What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?

SilentRaven1972

No, don't ever add these into the game.

It's not just about trying to save others from the pain of disappointment (regular, gambling addiction related, depression related, or otherwise). We have seen what these things have done in other MMO's, we've seen the downward spiral, the failing communities, and the corporate greed that could creep in (the boxes could just be the start). We want to save a game we love. We don't want our beloved Tamriel to crash and burn, or become so toxic we warn our friends away.

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

Well, let me think back a bit:

starkerealm wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.

So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.

The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.

Okay, let me explain why this is a problem.

Luckybags make A LOT of money for an MMO. It comes with increased turnover, but these things will keep companies going. Cryptic was pretty open at one point saying that they had players who were spending over 5k a year on keys.

Why does this matter? I mean, more money for the game, right? Actually... not so much.

So, when you're evaluating, as a developer, what to upgrade or fix in your game, you need to evaluate what your ROI is going to be. In a normal MMO, there's a serious incentive to fix issues with the game. That's where your money is coming from, that's what you need to fix.

But, lucky bags exist in, almost total, isolation from that. You have people who will pay to roll the dice endlessly.

This means, for a developer, if they've got a bugged achievement that won't award a cool skin for finishing a dungeon, or a bug that causes the lucky bags to pay out at a higher than intended rate... they're going to fix the bag drop rate right now, because that affects their bottom line. The other issue stays low on the priorities list.

Similarly, if you're looking at developing new content, the stuff that's going into the bag will be worth A LOT more to you, as a developer, so it will get higher priority than actual new content.

Finally, there's a huge incentive to making the bags more attractive to consumers. Initially it's enough to say, "well, just cosmetic stuff," but inevitably you're going to see stuff going into those bags that's more valuable than what you can get in game, just to keep people coming back. Stuff like: unique sets, or consumables that do things you cannot replicate in game. Consider that the XP scrolls are already considerably better than the ambrosia pots you can get in game naturally, simply because they last longer.

Now, initially you can say those unique sets aren't pay to win because they're not better than the ones in game, but the serious temptation will be to go that route. Even when ZOS has said they won't at this point. They also said they wouldn't be sticking luckybags in the game AT ALL, and have now gone back on that promise.

What you're seeing here is, actually, the death of the game. The luckybags will make more money than the normal content, meaning they'll get priority, they'll become more important to the developers than the game itself, simply because it makes them more money.

They're not holding a gun to anyone's head, but the decision to include these will warp and corrupt the entire development pipeline, just like it has for every other MMO that implemented a similar system.

starkerealm wrote: »

Well, it actually devalues the game. I mean, makes the game less valuable as a product. MMOs require a community to keep going. All that random blathering in zone that's tempered by longtime players who can actually provide coherent information? What happens when they start to leave? When no one can actually answer the questions getting asked in those zones? And, granted, that's an extreme example, but it's one I've logged into on other games that went to boxes and gutted their community. When the vets leave, the game becomes less accessible for newbies.

I can find some other, non-I need to protect you from yourself posts, if you really want, but there's far more wrong with this than just players with impulse control issues having problems.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

Hitting rock bottom is usually suicide in a lot of addictions and mental health issues.

Yes, I thought about this as well - but you see what people post about this who are in favor of those boxes - they even feel insulted, when one just tells the truth about why those boxes are there in the first place. To me they are an immoral offer, and against the law in my home country - taking advantage of weaknesses of people to achieve an significantly increased price for an item - it is exactly that what those boxes are for. It is a law against immoral business offers, so most of my fellow citizens in Germany will feel exactly the same. It might not be in other countries - China is an example, there you can legally abuse the weakness of people, there is no protective law against that.

Well, it is difficult - one day there might be a consent between nations, what is immoral business practice and what is not, but currently it is a real mess. That an Elder Scrolls title has to do that is troublesome at least - and this shows as well in Fallout Shelter and might not stop there - it might not even come from ZOS, but from their peers, Zenimax themselves.

considering the part i put in bold can you

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

So every quarter or so there is a chance that these Crown Crates would turn into Pay to win?

The game can go pay to win everyday, as soon as the devs decide to do so. They haven't gone pay to win yet, in 2 years, there's no particular reason to believe they will do it now or any time soon, crown crates or not.

wow.... a sensible, rational comment.

Just, one that suggests the author hasn't played the game yet.

I know, we all look at stuff like the Imperials and the Julianos set as fair and balanced... until you start seeing those things getting lauded as the best option for certain builds. And then remember that, yeah, ZOS is actually getting paid.

It's not P2W in the extreme, like you get from F2P grindfests, that will just flat out sell you a weapon that does 10% more damage than anything you can otherwise obtain... but, stacking up Spell Damage is still way more obnoxious than stacking up weapon damage, and suddenly Julianos isn't exactly the same as Hundings but on the other bar, it's actually more valuable, given available resources. Anyone else remember the utter tantrums we got about Kena being available to non-subscribers via The Golden? But, wait, it's not P2W, it was just the single best DPS monster set in the game, at the time.

To say nothing of this little gem. It is easier to obtain V16 gear, even now, as a subscriber, than as a free player. Maybe that will change with U12, I don't know, and neither do you. But right now, if you want to make V16 gear as a free player, you need to go to Cyrodiil, or run vet dungeons. As a subscriber, you just need to wander around and listen for thieves caches, or you can start switching to actually useful sets by running content in Wrothgar, Hew's Bane, or on The Gold Coast.

Sure, as a free player you can theoretically catch up, but the opportunity cost is far higher.

That's time that a subscriber can put towards advancing their CR, towards gathering more mats, towards grinding in the new zones.

Maybe U12 will rectify some of this.

But, saying there's no direct statistical advantages for spending money on ESO is flat out wrong.

you forgot to add that you have to buy the box in the first place so that makes it p2w right?

can i what? - do you want to know the law - §138 section 2 BGB.

Nichtig ist insbesondere ein Rechtsgeschäft, durch das jemand unter Ausbeutung der Zwangslage, der Unerfahrenheit, des Mangels an Urteilsvermögen oder der erheblichen Willensschwäche eines anderen sich oder einem Dritten für eine Leistung Vermögensvorteile versprechen oder gewähren lässt, die in einem auffälligen Missverhältnis zu der Leistung stehen.

"der erheblichen Willensschwäche" is referring to what impulse control disorder is like or any addiction basically. "auffälligen Missverhältnis zur der Leistung stehen" means, there is a significant discrepancy between the value offered and what the customer will have paid for it. Furthermore "Mangel an Urteilsvermögen'" can refer to when someone is incapable of grasping what the business deal offers exactly. "Unerfahrenheit" is being inexperienced in the matter. So more than just one of these things are actually given.

sorry?

what does this have to do with the conversation you commented on.....the discussion there was about p2w

No you high-lighted 2 things - in my post as well - the one where I was referring to that law and that most germans will therefore feel like I do about the matter - your comment to this was incomplete - ended in "can you" - and I did not know what you wanted from me, so I assumed you wanted the text of the law.

jedtb16_ESO

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

Hitting rock bottom is usually suicide in a lot of addictions and mental health issues.

Yes, I thought about this as well - but you see what people post about this who are in favor of those boxes - they even feel insulted, when one just tells the truth about why those boxes are there in the first place. To me they are an immoral offer, and against the law in my home country - taking advantage of weaknesses of people to achieve an significantly increased price for an item - it is exactly that what those boxes are for. It is a law against immoral business offers, so most of my fellow citizens in Germany will feel exactly the same. It might not be in other countries - China is an example, there you can legally abuse the weakness of people, there is no protective law against that.

Well, it is difficult - one day there might be a consent between nations, what is immoral business practice and what is not, but currently it is a real mess. That an Elder Scrolls title has to do that is troublesome at least - and this shows as well in Fallout Shelter and might not stop there - it might not even come from ZOS, but from their peers, Zenimax themselves.

considering the part i put in bold can you

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

So every quarter or so there is a chance that these Crown Crates would turn into Pay to win?

The game can go pay to win everyday, as soon as the devs decide to do so. They haven't gone pay to win yet, in 2 years, there's no particular reason to believe they will do it now or any time soon, crown crates or not.

wow.... a sensible, rational comment.

Just, one that suggests the author hasn't played the game yet.

I know, we all look at stuff like the Imperials and the Julianos set as fair and balanced... until you start seeing those things getting lauded as the best option for certain builds. And then remember that, yeah, ZOS is actually getting paid.

It's not P2W in the extreme, like you get from F2P grindfests, that will just flat out sell you a weapon that does 10% more damage than anything you can otherwise obtain... but, stacking up Spell Damage is still way more obnoxious than stacking up weapon damage, and suddenly Julianos isn't exactly the same as Hundings but on the other bar, it's actually more valuable, given available resources. Anyone else remember the utter tantrums we got about Kena being available to non-subscribers via The Golden? But, wait, it's not P2W, it was just the single best DPS monster set in the game, at the time.

To say nothing of this little gem. It is easier to obtain V16 gear, even now, as a subscriber, than as a free player. Maybe that will change with U12, I don't know, and neither do you. But right now, if you want to make V16 gear as a free player, you need to go to Cyrodiil, or run vet dungeons. As a subscriber, you just need to wander around and listen for thieves caches, or you can start switching to actually useful sets by running content in Wrothgar, Hew's Bane, or on The Gold Coast.

Sure, as a free player you can theoretically catch up, but the opportunity cost is far higher.

That's time that a subscriber can put towards advancing their CR, towards gathering more mats, towards grinding in the new zones.

Maybe U12 will rectify some of this.

But, saying there's no direct statistical advantages for spending money on ESO is flat out wrong.

you forgot to add that you have to buy the box in the first place so that makes it p2w right?

can i what? - do you want to know the law - §138 section 2 BGB.

Nichtig ist insbesondere ein Rechtsgeschäft, durch das jemand unter Ausbeutung der Zwangslage, der Unerfahrenheit, des Mangels an Urteilsvermögen oder der erheblichen Willensschwäche eines anderen sich oder einem Dritten für eine Leistung Vermögensvorteile versprechen oder gewähren lässt, die in einem auffälligen Missverhältnis zu der Leistung stehen.

"der erheblichen Willensschwäche" is referring to what impulse control disorder is like or any addiction basically. "auffälligen Missverhältnis zur der Leistung stehen" means, there is a significant discrepancy between the value offered and what the customer will have paid for it. Furthermore "Mangel an Urteilsvermögen'" can refer to when someone is incapable of grasping what the business deal offers exactly. "Unerfahrenheit" is being inexperienced in the matter. So more than just one of these things are actually given.

sorry?

what does this have to do with the conversation you commented on.....the discussion there was about p2w

No you high-lighted 2 things - in my post as well - the one where I was referring to that law and that most germans will therefore feel like I do about the matter - your comment to this was incomplete - ended in "can you" - and I did not know what you wanted from me, so I assumed you wanted the text of the law.

oh that..... no. it was the idea that german companies are beyond reproach, was going to comment but decided against it. i thought i had deleted that.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

Hitting rock bottom is usually suicide in a lot of addictions and mental health issues.

Yes, I thought about this as well - but you see what people post about this who are in favor of those boxes - they even feel insulted, when one just tells the truth about why those boxes are there in the first place. To me they are an immoral offer, and against the law in my home country - taking advantage of weaknesses of people to achieve an significantly increased price for an item - it is exactly that what those boxes are for. It is a law against immoral business offers, so most of my fellow citizens in Germany will feel exactly the same. It might not be in other countries - China is an example, there you can legally abuse the weakness of people, there is no protective law against that.

Well, it is difficult - one day there might be a consent between nations, what is immoral business practice and what is not, but currently it is a real mess. That an Elder Scrolls title has to do that is troublesome at least - and this shows as well in Fallout Shelter and might not stop there - it might not even come from ZOS, but from their peers, Zenimax themselves.

considering the part i put in bold can you

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

So every quarter or so there is a chance that these Crown Crates would turn into Pay to win?

The game can go pay to win everyday, as soon as the devs decide to do so. They haven't gone pay to win yet, in 2 years, there's no particular reason to believe they will do it now or any time soon, crown crates or not.

wow.... a sensible, rational comment.

Just, one that suggests the author hasn't played the game yet.

I know, we all look at stuff like the Imperials and the Julianos set as fair and balanced... until you start seeing those things getting lauded as the best option for certain builds. And then remember that, yeah, ZOS is actually getting paid.

It's not P2W in the extreme, like you get from F2P grindfests, that will just flat out sell you a weapon that does 10% more damage than anything you can otherwise obtain... but, stacking up Spell Damage is still way more obnoxious than stacking up weapon damage, and suddenly Julianos isn't exactly the same as Hundings but on the other bar, it's actually more valuable, given available resources. Anyone else remember the utter tantrums we got about Kena being available to non-subscribers via The Golden? But, wait, it's not P2W, it was just the single best DPS monster set in the game, at the time.

To say nothing of this little gem. It is easier to obtain V16 gear, even now, as a subscriber, than as a free player. Maybe that will change with U12, I don't know, and neither do you. But right now, if you want to make V16 gear as a free player, you need to go to Cyrodiil, or run vet dungeons. As a subscriber, you just need to wander around and listen for thieves caches, or you can start switching to actually useful sets by running content in Wrothgar, Hew's Bane, or on The Gold Coast.

Sure, as a free player you can theoretically catch up, but the opportunity cost is far higher.

That's time that a subscriber can put towards advancing their CR, towards gathering more mats, towards grinding in the new zones.

Maybe U12 will rectify some of this.

But, saying there's no direct statistical advantages for spending money on ESO is flat out wrong.

you forgot to add that you have to buy the box in the first place so that makes it p2w right?

can i what? - do you want to know the law - §138 section 2 BGB.

Nichtig ist insbesondere ein Rechtsgeschäft, durch das jemand unter Ausbeutung der Zwangslage, der Unerfahrenheit, des Mangels an Urteilsvermögen oder der erheblichen Willensschwäche eines anderen sich oder einem Dritten für eine Leistung Vermögensvorteile versprechen oder gewähren lässt, die in einem auffälligen Missverhältnis zu der Leistung stehen.

"der erheblichen Willensschwäche" is referring to what impulse control disorder is like or any addiction basically. "auffälligen Missverhältnis zur der Leistung stehen" means, there is a significant discrepancy between the value offered and what the customer will have paid for it. Furthermore "Mangel an Urteilsvermögen'" can refer to when someone is incapable of grasping what the business deal offers exactly. "Unerfahrenheit" is being inexperienced in the matter. So more than just one of these things are actually given.

sorry?

what does this have to do with the conversation you commented on.....the discussion there was about p2w

No you high-lighted 2 things - in my post as well - the one where I was referring to that law and that most germans will therefore feel like I do about the matter - your comment to this was incomplete - ended in "can you" - and I did not know what you wanted from me, so I assumed you wanted the text of the law.

oh that..... no. it was the idea that german companies are beyond reproach, was going to comment but decided against it. i thought i had deleted that.

Ah ok, that can happen - it is anyway a bit difficult to keep control over the mess in a larger post with many references.

jedtb16_ESO

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."

jedtb16_ESO

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."

no, i was simply asking a question.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

SilentRaven1972 wrote: »

It's not just about trying to save others from the pain of disappointment (regular, gambling addiction related, depression related, or otherwise). We have seen what these things have done in other MMO's, we've seen the downward spiral, the failing communities, and the corporate greed that could creep in (the boxes could just be the start). We want to save a game we love. We don't want our beloved Tamriel to crash and burn, or become so toxic we warn our friends away.

Yeah, this is what hurts the most - seeing dirt thrown on our beloved Tamriel. It could be the exception in the swamp of unpleasant MMOs, but so it will be more and more just another MMO with not much difference to f2p games.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."

no, i was simply asking a question.

When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.

ItsGlaive

No, don't ever add these into the game.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

This thread is going in circles.

Rather the opposite.
I begin to understand what the real problem is for people who are radically against those boxes.
It's not that ZOS is greedy
It's not that they don't have the money
It's not that they really care about potentially ICD-vulnerable players
It's not that cannot resist buying boxes.

It is, plain and simple, that they want the gear that will be exclusive to those boxes. And they feel entitled to buy it under different conditions than what ZOS is offering.

I like it when issues are expressed in true terms.

Okay, true terms. Boxes force players who're after a specific item to spend more to obtain said item. This is why they're being introduced, this is why people are pissed off. It's greed on ZOS' part, and players are now faced with the choice of knowingly going along with it (thus feeling exploited) or going without (thus feeling penalised). Honestly it's that simple. A transparent form of greed, and the user rebelling against it. True terms.

Let's use another example. Restaurants. I don't want to pay £10 for the chance to get the meal of my choosing, that would be ridiculous. Let me choose, pay, and receive what I wanted. You can't honestly say you'd go for that either. So why then should people accept it being turned into some kind of lucky dip here? Especially knowing it milks the customer for far more than the items' own worth.

Apherius

No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamble

Héhé , 79 pages , we are ok, we are in a MMO , not in a Tabacco bar that sell Scratch tickets .

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

Hitting rock bottom is usually suicide in a lot of addictions and mental health issues.

Yes, I thought about this as well - but you see what people post about this who are in favor of those boxes - they even feel insulted, when one just tells the truth about why those boxes are there in the first place. To me they are an immoral offer, and against the law in my home country - taking advantage of weaknesses of people to achieve an significantly increased price for an item - it is exactly that what those boxes are for. It is a law against immoral business offers, so most of my fellow citizens in Germany will feel exactly the same. It might not be in other countries - China is an example, there you can legally abuse the weakness of people, there is no protective law against that.

Well, it is difficult - one day there might be a consent between nations, what is immoral business practice and what is not, but currently it is a real mess. That an Elder Scrolls title has to do that is troublesome at least - and this shows as well in Fallout Shelter and might not stop there - it might not even come from ZOS, but from their peers, Zenimax themselves.

considering the part i put in bold can you

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

So every quarter or so there is a chance that these Crown Crates would turn into Pay to win?

The game can go pay to win everyday, as soon as the devs decide to do so. They haven't gone pay to win yet, in 2 years, there's no particular reason to believe they will do it now or any time soon, crown crates or not.

wow.... a sensible, rational comment.

Just, one that suggests the author hasn't played the game yet.

I know, we all look at stuff like the Imperials and the Julianos set as fair and balanced... until you start seeing those things getting lauded as the best option for certain builds. And then remember that, yeah, ZOS is actually getting paid.

It's not P2W in the extreme, like you get from F2P grindfests, that will just flat out sell you a weapon that does 10% more damage than anything you can otherwise obtain... but, stacking up Spell Damage is still way more obnoxious than stacking up weapon damage, and suddenly Julianos isn't exactly the same as Hundings but on the other bar, it's actually more valuable, given available resources. Anyone else remember the utter tantrums we got about Kena being available to non-subscribers via The Golden? But, wait, it's not P2W, it was just the single best DPS monster set in the game, at the time.

To say nothing of this little gem. It is easier to obtain V16 gear, even now, as a subscriber, than as a free player. Maybe that will change with U12, I don't know, and neither do you. But right now, if you want to make V16 gear as a free player, you need to go to Cyrodiil, or run vet dungeons. As a subscriber, you just need to wander around and listen for thieves caches, or you can start switching to actually useful sets by running content in Wrothgar, Hew's Bane, or on The Gold Coast.

Sure, as a free player you can theoretically catch up, but the opportunity cost is far higher.

That's time that a subscriber can put towards advancing their CR, towards gathering more mats, towards grinding in the new zones.

Maybe U12 will rectify some of this.

But, saying there's no direct statistical advantages for spending money on ESO is flat out wrong.

you forgot to add that you have to buy the box in the first place so that makes it p2w right?

can i what? - do you want to know the law - §138 section 2 BGB.

Nichtig ist insbesondere ein Rechtsgeschäft, durch das jemand unter Ausbeutung der Zwangslage, der Unerfahrenheit, des Mangels an Urteilsvermögen oder der erheblichen Willensschwäche eines anderen sich oder einem Dritten für eine Leistung Vermögensvorteile versprechen oder gewähren lässt, die in einem auffälligen Missverhältnis zu der Leistung stehen.

"der erheblichen Willensschwäche" is referring to what impulse control disorder is like or any addiction basically. "auffälligen Missverhältnis zur der Leistung stehen" means, there is a significant discrepancy between the value offered and what the customer will have paid for it. Furthermore "Mangel an Urteilsvermögen'" can refer to when someone is incapable of grasping what the business deal offers exactly. "Unerfahrenheit" is being inexperienced in the matter. So more than just one of these things are actually given.

sorry?

what does this have to do with the conversation you commented on.....the discussion there was about p2w

No you high-lighted 2 things - in my post as well - the one where I was referring to that law and that most germans will therefore feel like I do about the matter - your comment to this was incomplete - ended in "can you" - and I did not know what you wanted from me, so I assumed you wanted the text of the law.

oh that..... no. it was the idea that german companies are beyond reproach, was going to comment but decided against it. i thought i had deleted that.

BEHOLD THE DRAFT SYSTEM! ARBITER OF THE ORIGINAL NECROPOSTS! BEWARE THE NECROPOSTS! THEY DEVOUR ALL IN THEIR PATH AND RISE UNBIDDEN FROM THE GRAVE OF BACKSPACE!

Recremen

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Actually this game doesn't meet my requirements for speaking out on things like encouraging long grinding sessions or other compulsion-enabling design choices. In fact, with Veteran Rank Removal, the Collections UI, and other features, they've made a pretty safe gaming environment for people prone to compulsive gaming! I'm glad I'm not the only one considerate of that target population. I mean, unless you aren't actually considerate of them and are just trying to score debate team points. But that would be such an awful thing to be caught doing.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."

no, i was simply asking a question.

When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.

It's *** tragic. I mean that. @jedtb16_ESO, if I was in a position to do something about events like that, I would. I'm not. It's not something I can control or affect, but I can offer my opinion and analysis on the subject. Which is what I've been doing here. Aside from mocking the autodraft system, because that thing is the original troll.

EDIT: @Recremen, is right though. ESO has made a lot of design decisions specifically to reduce the risk of that kind of suicidal grinding. It's a feature of other MMOs, but not this one.

jedtb16_ESO

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."

no, i was simply asking a question.

When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.

the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

Recremen wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Actually this game doesn't meet my requirements for speaking out on things like encouraging long grinding sessions or other compulsion-enabling design choices. In fact, with Veteran Rank Removal, the Collections UI, and other features, they've made a pretty safe gaming environment for people prone to compulsive gaming! I'm glad I'm not the only one considerate of that target population. I mean, unless you aren't actually considerate of them and are just trying to score debate team points. But that would be such an awful thing to be caught doing.

Yes, I would say you are right - ESO is not like any of those grinding fests which are asian MMOs - asians love this kind of thing and they are more prone to develop such a disorder - it is unlikely to happen in the western world.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."

no, i was simply asking a question.

When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.

the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.

They do. They just don't share that data. No one wants to be known as the company that developed games so addictive they literally killed their players.

jedtb16_ESO

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

Hitting rock bottom is usually suicide in a lot of addictions and mental health issues.

Yes, I thought about this as well - but you see what people post about this who are in favor of those boxes - they even feel insulted, when one just tells the truth about why those boxes are there in the first place. To me they are an immoral offer, and against the law in my home country - taking advantage of weaknesses of people to achieve an significantly increased price for an item - it is exactly that what those boxes are for. It is a law against immoral business offers, so most of my fellow citizens in Germany will feel exactly the same. It might not be in other countries - China is an example, there you can legally abuse the weakness of people, there is no protective law against that.

Well, it is difficult - one day there might be a consent between nations, what is immoral business practice and what is not, but currently it is a real mess. That an Elder Scrolls title has to do that is troublesome at least - and this shows as well in Fallout Shelter and might not stop there - it might not even come from ZOS, but from their peers, Zenimax themselves.

considering the part i put in bold can you

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

So every quarter or so there is a chance that these Crown Crates would turn into Pay to win?

The game can go pay to win everyday, as soon as the devs decide to do so. They haven't gone pay to win yet, in 2 years, there's no particular reason to believe they will do it now or any time soon, crown crates or not.

wow.... a sensible, rational comment.

Just, one that suggests the author hasn't played the game yet.

I know, we all look at stuff like the Imperials and the Julianos set as fair and balanced... until you start seeing those things getting lauded as the best option for certain builds. And then remember that, yeah, ZOS is actually getting paid.

It's not P2W in the extreme, like you get from F2P grindfests, that will just flat out sell you a weapon that does 10% more damage than anything you can otherwise obtain... but, stacking up Spell Damage is still way more obnoxious than stacking up weapon damage, and suddenly Julianos isn't exactly the same as Hundings but on the other bar, it's actually more valuable, given available resources. Anyone else remember the utter tantrums we got about Kena being available to non-subscribers via The Golden? But, wait, it's not P2W, it was just the single best DPS monster set in the game, at the time.

To say nothing of this little gem. It is easier to obtain V16 gear, even now, as a subscriber, than as a free player. Maybe that will change with U12, I don't know, and neither do you. But right now, if you want to make V16 gear as a free player, you need to go to Cyrodiil, or run vet dungeons. As a subscriber, you just need to wander around and listen for thieves caches, or you can start switching to actually useful sets by running content in Wrothgar, Hew's Bane, or on The Gold Coast.

Sure, as a free player you can theoretically catch up, but the opportunity cost is far higher.

That's time that a subscriber can put towards advancing their CR, towards gathering more mats, towards grinding in the new zones.

Maybe U12 will rectify some of this.

But, saying there's no direct statistical advantages for spending money on ESO is flat out wrong.

you forgot to add that you have to buy the box in the first place so that makes it p2w right?

can i what? - do you want to know the law - §138 section 2 BGB.

Nichtig ist insbesondere ein Rechtsgeschäft, durch das jemand unter Ausbeutung der Zwangslage, der Unerfahrenheit, des Mangels an Urteilsvermögen oder der erheblichen Willensschwäche eines anderen sich oder einem Dritten für eine Leistung Vermögensvorteile versprechen oder gewähren lässt, die in einem auffälligen Missverhältnis zu der Leistung stehen.

"der erheblichen Willensschwäche" is referring to what impulse control disorder is like or any addiction basically. "auffälligen Missverhältnis zur der Leistung stehen" means, there is a significant discrepancy between the value offered and what the customer will have paid for it. Furthermore "Mangel an Urteilsvermögen'" can refer to when someone is incapable of grasping what the business deal offers exactly. "Unerfahrenheit" is being inexperienced in the matter. So more than just one of these things are actually given.

sorry?

what does this have to do with the conversation you commented on.....the discussion there was about p2w

No you high-lighted 2 things - in my post as well - the one where I was referring to that law and that most germans will therefore feel like I do about the matter - your comment to this was incomplete - ended in "can you" - and I did not know what you wanted from me, so I assumed you wanted the text of the law.

oh that..... no. it was the idea that german companies are beyond reproach, was going to comment but decided against it. i thought i had deleted that.

BEHOLD THE DRAFT SYSTEM! ARBITER OF THE ORIGINAL NECROPOSTS! BEWARE THE NECROPOSTS! THEY DEVOUR ALL IN THEIR PATH AND RISE UNBIDDEN FROM THE GRAVE OF BACKSPACE!

que?

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

Hitting rock bottom is usually suicide in a lot of addictions and mental health issues.

Yes, I thought about this as well - but you see what people post about this who are in favor of those boxes - they even feel insulted, when one just tells the truth about why those boxes are there in the first place. To me they are an immoral offer, and against the law in my home country - taking advantage of weaknesses of people to achieve an significantly increased price for an item - it is exactly that what those boxes are for. It is a law against immoral business offers, so most of my fellow citizens in Germany will feel exactly the same. It might not be in other countries - China is an example, there you can legally abuse the weakness of people, there is no protective law against that.

Well, it is difficult - one day there might be a consent between nations, what is immoral business practice and what is not, but currently it is a real mess. That an Elder Scrolls title has to do that is troublesome at least - and this shows as well in Fallout Shelter and might not stop there - it might not even come from ZOS, but from their peers, Zenimax themselves.

considering the part i put in bold can you

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

So every quarter or so there is a chance that these Crown Crates would turn into Pay to win?

The game can go pay to win everyday, as soon as the devs decide to do so. They haven't gone pay to win yet, in 2 years, there's no particular reason to believe they will do it now or any time soon, crown crates or not.

wow.... a sensible, rational comment.

Just, one that suggests the author hasn't played the game yet.

I know, we all look at stuff like the Imperials and the Julianos set as fair and balanced... until you start seeing those things getting lauded as the best option for certain builds. And then remember that, yeah, ZOS is actually getting paid.

It's not P2W in the extreme, like you get from F2P grindfests, that will just flat out sell you a weapon that does 10% more damage than anything you can otherwise obtain... but, stacking up Spell Damage is still way more obnoxious than stacking up weapon damage, and suddenly Julianos isn't exactly the same as Hundings but on the other bar, it's actually more valuable, given available resources. Anyone else remember the utter tantrums we got about Kena being available to non-subscribers via The Golden? But, wait, it's not P2W, it was just the single best DPS monster set in the game, at the time.

To say nothing of this little gem. It is easier to obtain V16 gear, even now, as a subscriber, than as a free player. Maybe that will change with U12, I don't know, and neither do you. But right now, if you want to make V16 gear as a free player, you need to go to Cyrodiil, or run vet dungeons. As a subscriber, you just need to wander around and listen for thieves caches, or you can start switching to actually useful sets by running content in Wrothgar, Hew's Bane, or on The Gold Coast.

Sure, as a free player you can theoretically catch up, but the opportunity cost is far higher.

That's time that a subscriber can put towards advancing their CR, towards gathering more mats, towards grinding in the new zones.

Maybe U12 will rectify some of this.

But, saying there's no direct statistical advantages for spending money on ESO is flat out wrong.

you forgot to add that you have to buy the box in the first place so that makes it p2w right?

can i what? - do you want to know the law - §138 section 2 BGB.

Nichtig ist insbesondere ein Rechtsgeschäft, durch das jemand unter Ausbeutung der Zwangslage, der Unerfahrenheit, des Mangels an Urteilsvermögen oder der erheblichen Willensschwäche eines anderen sich oder einem Dritten für eine Leistung Vermögensvorteile versprechen oder gewähren lässt, die in einem auffälligen Missverhältnis zu der Leistung stehen.

"der erheblichen Willensschwäche" is referring to what impulse control disorder is like or any addiction basically. "auffälligen Missverhältnis zur der Leistung stehen" means, there is a significant discrepancy between the value offered and what the customer will have paid for it. Furthermore "Mangel an Urteilsvermögen'" can refer to when someone is incapable of grasping what the business deal offers exactly. "Unerfahrenheit" is being inexperienced in the matter. So more than just one of these things are actually given.

sorry?

what does this have to do with the conversation you commented on.....the discussion there was about p2w

No you high-lighted 2 things - in my post as well - the one where I was referring to that law and that most germans will therefore feel like I do about the matter - your comment to this was incomplete - ended in "can you" - and I did not know what you wanted from me, so I assumed you wanted the text of the law.

oh that..... no. it was the idea that german companies are beyond reproach, was going to comment but decided against it. i thought i had deleted that.

BEHOLD THE DRAFT SYSTEM! ARBITER OF THE ORIGINAL NECROPOSTS! BEWARE THE NECROPOSTS! THEY DEVOUR ALL IN THEIR PATH AND RISE UNBIDDEN FROM THE GRAVE OF BACKSPACE!

que?

Et was?

When the draft autosave function necros a post you thought better of actually releasing into the wild, because you quoted someone else, and didn't realize the original post was in the window.

jedtb16_ESO

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Recremen wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Actually this game doesn't meet my requirements for speaking out on things like encouraging long grinding sessions or other compulsion-enabling design choices. In fact, with Veteran Rank Removal, the Collections UI, and other features, they've made a pretty safe gaming environment for people prone to compulsive gaming! I'm glad I'm not the only one considerate of that target population. I mean, unless you aren't actually considerate of them and are just trying to score debate team points. But that would be such an awful thing to be caught doing.

there is not one thing to stop me logging in now and playing till i drop. other, that is, than my own sense of self preservation.

score debating points? that is pathetic.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."

no, i was simply asking a question.

When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.

the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.

Well, actually I have looked into the matter a while ago - I guess it was last year but maybe the year before it - and the problem is actually to classify what kind of disorder this actually is. At that time where I investigated it, excessive gaming was not considered a psychiatric disorder, but it was suggested to become one in the future - the implication of this would be, that people who behave strangely in this way and cannot care for their real life in a normal way anymore, could be put under custody - even if they are adults - in Germany for their own good. But without it to be a disorder, people are free to do as they please, even if they are ruining their lives doing so.

starkerealm

No, don't ever add these into the game.

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Actually this game doesn't meet my requirements for speaking out on things like encouraging long grinding sessions or other compulsion-enabling design choices. In fact, with Veteran Rank Removal, the Collections UI, and other features, they've made a pretty safe gaming environment for people prone to compulsive gaming! I'm glad I'm not the only one considerate of that target population. I mean, unless you aren't actually considerate of them and are just trying to score debate team points. But that would be such an awful thing to be caught doing.

there is not one thing to stop me logging in now and playing till i drop. other, that is, than my own sense of self preservation.

score debating points? that is pathetic.

People do that, you know.

Also, ESO is designed in such a way to encourage to to play in bursts, and not for 16 hours at a stretch. As opposed to something like BDO which is designed with the intention that you never log off, even while asleep.

nimander99

No, don't ever add these into the game.

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."

no, i was simply asking a question.

When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.

the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.

They do. They just don't share that data. No one wants to be known as the company that developed games so addictive they literally killed their players.

Yup, game companies will never share this data. Just like casinos never share the amount of payout vs pay-in. I have seen first hand what gambling addiction does to a person and family, I have also seen what drug addiction does... And you want to know what the difference is? Nothing.

jedtb16_ESO

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."

no, i was simply asking a question.

When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.

the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.

Well, actually I have looked into the matter a while ago - I guess it was last year but maybe the year before it - and the problem is actually to classify what kind of disorder this actually is. At that time where I investigated it, excessive gaming was not considered a psychiatric disorder, but it was suggested to become one in the future - the implication of this would be, that people who behave strangely in this way and cannot care for their real life in a normal way anymore, could be put under custody - even if they are adults - in Germany for their own good. But without it to be a disorder, people are free to do as they please, even if they are ruining their lives doing so.

it qualifies as addiction since it is self reinforcing behaviour with deleterious effects to the individual.

jedtb16_ESO

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Cazzy wrote: »

Hitting rock bottom is usually suicide in a lot of addictions and mental health issues.

Yes, I thought about this as well - but you see what people post about this who are in favor of those boxes - they even feel insulted, when one just tells the truth about why those boxes are there in the first place. To me they are an immoral offer, and against the law in my home country - taking advantage of weaknesses of people to achieve an significantly increased price for an item - it is exactly that what those boxes are for. It is a law against immoral business offers, so most of my fellow citizens in Germany will feel exactly the same. It might not be in other countries - China is an example, there you can legally abuse the weakness of people, there is no protective law against that.

Well, it is difficult - one day there might be a consent between nations, what is immoral business practice and what is not, but currently it is a real mess. That an Elder Scrolls title has to do that is troublesome at least - and this shows as well in Fallout Shelter and might not stop there - it might not even come from ZOS, but from their peers, Zenimax themselves.

considering the part i put in bold can you

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Wow wrote: »

So every quarter or so there is a chance that these Crown Crates would turn into Pay to win?

The game can go pay to win everyday, as soon as the devs decide to do so. They haven't gone pay to win yet, in 2 years, there's no particular reason to believe they will do it now or any time soon, crown crates or not.

wow.... a sensible, rational comment.

Just, one that suggests the author hasn't played the game yet.

I know, we all look at stuff like the Imperials and the Julianos set as fair and balanced... until you start seeing those things getting lauded as the best option for certain builds. And then remember that, yeah, ZOS is actually getting paid.

It's not P2W in the extreme, like you get from F2P grindfests, that will just flat out sell you a weapon that does 10% more damage than anything you can otherwise obtain... but, stacking up Spell Damage is still way more obnoxious than stacking up weapon damage, and suddenly Julianos isn't exactly the same as Hundings but on the other bar, it's actually more valuable, given available resources. Anyone else remember the utter tantrums we got about Kena being available to non-subscribers via The Golden? But, wait, it's not P2W, it was just the single best DPS monster set in the game, at the time.

To say nothing of this little gem. It is easier to obtain V16 gear, even now, as a subscriber, than as a free player. Maybe that will change with U12, I don't know, and neither do you. But right now, if you want to make V16 gear as a free player, you need to go to Cyrodiil, or run vet dungeons. As a subscriber, you just need to wander around and listen for thieves caches, or you can start switching to actually useful sets by running content in Wrothgar, Hew's Bane, or on The Gold Coast.

Sure, as a free player you can theoretically catch up, but the opportunity cost is far higher.

That's time that a subscriber can put towards advancing their CR, towards gathering more mats, towards grinding in the new zones.

Maybe U12 will rectify some of this.

But, saying there's no direct statistical advantages for spending money on ESO is flat out wrong.

you forgot to add that you have to buy the box in the first place so that makes it p2w right?

can i what? - do you want to know the law - §138 section 2 BGB.

Nichtig ist insbesondere ein Rechtsgeschäft, durch das jemand unter Ausbeutung der Zwangslage, der Unerfahrenheit, des Mangels an Urteilsvermögen oder der erheblichen Willensschwäche eines anderen sich oder einem Dritten für eine Leistung Vermögensvorteile versprechen oder gewähren lässt, die in einem auffälligen Missverhältnis zu der Leistung stehen.

"der erheblichen Willensschwäche" is referring to what impulse control disorder is like or any addiction basically. "auffälligen Missverhältnis zur der Leistung stehen" means, there is a significant discrepancy between the value offered and what the customer will have paid for it. Furthermore "Mangel an Urteilsvermögen'" can refer to when someone is incapable of grasping what the business deal offers exactly. "Unerfahrenheit" is being inexperienced in the matter. So more than just one of these things are actually given.

sorry?

what does this have to do with the conversation you commented on.....the discussion there was about p2w

No you high-lighted 2 things - in my post as well - the one where I was referring to that law and that most germans will therefore feel like I do about the matter - your comment to this was incomplete - ended in "can you" - and I did not know what you wanted from me, so I assumed you wanted the text of the law.

oh that..... no. it was the idea that german companies are beyond reproach, was going to comment but decided against it. i thought i had deleted that.

BEHOLD THE DRAFT SYSTEM! ARBITER OF THE ORIGINAL NECROPOSTS! BEWARE THE NECROPOSTS! THEY DEVOUR ALL IN THEIR PATH AND RISE UNBIDDEN FROM THE GRAVE OF BACKSPACE!

que?

Et was?

When the draft autosave function necros a post you thought better of actually releasing into the wild, because you quoted someone else, and didn't realize the original post was in the window.

yeah... lol. back spacing doesn't work to get rid of it. weird, that post was going to be made hours ago and this pc has been off since then.

haunted by a supposedly deleted post.... who'da thought it.

Lysette

No, don't ever add these into the game.

nimander99 wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."

no, i was simply asking a question.

When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.

the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.

They do. They just don't share that data. No one wants to be known as the company that developed games so addictive they literally killed their players.

Yup, game companies will never share this data. Just like casinos never share the amount of payout vs pay-in. I have seen first hand what gambling addiction does to a person and family, I have also seen what drug addiction does... And you want to know what the difference is? Nothing.

Just to explain why you are correct - excessive gambling is as well a drug addiction - to the body-owned Dopamine, which is governing the reward systems in the brain among other things.

jedtb16_ESO

Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmetics

starkerealm wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.

I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.

are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?

people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?

Actually this game doesn't meet my requirements for speaking out on things like encouraging long grinding sessions or other compulsion-enabling design choices. In fact, with Veteran Rank Removal, the Collections UI, and other features, they've made a pretty safe gaming environment for people prone to compulsive gaming! I'm glad I'm not the only one considerate of that target population. I mean, unless you aren't actually considerate of them and are just trying to score debate team points. But that would be such an awful thing to be caught doing.

there is not one thing to stop me logging in now and playing till i drop. other, that is, than my own sense of self preservation.

score debating points? that is pathetic.

People do that, you know.

Also, ESO is designed in such a way to encourage to to play in bursts, and not for 16 hours at a stretch. As opposed to something like BDO which is designed with the intention that you never log off, even while asleep.

yes there is that element in the design.... but there is no mechanism to stop someone just going for it.

JimT722

No, don't ever add these into the game.

MarkusLiberty wrote: »

maybe it is just their right to get screwed over by a company - maybe we should just let them do it.

Yes please. I really dont need yours or anyone else's "protection" in regards to my spendings. And I doubt most people here do. If it means that much to you perhaps you should join an anti-gambling organizations?

Sorry if I'm sounding hostile, but this is getting just a bit ridiculous.

What's ridiculous is who comes to an mmo saying where are the 4$ slot machines, I'm feeling lucky. Pulls handle and gets crown gem, crown gem, and tri pots. After ten pulls of that handle, most people probably won't have anything useful to them.

However, people will keep pulling that handle, and we will get monthly rng content updates. We will get yearly game updates if lucky. If no one bought into this, where would the rng content end up. On the store where it should be. I can't believe what's happened to the mmo market.