for pvp. I think viper still needs a rework. It´s still too good even without critting.

My personal list of desireable solutions to proccs would be/was:
1. turn highdmg instant proccs into dots (selene, tremor, viper, skoria, velidreth, redmountain)
2. no crits
3. procc gcd
4. deactivate dmg proccs for pvp

Solariken

I love everything you listed @ZOS_RichLambert, except this:

PvPers want more things to spend AP on
We've been working on ways to add more things that you can purchase with AP. With Update 13, we are updating the PVP vendors in your home keeps and adding a new item - Zone Bags. These Zone Bags contain a set item from an overland zone and will scale to your level. For example: the Auridon Zone Bag will only have Queen's Elegance, Twin Sisters and Veiled Heritance item sets in it. The bags will cost 5K AP and always contain one green or blue quality item in them.

You guys have gone totally RNG crazy... These RNG bags are not fun and result in a huge amount of inefficiency and waste for players. However, this mechanic could be made acceptable with two other changes to the game:

1. TRAIT SOCKETS on gear that allow us to change the traits on gear at will via crafting.

2. JEWELRY CRAFTING with the ability to upgrade jewelry all the way to yellow quality.

Please consider!

Recremen

Lambert coming in with some quality content as always. I absolutely love these little sneak peaks!

OrphanHelgen

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert do you use impen in pvp? why did you nerf proc sets in pve to the ground and only marginally made them weaker on pvp?

Yep I use impen - even with 7 impen, crits still hurt. On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from my internal testing. (using Viper, Red Mountain and Kra on my stam sorc) I wouldn't call that nerfed into the ground.

Maybe not nerfed to the ground, but its definitely a reason to never use any of these sets in pve in any situation, when they cannot be used for either burst or sustained dps, and aggressive warhorn, twiceborn star and minor force are the main buffs used for pve.

NBrookus

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Hi All! As we near the end of 2016, I wanted to give a quick sneak peak into some of the more hotly debated topics recently and shed some light on how we plan on addressing them for Update 13. Keep in mind this isn't everything coming in the update... and definitely not any of the class balance changes - you will have to wait for the natch potes for the full list.

Thank you very much for the updates!

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

I have to agree with everyone else that it is the stacking of sets, not the crit chance that is the fundamental issue.

I do think AoE caps should go altogether -- it just further empowers larger groups that already have the advantage of more damage, heals and utility. Nonetheless, I appreciate the smaller steps being taken here instead of the huge changes we've seen in the past. I hope that these smaller steps, if they aren't sufficient, will happen more frequently than they have in the past.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Poison fixes / adjustments
All poisons now share the same global cooldown and no longer have individual cooldowns. This means that when Update 13 goes live, it will no longer be possible to proc a poison more than once every 10 seconds.In addition, we’ve been able to track down and fix a separate issue where poisons could sometimes double proc.

Can you please clarify - does that mean a single player can't proc multiple poisons on you? Or you can only have one poison debuff on you at a time?