nimander99 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."
no, i was simply asking a question.
When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.
the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.
They do. They just don't share that data. No one wants to be known as the company that developed games so addictive they literally killed their players.
Yup, game companies will never share this data. Just like casinos never share the amount of payout vs pay-in. I have seen first hand what gambling addiction does to a person and family, I have also seen what drug addiction does... And you want to know what the difference is? Nothing.
Just to explain why you are correct - excessive gambling is as well a drug addiction - to the body-owned Dopamine, which is governing the reward systems in the brain among other things.
jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."
no, i was simply asking a question.
When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.
the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.
Well, actually I have looked into the matter a while ago - I guess it was last year but maybe the year before it - and the problem is actually to classify what kind of disorder this actually is. At that time where I investigated it, excessive gaming was not considered a psychiatric disorder, but it was suggested to become one in the future - the implication of this would be, that people who behave strangely in this way and cannot care for their real life in a normal way anymore, could be put under custody - even if they are adults - in Germany for their own good. But without it to be a disorder, people are free to do as they please, even if they are ruining their lives doing so.
it qualifies as addiction since it is self reinforcing behaviour with deleterious effects to the individual.
nimander99 wrote: »nimander99 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."
no, i was simply asking a question.
When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.
the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.
They do. They just don't share that data. No one wants to be known as the company that developed games so addictive they literally killed their players.
Yup, game companies will never share this data. Just like casinos never share the amount of payout vs pay-in. I have seen first hand what gambling addiction does to a person and family, I have also seen what drug addiction does... And you want to know what the difference is? Nothing.
Just to explain why you are correct - excessive gambling is as well a drug addiction - to the body-owned Dopamine, which is governing the reward systems in the brain among other things.
Yeah, there are some pretty amazing brain scans that show the pleasure center lighting up like a Christmas tree every time you take that hit or pull that lever.
jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »Hitting rock bottom is usually suicide in a lot of addictions and mental health issues.
Yes, I thought about this as well - but you see what people post about this who are in favor of those boxes - they even feel insulted, when one just tells the truth about why those boxes are there in the first place. To me they are an immoral offer, and against the law in my home country - taking advantage of weaknesses of people to achieve an significantly increased price for an item - it is exactly that what those boxes are for. It is a law against immoral business offers, so most of my fellow citizens in Germany will feel exactly the same. It might not be in other countries - China is an example, there you can legally abuse the weakness of people, there is no protective law against that.
Well, it is difficult - one day there might be a consent between nations, what is immoral business practice and what is not, but currently it is a real mess. That an Elder Scrolls title has to do that is troublesome at least - and this shows as well in Fallout Shelter and might not stop there - it might not even come from ZOS, but from their peers, Zenimax themselves.
considering the part i put in bold can youstarkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »So every quarter or so there is a chance that these Crown Crates would turn into Pay to win?
The game can go pay to win everyday, as soon as the devs decide to do so. They haven't gone pay to win yet, in 2 years, there's no particular reason to believe they will do it now or any time soon, crown crates or not.
wow.... a sensible, rational comment.
Just, one that suggests the author hasn't played the game yet.
I know, we all look at stuff like the Imperials and the Julianos set as fair and balanced... until you start seeing those things getting lauded as the best option for certain builds. And then remember that, yeah, ZOS is actually getting paid.
It's not P2W in the extreme, like you get from F2P grindfests, that will just flat out sell you a weapon that does 10% more damage than anything you can otherwise obtain... but, stacking up Spell Damage is still way more obnoxious than stacking up weapon damage, and suddenly Julianos isn't exactly the same as Hundings but on the other bar, it's actually more valuable, given available resources. Anyone else remember the utter tantrums we got about Kena being available to non-subscribers via The Golden? But, wait, it's not P2W, it was just the single best DPS monster set in the game, at the time.
To say nothing of this little gem. It is easier to obtain V16 gear, even now, as a subscriber, than as a free player. Maybe that will change with U12, I don't know, and neither do you. But right now, if you want to make V16 gear as a free player, you need to go to Cyrodiil, or run vet dungeons. As a subscriber, you just need to wander around and listen for thieves caches, or you can start switching to actually useful sets by running content in Wrothgar, Hew's Bane, or on The Gold Coast.
Sure, as a free player you can theoretically catch up, but the opportunity cost is far higher.
That's time that a subscriber can put towards advancing their CR, towards gathering more mats, towards grinding in the new zones.
Maybe U12 will rectify some of this.
But, saying there's no direct statistical advantages for spending money on ESO is flat out wrong.
you forgot to add that you have to buy the box in the first place so that makes it p2w right?
can i what? - do you want to know the law - §138 section 2 BGB.
Nichtig ist insbesondere ein Rechtsgeschäft, durch das jemand unter Ausbeutung der Zwangslage, der Unerfahrenheit, des Mangels an Urteilsvermögen oder der erheblichen Willensschwäche eines anderen sich oder einem Dritten für eine Leistung Vermögensvorteile versprechen oder gewähren lässt, die in einem auffälligen Missverhältnis zu der Leistung stehen.
"der erheblichen Willensschwäche" is referring to what impulse control disorder is like or any addiction basically. "auffälligen Missverhältnis zur der Leistung stehen" means, there is a significant discrepancy between the value offered and what the customer will have paid for it. Furthermore "Mangel an Urteilsvermögen'" can refer to when someone is incapable of grasping what the business deal offers exactly. "Unerfahrenheit" is being inexperienced in the matter. So more than just one of these things are actually given.
sorry?
what does this have to do with the conversation you commented on.....the discussion there was about p2w
No you high-lighted 2 things - in my post as well - the one where I was referring to that law and that most germans will therefore feel like I do about the matter - your comment to this was incomplete - ended in "can you" - and I did not know what you wanted from me, so I assumed you wanted the text of the law.
oh that..... no. it was the idea that german companies are beyond reproach, was going to comment but decided against it. i thought i had deleted that.
BEHOLD THE DRAFT SYSTEM! ARBITER OF THE ORIGINAL NECROPOSTS! BEWARE THE NECROPOSTS! THEY DEVOUR ALL IN THEIR PATH AND RISE UNBIDDEN FROM THE GRAVE OF BACKSPACE!
que?
Et was?
When the draft autosave function necros a post you thought better of actually releasing into the wild, because you quoted someone else, and didn't realize the original post was in the window.
yeah... lol. back spacing doesn't work to get rid of it. weird, that post was going to be made hours ago and this pc has been off since then.
haunted by a supposedly deleted post.... who'da thought it.
jedtb16_ESO wrote: »Well, actually I have looked into the matter a while ago - I guess it was last year but maybe the year before it - and the problem is actually to classify what kind of disorder this actually is. At that time where I investigated it, excessive gaming was not considered a psychiatric disorder, but it was suggested to become one in the future - the implication of this would be, that people who behave strangely in this way and cannot care for their real life in a normal way anymore, could be put under custody - even if they are adults - in Germany for their own good. But without it to be a disorder, people are free to do as they please, even if they are ruining their lives doing so.
it qualifies as addiction since it is self reinforcing behaviour with deleterious effects to the individual.
nimander99 wrote: »nimander99 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."
no, i was simply asking a question.
When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.
the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.
They do. They just don't share that data. No one wants to be known as the company that developed games so addictive they literally killed their players.
Yup, game companies will never share this data. Just like casinos never share the amount of payout vs pay-in. I have seen first hand what gambling addiction does to a person and family, I have also seen what drug addiction does... And you want to know what the difference is? Nothing.
Just to explain why you are correct - excessive gambling is as well a drug addiction - to the body-owned Dopamine, which is governing the reward systems in the brain among other things.
Yeah, there are some pretty amazing brain scans that show the pleasure center lighting up like a Christmas tree every time you take that hit or pull that lever.
The real problem with this kind of addiction is, that loosing is not making an addicted player avoiding it - if he looses or wins is the same response in his brain - unlike for a normal person, where a loss leads to a negative response, not so in a gambling addict.
It is a bit like with people who actually enjoy pain - a normal person has a negative response and will avoid pain, but someone addicted to pain has a positive response to it.
jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Actually this game doesn't meet my requirements for speaking out on things like encouraging long grinding sessions or other compulsion-enabling design choices. In fact, with Veteran Rank Removal, the Collections UI, and other features, they've made a pretty safe gaming environment for people prone to compulsive gaming! I'm glad I'm not the only one considerate of that target population. I mean, unless you aren't actually considerate of them and are just trying to score debate team points. But that would be such an awful thing to be caught doing.
there is not one thing to stop me logging in now and playing till i drop. other, that is, than my own sense of self preservation.
score debating points? that is pathetic.
What's ridiculous is who comes to an mmo saying where are the 4$ slot machines, I'm feeling lucky. Pulls handle and gets crown gem, crown gem, and tri pots. After ten pulls of that handle, most people probably won't have anything useful to them.MarkusLiberty wrote: »maybe it is just their right to get screwed over by a company - maybe we should just let them do it.
Yes please. I really dont need yours or anyone else's "protection" in regards to my spendings. And I doubt most people here do. If it means that much to you perhaps you should join an anti-gambling organizations?
Sorry if I'm sounding hostile, but this is getting just a bit ridiculous.
However, people will keep pulling that handle, and we will get monthly rng content updates. We will get yearly game updates if lucky. If no one bought into this, where would the rng content end up. On the store where it should be. I can't believe what's happened to the mmo market.
jedtb16_ESO wrote: »Well, actually I have looked into the matter a while ago - I guess it was last year but maybe the year before it - and the problem is actually to classify what kind of disorder this actually is. At that time where I investigated it, excessive gaming was not considered a psychiatric disorder, but it was suggested to become one in the future - the implication of this would be, that people who behave strangely in this way and cannot care for their real life in a normal way anymore, could be put under custody - even if they are adults - in Germany for their own good. But without it to be a disorder, people are free to do as they please, even if they are ruining their lives doing so.
it qualifies as addiction since it is self reinforcing behaviour with deleterious effects to the individual.
It's not yet recognized in the ICD-11 and DSM-5 suggests it for inclusion in the future but states that more research is needed (at least that was the state of affairs in 2014).
Blackbird71 wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »catsgomeow wrote: »The thing about rng boxes some people might not know about is the history of them throughout the mmorpg scene, they have followed the same path in almost every mmo that has introduced them without fail and i dont see why eso would be any different, they only start out cosmetic only, then its exclusive items then it gets into the realm of pay to win then outright pay to win.
I heard EXACTLY the same 18 months ago on the B2P (Tamriel Unlimited) annoucement : ESO was 100% doomed to become P2W before you know it. Yet 18 months later there's still not an ounce of P2W in ESO.
So sorry, but I don't buy it at all. Crown Crates are NOT compelled to make ESO P2W.
Do you really not see the irony in that statement? You are claiming that those who said the game would become P2W were wrong, yet here we are witnessing the next step on the path to P2W being laid out right before our eyes. No one said it would happen instantly, but rather the opposite, that it is a slow and steady progression which the game is continuously moving towards.
So your argument is "We weren't over reacting before because the game is going to become P2W any day now after this just you wait!"
*grin*
Do some people not realize how easy it would be to drain away money like this. 10 rolls is equivalent to $40.What's ridiculous is who comes to an mmo saying where are the 4$ slot machines, I'm feeling lucky. Pulls handle and gets crown gem, crown gem, and tri pots. After ten pulls of that handle, most people probably won't have anything useful to them.MarkusLiberty wrote: »maybe it is just their right to get screwed over by a company - maybe we should just let them do it.
Yes please. I really dont need yours or anyone else's "protection" in regards to my spendings. And I doubt most people here do. If it means that much to you perhaps you should join an anti-gambling organizations?
Sorry if I'm sounding hostile, but this is getting just a bit ridiculous.
However, people will keep pulling that handle, and we will get monthly rng content updates. We will get yearly game updates if lucky. If no one bought into this, where would the rng content end up. On the store where it should be. I can't believe what's happened to the mmo market.
Do some people not realize how easy it would be to drain away money like this. 10 rolls is equivalent to $40.What's ridiculous is who comes to an mmo saying where are the 4$ slot machines, I'm feeling lucky. Pulls handle and gets crown gem, crown gem, and tri pots. After ten pulls of that handle, most people probably won't have anything useful to them.MarkusLiberty wrote: »maybe it is just their right to get screwed over by a company - maybe we should just let them do it.
Yes please. I really dont need yours or anyone else's "protection" in regards to my spendings. And I doubt most people here do. If it means that much to you perhaps you should join an anti-gambling organizations?
Sorry if I'm sounding hostile, but this is getting just a bit ridiculous.
However, people will keep pulling that handle, and we will get monthly rng content updates. We will get yearly game updates if lucky. If no one bought into this, where would the rng content end up. On the store where it should be. I can't believe what's happened to the mmo market.
Blackbird71 wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »catsgomeow wrote: »The thing about rng boxes some people might not know about is the history of them throughout the mmorpg scene, they have followed the same path in almost every mmo that has introduced them without fail and i dont see why eso would be any different, they only start out cosmetic only, then its exclusive items then it gets into the realm of pay to win then outright pay to win.
I heard EXACTLY the same 18 months ago on the B2P (Tamriel Unlimited) annoucement : ESO was 100% doomed to become P2W before you know it. Yet 18 months later there's still not an ounce of P2W in ESO.
So sorry, but I don't buy it at all. Crown Crates are NOT compelled to make ESO P2W.
Do you really not see the irony in that statement? You are claiming that those who said the game would become P2W were wrong, yet here we are witnessing the next step on the path to P2W being laid out right before our eyes. No one said it would happen instantly, but rather the opposite, that it is a slow and steady progression which the game is continuously moving towards.
So your argument is "We weren't over reacting before because the game is going to become P2W any day now after this just you wait!"
*grin*
Well, I wasn't present for the previous "over reacting" as you put it, but I've seen this exact same path in other games. First, the game is subscription based, then it becomes free to play (whether fully or partial) and introduces "micro" transactions (really, the prices in the Crown Store show that ZOS does not understand the term "micro"), and then it introduces random loot boxes for "cosmetic items only", and then it begins introducing exclusive items and content (non-cosmetic) into the loot boxes, and then the best stuff in the game is all locked away in the boxes, and the developers stop producing any real or quality content for the game in favor of focusing on the loot boxes instead.
I'm assuming your argument is "it hasn't happened yet, so it's never going to happen, there's no reason to expect ZOS will continue the path just like other games, I'll just keep my fingers in my ears, la la la!"
(Be careful when you make ridiculous summations and over-simplifications of your opponents' arguments, they can go both ways and really don't achieve anything for either side.)
Do some people not realize how easy it would be to drain away money like this. 10 rolls is equivalent to $40.What's ridiculous is who comes to an mmo saying where are the 4$ slot machines, I'm feeling lucky. Pulls handle and gets crown gem, crown gem, and tri pots. After ten pulls of that handle, most people probably won't have anything useful to them.MarkusLiberty wrote: »maybe it is just their right to get screwed over by a company - maybe we should just let them do it.
Yes please. I really dont need yours or anyone else's "protection" in regards to my spendings. And I doubt most people here do. If it means that much to you perhaps you should join an anti-gambling organizations?
Sorry if I'm sounding hostile, but this is getting just a bit ridiculous.
However, people will keep pulling that handle, and we will get monthly rng content updates. We will get yearly game updates if lucky. If no one bought into this, where would the rng content end up. On the store where it should be. I can't believe what's happened to the mmo market.
Blackbird71 wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »catsgomeow wrote: »The thing about rng boxes some people might not know about is the history of them throughout the mmorpg scene, they have followed the same path in almost every mmo that has introduced them without fail and i dont see why eso would be any different, they only start out cosmetic only, then its exclusive items then it gets into the realm of pay to win then outright pay to win.
I heard EXACTLY the same 18 months ago on the B2P (Tamriel Unlimited) annoucement : ESO was 100% doomed to become P2W before you know it. Yet 18 months later there's still not an ounce of P2W in ESO.
So sorry, but I don't buy it at all. Crown Crates are NOT compelled to make ESO P2W.
Do you really not see the irony in that statement? You are claiming that those who said the game would become P2W were wrong, yet here we are witnessing the next step on the path to P2W being laid out right before our eyes. No one said it would happen instantly, but rather the opposite, that it is a slow and steady progression which the game is continuously moving towards.
And yet we are no nearer P2W now than we were then. You cannot point to a single item in the Crown Store or Crown Crates that is essential to buy or which conveys a gaming advantage to anyone who buys it. We're only now on the next step to P2W for those who thought B2P was the first step, and it turned out to be nothing of the sort. Nothing we've been told yet suggests that Crown Crates will be any more P2W than B2P has turned out to be.
Blackbird71 wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »catsgomeow wrote: »The thing about rng boxes some people might not know about is the history of them throughout the mmorpg scene, they have followed the same path in almost every mmo that has introduced them without fail and i dont see why eso would be any different, they only start out cosmetic only, then its exclusive items then it gets into the realm of pay to win then outright pay to win.
I heard EXACTLY the same 18 months ago on the B2P (Tamriel Unlimited) annoucement : ESO was 100% doomed to become P2W before you know it. Yet 18 months later there's still not an ounce of P2W in ESO.
So sorry, but I don't buy it at all. Crown Crates are NOT compelled to make ESO P2W.
Do you really not see the irony in that statement? You are claiming that those who said the game would become P2W were wrong, yet here we are witnessing the next step on the path to P2W being laid out right before our eyes. No one said it would happen instantly, but rather the opposite, that it is a slow and steady progression which the game is continuously moving towards.
And yet we are no nearer P2W now than we were then. You cannot point to a single item in the Crown Store or Crown Crates that is essential to buy or which conveys a gaming advantage to anyone who buys it. We're only now on the next step to P2W for those who thought B2P was the first step, and it turned out to be nothing of the sort. Nothing we've been told yet suggests that Crown Crates will be any more P2W than B2P has turned out to be.
How can we be on the "next step" now (as you admit we are), if the first step was in fact "nothing of the sort"? The very fact that we are on the next step validates the first step as being such. Your statement is a self-contradiction.
starkerealm wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
Well, let me think back a bit:starkerealm wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.
So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.
The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.
Okay, let me explain why this is a problem.
Luckybags make A LOT of money for an MMO. It comes with increased turnover, but these things will keep companies going. Cryptic was pretty open at one point saying that they had players who were spending over 5k a year on keys.
Why does this matter? I mean, more money for the game, right? Actually... not so much.
So, when you're evaluating, as a developer, what to upgrade or fix in your game, you need to evaluate what your ROI is going to be. In a normal MMO, there's a serious incentive to fix issues with the game. That's where your money is coming from, that's what you need to fix.
But, lucky bags exist in, almost total, isolation from that. You have people who will pay to roll the dice endlessly.
This means, for a developer, if they've got a bugged achievement that won't award a cool skin for finishing a dungeon, or a bug that causes the lucky bags to pay out at a higher than intended rate... they're going to fix the bag drop rate right now, because that affects their bottom line. The other issue stays low on the priorities list.
Similarly, if you're looking at developing new content, the stuff that's going into the bag will be worth A LOT more to you, as a developer, so it will get higher priority than actual new content.
Finally, there's a huge incentive to making the bags more attractive to consumers. Initially it's enough to say, "well, just cosmetic stuff," but inevitably you're going to see stuff going into those bags that's more valuable than what you can get in game, just to keep people coming back. Stuff like: unique sets, or consumables that do things you cannot replicate in game. Consider that the XP scrolls are already considerably better than the ambrosia pots you can get in game naturally, simply because they last longer.
Now, initially you can say those unique sets aren't pay to win because they're not better than the ones in game, but the serious temptation will be to go that route. Even when ZOS has said they won't at this point. They also said they wouldn't be sticking luckybags in the game AT ALL, and have now gone back on that promise.
What you're seeing here is, actually, the death of the game. The luckybags will make more money than the normal content, meaning they'll get priority, they'll become more important to the developers than the game itself, simply because it makes them more money.
They're not holding a gun to anyone's head, but the decision to include these will warp and corrupt the entire development pipeline, just like it has for every other MMO that implemented a similar system.starkerealm wrote: »Well, it actually devalues the game. I mean, makes the game less valuable as a product. MMOs require a community to keep going. All that random blathering in zone that's tempered by longtime players who can actually provide coherent information? What happens when they start to leave? When no one can actually answer the questions getting asked in those zones? And, granted, that's an extreme example, but it's one I've logged into on other games that went to boxes and gutted their community. When the vets leave, the game becomes less accessible for newbies.
I can find some other, non-I need to protect you from yourself posts, if you really want, but there's far more wrong with this than just players with impulse control issues having problems.
Well, one could argue that a costume in itself is an advantage, because it conceals what armor you are really wearing - so lots of P2W actually in this aspect a "cosmetic" item provides an advantage in combat.
Let's see what else is pay to win in the crown store - every DLC - because it has new sky shards in it's territory and new skill points in it's quests. Having access to even more guild traders can be an advantage too - so this could all be considered P2W.
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »Wow. We just hit 80 pages. CAN WE HIT ONE HUNDRED BOYO'S? LETS CONTINUE SPINNIN' THAT WHEEL AND SEE!
jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Blackbird71 wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »catsgomeow wrote: »The thing about rng boxes some people might not know about is the history of them throughout the mmorpg scene, they have followed the same path in almost every mmo that has introduced them without fail and i dont see why eso would be any different, they only start out cosmetic only, then its exclusive items then it gets into the realm of pay to win then outright pay to win.
I heard EXACTLY the same 18 months ago on the B2P (Tamriel Unlimited) annoucement : ESO was 100% doomed to become P2W before you know it. Yet 18 months later there's still not an ounce of P2W in ESO.
So sorry, but I don't buy it at all. Crown Crates are NOT compelled to make ESO P2W.
Do you really not see the irony in that statement? You are claiming that those who said the game would become P2W were wrong, yet here we are witnessing the next step on the path to P2W being laid out right before our eyes. No one said it would happen instantly, but rather the opposite, that it is a slow and steady progression which the game is continuously moving towards.
And yet we are no nearer P2W now than we were then. You cannot point to a single item in the Crown Store or Crown Crates that is essential to buy or which conveys a gaming advantage to anyone who buys it. We're only now on the next step to P2W for those who thought B2P was the first step, and it turned out to be nothing of the sort. Nothing we've been told yet suggests that Crown Crates will be any more P2W than B2P has turned out to be.
How can we be on the "next step" now (as you admit we are), if the first step was in fact "nothing of the sort"? The very fact that we are on the next step validates the first step as being such. Your statement is a self-contradiction.
VerboseQuips wrote: »When people say we should just become adults, I hear this : "Why don't you just get finally resigned to the prospect that greed will corrupt everything you might love, as do all adults who know that the triumph of greed is a law of nature, and therefore, unavoidable? Grow up disenchanted like you should do!"
Probably this is a matter of personnality traits, something like pragmatism vs idealism...
(On a side note, how has childish become pejorative in the first place? Children are fully conscious of their surroundings, they have a wonderful ability to marvel at the world and to learn from it, something that most adults have lost to habits.)
C. S. Lewis wrote:Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.
MarkusLiberty wrote: »Well, one could argue that a costume in itself is an advantage, because it conceals what armor you are really wearing - so lots of P2W actually in this aspect a "cosmetic" item provides an advantage in combat.
Let's see what else is pay to win in the crown store - every DLC - because it has new sky shards in it's territory and new skill points in it's quests. Having access to even more guild traders can be an advantage too - so this could all be considered P2W.
Well, I think that what is considered Pay 2 win is a completely individual thing. For some people "winning" might involve getting the perfect character look, a nice mount and matching costume/armor.
Other people might consider in-game wealth a form of winning, or acquiring a certain type of motifs.
I guess what most people consider winning is being able to complete difficult dungeons/trails and defeating other players in PVP.
I dont think it's possible for Zenimax to entierly avoid every sort of Pay2Win with their Crown Store, but I think the nice thing about their approach is that none of the items you can buy in the store really gives you an advantage that cannot easily be acquired through some in-game means anyway. I doubt they would ever move away from that philosophy.
Blackbird71 wrote: »VerboseQuips wrote: »When people say we should just become adults, I hear this : "Why don't you just get finally resigned to the prospect that greed will corrupt everything you might love, as do all adults who know that the triumph of greed is a law of nature, and therefore, unavoidable? Grow up disenchanted like you should do!"
Probably this is a matter of personnality traits, something like pragmatism vs idealism...
(On a side note, how has childish become pejorative in the first place? Children are fully conscious of their surroundings, they have a wonderful ability to marvel at the world and to learn from it, something that most adults have lost to habits.)
The ever-insightful C. S. Lewis had something to say on that matter, and I think it is applicable here:C. S. Lewis wrote:Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.
By this assessment, "childish" is only used as a pejorative by those who are themselves childish in the most accurate sense of the word, and based on my experience I would tend to agree.
I might buy one of these just to see what I would get. However, after experiencing the lockboxes in the game we get for armors (like the ones you can buy from NPC Merchants) and not getting what I needed due to RNG, I can't see me being a customer of lockboxes purchased with my own money.
Simple reason, I like to know what I am buying before I buy it.
I might buy one of these just to see what I would get. However, after experiencing the lockboxes in the game we get for armors (like the ones you can buy from NPC Merchants) and not getting what I needed due to RNG, I can't see me being a customer of lockboxes purchased with my own money.
Simple reason, I like to know what I am buying before I buy it.
Well u can look at it from a positive pt of view, they will have enough revenue to hire ppl and fix the dam game
I have never seen this happen in a game that does this. The random boxes become a huge money maker and why focus on anything else. Its what makes the money. The last game I played they updated the game maybe once a year. What they did update monthly was the random crates. Look at all the new cosmetics you can fork money over for a slight chance to win. They will focus their attention mainly on what makes them money. If you like gambling to play dress up in Tamriel this is a good direction. For everyone else it isn't. If no one bought these scam crates they would end up in the store for a flat price.I might buy one of these just to see what I would get. However, after experiencing the lockboxes in the game we get for armors (like the ones you can buy from NPC Merchants) and not getting what I needed due to RNG, I can't see me being a customer of lockboxes purchased with my own money.
Simple reason, I like to know what I am buying before I buy it.
Well u can look at it from a positive pt of view, they will have enough revenue to hire ppl and fix the dam game