Update 13 - Sneak peak notes

Belicourt

Sigtric wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maybe the nerf to proc sets in PVE was intended and not just another nerf cause of PVP? Just maybe. I mean considering that most of those sets are OP af and there is no reason to run anything else then a nerf should be expected right?

This could be it. As is, vipers/etc is really shoehorning the majority of the playerbase into specific builds. If ZOS decides they want more diversity in equipped gear, they need to make it all somewhat comparable. Bringing proc sets down a notch or two helps this.

Additionally, proc is just cheese. It's not skill, and if they want PVE DPS to return to skillful play, bringing procs down a bit will help edge towards that goal as well.

As someone who PVE and PVP, I am totally fine with this. I'd be happy with no overland proc at all and leave that as a monster set job.

Soooo much this^ That is all.

ginoboehm

leepalmer95 wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

You mentioned poisons double proc'ing, but you haven't mentioned viper or selene and there multiple procs? I hope they're getting fixed.

The sneak peak isn't a list of all the patch notes. There's lots more fixes coming.

@ZOS_RichLambert do you use impen in pvp? why did you nerf proc sets in pve to the ground and only marginally made them weaker on pvp?

Well to be honest i'm kind of happy i won't be able to be crit of sets like selene or viper.

Selene having a 16k tooltip
Veli having 12k...

And thats without incap boosting it or the potential of critting.

sure but the goal was to nerf them for pvp i guess.(remember impen is reducing crit damage!)
now you nerfed them for pve a lot. and if you wear impen like most pvp players are doing the situation is basically more or less the same.

BalticBlues

Thank the YouTube PvP streamers for another PvE blow, it's always is the same:
Powerful YouTube streamers will become even more powerful (AoE+).
Powerless players (happy with a little monster set) will get the nerf (Proc-).

Belicourt

Ankael07 wrote: »

A lot of good changes. But why nerf every proc set while you can only nerf the ones that have overpowered burst? Are you telling me that players were dying to sets like Illambris,Bahraha's Curse or Nerieneth?

I kinda get this concern but i think that it is an issue with base damage, not whether or not it can crit. Nerieneth was never really prolific in, pvp at least, to begin with.

Paneross

Sheezabeast wrote: »

buh-bye crit heals from Chokethorn and Troll-King

Troll King isn't a heal I thought. It's health recovery which can't be critted.

Dunno I could wrong.

LinearParadox

Let me say that I like this... this is a good start. Communication. We need it, lots of it, and ASAP... many things languish when communication falters, and those things fester and breed hate and pessimism, so good on you for posting a sneak peak for some of the hot-button topics. That being said, I'd like to offer some feedback here, hopefully it'll get read.

-Snipped- throughout for length, not trying to misquote anything-

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

While this will likely help tone down the burst in PvP, which was GREATLY needed, let me offer some feedback here as someone who basically quit PvP (and almost the entire game since PvP is mostly all I do for end-game these days).
First off, I'm not sure this addresses the biggest problem which was the stacking of proc sets far moreso than the sets themselves, but I'll wait and see how it works out in combat.
Secondly, the nerf to their PvE performance, although I'm sure it'll help to standardize their damage which will help with tuning, is not what we need right now. With bosses as they are, and their astronomical health pools as high as they are, a nerf to PvE damage is NOT what we need. Please reconsider this, perhaps as a Battle Spirit addition for PvP only.
Many PvE'ers say that PvP players "get everything nerfed", normally I disagree, but not in this case.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

AoE cap adjustments
First a bit of background - AoE caps are there to help keep single-target abilities effective in PvP. In addition, they allow players the chance to survive some of the larger-scale battles a bit longer. (especially newer players)
We are going to modify the damage caps so that players take more damage. This will have an adverse effect on the newer players in Cyrodiil - and will make AoE more effective, but will help combat the balled-up “stack on crown” groups and spread players out more.
We are starting fairly conservatively with this initial round of changes and once we have had a chance to see how they affect things in Cyrodiil on a large scale, we will evaluate further changes.

I'm so happy right now I could cry. I'm going to take the high road from the 'I-told-you-so' and simply tactfully say I'm glad you're finally doing this.
A suggestion; if after this initial pass, the impact is not what you wanted to see, I think a healthy change might be attacking things from the other angle and meeting in the middle... perhaps healing caps? Purge caps? AoE caps are the primary reason "ball-groups" are so effective, but the fact that the natural counters to them such as AoE CC and DoTs that would cripple/melt them are so easily countered also contributes to their effectiveness.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Poison fixes / adjustments

Stuck in combat in Cyrodiil

Charging into loadscreens in Cyrodiil

All of the above: Awesome. Especially happy to hear acknowledgement of the players that helped make the fix possible, and that they were listened to in the first place. Many here believe that doesn't happen, myself included on my bad days, it's nice to be proven wrong at least in this case, and hopefully more.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

PvPers want more things to spend AP on
We've been working on ways to add more things that you can purchase with AP. With Update 13, we are updating the PVP vendors in your home keeps and adding a new item - Zone Bags. These Zone Bags contain a set item from an overland zone and will scale to your level. For example: the Auridon Zone Bag will only have Queen's Elegance, Twin Sisters and Veiled Heritance item sets in it. The bags will cost 5K AP and always contain one green or blue quality item in them.

While I can't say I'm super excited about this for a plethora of little reasons (drop-set dominance, gear grind, lack of viability of certain sets, etc) I'm certainly not upset about it. More options is always nice.
One suggestion though... let them drop up to purple quality. Seriously. There can still be gold jewelry in the golden vendor, and it can even be a rare chance in the bags, but it just feels a little cheap to go only green/blue in the bags.
Please, green/blue/purple. Or, maybe just straight blue, no chance for green or purple. I think that between the set RNG, the trait RNG, and the equipment piece RNG, there's enough of a grind there without adding a quality RNG as well.

ginoboehm

BalticBlues wrote: »

As before, we have to thank the YouTube PvP streamers for this PvE blow.

It always is the same trend:
Powerful YouTube streamers will become even more powerful (AoE+).
Powerless players (happy with a little monster set) will get less powerful (Proc-).

No pvp player asked for this.
This nerf is mostly affecting pve.
In pvp impen was reducing crit already.
This is intended as a pve nerf it is not planned as a pvp nerf.

Asmael

This is an attempt to reduce lag in trials by making graphic-intensive sets worse Might finally be able to see something on my screen and reach 10 FPS!

...That being said, it's about time a way to apply the Power Lash / Ambush treatment to sets happenz:

Pops_ND_Irish

No update, complain
Yes update, complain
Specifically told partial list, complain not complete
List of updates, not enough on list

You cannot satisfy individuals that cannot be satisfied.
Should spend more time enjoying the game instead up keeping track of percentages, and bursts, etc.
Just enjoy it !

timidobserver

@ZOS_RichLambert

As someone who PvPs and PvEs, I am happy for PvPers and sad for PvErs.

The proc set changes are needed for PvP not PvE. It's like you guys want your PvP and PvE communities to have an adversarial relationship. The consensus of the PvE community is going to be that the PvP community prevents them from having nice things.

Armitas

Could we get alchemical and gold mats for AP too? We can buy these overworld sets on the cheap already. With good reason people don't trust the RNG in this game either.

It would also be nice if we could get dungeon weapons with AP. It is currently very difficult to get the weapon you want, let alone the right trait in these dungeons. It's even harder if the boss drops a unique weapon that isn't the kind you want, ex Darkshade caverns I boss. Some people have done COA 300x without getting a single weapon. Many of us DK's would really like to be able to run BSW without dedicating a month just to get 1 weapon. Adding dungeon weapons to PVP would be a good way to keep the population growing for PvP as we have 1 active campaign and 1 almost always dead campaign (not counting AS)

luen79rwb17_ESO

I love these sneak peeks! Thank you very much!

I must say I'm concerned on the huge monster helm PVE nerf incomming

IMO viper and velidreth are the real issue here. Just nerf those, not everything.

Or at least consider scaling up damage to other sets like Ilambris to compensate. This change alone will nerf Ilambris alot: proc set, internal cooldown, small AOE AND non crit? Too much IMO.

ZOS_RichLambert

ginoboehm wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert do you use impen in pvp? why did you nerf proc sets in pve to the ground and only marginally made them weaker on pvp?

Yep I use impen - even with 7 impen, crits still hurt. On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from my internal testing. (using Viper, Red Mountain and Kra on my stam sorc) I wouldn't call that nerfed into the ground.

souravami

FloppyTouch wrote: »

like any of this matter in pve, pve is so stupid easy they can nerf ur gear and skills and class into the ground and you can still do everything just fine.

You must've never tried Vmol or Hardmode vet trials after OT.

Belicourt

ginoboehm wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober
Hello Mr Lambert,
I think you understood our requests wrongly. Proc sets are a major problem in PVP not PVE you nerf them major for PVE and only marginally for PVP.
THIS IS NOT WHAT ANYBODY WANTS.
Look in pvp we wear a lot of impen to reduce crit damage. In pve we use thief or shadow to push the two crit stats(not even talking about the sets and traits who focus on crit). Now if you let those proc sets not crit you hugely nerf pve and leave pvp at it is (more or less)
Ofc it will help somehow and it better than nothing because especially gankblades stack sooo much crit that you cannot mitigate it all with impen . nonetheless it is a silly change.The goal cannot be to make a pve huge nerf to help pvp a bit(if at all)
My opinion:
"Damage in my opionion should be reliable and skill should determin the outcome not silly procs that proc from simple light attacks and from 3 different sets"

Please don't waste another patch with bad thought out changes and on mechanics you do not completly have thought through.
Talk to knowledgable people like @sypherpk @FENGRUSH @Etaniel @Blobsky @Derra and leaders of big and good pvp guilds like smooky and @Hexys
Thank you for your time.

That moment when derra just negated your argument...

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maybe the nerf to proc sets in PVE was intended and not just another nerf cause of PVP? Just maybe. I mean considering that most of those sets are OP af and there is no reason to run anything else then a nerf should be expected right?

Arguable they were overperforming in both scenarios. So you could be right.

Danksta

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Stuck in combat in Cyrodiil
This has been an ongoing issue in Cyrodiil for a long time now – due to the nature of combat in Cyrodiil there were cascading threat issues between players. (i.e. – You fight another player and all the threat they have on them is transferred to you) We’ve changed how threat is transferred between players and when Update 13 goes live, you should always drop combat properly after 6 seconds of ending a battle. Note: If you are grouped with other players and they are actively in combat, you will still be considered in combat as well.

I certainly hope people won't be effected by this if they have group mates across the map that are in combat. There should definitely be some kind of range restrictions on this.

altemriel

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Hi All! As we near the end of 2016, I wanted to give a quick sneak peak into some of the more hotly debated topics recently and shed some light on how we plan on addressing them for Update 13. Keep in mind this isn't everything coming in the update... and definitely not any of the class balance changes - you will have to wait for the natch potes for the full list.

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

AoE cap adjustments
First a bit of background - AoE caps are there to help keep single-target abilities effective in PvP. In addition, they allow players the chance to survive some of the larger-scale battles a bit longer. (especially newer players)
We are going to modify the damage caps so that players take more damage. This will have an adverse effect on the newer players in Cyrodiil - and will make AoE more effective, but will help combat the balled-up “stack on crown” groups and spread players out more. The changes will be:

• The first 6 players hit always take 100% damage
• The next 7 to 30 players take 75% damage (for reference on live this is currently 50%)
• The next 31 to 60 players take 50% damage (for reference on live this is currently 25%)
• Players past 60 take 0 damage (for reference on live this is also currently 0%)

We are starting fairly conservatively with this initial round of changes and once we have had a chance to see how they affect things in Cyrodiil on a large scale, we will evaluate further changes.

Poison fixes / adjustments
All poisons now share the same global cooldown and no longer have individual cooldowns. This means that when Update 13 goes live, it will no longer be possible to proc a poison more than once every 10 seconds.In addition, we’ve been able to track down and fix a separate issue where poisons could sometimes double proc.

Stuck in combat in Cyrodiil
This has been an ongoing issue in Cyrodiil for a long time now – due to the nature of combat in Cyrodiil there were cascading threat issues between players. (i.e. – You fight another player and all the threat they have on them is transferred to you) We’ve changed how threat is transferred between players and when Update 13 goes live, you should always drop combat properly after 6 seconds of ending a battle. Note: If you are grouped with other players and they are actively in combat, you will still be considered in combat as well.

Charging into loadscreens in Cyrodiil
We think we have a fix! It’s been really, really hard for us to repro this one internally, and therefore really difficult to fix. A huge thank you to everyone who has submitted locations and videos of how to repro the issue. If you get it again after Update 13, please let us know. (Provide the date/time & campaign - if you have a video of it, even better)

PvPers want more things to spend AP on
We've been working on ways to add more things that you can purchase with AP. With Update 13, we are updating the PVP vendors in your home keeps and adding a new item - Zone Bags. These Zone Bags contain a set item from an overland zone and will scale to your level. For example: the Auridon Zone Bag will only have Queen's Elegance, Twin Sisters and Veiled Heritance item sets in it. The bags will cost 5K AP and always contain one green or blue quality item in them.

Again, this is just a sneak peak... not an exhaustive list. There is a lot more coming in Update 13, including a whole bunch of balance fixes. (Patch Notes aren't quite done yet, so hang in there for awhile longer)

Enjoy your holidays and please be safe on New Years!

This one is pleased, very pleased . Happy Fishmas everyone!!!

May your claws stay sharp!!
Maoimii

King-Justin-Arisdale

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober That is not a fix to proc sets that is destroying them for PVE.

I PVP. When I am out there hardcore, I am in the top 20 DK's for DC Trueflame. I do not need a proc set to be that good, I do not rely on it to get kills. I just like the set. I have faced a handful of people that can take me down before my so called "OP" proc set can kill them. There are some people this so called "OP" proc set can't even scratch!! I have also faced other players with the same proc sets that could not kill me. Its about skill and not getting caught 1v1 with a good player. About healing and defending and not letting your health fall to execute range.

Either disable the crit in PVP only or find another way to make it work so I do not lose my Maelstrom setup. >:(

Loyal subscriber since beta, never once stopped paying, but when you do stupid stuff like this that messes with PVE I get closer to pulling my sub.

Fix those blasted destro ulties they are more OP then my proc sets.

Flak

So something here needs clarification imo.
I agree with most of this, but I don't really get why procsets shouldn't crit in pve. Anyways, are you only changing this on instant-damage sets like Velidreth or also on Dotsets like Grothdar or Kragh? I can't really see a reason to nerf the Dotsets. Also keep in mind that many PvE ers are focused on crit since Twice-Born Star with Thief and Shadow Mundus is BiS for most while still easy to get.
If you pull it through like this it will make Monstersets obsolete in PvE and that makes pledges a lot less interesting.

It's about time that you make separate rules for PvE and PvP, it's almost impossible to solve problems on one side without letting the other side suffer, we've seen that a lot already.

ginoboehm

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert do you use impen in pvp? why did you nerf proc sets in pve to the ground and only marginally made them weaker on pvp?

Yep I use impen - even with 7 impen, crits still hurt. On the PVE side, It's about a 7-8% nerf to sustain from my internal testing. (using Viper, Red Mountain and Kra on my stam sorc) I wouldn't call that nerfed into the ground.

But you realize it is still affecting pve much worse?
and no crit is not the problem when you wearing 7 impen.
As i elaborated only gankers stack enough crit to really hurt you in 7 impen through crit.

Cinbri

@ZOS_RichLambert
does it mean every single proc sets, including monster sets and sets that summon adds (like monster set that summon daedroth), so adds won't be able to crit?

Ashtaris

Again, PVE'ers get the shaft at the expense of trying to keep the PVP crowd happy.

White wabbit

Only wish is they do some thing about Heavy wearing Magplars

ginoboehm

Belicourt wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober
Hello Mr Lambert,
I think you understood our requests wrongly. Proc sets are a major problem in PVP not PVE you nerf them major for PVE and only marginally for PVP.
THIS IS NOT WHAT ANYBODY WANTS.
Look in pvp we wear a lot of impen to reduce crit damage. In pve we use thief or shadow to push the two crit stats(not even talking about the sets and traits who focus on crit). Now if you let those proc sets not crit you hugely nerf pve and leave pvp at it is (more or less)
Ofc it will help somehow and it better than nothing because especially gankblades stack sooo much crit that you cannot mitigate it all with impen . nonetheless it is a silly change.The goal cannot be to make a pve huge nerf to help pvp a bit(if at all)
My opinion:
"Damage in my opionion should be reliable and skill should determin the outcome not silly procs that proc from simple light attacks and from 3 different sets"

Please don't waste another patch with bad thought out changes and on mechanics you do not completly have thought through.
Talk to knowledgable people like @sypherpk @FENGRUSH @Etaniel @Blobsky @Derra and leaders of big and good pvp guilds like smooky and @Hexys
Thank you for your time.

That moment when derra just negated your argument...

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maybe the nerf to proc sets in PVE was intended and not just another nerf cause of PVP? Just maybe. I mean considering that most of those sets are OP af and there is no reason to run anything else then a nerf should be expected right?

Arguable they were overperforming in both scenarios. So you could be right.

he didn't. it is perfectly fine to stop letting them crit. i am ok with this but this cannot be the solution if you want to reduce their effectiveness in pvp.
I am sure he would agree that other solutions would suit that way better

CyrusArya

Great changes and great way of handling the proc issue. Without crit procs in PvP, the sets are not useless but definitely not nearly as powerful as they are now. This preserves the effort people put into farming the gear but makes them much less cheesy then they currently are. Stacking procs may still indeed be powerful but I don't like the idea of restricting a player from gearing the way they want and I think this crit change will do more than enough to dampen stacking procs. Remember, when you stack procs you sacrifice raw stats buffs which are also powerful. Thats the most important aspect of this change in my view. It makes stacking pen or raw stats equally viable options to stacking proc sets (which i honestly believe is already the case in many instances). In other words, there will be good balance in what builds are viable and how people want to play their characters.

As far as PvE whiners go, I honestly dont care to hear it. Gonna tell you the same thing I tell people who rely on proc sets in PvP: stop crutching on procs. Proc sets on live are op and carry players both in PvP and PvE...unless you wanna sit here and argue that monster sets hitting as hard as ultimates and grothdar ticking for 4-6k is balanced and reasonable. Before you jump the gun and assume this was done simply to appease PvP players, realize that ZOS probably sees the same logic as I do that proc sets were too powerful in both aspects of the game. Proc sets should supplement, not define builds. And this changes accomplishes exactly that.

Lastly, to the people who want separate profiles for PvP and PvE: hell no. Consistency between the two aspects of the game is very important to me and making the two realms operate differently would be something I'm strongly opposed to.

altemriel

AOE caps adjustment - zerg destroyer - yes

proc sets nerfed - YES YES!!!

Derra

Belicourt wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Proc sets
We are going to be making some changes to these sets to balance out their burst potential. When the update hits, any set that has a damage or heal proc component to it will no longer crit in PVE or PVP. We chose this direction as we like the concept of these sets and still want them to be interesting and viable, we just wanted to tone down their overall burst potential. (sustain is slightly reduced, while burst potential is significantly reduced)

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_KaiSchober
Hello Mr Lambert,
I think you understood our requests wrongly. Proc sets are a major problem in PVP not PVE you nerf them major for PVE and only marginally for PVP.
THIS IS NOT WHAT ANYBODY WANTS.
Look in pvp we wear a lot of impen to reduce crit damage. In pve we use thief or shadow to push the two crit stats(not even talking about the sets and traits who focus on crit). Now if you let those proc sets not crit you hugely nerf pve and leave pvp at it is (more or less)
Ofc it will help somehow and it better than nothing because especially gankblades stack sooo much crit that you cannot mitigate it all with impen . nonetheless it is a silly change.The goal cannot be to make a pve huge nerf to help pvp a bit(if at all)
My opinion:
"Damage in my opionion should be reliable and skill should determin the outcome not silly procs that proc from simple light attacks and from 3 different sets"

Please don't waste another patch with bad thought out changes and on mechanics you do not completly have thought through.
Talk to knowledgable people like @sypherpk @FENGRUSH @Etaniel @Blobsky @Derra and leaders of big and good pvp guilds like smooky and @Hexys
Thank you for your time.

That moment when derra just negated your argument...

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Maybe the nerf to proc sets in PVE was intended and not just another nerf cause of PVP? Just maybe. I mean considering that most of those sets are OP af and there is no reason to run anything else then a nerf should be expected right?

Arguable they were overperforming in both scenarios. So you could be right.

Well i don´t think it´s the most elegant solution. It does not adress proccstacking and especially viper + monster2p is still going to be insanely good.
But it will achieve something. When i die to proccs in pvp it´s crits in an estimated 70% of the cases.

I´m also not convinced proccsets are going to be removed from pve builds. They´re just going to be a little less absolutely mandatory.

itsfatbass

Not happy about this, almost makes me cringe at the thought of the "balancing" that's incoming...

Kilandros

I'm actually really excited about these patch notes, looks good!

Armitas

Is it intended for hardy/elemental defender to apply before shields? In some cases I hit heavy armor players harder than some of these shields.