Official Discussion Thread for Weapon Ultimates

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

There is a lot of commentary on how lackluster the Destro ult is - and for good reason. If I want to use an overly expensive large AoE DOT, I most certainly will be using standard, veil, negate, and Nova because they have other important functions besides damage.

There is not enough discussion on how bad the resto staff ultimate. If I am reading the description correctly, only ONE person gets that heal and the buff. It is not replacing warhorn, it doesn't provided nearly as much healing as the Templar ultimate (which is itself not very good), and is something that would not help complete a Raid or Trial faster. Also, who is going to take the Life giver morph? While that at least has the virtue of healing more than one person, it still isn't as good at the templar ultimate and people are going to take Light's Champion morph because the healing provided is poor and the buffs are the only thing valuable about the ultimate in the first place.

The problem with both resto + destro staff is imo that they don´t have "competition". Resto is the only defensive magica weapon option. Destro is the only offensive one.

This leads to the poor state the magica weaponlines are currently in. They´re used anyways and by not having an alternative that should ideally see use aswell there is no need to put any effort into balancing them.

Things don´t need to be desireable if they´re the only option. And zos has gone out of their way assuring thats the case by nerfing possible ways to utilize dw and shields for magica.

hrothbern

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

There is a lot of commentary on how lackluster the Destro ult is - and for good reason. If I want to use an overly expensive large AoE DOT, I most certainly will be using standard, veil, negate, and Nova because they have other important functions besides damage.

There is not enough discussion on how bad the resto staff ultimate. If I am reading the description correctly, only ONE person gets that heal and the buff. It is not replacing warhorn, it doesn't provided nearly as much healing as the Templar ultimate (which is itself not very good), and is something that would not help complete a Raid or Trial faster. Also, who is going to take the Life giver morph? While that at least has the virtue of healing more than one person, it still isn't as good at the templar ultimate and people are going to take Light's Champion morph because the healing provided is poor and the buffs are the only thing valuable about the ultimate in the first place.

The problem with both resto + destro staff is imo that they don´t have "competition". Resto is the only defensive magica weapon option. Destro is the only offensive one.

This leads to the poor state the magica weaponlines are currently in. They´re used anyways and by not having an alternative that should ideally see use aswell there is no need to put any effort into balancing them.

Things don´t need to be desireable if they´re the only option. And zos has gone out of their way assuring thats the case by nerfing possible ways to utilize dw and shields for magica.

Jep

There are 3 DD Stamina weapon lines and only 1 DD Magicka weapon line.
(S&B and Resto being defensive/support)

The solution is perhaps very simple:

Split the Destro up in 3 separate Magicka weapon lines !!!

With different abilities and passives and with 3 different Ultimates.

EDIT:

What we now have is one weapon lines flavored with the 3 kinds of elemental damage.
But once we have really 3 weapon lines, they can each have a truly another character
from more defensive to more offensive
from more sustain to more burst
etc

themdogesbite

Can we have the resto staff passive back that increased damage on our attacks? Need to stay somewhat competetive with the Stam damage somehow.

ParaNostram

The resto//destro ults are far weaker than tools already available to all classes, making them "why bother" ults. They both need a considerable buff. The Destro ult is already higher cost than every ult being implemented, and lower damage with no fancy effect to it really. It just needs buffed, either in pure damage or adding something special to the morphs to give them more utility. The Resto ult, well, I know I was hoping for something that would allow non Templar healers to be given a little bit more respect (everyone knows anyone can heal, but few are willing to trust a pug healer who is not a Templar).

The stamina ults seem fine, except for the 2 Hander. The combination of stealing resistances and becoming immune to crowd control for 8 seconds is too much and will make the stamina glass cannon burst meta even worse. Not to mention it feels like kicking sand in the face of anyone who PvPs as anything remotely tanky that now the glass cannons who already out damage them will steal what they worked so hard to obtain and make viable (as tank builds in PvP are much less viable than DPS builds).

I like the bow ult, though. The dual wield seems like it can have some real potential as well.

Tonnopesce

@Dracane the bat Swarm cost a half ( full vamp stage 4) and teorically deals half the damage (5 sec compared to 10) or i'm missing something?
Even the radius is smaller.

Ivan04

Gotta agree with everyone - 2H ulti is a bit OP, I'd say it'd seem reasonable if the armor penetration on it was about 40%. And full 150 ultimate back on a kill - as much as I'd enjoy it personally, I have to say that it is indeed a bit too much. 70-50% of the cost would seem reasonable. And the animation on it does look a tiny tad silly and unrealistic.
Bow ulti - like it very much, full moving speed feels a bit unbalanced though.
Now the more interesting part - summoning a turret. I gotta say, from the lore/logic perspective summoning a turret makes zero sense. Bow is a physical weapon, and it can be used quite effectively by those who can't cast a single spell. Other new ultimates do make sense because they're a product of will/strengh/magic, and summoning a turret doesn't. What is this, a daedric turret, or are we Bow Saints all of a sudden? In my humble opinion, the Ballista ultimate needs to be changed. This game already has too many logic violations (even for a fantasy world), please don't add another one.

Sharee

susmitds wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Just fyi, the 1h/shield ultimate does not provide CC immunity like normal block does, and worse, it disables normal blocking for the duration, so you are at the mercy of every CC flying your way. That ult is a giant "cc me now" sign.

I sure hope this isn't intended.

Who cares? You gonna be feared anyway.

You will care, as soon as someone drops a meteor on your head and you will be unable to block the knockdown.

Dracane

Tonnopesce wrote: »

@Dracane the bat Swarm cost a half ( full vamp stage 4) and teorically deals half the damage (5 sec compared to 10) or i'm missing something?
Even the radius is smaller.

Yes, you are missing something.
It might not have the same duration per cast, but it has a higher uptime, so this gets negated completely.

It will actually deal more damage in the same time period, because its base damage is slightly higher. Don't forget, that it can also restore health and you can use it on any weapon you want.

Tonnopesce

Dracane wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

@Dracane the bat Swarm cost a half ( full vamp stage 4) and teorically deals half the damage (5 sec compared to 10) or i'm missing something?
Even the radius is smaller.

Yes, you are missing something.
It might not have the same duration per cast, but it has a higher uptime, so this gets negated completely.

It will actually deal more damage in the same time period, because its base damage is slightly higher. Don't forget, that it can also restore health and you can use it on any weapon you want.

Damn i need to do a dk magika fire template imho with all the dk passives you can reach insane amount of damage.
Another thing, you are stuck in the animation while using the ultimate?

psychotic13

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

@Dracane the bat Swarm cost a half ( full vamp stage 4) and teorically deals half the damage (5 sec compared to 10) or i'm missing something?
Even the radius is smaller.

Yes, you are missing something.
It might not have the same duration per cast, but it has a higher uptime, so this gets negated completely.

It will actually deal more damage in the same time period, because its base damage is slightly higher. Don't forget, that it can also restore health and you can use it on any weapon you want.

Damn i need to do a dk magika fire template imho with all the dk passives you can reach insane amount of damage.
Another thing, you are stuck in the animation while using the ultimate?

Also curious of this, could be decent on a DK if you could swap bars after casting.

Dracane

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

@Dracane the bat Swarm cost a half ( full vamp stage 4) and teorically deals half the damage (5 sec compared to 10) or i'm missing something?
Even the radius is smaller.

Yes, you are missing something.
It might not have the same duration per cast, but it has a higher uptime, so this gets negated completely.

It will actually deal more damage in the same time period, because its base damage is slightly higher. Don't forget, that it can also restore health and you can use it on any weapon you want.

Damn i need to do a dk magika fire template imho with all the dk passives you can reach insane amount of damage.
Another thing, you are stuck in the animation while using the ultimate?

You are not stuck. You can still use everything while batswarm is active, same with elemental storm.
I can only see elemental fire rage being usefull and that's only when you are a magicka Dk. But this is pve exclusive and then again, it will not even be equal to what meteor does.

Joy_Division

Pandorii wrote: »

Please consider a morph in the DW skill line for magicka users. As it stands, it is still beneficial to run DW in some builds over Destro, considering how no destro skills were changed this patch.

Additionally, the current system gives stamina users 3 choice (DW, 2H, and Bow) while only giving 1to magicka dps (Destro). One is a very scary number because it creates no build diversity.

If DW was used by magicka types unintentionally (by your design) consider adding a new weapon for magicka users that allow them to have the additional set piece bonus that stamina users can get from DW.

Excellent point. In fact I'd much prefer a magicka based DW option because even if the Destro option is "fixed," the weapon itself is still terrible and I'll still be using two swords.

Dracane

psychotic13 wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

@Dracane the bat Swarm cost a half ( full vamp stage 4) and teorically deals half the damage (5 sec compared to 10) or i'm missing something?
Even the radius is smaller.

Yes, you are missing something.
It might not have the same duration per cast, but it has a higher uptime, so this gets negated completely.

It will actually deal more damage in the same time period, because its base damage is slightly higher. Don't forget, that it can also restore health and you can use it on any weapon you want.

Damn i need to do a dk magika fire template imho with all the dk passives you can reach insane amount of damage.
Another thing, you are stuck in the animation while using the ultimate?

Also curious of this, could be decent on a DK if you could swap bars after casting.

Sure you can swap bars. It works like all other ults.

AhPook_Is_Here

So far my favorite is the destruction staff ultimate because it has the phrase "lay waste", and as an anime fan i feel like i'm playing noragami and laying waste to the vast defilement of monsters in tamriel. This kind of RP is of the utmost importance to me or I might be inclined to think that it was a 20% more expensive meteor with 50% of the damage.

Dracane

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

So far my favorite is the destruction staff ultimate because it has the phrase "lay waste", and as an anime fan i feel like i'm playing noragami and laying waste to the vast defilement of monsters in tamriel. This kind of RP is of the utmost importance to me or I might be inclined to think that it was a 20% more expensive meteor with 50% of the damage.

That's true, the tooltip description is the most awesome. And that's all it has to offer

Pinja

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

There is a lot of commentary on how lackluster the Destro ult is - and for good reason. If I want to use an overly expensive large AoE DOT, I most certainly will be using standard, veil, negate, and Nova because they have other important functions besides damage.

There is not enough discussion on how bad the resto staff ultimate. If I am reading the description correctly, only ONE person gets that heal and the buff. It is not replacing warhorn, it doesn't provided nearly as much healing as the Templar ultimate (which is itself not very good), and is something that would not help complete a Raid or Trial faster. Also, who is going to take the Life giver morph? While that at least has the virtue of healing more than one person, it still isn't as good at the templar ultimate and people are going to take Light's Champion morph because the healing provided is poor and the buffs are the only thing valuable about the ultimate in the first place.

The problem with both resto + destro staff is imo that they don´t have "competition". Resto is the only defensive magica weapon option. Destro is the only offensive one.

This leads to the poor state the magica weaponlines are currently in. They´re used anyways and by not having an alternative that should ideally see use aswell there is no need to put any effort into balancing them.

Things don´t need to be desireable if they´re the only option. And zos has gone out of their way assuring thats the case by nerfing possible ways to utilize dw and shields for magica.

Jep

There are 3 DD Stamina weapon lines and only 1 DD Magicka weapon line.
(S&B and Resto being defensive/support)

The solution is perhaps very simple:

Split the Destro up in 3 separate Magicka weapon lines !!!

With different abilities and passives and with 3 different Ultimates.

EDIT:

What we now have is one weapon lines flavored with the 3 kinds of elemental damage.
But once we have really 3 weapon lines, they can each have a truly another character
from more defensive to more offensive
from more sustain to more burst
etc

Welp I'm hopeful to inform you that I've concocted as solution to our magical limitations with my Duel Wand suggestion that hopefully won't disappoint as much as the Staff ultimates.

First off, as others have already said this Resto staff ultimate is too confined & does more or less the same same thing as Vigor but less accessible & as a magic alt won't stack with the extra 30s heal & brutality of momentum. My first impression comes from this post, were the stats appear to be unscaled. The base concept for it would be to give u a sterling defense for 5s. But as a magic user what good is their to be done in 5s without CC immunity & without an ultimate. Were as Templars just get a better effect out of using their healing ultimate & Sorcs & DKs just get a better effect out of stacking both wards. In PvE If you get enough instant damage to shatter both wards, 9/10 times thats more than enough damage to insta kill you & a 1/2s tic is not going to save you from that. On top of that there's more then enough sets like Widowmaker that can do that much damage + befoul players in PvP.
The morphs I've seen add status effects that a Templar/healer would already have down if they were holding on for their life & those ultimate effects won't stack with the ability's. It's duration is nothing to be boastful of for an ultimate nor its spread for a healers main.
Desto alt is week, Costly, & outperformed by the bow (Stams superior range line.) ult, by every measure.
For Example(s):
A: It dose more damage in half the time
B (the Big one): It's extremely more subtle, 2 second activation of A visually giant AoE that only the ensnared, stam depleted, magic user couldn't walk out of. The bow ult can be charged in stealth of zerg or built mechanic. Unless ballista Morphed, encouraging more ppl to do the mortifyingly insane extra damage morph seeing fist pages #'s. That can be done from incognito.
C: What logic, no midnight binge brought that ultimate cost. Have you seen stams Ultimates, you thought that was the overpowered one? The bow Ultimate is 75 less & a Proxy det Bat swarm replacing DW ult is 100pts less. It cost more then barrier & that move has a morph to help regain ultimate it's so much. Do you know which morph people use? Welp It's that one.

Not saying something as cool as the duel wield ult can't come to the game but it's physical damage only status isn't the most balancing thing to add to the game. Especially being it essentially does a better job then both magic Resto -Destro Ults.
-It adds another HoT to get stacked for Stam & Its devastating instantly applied area sweep can amount to more damage then the Destro ult with both morphs!! With as low as its cost is, Bad players in PvP are almost guaranteed to get it back before it's effects even end. How hard is it to get four kills after that? Not to mention it could proc any world of poison that could make it lethal by itself.

Tonnopesce

Dracane wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

@Dracane the bat Swarm cost a half ( full vamp stage 4) and teorically deals half the damage (5 sec compared to 10) or i'm missing something?
Even the radius is smaller.

Yes, you are missing something.
It might not have the same duration per cast, but it has a higher uptime, so this gets negated completely.

It will actually deal more damage in the same time period, because its base damage is slightly higher. Don't forget, that it can also restore health and you can use it on any weapon you want.

... There is even the +% max magika that the meteor have....

Ok base on what i can read/ see Yes meteor outperforms the destro ultimate. I WANT TO GO HOME AND TEST STUFF....

To bad this evening is movie day with my wife so i will stress here a little more.

The destro ultimate Based on a frost weapon does an area stun?

DirtySmeegs33

Hate the destro ult. Damage is underwhelming. Costs way too much. And the biggest dissapointment is that an AOE dot is not needed... like at all. Every class has many other more efficient options. Please don't buff this. Change it completely! Single target or magicka return. Perhaps something that adds buff to elemental effects so builds can feel more distinct.

Junipus

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for Weapon Ultimates. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• What’s your favorite Weapon Ultimate, and why?
• Are there any Weapon Ultimates that you’d like to see more powerful? Which one, and what would you like to see changed?
• Are you considering using any of these new Ultimates in place of your current Ultimate? If so, why?
• Do you have any other general feedback?

@ZOS_GinaBruno

• Two-handed, because of the ridiculously overpowered and imbalanced ultimate regen morph.
• Yes, restoration staff to increase its Major force buff to at least 4 players including the caster and increase its duration to 8 seconds.
• The previously mentioned two-handed morph, because why the hell would anyone use anything else??
• Yes, for the love of sanity and balance of any sort, change the two-handed ultimate to only bypass 50% of a targets resistance and not transfer it to the player. Also change the full cost refund to 20 ultimate gained either while killing a target while slotted (a la Soul Harvest) or 20 ultimate gained if a target is killed while the 8 second resistance transfer is active.

RoyJade

For the 2H ultimate, the CC immunity morph need to be removed, and the armor-stealing base effect need to be the morph. On the other hand, the ult refund need to be nerfed or changed.

DUTCH_REAPER

Wish there were some way to make the DW one viable as a magic user since most mag classes run around with 2 swords.

Hiero_Glyph

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Wish there were some way to make the DW one viable as a magic user since most mag classes run around with 2 swords.

Yeah, DW should be a hybrid line akin to a spellsword and both the passives and ultimate should be made viable for magicka users. It's sad when a single DW passve outperformss the entire Destro line.

KoreanAwtamatic

Destro staff ultimate is very lackluster and the cost is too much. Magic users need an ultimate that has some burst not an aoe or damage over time. Why can't one of the duel wield morphs provide a magic damage burst ultimate for all the melee Magic users.

IxskullzxI

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

There is a lot of commentary on how lackluster the Destro ult is - and for good reason. If I want to use an overly expensive large AoE DOT, I most certainly will be using standard, veil, negate, and Nova because they have other important functions besides damage.

There is not enough discussion on how bad the resto staff ultimate. If I am reading the description correctly, only ONE person gets that heal and the buff. It is not replacing warhorn, it doesn't provided nearly as much healing as the Templar ultimate (which is itself not very good), and is something that would not help complete a Raid or Trial faster. Also, who is going to take the Life giver morph? While that at least has the virtue of healing more than one person, it still isn't as good at the templar ultimate and people are going to take Light's Champion morph because the healing provided is poor and the buffs are the only thing valuable about the ultimate in the first place.

The problem with both resto + destro staff is imo that they don´t have "competition". Resto is the only defensive magica weapon option. Destro is the only offensive one.

This leads to the poor state the magica weaponlines are currently in. They´re used anyways and by not having an alternative that should ideally see use aswell there is no need to put any effort into balancing them.

Things don´t need to be desireable if they´re the only option. And zos has gone out of their way assuring thats the case by nerfing possible ways to utilize dw and shields for magica.

Jep

There are 3 DD Stamina weapon lines and only 1 DD Magicka weapon line.
(S&B and Resto being defensive/support)

The solution is perhaps very simple:

Split the Destro up in 3 separate Magicka weapon lines !!!

With different abilities and passives and with 3 different Ultimates.

EDIT:

What we now have is one weapon lines flavored with the 3 kinds of elemental damage.
But once we have really 3 weapon lines, they can each have a truly another character
from more defensive to more offensive
from more sustain to more burst
etc

We should have a magicka morph for each weapon ability. ZoS needs to realize that destro staff isn't the only weapon magicka users use. They need to accept that and accommodate for that.

Dracane

Tonnopesce wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Tonnopesce wrote: »

@Dracane the bat Swarm cost a half ( full vamp stage 4) and teorically deals half the damage (5 sec compared to 10) or i'm missing something?
Even the radius is smaller.

Yes, you are missing something.
It might not have the same duration per cast, but it has a higher uptime, so this gets negated completely.

It will actually deal more damage in the same time period, because its base damage is slightly higher. Don't forget, that it can also restore health and you can use it on any weapon you want.

... There is even the +% max magika that the meteor have....

Ok base on what i can read/ see Yes meteor outperforms the destro ultimate. I WANT TO GO HOME AND TEST STUFF....

To bad this evening is movie day with my wife so i will stress here a little more.

The destro ultimate Based on a frost weapon does an area stun?

No, it has no secondary effects. It only deals damage.
If you decide for the morph elemental rage, then it has a 100% chance to apply a status effect
And fire deals a bit more damage, frost decreases cost by 25 and lightning lasts 2 seconds longer. But this morph is unusable in pvp.

Khaos_Bane

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

There is a lot of commentary on how lackluster the Destro ult is - and for good reason. If I want to use an overly expensive large AoE DOT, I most certainly will be using standard, veil, negate, and Nova because they have other important functions besides damage.

There is not enough discussion on how bad the resto staff ultimate. If I am reading the description correctly, only ONE person gets that heal and the buff. It is not replacing warhorn, it doesn't provided nearly as much healing as the Templar ultimate (which is itself not very good), and is something that would not help complete a Raid or Trial faster. Also, who is going to take the Life giver morph? While that at least has the virtue of healing more than one person, it still isn't as good at the templar ultimate and people are going to take Light's Champion morph because the healing provided is poor and the buffs are the only thing valuable about the ultimate in the first place.

The problem with both resto + destro staff is imo that they don´t have "competition". Resto is the only defensive magica weapon option. Destro is the only offensive one.

This leads to the poor state the magica weaponlines are currently in. They´re used anyways and by not having an alternative that should ideally see use aswell there is no need to put any effort into balancing them.

Things don´t need to be desireable if they´re the only option. And zos has gone out of their way assuring thats the case by nerfing possible ways to utilize dw and shields for magica.

Jep

There are 3 DD Stamina weapon lines and only 1 DD Magicka weapon line.
(S&B and Resto being defensive/support)

The solution is perhaps very simple:

Split the Destro up in 3 separate Magicka weapon lines !!!

With different abilities and passives and with 3 different Ultimates.

EDIT:

What we now have is one weapon lines flavored with the 3 kinds of elemental damage.
But once we have really 3 weapon lines, they can each have a truly another character
from more defensive to more offensive
from more sustain to more burst
etc

Yep, splitting staves into skill lines by element would be amazing, but ZoS is LAZY with MAG weapons. They put ZERO thought into the ultimates and it is glaringly obvious. If Wrobel only likes the STA skills they need to bring someone else in to design MAG, because this is complete BS.

Xsorus

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I think it'll probably be changed simply because of the whining; I mean it isn't great in PvE, and it sucks for Solo PvP.

But like most AOE's you stack of enough of it, its going to be annoying...Its a 12 meter radius PBAE basically....It's going to get stacked....If they up its damage even more so.

It won't be stacked. Or very rarely. You don't stack nova, veil or standard because you'll likely take a negate on your stack. Same here, except that this ultimate cost more and does less damage.

While it is true Negate will hit them just like every other build its also a lot harder to hit this setup simply because one of the morphs centers it on the caster and follows the caster around. I think it'll be used simply because of that. It'll most certainly be used on Pushes.

Healing bats is better for pushes. Also the 12m radius is only for the fixed position morph of lightning staff. Bats offer more defense with the same dmg and 40% less cost at 50% less duration. Meteor offers more offensive potential at 30 to 70% less cost depending on targets hit.

The point is: Magica does not need another aoe ultimate for whatever purpose. It already has those. Plenty for every imaginable scenario.
They either have to make it better than it´s competitors in one aspect (it does the same (within 10%) dmg as negate atm which is hilarious considering negates "secondary" effects) - utility or dmg - or it won´t be used.

I personally don´t think an ultimate offering more aoe dmg than meteor or bats for magica would do the game any good.

The only use i see personally is frost version + woe frost which will permaroot everyone in it for the duration. I´d still prefer a negate, nova or veil.

Bats is super good don't get me wrong; but its not 12m radius (or 10m in frost case, which is also super good). I think its going to be used like that. As for changing it; I also hope personally they don't go for more damage route and go for more utility instead.

WatchYourSixx

Can someone do a parse comparison between meteor and the destro fire ulti? Just looking at a tooltip doesnt tell you anything.

If no one does by monday i will gladly do it.

Dracane

WatchYourSixx wrote: »

Can someone do a parse comparison between meteor and the destro fire ulti? Just looking at a tooltip doesnt tell you anything.

If no one does by monday i will gladly do it.

I will do it for you now, let's see

WatchYourSixx

@Dracane when you post the results, if you dont post a screenshot, please include burning damage as well, as that can boost its damage a decent amount.

Would much prefer 2 tests with 1 screenshot each of nothing but the ulti casted, but i'll be happy with whatever since i cant test it for the time being.