Official Discussion Thread for Weapon Ultimates

Hiero_Glyph

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

There is a lot of commentary on how lackluster the Destro ult is - and for good reason. If I want to use an overly expensive large AoE DOT, I most certainly will be using standard, veil, negate, and Nova because they have other important functions besides damage.

There is not enough discussion on how bad the resto staff ultimate. If I am reading the description correctly, only ONE person gets that heal and the buff. It is not replacing warhorn, it doesn't provided nearly as much healing as the Templar ultimate (which is itself not very good), and is something that would not help complete a Raid or Trial faster. Also, who is going to take the Life giver morph? While that at least has the virtue of healing more than one person, it still isn't as good at the templar ultimate and people are going to take Light's Champion morph because the healing provided is poor and the buffs are the only thing valuable about the ultimate in the first place.

The problem with both resto + destro staff is imo that they don´t have "competition". Resto is the only defensive magica weapon option. Destro is the only offensive one.

This leads to the poor state the magica weaponlines are currently in. They´re used anyways and by not having an alternative that should ideally see use aswell there is no need to put any effort into balancing them.

Things don´t need to be desireable if they´re the only option. And zos has gone out of their way assuring thats the case by nerfing possible ways to utilize dw and shields for magica.

Jep

There are 3 DD Stamina weapon lines and only 1 DD Magicka weapon line.
(S&B and Resto being defensive/support)

The solution is perhaps very simple:

Split the Destro up in 3 separate Magicka weapon lines !!!

With different abilities and passives and with 3 different Ultimates.

EDIT:

What we now have is one weapon lines flavored with the 3 kinds of elemental damage.
But once we have really 3 weapon lines, they can each have a truly another character
from more defensive to more offensive
from more sustain to more burst
etc

Yep, splitting staves into skill lines by element would be amazing, but ZoS is LAZY with MAG weapons. They put ZERO thought into the ultimates and it is glaringly obvious. If Wrobel only likes the STA skills they need to bring someone else in to design MAG, because this is complete BS.

At this point I don't see a viable alternative to this. While having each skill work differently for each of the 3 staff types is functionally different, it kills all variety since you cannot optimize the morphs for each staff type.

Also, we realize that fire is burst, ice is crowd control, and lightning is AoE but these are more flavor changes and not something you can create a full build around.

I would personally love to see each destruction staff type get its own skill tree and ultimate. This would also let those 386 spell damage for cold/shock actually become viable and could stack with the 386 destro set, just like physical and 2H/DW can.

Anyway, I don't see a viable alternative for magicka users at this point. ZOS, give each Destruction Staff type its own skill tree and ultimate.

Dracane

@WatchYourSixx
I started with elemental storm. I tried using meteor multiple times, to reach the same crit value of elemental storm. But meteor always had like twice the crit chance. I don't know why. But even IF elemental storm had the same crit chance, it would still be less damage.

Derra

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

I would personally love to see each destruction staff type get its own skill tree and ultimate. This would also let those 386 spell damage for cold/shock actually become viable and could stack with the 386 destro set, just like physical and 2H/DW can.

Well we´d still have nothing to boost magic dmg dealing abilities. Which is hilarious in itself.

Cronopoly

But all is not lost by comparison. @Alcast posted a quick video of the 2Hand a Bow Ult's in use against single targets explaining their mechanics. The problem I see is exactly what I stated earlier in this thread, the Synergies of multiple sets making Already strong Stamina abilities Godlike to many.

Nightblade is Back Baby! J/K they never left lol.

In the video at 2:00 minutes with 2hand Ult, he hit for a little bit, just 106,555! damage ...poor PVE beetle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLcRjBSEhTg

covenant_merchant

The two-handed ultimate...

Khaos_Bane

Cronopoly wrote: »

What were they thinking?

Armitas

Change shield discipline added effect to a passive that makes your L/H attacks scale from Magicka and Spell damage. Maybe even have the s/b abilities themselves scale off magicka and spell damage while costing stamina. That would at least give us a magicka damage option other than destro staff.

Xsorus

Dracane wrote: »

@WatchYourSixx
I started with elemental storm. I tried using meteor multiple times, to reach the same crit value of elemental storm. But meteor always had like twice the crit chance. I don't know why. But even IF elemental storm had the same crit chance, it would still be less damage.

Whats your weapon crit at? Possibly Destruction Staff Ult using Weapon Crit instead of Spell Crit?

Xsorus

Cronopoly wrote: »

But all is not lost by comparison. @Alcast posted a quick video of the 2Hand a Bow Ult's in use against single targets explaining their mechanics. The problem I see is exactly what I stated earlier in this thread, the Synergies of multiple sets making Already strong Stamina abilities Godlike to many.

Nightblade is Back Baby! J/K they never left lol.

In the video at 2:00 minutes with 2hand Ult, he hit for a little bit, just 106,555! damage ...poor PVE beetle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLcRjBSEhTg

You can't really base Ult damage off Beetles vs PvP.

The Turret though for Bow is super good in PvP though it seems.

The other Morph suffers from Soul Assault problem but Turret works great.

Alcast

Xsorus wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

But all is not lost by comparison. @Alcast posted a quick video of the 2Hand a Bow Ult's in use against single targets explaining their mechanics. The problem I see is exactly what I stated earlier in this thread, the Synergies of multiple sets making Already strong Stamina abilities Godlike to many.

Nightblade is Back Baby! J/K they never left lol.

In the video at 2:00 minutes with 2hand Ult, he hit for a little bit, just 106,555! damage ...poor PVE beetle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLcRjBSEhTg

You can't really base Ult damage off Beetles vs PvP.

The Turret though for Bow is super good in PvP though it seems.

The other Morph suffers from Soul Assault problem but Turret works great.

I am sure with that ulti you could hit 200k on that poor beetle.

The only thing I do not like is that it gives you INSTA ulti back. Should be reduced to 50% or smth like that.

Hiero_Glyph

Alcast wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

But all is not lost by comparison. @Alcast posted a quick video of the 2Hand a Bow Ult's in use against single targets explaining their mechanics. The problem I see is exactly what I stated earlier in this thread, the Synergies of multiple sets making Already strong Stamina abilities Godlike to many.

Nightblade is Back Baby! J/K they never left lol.

In the video at 2:00 minutes with 2hand Ult, he hit for a little bit, just 106,555! damage ...poor PVE beetle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLcRjBSEhTg

You can't really base Ult damage off Beetles vs PvP.

The Turret though for Bow is super good in PvP though it seems.

The other Morph suffers from Soul Assault problem but Turret works great.

I am sure with that ulti you could hit 200k on that poor beetle.

The only thing I do not like is that it gives you INSTA ulti back. Should be reduced to 50% or smth like that.

Or regen it over time.

Xsorus

Alcast wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

But all is not lost by comparison. @Alcast posted a quick video of the 2Hand a Bow Ult's in use against single targets explaining their mechanics. The problem I see is exactly what I stated earlier in this thread, the Synergies of multiple sets making Already strong Stamina abilities Godlike to many.

Nightblade is Back Baby! J/K they never left lol.

In the video at 2:00 minutes with 2hand Ult, he hit for a little bit, just 106,555! damage ...poor PVE beetle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLcRjBSEhTg

You can't really base Ult damage off Beetles vs PvP.

The Turret though for Bow is super good in PvP though it seems.

The other Morph suffers from Soul Assault problem but Turret works great.

I am sure with that ulti you could hit 200k on that poor beetle.

The only thing I do not like is that it gives you INSTA ulti back. Should be reduced to 50% or smth like that.

That's only if it kills the target no? Suppose you could use it to run around one shotting beetles.

Alcast

Xsorus wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Cronopoly wrote: »

But all is not lost by comparison. @Alcast posted a quick video of the 2Hand a Bow Ult's in use against single targets explaining their mechanics. The problem I see is exactly what I stated earlier in this thread, the Synergies of multiple sets making Already strong Stamina abilities Godlike to many.

Nightblade is Back Baby! J/K they never left lol.

In the video at 2:00 minutes with 2hand Ult, he hit for a little bit, just 106,555! damage ...poor PVE beetle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLcRjBSEhTg

You can't really base Ult damage off Beetles vs PvP.

The Turret though for Bow is super good in PvP though it seems.

The other Morph suffers from Soul Assault problem but Turret works great.

I am sure with that ulti you could hit 200k on that poor beetle.

The only thing I do not like is that it gives you INSTA ulti back. Should be reduced to 50% or smth like that.

That's only if it kills the target no? Suppose you could use it to run around one shotting beetles.

Death to all beetles in the game.

juhasman

Ok so someone want to tell me this is ballanced





Even with 1 tick on crit and applying burning status effect still destro staff ultimate deals less dmg and cost more. What the hell Zenimax? The larger area is anough to equals the deal? No ! I'm telling this right now noone will use this ultimate over meteor which also gives 2% more magicka when slotted. Comparing to stamina weapon ultimates this one is more then underhelming. There is only 1 magicka offensive weapon and 4 stamina offensive weapons so this 1 magicka weapon should have ultimate that outshines others and instead of this we get trash that noone will ever use. Well maybe if someone like fireworks. I would rather preffer to use dual wield ultimate on magicka build running with dual wield/destro then destro staff ultimate.

TipsyDrow

They missed the boat completely on destro staff ultis. They should have been single target burst ultis with a ost of 150-175
Flame arrow/lightning bolt/icespike (with relative affects). Why anyone would use the destro ulti as it is now is beyond me.

Tormy

Pls revamp destro Ult before release

Hiero_Glyph

TipsyDrow wrote: »

They missed the boat completely on destro staff ultis. They should have been single target burst ultis with a ost of 150-175
Flame arrow/lightning bolt/icespike (with relative affects). Why anyone would use the destro ulti as it is now is beyond me.

Even if it was single target it would take longer to cast than a kamehameha. You know ZOS will never give magicka the same burst as stamina.

Ffastyl

I have tried a few (3) weapon ultimates in combat and these are my thoughts on each:

Two-Handed -
Seems powerful or even overpowered on paper but comes out lackluster in practice. The general player has little armor already (largely negated by Penetration) so not much damage is gained by ignoring it. The base damage also seems to be 20% more than Uppercut, so combined with a 144 cost (after class passive cost reduction), it does not come out frequent enough to make that damage worthwhile.

This ultimate really seems to want to be a defensive ultimate -- which I approve of! The ultimates seem to be aimed at making each weapon type more versatile and I think they largely succeed ("largely" explained below). I think the up time on the defensive buff is too short to make good use of it as well. Extending it to 10 secoonds, at the trade-off of increased cost or reduced damage, would make it serve better as a defensive ultimate. Alternatively lowering the cost will have the same effect as increasing the duration -- increased up time. This applies to the Berzerker Rage morph, and I realize Onslaught is focused more as an offensive ultimate. If the trade-off for increased up time is lower base damage, then that lost base damage can be returned in the Onslaught morph or just be an exclusive balance of Berzerker Rage.

Dual Wield -
Lacerate is an ultimate that may actually be a tad too strong or just right, depending on Dev preference. With moderate damage output (2.1k wep), this ultimate combined with Maelstrom weapons and other DoTs has secured me kills in duels. The ultimate also helps Dual Wield perform better against hordes, filling a similar role to Brawler from Two-Handed.

The difference in morphs, double duration versus 5% bonus damage for each hit, seems like an easy choice initially. However the 5% bonus damage per hit applies not only to the ultimate but all damage inflicted while the ultimate is active. It will have a higher pick rate amongst DPS for this. However after combat testing, I personally will prefer the increased duration to maintain pressure on opponents.

One-Hand and Shield -
Shield Wall is the one ultimate that does not add versatility to the line. And that is not a bad thing. Stamina recovers while Shield Wall is active, so it will help immensely in Trials and other PvE content where turtling is a must for most tanks. To that end I also believe Shield Wall will help more tanks get into Trials as this relieves some of the resource drain from turtling.

On paper Spell Wall seems the better morph -- "reflect all spell projectiles for 5 seconds? Sign me up," but Shield Discipline may in fact be better. Especially for offensive users of sword and shield. Negating the cost of One-Hand and Shield skills while auto-blocking effectively eliminates all stress on Stamina (save for Bash, Dodge Roll and Break Free).


I think the morphs are well thought out for each ultimate, neither being clearly stronger than the other (save at first glance). The ultimates also strive to handle the weakness of each weapon line, which is appreciated. However, some ultimates do too many things to be effective at what we want them to be at (i.e. Berzerker Strike).

runagate

Here's a non-bug/non-functionality note about the dual wield ultimate and its morphs:

When playing a stam sorc with surge, blade cloak and especially hurricane up and, especially when using the new Goonies gimp-guy Undaunted hat that makes magma like the minotaurs in the Gold Coast you absolutely cannot see the visual effect of this ultimate. It must look an awful lot like Hurricane already does, but it's entirely subsumed by other character-centered AoE visuals.

It might be best if it weren't deployed solely under the character's feet.

It may not matter so much for the user, as they know whether they triggered the 6 or 12 second version of the skill and know roughly how long it'll last.

It will really, really matter for PvP opponents were are sitting in the equivalent of bat swarm, potatoes unknowingly providing a crap-ton of healing to their 1vXing enemy dual wielder.

Yoyuyi999

why is the 1h/shield and bow ult insane as *** and destro and resto ult basically useless

Lokryn

The Dual Wield and 2 handed animations are pretty uninspiring. I don't expect some kind of Asian MMO animation but they definitely need some more flair.

IxskullzxI

Lokryn wrote: »

The Dual Wield and 2 handed animations are pretty uninspiring. I don't expect some kind of Asian MMO animation but they definitely need a nerf.

There. Fixed it for you.

Shadesofkin

I think the biggest issue I have with the Destruction Ultimate is that you have something essentially sitting right there with the Celestial Mage. She sends out a shockwave that does a ton of damage and knocks down players. Just...do that, but make it elemental type damage and give each element a specific difference. Lightning can be much bigger, Fire can do more damage, Ice can debuff.

I mean, the ultimate as is is pretty, but it's so utterly redundant that it's not even an option.

SublimeSparo

Shadesofkin wrote: »

I think the biggest issue I have with the Destruction Ultimate is that you have something essentially sitting right there with the Celestial Mage. She sends out a shockwave that does a ton of damage and knocks down players. Just...do that, but make it elemental type damage and give each element a specific difference. Lightning can be much bigger, Fire can do more damage, Ice can debuff.

I mean, the ultimate as is is pretty, but it's so utterly redundant that it's not even an option.

Chain Lightning would be awesome against zergs

SirMewser

This is what I think ZoS should do:

Destro
I think the Elemental Rage morph's elemental effects need to be placed into the base effect and the Eye of the Storm morph.

• Always applying burning with a fire staff.
• Always applying chilled with a frost staff.
• Always applying concussed with a lightning staff.

The potency of Elemental Rage's perk for having a certain staff should then be increased by 50% along with an additional effect.

• Flame damage further increased and evokes minor fracture while active.
• Frost further reduces the ultimate cost by 38 up from 25 and evokes minor breach while active.
• Lightning endures the ultimate for an additional 3 seconds up from 2 seconds and radius increased by 3 meters up from 2 meters.
  

Change Eye of the Storm so it follows the targeted enemy instead of following the caster (this is more unique and less like bat swarms).
Reduce the overhaul cost of the ultimate to 200 down from 250.
Fix the tooltip so it says lightning also increases the radius of the ultimate so people see that the "10 meters" is not just randomly becoming "12 meters" when using a lightning staff.

Resto
Life Giver morph concept is interesting but there are some odd things.

1. Barrier negates Blessing of Protection as resistance is ignored with shields, so really the duration of benefit is 2 seconds unless the barrier is out damaged before then.
2. This ability over heals easily, therefore, the barrier is only beneficial if the skill is timed and hits the right target (this sounds fine mechanically as this ward becomes more potent, otherwise, quite situational).
3. This ability says it affects "yourself or him/her" instead of "and". It should affect atleast two people
   

Light's Champion, however, will grant critical damage and damage reduction for a short 5 duration.

1. This might not land on a DPS, otherwise, less potential.
2. Major Force is already in Aggressive Horn in a much more effective and group based way, have it useful and diverse.

The new ability should be changed to "Redemption" (meaning players regain possession of themselves at the cost of dying/ultimate consumption).

• The one lowest health target (percent based on missing health) will be granted a 20 second blessing that allows them to resurrect upon their next death to 10% health.
• This morph will increase the cost to 250
• This morph will consume a grand soul gems: for a soul gem in possession, the cost of the skill is reduced by 25.
• This ability only affects members of your group while grouped to prevent it from targeting at random.
• Upon death there is a short delay during an animation effect to show the skill triggered the resurrection of the player.
• Upon resurrection player recover X health every second over 5 seconds as originally intended but weaker (this will help counter pvp players timing the resurrection while in pve will help players potentially get through enduring AoE as they will not (should not) have the option when to revive with this ability).

Clarkieson

Shadesofkin wrote: »

I think the biggest issue I have with the Destruction Ultimate is that you have something essentially sitting right there with the Celestial Mage. She sends out a shockwave that does a ton of damage and knocks down players. Just...do that, but make it elemental type damage and give each element a specific difference. Lightning can be much bigger, Fire can do more damage, Ice can debuff.

I mean, the ultimate as is is pretty, but it's so utterly redundant that it's not even an option.

I love this idea, from what i have seen so far the destruction satff ultimate is like tickling the enemy with a feather. Compared to the 2h ultimate its just not in the same league

Give us the mages chain lightning

Please

Pretty please with a cherry on top and chocolate sprinkles

Dracane

juhasman wrote: »

Ok so someone want to tell me this is ballanced





Even with 1 tick on crit and applying burning status effect still destro staff ultimate deals less dmg and cost more. What the hell Zenimax? The larger area is anough to equals the deal? No ! I'm telling this right now noone will use this ultimate over meteor which also gives 2% more magicka when slotted. Comparing to stamina weapon ultimates this one is more then underhelming. There is only 1 magicka offensive weapon and 4 stamina offensive weapons so this 1 magicka weapon should have ultimate that outshines others and instead of this we get trash that noone will ever use. Well maybe if someone like fireworks. I would rather preffer to use dual wield ultimate on magicka build running with dual wield/destro then destro staff ultimate.

Thanks for this, nice write up.
And you even used elemental rage, while I used eye of the storm
Let's see. I am confident, that they will offer us some love during the next few weeks.

I mean, 90% of the comments in this thread are (rightfully) complaining about the destruction staff ultimate. They can't ignore this. But I'm afraid, they will give it a typical Zenimax buff. Like 10% reduced cost which obviously wouldn't change anything at all.

Humatiel

Dracane wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Ok so someone want to tell me this is ballanced





Even with 1 tick on crit and applying burning status effect still destro staff ultimate deals less dmg and cost more. What the hell Zenimax? The larger area is anough to equals the deal? No ! I'm telling this right now noone will use this ultimate over meteor which also gives 2% more magicka when slotted. Comparing to stamina weapon ultimates this one is more then underhelming. There is only 1 magicka offensive weapon and 4 stamina offensive weapons so this 1 magicka weapon should have ultimate that outshines others and instead of this we get trash that noone will ever use. Well maybe if someone like fireworks. I would rather preffer to use dual wield ultimate on magicka build running with dual wield/destro then destro staff ultimate.

Thanks for this, nice write up.
And you even used elemental rage, while I used eye of the storm
Let's see. I am confident, that they will offer us some love during the next few weeks.

I mean, 90% of the comments in this thread are (rightfully) complaining about the destruction staff ultimate. They can't ignore this. But I'm afraid, they will give it a typical Zenimax buff. Like 10% reduced cost which obviously wouldn't change anything at all.

As long as ZoS follows three steps of logic they will be fine:

1. Will it offer a group utility that is better then negate (if yes stop if no move down)
2. Will it offer more dps then a meteor (if yes stop if no move down)
3. Out of options, so reduce the cost to 100 ult (70 with sorc passive) and be done with it.

TipsyDrow

Dracane wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Ok so someone want to tell me this is ballanced





Even with 1 tick on crit and applying burning status effect still destro staff ultimate deals less dmg and cost more. What the hell Zenimax? The larger area is anough to equals the deal? No ! I'm telling this right now noone will use this ultimate over meteor which also gives 2% more magicka when slotted. Comparing to stamina weapon ultimates this one is more then underhelming. There is only 1 magicka offensive weapon and 4 stamina offensive weapons so this 1 magicka weapon should have ultimate that outshines others and instead of this we get trash that noone will ever use. Well maybe if someone like fireworks. I would rather preffer to use dual wield ultimate on magicka build running with dual wield/destro then destro staff ultimate.

Thanks for this, nice write up.
And you even used elemental rage, while I used eye of the storm
Let's see. I am confident, that they will offer us some love during the next few weeks.

I mean, 90% of the comments in this thread are (rightfully) complaining about the destruction staff ultimate. They can't ignore this. But I'm afraid, they will give it a typical Zenimax buff. Like 10% reduced cost which obviously wouldn't change anything at all.

It's a bad ultimate. No one is going to use a destro staff aoe ultimate. They could lower the cost to 175 and up the damage 25% and still no one would bother with it. There are already a plethora of magicka aoe ultis that are all good for certain situations. Destro staff needed to be a single target burst ulti that hit like an M1 Abrams tank.

Dracane

Humatiel wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Ok so someone want to tell me this is ballanced





Even with 1 tick on crit and applying burning status effect still destro staff ultimate deals less dmg and cost more. What the hell Zenimax? The larger area is anough to equals the deal? No ! I'm telling this right now noone will use this ultimate over meteor which also gives 2% more magicka when slotted. Comparing to stamina weapon ultimates this one is more then underhelming. There is only 1 magicka offensive weapon and 4 stamina offensive weapons so this 1 magicka weapon should have ultimate that outshines others and instead of this we get trash that noone will ever use. Well maybe if someone like fireworks. I would rather preffer to use dual wield ultimate on magicka build running with dual wield/destro then destro staff ultimate.

Thanks for this, nice write up.
And you even used elemental rage, while I used eye of the storm
Let's see. I am confident, that they will offer us some love during the next few weeks.

I mean, 90% of the comments in this thread are (rightfully) complaining about the destruction staff ultimate. They can't ignore this. But I'm afraid, they will give it a typical Zenimax buff. Like 10% reduced cost which obviously wouldn't change anything at all.

As long as ZoS follows three steps of logic they will be fine:

1. Will it offer a group utility that is better then negate (if yes stop if no move down)
2. Will it offer more dps then a meteor (if yes stop if no move down)
3. Out of options, so reduce the cost to 100 ult (70 with sorc passive) and be done with it.

I would much prefer option number 3.
If it would cost 100 base, then I think it would be okayish. At leats it had a better uptime.

But unless they don't heavily buff this ult, I can't see myself or anyone using it for serious business.