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What do you think of Crown Store Random boxes/Lottery box?
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nimander99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.nimander99 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."
no, i was simply asking a question.
When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.
the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.
They do. They just don't share that data. No one wants to be known as the company that developed games so addictive they literally killed their players.
Yup, game companies will never share this data. Just like casinos never share the amount of payout vs pay-in. I have seen first hand what gambling addiction does to a person and family, I have also seen what drug addiction does... And you want to know what the difference is? Nothing.
Just to explain why you are correct - excessive gambling is as well a drug addiction - to the body-owned Dopamine, which is governing the reward systems in the brain among other things.
Yeah, there are some pretty amazing brain scans that show the pleasure center lighting up like a Christmas tree every time you take that hit or pull that lever.Edited by nimander99 on August 26, 2016 9:09PMI AM UPDATING MY PRIVACY POLICY
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
∽∽∽ 2 years of Elder Scrolls Online ∼∼∼
"Give us money" = Box sales & monthly sub fees,
"moar!" = £10 palomino horse,
"MOAR!" = Switch to B2P, launch cash shop,
"MOAR!!" = Charge for DLC that subs had already paid for,
"MOAR!!!" = Experience scrolls and riding lessons,
"MOARR!!!" = Vampire/werewolf bites,
"MOAARRR!!!" = CS exclusive motifs,
"MOOAARRR!!!" = Crown crates,
"MOOOAAARRR!!!" = 'Chapter's' bought separately from ESO+,
"MOOOOAAAARRRR!!!!" = ???
Male, Dunmer, VR16, Templar, Aldmeri Dominion, Master Crafter & all Traits, CP4500 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."
no, i was simply asking a question.
When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.
the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.
Well, actually I have looked into the matter a while ago - I guess it was last year but maybe the year before it - and the problem is actually to classify what kind of disorder this actually is. At that time where I investigated it, excessive gaming was not considered a psychiatric disorder, but it was suggested to become one in the future - the implication of this would be, that people who behave strangely in this way and cannot care for their real life in a normal way anymore, could be put under custody - even if they are adults - in Germany for their own good. But without it to be a disorder, people are free to do as they please, even if they are ruining their lives doing so.
it qualifies as addiction since it is self reinforcing behaviour with deleterious effects to the individual.
As long as it is not part of the official international catalogue of diseases, it cannot be acted on legally, at least not in Germany. As far as I know that is sometimes circumvented by declaring it an impulse control disorder, but not all excessive gaming shows the pattern of impulse control deficits. And that is the problem basically.Edited by Lysette on August 26, 2016 9:10PM1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.nimander99 wrote: »nimander99 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."
no, i was simply asking a question.
When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.
the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.
They do. They just don't share that data. No one wants to be known as the company that developed games so addictive they literally killed their players.
Yup, game companies will never share this data. Just like casinos never share the amount of payout vs pay-in. I have seen first hand what gambling addiction does to a person and family, I have also seen what drug addiction does... And you want to know what the difference is? Nothing.
Just to explain why you are correct - excessive gambling is as well a drug addiction - to the body-owned Dopamine, which is governing the reward systems in the brain among other things.
Yeah, there are some pretty amazing brain scans that show the pleasure center lighting up like a Christmas tree every time you take that hit or pull that lever.
The real problem with this kind of addiction is, that loosing is not making an addicted player avoiding it - if he looses or wins is the same response in his brain - unlike for a normal person, where a loss leads to a negative response, not so in a gambling addict.
It is a bit like with people who actually enjoy pain - a normal person has a negative response and will avoid pain, but someone addicted to pain has a positive response to it.
Edit: what relevance has this to ESO?- those RNG boxes can have a terrible payout, this does not matter at all for a gambling addict, he will buy those boxes, because if he wins or not both will foster what he is after.Edited by Lysette on August 26, 2016 9:19PM1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »Hitting rock bottom is usually suicide in a lot of addictions and mental health issues.
Yes, I thought about this as well - but you see what people post about this who are in favor of those boxes - they even feel insulted, when one just tells the truth about why those boxes are there in the first place. To me they are an immoral offer, and against the law in my home country - taking advantage of weaknesses of people to achieve an significantly increased price for an item - it is exactly that what those boxes are for. It is a law against immoral business offers, so most of my fellow citizens in Germany will feel exactly the same. It might not be in other countries - China is an example, there you can legally abuse the weakness of people, there is no protective law against that.
Well, it is difficult - one day there might be a consent between nations, what is immoral business practice and what is not, but currently it is a real mess. That an Elder Scrolls title has to do that is troublesome at least - and this shows as well in Fallout Shelter and might not stop there - it might not even come from ZOS, but from their peers, Zenimax themselves.
considering the part i put in bold can youstarkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »So every quarter or so there is a chance that these Crown Crates would turn into Pay to win?
The game can go pay to win everyday, as soon as the devs decide to do so. They haven't gone pay to win yet, in 2 years, there's no particular reason to believe they will do it now or any time soon, crown crates or not.
wow.... a sensible, rational comment.
Just, one that suggests the author hasn't played the game yet.
I know, we all look at stuff like the Imperials and the Julianos set as fair and balanced... until you start seeing those things getting lauded as the best option for certain builds. And then remember that, yeah, ZOS is actually getting paid.
It's not P2W in the extreme, like you get from F2P grindfests, that will just flat out sell you a weapon that does 10% more damage than anything you can otherwise obtain... but, stacking up Spell Damage is still way more obnoxious than stacking up weapon damage, and suddenly Julianos isn't exactly the same as Hundings but on the other bar, it's actually more valuable, given available resources. Anyone else remember the utter tantrums we got about Kena being available to non-subscribers via The Golden? But, wait, it's not P2W, it was just the single best DPS monster set in the game, at the time.
To say nothing of this little gem. It is easier to obtain V16 gear, even now, as a subscriber, than as a free player. Maybe that will change with U12, I don't know, and neither do you. But right now, if you want to make V16 gear as a free player, you need to go to Cyrodiil, or run vet dungeons. As a subscriber, you just need to wander around and listen for thieves caches, or you can start switching to actually useful sets by running content in Wrothgar, Hew's Bane, or on The Gold Coast.
Sure, as a free player you can theoretically catch up, but the opportunity cost is far higher.
That's time that a subscriber can put towards advancing their CR, towards gathering more mats, towards grinding in the new zones.
Maybe U12 will rectify some of this.
But, saying there's no direct statistical advantages for spending money on ESO is flat out wrong.
you forgot to add that you have to buy the box in the first place so that makes it p2w right?
can i what? - do you want to know the law - §138 section 2 BGB.
Nichtig ist insbesondere ein Rechtsgeschäft, durch das jemand unter Ausbeutung der Zwangslage, der Unerfahrenheit, des Mangels an Urteilsvermögen oder der erheblichen Willensschwäche eines anderen sich oder einem Dritten für eine Leistung Vermögensvorteile versprechen oder gewähren lässt, die in einem auffälligen Missverhältnis zu der Leistung stehen.
"der erheblichen Willensschwäche" is referring to what impulse control disorder is like or any addiction basically. "auffälligen Missverhältnis zur der Leistung stehen" means, there is a significant discrepancy between the value offered and what the customer will have paid for it. Furthermore "Mangel an Urteilsvermögen'" can refer to when someone is incapable of grasping what the business deal offers exactly. "Unerfahrenheit" is being inexperienced in the matter. So more than just one of these things are actually given.
sorry?
what does this have to do with the conversation you commented on.....the discussion there was about p2w
No you high-lighted 2 things - in my post as well - the one where I was referring to that law and that most germans will therefore feel like I do about the matter - your comment to this was incomplete - ended in "can you" - and I did not know what you wanted from me, so I assumed you wanted the text of the law.
oh that..... no. it was the idea that german companies are beyond reproach, was going to comment but decided against it. i thought i had deleted that.
BEHOLD THE DRAFT SYSTEM! ARBITER OF THE ORIGINAL NECROPOSTS! BEWARE THE NECROPOSTS! THEY DEVOUR ALL IN THEIR PATH AND RISE UNBIDDEN FROM THE GRAVE OF BACKSPACE!
que?
Et was?
When the draft autosave function necros a post you thought better of actually releasing into the wild, because you quoted someone else, and didn't realize the original post was in the window.
yeah... lol. back spacing doesn't work to get rid of it. weird, that post was going to be made hours ago and this pc has been off since then.
haunted by a supposedly deleted post.... who'da thought it.
It's recorded by the site, not your system.0 -
Kendaric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.jedtb16_ESO wrote: »Well, actually I have looked into the matter a while ago - I guess it was last year but maybe the year before it - and the problem is actually to classify what kind of disorder this actually is. At that time where I investigated it, excessive gaming was not considered a psychiatric disorder, but it was suggested to become one in the future - the implication of this would be, that people who behave strangely in this way and cannot care for their real life in a normal way anymore, could be put under custody - even if they are adults - in Germany for their own good. But without it to be a disorder, people are free to do as they please, even if they are ruining their lives doing so.
it qualifies as addiction since it is self reinforcing behaviour with deleterious effects to the individual.
It's not yet recognized in the ICD-11 and DSM-5 suggests it for inclusion in the future but states that more research is needed (at least that was the state of affairs in 2014).
1 -
nimander99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.nimander99 wrote: »nimander99 wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Are you implying that we shouldn't care? We should just approach everything with an apathetic malaise and say, "well, someone died, that's tragic, oooh, goodies."
no, i was simply asking a question.
When it is a case like in south korea where a couple has let their baby starve to death while they actually cared for a virtual baby in an online game - then I guess, we have to care, for the sake of the baby, who cannot care for it by itself.
the impact can be as serious as alcohol, drug or gambling addiction - to date there has not been a great deal of research done though - which is a shame since i would think all online game companies would have some kind of record how long people spend actively in their games.
They do. They just don't share that data. No one wants to be known as the company that developed games so addictive they literally killed their players.
Yup, game companies will never share this data. Just like casinos never share the amount of payout vs pay-in. I have seen first hand what gambling addiction does to a person and family, I have also seen what drug addiction does... And you want to know what the difference is? Nothing.
Just to explain why you are correct - excessive gambling is as well a drug addiction - to the body-owned Dopamine, which is governing the reward systems in the brain among other things.
Yeah, there are some pretty amazing brain scans that show the pleasure center lighting up like a Christmas tree every time you take that hit or pull that lever.
The real problem with this kind of addiction is, that loosing is not making an addicted player avoiding it - if he looses or wins is the same response in his brain - unlike for a normal person, where a loss leads to a negative response, not so in a gambling addict.
It is a bit like with people who actually enjoy pain - a normal person has a negative response and will avoid pain, but someone addicted to pain has a positive response to it.
You beat me too it. I've had people tell me it wasn't about winning or losing... Sometimes they would even say the rush was better betting big and losing than winning. It's the chase. Chase it, chase, hunt... Basic human nature. The addicts brain can rewire itself. Masochists, many times are not initially masochistic, although the argument can be made that the tendencies were there, but I would argue we all have the same tendencies. Some just have better control or aversion to risk.I AM UPDATING MY PRIVACY POLICY
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
∽∽∽ 2 years of Elder Scrolls Online ∼∼∼
"Give us money" = Box sales & monthly sub fees,
"moar!" = £10 palomino horse,
"MOAR!" = Switch to B2P, launch cash shop,
"MOAR!!" = Charge for DLC that subs had already paid for,
"MOAR!!!" = Experience scrolls and riding lessons,
"MOARR!!!" = Vampire/werewolf bites,
"MOAARRR!!!" = CS exclusive motifs,
"MOOAARRR!!!" = Crown crates,
"MOOOAAARRR!!!" = 'Chapter's' bought separately from ESO+,
"MOOOOAAAARRRR!!!!" = ???
Male, Dunmer, VR16, Templar, Aldmeri Dominion, Master Crafter & all Traits, CP4500 -
Recremen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.jedtb16_ESO wrote: »jedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Actually this game doesn't meet my requirements for speaking out on things like encouraging long grinding sessions or other compulsion-enabling design choices. In fact, with Veteran Rank Removal, the Collections UI, and other features, they've made a pretty safe gaming environment for people prone to compulsive gaming! I'm glad I'm not the only one considerate of that target population. I mean, unless you aren't actually considerate of them and are just trying to score debate team points. But that would be such an awful thing to be caught doing.
there is not one thing to stop me logging in now and playing till i drop. other, that is, than my own sense of self preservation.
score debating points? that is pathetic.
There's nothing to stop you from logging in except a complete lack of incentive to grind for days. Compulsive gaming and similar disorders don't exist in a vacuum, they are highly dependent on environmental factors like the game's design.Men'Do PC NA AD Khajiit
Grand High Illustrious Mid-Tier PvP/PvE Bussmunster2 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.
What's ridiculous is who comes to an mmo saying where are the 4$ slot machines, I'm feeling lucky. Pulls handle and gets crown gem, crown gem, and tri pots. After ten pulls of that handle, most people probably won't have anything useful to them.MarkusLiberty wrote: »maybe it is just their right to get screwed over by a company - maybe we should just let them do it.
Yes please. I really dont need yours or anyone else's "protection" in regards to my spendings. And I doubt most people here do. If it means that much to you perhaps you should join an anti-gambling organizations?
Sorry if I'm sounding hostile, but this is getting just a bit ridiculous.
However, people will keep pulling that handle, and we will get monthly rng content updates. We will get yearly game updates if lucky. If no one bought into this, where would the rng content end up. On the store where it should be. I can't believe what's happened to the mmo market.
The progression made sense, though.
This started out as an element in games sold in markets where piracy rates were astronomical. As a developer, you needed a way to get players to actually pay you, and server focused systems with microtransactions were the natural answer. I'm not sure who hit on the idea of the lucky bag first. There were two approaches originally to maintaining a constant stream, lucky bags, and item rentals. Of the two, the bags proved more lucrative, and the item rentals fell by the way.
The jump from eastern to western games started when western MMOs were going under, and being picked up by Chinese and Korean publishers, who'd rework them to use their own business models, and put them back on the market. Then it became a revolting game of follow the leader.1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.jedtb16_ESO wrote: »Well, actually I have looked into the matter a while ago - I guess it was last year but maybe the year before it - and the problem is actually to classify what kind of disorder this actually is. At that time where I investigated it, excessive gaming was not considered a psychiatric disorder, but it was suggested to become one in the future - the implication of this would be, that people who behave strangely in this way and cannot care for their real life in a normal way anymore, could be put under custody - even if they are adults - in Germany for their own good. But without it to be a disorder, people are free to do as they please, even if they are ruining their lives doing so.
it qualifies as addiction since it is self reinforcing behaviour with deleterious effects to the individual.
It's not yet recognized in the ICD-11 and DSM-5 suggests it for inclusion in the future but states that more research is needed (at least that was the state of affairs in 2014).
then i guess I looked into it in 2014 - that is as well what I got to know last.0 -
Blackbird71✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Blackbird71 wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »catsgomeow wrote: »The thing about rng boxes some people might not know about is the history of them throughout the mmorpg scene, they have followed the same path in almost every mmo that has introduced them without fail and i dont see why eso would be any different, they only start out cosmetic only, then its exclusive items then it gets into the realm of pay to win then outright pay to win.
I heard EXACTLY the same 18 months ago on the B2P (Tamriel Unlimited) annoucement : ESO was 100% doomed to become P2W before you know it. Yet 18 months later there's still not an ounce of P2W in ESO.
So sorry, but I don't buy it at all. Crown Crates are NOT compelled to make ESO P2W.
Do you really not see the irony in that statement? You are claiming that those who said the game would become P2W were wrong, yet here we are witnessing the next step on the path to P2W being laid out right before our eyes. No one said it would happen instantly, but rather the opposite, that it is a slow and steady progression which the game is continuously moving towards.
So your argument is "We weren't over reacting before because the game is going to become P2W any day now after this just you wait!"
*grin*
Well, I wasn't present for the previous "over reacting" as you put it, but I've seen this exact same path in other games. First, the game is subscription based, then it becomes free to play (whether fully or partial) and introduces "micro" transactions (really, the prices in the Crown Store show that ZOS does not understand the term "micro"), and then it introduces random loot boxes for "cosmetic items only", and then it begins introducing exclusive items and content (non-cosmetic) into the loot boxes, and then the best stuff in the game is all locked away in the boxes, and the developers stop producing any real or quality content for the game in favor of focusing on the loot boxes instead.
Edit: Frankly, it is this last step that concerns me the most. Whether or not the game goes P2W, there has always been a distinct drop in the quality of a game that has implemented such random boxes. It's as if the developers realize they can become lazy, as those who buy the boxes will provide more funding for less effort (on the developers' part) than they would ever earn from actual content, so they stop caring about the quality or quantity of the content they produce. Release schedules are scaled back if not eliminated altogether, and each release introduces more an more bugs, without any evidence of genuine efforts to fix them, all because the game is now funded through RNG boxes. This is the state of the game I wish to avoid, and this is the path we are on. P2W or no P2W, these boxes have been devastating in any game I have seen them in before, and I have seen no reason to expect they will be otherwise here.
I'm assuming your argument is "it hasn't happened yet, so it's never going to happen, there's no reason to expect ZOS will continue the path just like other games, I'll just keep my fingers in my ears, la la la!"
(Be careful when you make ridiculous summations and over-simplifications of your opponents' arguments, they can go both ways and really don't achieve anything for either side.)Edited by Blackbird71 on August 26, 2016 9:42PM6 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, don't ever add these into the game.
Do some people not realize how easy it would be to drain away money like this. 10 rolls is equivalent to $40.
What's ridiculous is who comes to an mmo saying where are the 4$ slot machines, I'm feeling lucky. Pulls handle and gets crown gem, crown gem, and tri pots. After ten pulls of that handle, most people probably won't have anything useful to them.MarkusLiberty wrote: »maybe it is just their right to get screwed over by a company - maybe we should just let them do it.
Yes please. I really dont need yours or anyone else's "protection" in regards to my spendings. And I doubt most people here do. If it means that much to you perhaps you should join an anti-gambling organizations?
Sorry if I'm sounding hostile, but this is getting just a bit ridiculous.
However, people will keep pulling that handle, and we will get monthly rng content updates. We will get yearly game updates if lucky. If no one bought into this, where would the rng content end up. On the store where it should be. I can't believe what's happened to the mmo market.
4 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.
Do some people not realize how easy it would be to drain away money like this. 10 rolls is equivalent to $40.
What's ridiculous is who comes to an mmo saying where are the 4$ slot machines, I'm feeling lucky. Pulls handle and gets crown gem, crown gem, and tri pots. After ten pulls of that handle, most people probably won't have anything useful to them.MarkusLiberty wrote: »maybe it is just their right to get screwed over by a company - maybe we should just let them do it.
Yes please. I really dont need yours or anyone else's "protection" in regards to my spendings. And I doubt most people here do. If it means that much to you perhaps you should join an anti-gambling organizations?
Sorry if I'm sounding hostile, but this is getting just a bit ridiculous.
However, people will keep pulling that handle, and we will get monthly rng content updates. We will get yearly game updates if lucky. If no one bought into this, where would the rng content end up. On the store where it should be. I can't believe what's happened to the mmo market.
They really don't.
I'd give you flak for quoting yourself... but I just did that earlier...
3 -
nimander99✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Blackbird71 wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »catsgomeow wrote: »The thing about rng boxes some people might not know about is the history of them throughout the mmorpg scene, they have followed the same path in almost every mmo that has introduced them without fail and i dont see why eso would be any different, they only start out cosmetic only, then its exclusive items then it gets into the realm of pay to win then outright pay to win.
I heard EXACTLY the same 18 months ago on the B2P (Tamriel Unlimited) annoucement : ESO was 100% doomed to become P2W before you know it. Yet 18 months later there's still not an ounce of P2W in ESO.
So sorry, but I don't buy it at all. Crown Crates are NOT compelled to make ESO P2W.
Do you really not see the irony in that statement? You are claiming that those who said the game would become P2W were wrong, yet here we are witnessing the next step on the path to P2W being laid out right before our eyes. No one said it would happen instantly, but rather the opposite, that it is a slow and steady progression which the game is continuously moving towards.
So your argument is "We weren't over reacting before because the game is going to become P2W any day now after this just you wait!"
*grin*
Well, I wasn't present for the previous "over reacting" as you put it, but I've seen this exact same path in other games. First, the game is subscription based, then it becomes free to play (whether fully or partial) and introduces "micro" transactions (really, the prices in the Crown Store show that ZOS does not understand the term "micro"), and then it introduces random loot boxes for "cosmetic items only", and then it begins introducing exclusive items and content (non-cosmetic) into the loot boxes, and then the best stuff in the game is all locked away in the boxes, and the developers stop producing any real or quality content for the game in favor of focusing on the loot boxes instead.
I'm assuming your argument is "it hasn't happened yet, so it's never going to happen, there's no reason to expect ZOS will continue the path just like other games, I'll just keep my fingers in my ears, la la la!"
(Be careful when you make ridiculous summations and over-simplifications of your opponents' arguments, they can go both ways and really don't achieve anything for either side.)
Yup, we commonly hear: The game is an ever evolving world... Or some such non-sense which translates into: The market is ever evolving and we see how much other <insert business> models work and we want that market share.
Meanwhile the community dies. A few big spenders are left. The others just play with no real 'spirit' in the game. Content creators evaporate etc.
But none of that matters! As long as our Quarterlies are in the black. Doesn't matter if we make it off 1 gamer or 5 million.
The market continues to shrink, used to be annuals, now its quarterlies... In a decade it'll be dailies (Yes pun intended)I AM UPDATING MY PRIVACY POLICY
PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
∽∽∽ 2 years of Elder Scrolls Online ∼∼∼
"Give us money" = Box sales & monthly sub fees,
"moar!" = £10 palomino horse,
"MOAR!" = Switch to B2P, launch cash shop,
"MOAR!!" = Charge for DLC that subs had already paid for,
"MOAR!!!" = Experience scrolls and riding lessons,
"MOARR!!!" = Vampire/werewolf bites,
"MOAARRR!!!" = CS exclusive motifs,
"MOOAARRR!!!" = Crown crates,
"MOOOAAARRR!!!" = 'Chapter's' bought separately from ESO+,
"MOOOOAAAARRRR!!!!" = ???
Male, Dunmer, VR16, Templar, Aldmeri Dominion, Master Crafter & all Traits, CP4502 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.
Do some people not realize how easy it would be to drain away money like this. 10 rolls is equivalent to $40.
What's ridiculous is who comes to an mmo saying where are the 4$ slot machines, I'm feeling lucky. Pulls handle and gets crown gem, crown gem, and tri pots. After ten pulls of that handle, most people probably won't have anything useful to them.MarkusLiberty wrote: »maybe it is just their right to get screwed over by a company - maybe we should just let them do it.
Yes please. I really dont need yours or anyone else's "protection" in regards to my spendings. And I doubt most people here do. If it means that much to you perhaps you should join an anti-gambling organizations?
Sorry if I'm sounding hostile, but this is getting just a bit ridiculous.
However, people will keep pulling that handle, and we will get monthly rng content updates. We will get yearly game updates if lucky. If no one bought into this, where would the rng content end up. On the store where it should be. I can't believe what's happened to the mmo market.
That is why games and casinos do not use real money but crowns or jetons - that the player looses a feeling for the value of what he has available and is risking or paying. The same happens for example if you are in a foreign country with a different currency - you might just spend too much or more than you would if it would be in your familiar currency.5 -
Blackbird71✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Blackbird71 wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »catsgomeow wrote: »The thing about rng boxes some people might not know about is the history of them throughout the mmorpg scene, they have followed the same path in almost every mmo that has introduced them without fail and i dont see why eso would be any different, they only start out cosmetic only, then its exclusive items then it gets into the realm of pay to win then outright pay to win.
I heard EXACTLY the same 18 months ago on the B2P (Tamriel Unlimited) annoucement : ESO was 100% doomed to become P2W before you know it. Yet 18 months later there's still not an ounce of P2W in ESO.
So sorry, but I don't buy it at all. Crown Crates are NOT compelled to make ESO P2W.
Do you really not see the irony in that statement? You are claiming that those who said the game would become P2W were wrong, yet here we are witnessing the next step on the path to P2W being laid out right before our eyes. No one said it would happen instantly, but rather the opposite, that it is a slow and steady progression which the game is continuously moving towards.
And yet we are no nearer P2W now than we were then. You cannot point to a single item in the Crown Store or Crown Crates that is essential to buy or which conveys a gaming advantage to anyone who buys it. We're only now on the next step to P2W for those who thought B2P was the first step, and it turned out to be nothing of the sort. Nothing we've been told yet suggests that Crown Crates will be any more P2W than B2P has turned out to be.
How can we be on the "next step" now (as you admit we are), if the first step was in fact "nothing of the sort"? The very fact that we are on the next step validates the first step as being such. Your statement is a self-contradiction.
2 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Well, one could argue that a costume in itself is an advantage, because it conceals what armor you are really wearing - so lots of P2W actually
in this aspect a "cosmetic" item provides an advantage in combat.
Let's see what else is pay to win in the crown store - every DLC - because it has new sky shards in it's territory and new skill points in it's quests. Having access to even more guild traders can be an advantage too - so this could all be considered P2W.Edited by Lysette on August 26, 2016 9:43PM1 -
jeevin✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Blackbird71 wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »catsgomeow wrote: »The thing about rng boxes some people might not know about is the history of them throughout the mmorpg scene, they have followed the same path in almost every mmo that has introduced them without fail and i dont see why eso would be any different, they only start out cosmetic only, then its exclusive items then it gets into the realm of pay to win then outright pay to win.
I heard EXACTLY the same 18 months ago on the B2P (Tamriel Unlimited) annoucement : ESO was 100% doomed to become P2W before you know it. Yet 18 months later there's still not an ounce of P2W in ESO.
So sorry, but I don't buy it at all. Crown Crates are NOT compelled to make ESO P2W.
Do you really not see the irony in that statement? You are claiming that those who said the game would become P2W were wrong, yet here we are witnessing the next step on the path to P2W being laid out right before our eyes. No one said it would happen instantly, but rather the opposite, that it is a slow and steady progression which the game is continuously moving towards.
And yet we are no nearer P2W now than we were then. You cannot point to a single item in the Crown Store or Crown Crates that is essential to buy or which conveys a gaming advantage to anyone who buys it. We're only now on the next step to P2W for those who thought B2P was the first step, and it turned out to be nothing of the sort. Nothing we've been told yet suggests that Crown Crates will be any more P2W than B2P has turned out to be.
How can we be on the "next step" now (as you admit we are), if the first step was in fact "nothing of the sort"? The very fact that we are on the next step validates the first step as being such. Your statement is a self-contradiction.
Every journey begins with the first step
Edited by jeevin on August 26, 2016 9:42PM1 -
Slurg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamblestarkerealm wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
Well, let me think back a bit:starkerealm wrote: »Bouldercleave wrote: »You people act like ZoS has a flippin gun to your temple.
So much drama and overreaction about an OPTIONAL feature of the game.
The ONLY one here that I can agree with though is Cazzy. At lease Cazzy had a rational reason for disliking the feature.
Okay, let me explain why this is a problem.
Luckybags make A LOT of money for an MMO. It comes with increased turnover, but these things will keep companies going. Cryptic was pretty open at one point saying that they had players who were spending over 5k a year on keys.
Why does this matter? I mean, more money for the game, right? Actually... not so much.
So, when you're evaluating, as a developer, what to upgrade or fix in your game, you need to evaluate what your ROI is going to be. In a normal MMO, there's a serious incentive to fix issues with the game. That's where your money is coming from, that's what you need to fix.
But, lucky bags exist in, almost total, isolation from that. You have people who will pay to roll the dice endlessly.
This means, for a developer, if they've got a bugged achievement that won't award a cool skin for finishing a dungeon, or a bug that causes the lucky bags to pay out at a higher than intended rate... they're going to fix the bag drop rate right now, because that affects their bottom line. The other issue stays low on the priorities list.
Similarly, if you're looking at developing new content, the stuff that's going into the bag will be worth A LOT more to you, as a developer, so it will get higher priority than actual new content.
Finally, there's a huge incentive to making the bags more attractive to consumers. Initially it's enough to say, "well, just cosmetic stuff," but inevitably you're going to see stuff going into those bags that's more valuable than what you can get in game, just to keep people coming back. Stuff like: unique sets, or consumables that do things you cannot replicate in game. Consider that the XP scrolls are already considerably better than the ambrosia pots you can get in game naturally, simply because they last longer.
Now, initially you can say those unique sets aren't pay to win because they're not better than the ones in game, but the serious temptation will be to go that route. Even when ZOS has said they won't at this point. They also said they wouldn't be sticking luckybags in the game AT ALL, and have now gone back on that promise.
What you're seeing here is, actually, the death of the game. The luckybags will make more money than the normal content, meaning they'll get priority, they'll become more important to the developers than the game itself, simply because it makes them more money.
They're not holding a gun to anyone's head, but the decision to include these will warp and corrupt the entire development pipeline, just like it has for every other MMO that implemented a similar system.starkerealm wrote: »Well, it actually devalues the game. I mean, makes the game less valuable as a product. MMOs require a community to keep going. All that random blathering in zone that's tempered by longtime players who can actually provide coherent information? What happens when they start to leave? When no one can actually answer the questions getting asked in those zones? And, granted, that's an extreme example, but it's one I've logged into on other games that went to boxes and gutted their community. When the vets leave, the game becomes less accessible for newbies.
I can find some other, non-I need to protect you from yourself posts, if you really want, but there's far more wrong with this than just players with impulse control issues having problems.
I would like to be protected from being asked by ZOS to buy everything I didn't want to buy in the crown store via gamble boxes multiple times in order to amass enough crown gems to buy each thing I actually want to buy. *
But since we're on page 80 and it looks like that's not going to happen anytime soon, I guess I'll just keep my wallet closed for now and see how this turns out.
*I do not have impulse control problems, and am perfectly capable of saying no. I just find these sorts of tactics annoying as hell and don't wish to have them pushed on me in a game that is supposed to be fun.
Edited by Slurg on August 26, 2016 9:46PMHappy All the Holidays To You and Yours!
Remembering better days of less RNG in all the things.3 -
MarkusLiberty✭✭✭✭✭Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmeticsWell, one could argue that a costume in itself is an advantage, because it conceals what armor you are really wearing - so lots of P2W actually in this aspect a "cosmetic" item provides an advantage in combat.
Let's see what else is pay to win in the crown store - every DLC - because it has new sky shards in it's territory and new skill points in it's quests. Having access to even more guild traders can be an advantage too - so this could all be considered P2W.
Well, I think that what is considered Pay 2 win is a completely individual thing. For some people "winning" might involve getting the perfect character look, a nice mount and matching costume/armor.
Other people might consider in-game wealth a form of winning, or acquiring a certain type of motifs.
I guess what most people consider winning is being able to complete difficult dungeons/trails and defeating other players in PVP.
I dont think it's possible for Zenimax to entierly avoid every sort of Pay2Win with their Crown Store, but I think the nice thing about their approach is that none of the items you can buy in the store really gives you an advantage that cannot easily be acquired through some in-game means anyway. I doubt they would ever move away from that philosophy.*Special Snowflake*0 -
Doctordarkspawn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Wow. We just hit 80 pages. CAN WE HIT ONE HUNDRED BOYO'S? LETS CONTINUE SPINNIN' THAT WHEEL AND SEE!0 -
wayfarerx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmeticsDoctordarkspawn wrote: »Wow. We just hit 80 pages. CAN WE HIT ONE HUNDRED BOYO'S? LETS CONTINUE SPINNIN' THAT WHEEL AND SEE!
Sorry, threads over 90 pages can only be unlocked with a rare crown crate drop.@wayfarerx - PC / North America / Aldmeri Dominion8 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No I dislike the random crown store boxes, to much of a gamblejedtb16_ESO wrote: »I wonder if some of you guys realise how patronising you come across when talking about how important it is that you protect other players from themselves.
I wonder if you realize how callous and out of touch you sound by implying that there aren't people who need to be protected from this kind of market.
are you also aware that there is a condition of compulsive gaming?
people have died because of it..... are you going to campaign to protect them too?
Well... ESO didn't have gambling from very the start.
But it was always pretty much a game.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmeticsBlackbird71 wrote: »Blackbird71 wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »catsgomeow wrote: »The thing about rng boxes some people might not know about is the history of them throughout the mmorpg scene, they have followed the same path in almost every mmo that has introduced them without fail and i dont see why eso would be any different, they only start out cosmetic only, then its exclusive items then it gets into the realm of pay to win then outright pay to win.
I heard EXACTLY the same 18 months ago on the B2P (Tamriel Unlimited) annoucement : ESO was 100% doomed to become P2W before you know it. Yet 18 months later there's still not an ounce of P2W in ESO.
So sorry, but I don't buy it at all. Crown Crates are NOT compelled to make ESO P2W.
Do you really not see the irony in that statement? You are claiming that those who said the game would become P2W were wrong, yet here we are witnessing the next step on the path to P2W being laid out right before our eyes. No one said it would happen instantly, but rather the opposite, that it is a slow and steady progression which the game is continuously moving towards.
And yet we are no nearer P2W now than we were then. You cannot point to a single item in the Crown Store or Crown Crates that is essential to buy or which conveys a gaming advantage to anyone who buys it. We're only now on the next step to P2W for those who thought B2P was the first step, and it turned out to be nothing of the sort. Nothing we've been told yet suggests that Crown Crates will be any more P2W than B2P has turned out to be.
How can we be on the "next step" now (as you admit we are), if the first step was in fact "nothing of the sort"? The very fact that we are on the next step validates the first step as being such. Your statement is a self-contradiction.
I suggest you re-read the words you highlighted. I didn't admit any such thing, I said we're only on the next step now for (i.e. in the minds of) those who thought B2P was the first step which it wasn't. Let me rephrase it and see if that makes it any clearer - it's only those who thought B2P was the first step to P2W who think we're now on the next step. They were wrong then, and they're wrong now. Regardless of the arguments for and against the switch to B2P and the introduction of lockboxes, neither is remotely related to P2W.Edited by Tandor on August 26, 2016 10:57PM3 -
Blackbird71✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.VerboseQuips wrote: »When people say we should just become adults, I hear this : "Why don't you just get finally resigned to the prospect that greed will corrupt everything you might love, as do all adults who know that the triumph of greed is a law of nature, and therefore, unavoidable? Grow up disenchanted like you should do!"
Probably this is a matter of personnality traits, something like pragmatism vs idealism...
(On a side note, how has childish become pejorative in the first place? Children are fully conscious of their surroundings, they have a wonderful ability to marvel at the world and to learn from it, something that most adults have lost to habits.)
The ever-insightful C. S. Lewis had something to say on that matter, and I think it is applicable here:C. S. Lewis wrote:Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.
By this assessment, "childish" is only used as a pejorative by those who are themselves childish in the most accurate sense of the word, and based on my experience I would tend to agree.3 -
Dromede✭✭✭✭Yes I like the random boxes idea so Long as they only have cosmeticsWow, i haven't even considered the idea of acquiring costumes that i made a conscious and informed decision not to buy due to quality/immersion/gender and other issues...
The system seems more and more flawed as we get more info about it.. i hope they introduce some kind of exchange for gems for all the unwanted costumes/mounts etc outside of duplicate system.Skye Cloude - Sorc DPS, Master Crafter. Main, the bestest
Lae Lenne - Templar Healer Trial grade.
Dromede - Stamina Nightblade, she's a newb and doesn't know what she's doing
V'oghatta - Stamplar pretending to be a tank
Ulville Thonvella - aspiring Fire Mage, be careful around her fire sticks!
Dromedaris - lost and not found. Named after a shoe, what else can you expect from her? A proper tank in her wildest dreams
Swims-Naked - too pretty to grind, too silly to quest.
Sun Flair - Dunmer Templar that can't spell for life. To bad she's too broke to afford a name change... Well, at least she's pretty...4 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.MarkusLiberty wrote: »Well, one could argue that a costume in itself is an advantage, because it conceals what armor you are really wearing - so lots of P2W actually in this aspect a "cosmetic" item provides an advantage in combat.
Let's see what else is pay to win in the crown store - every DLC - because it has new sky shards in it's territory and new skill points in it's quests. Having access to even more guild traders can be an advantage too - so this could all be considered P2W.
Well, I think that what is considered Pay 2 win is a completely individual thing. For some people "winning" might involve getting the perfect character look, a nice mount and matching costume/armor.
Other people might consider in-game wealth a form of winning, or acquiring a certain type of motifs.
I guess what most people consider winning is being able to complete difficult dungeons/trails and defeating other players in PVP.
I dont think it's possible for Zenimax to entierly avoid every sort of Pay2Win with their Crown Store, but I think the nice thing about their approach is that none of the items you can buy in the store really gives you an advantage that cannot easily be acquired through some in-game means anyway. I doubt they would ever move away from that philosophy.
Yes, I thought it is obvious, that this is not entirely serious - sorry, I should have been clearer about this.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.Blackbird71 wrote: »VerboseQuips wrote: »When people say we should just become adults, I hear this : "Why don't you just get finally resigned to the prospect that greed will corrupt everything you might love, as do all adults who know that the triumph of greed is a law of nature, and therefore, unavoidable? Grow up disenchanted like you should do!"
Probably this is a matter of personnality traits, something like pragmatism vs idealism...
(On a side note, how has childish become pejorative in the first place? Children are fully conscious of their surroundings, they have a wonderful ability to marvel at the world and to learn from it, something that most adults have lost to habits.)
The ever-insightful C. S. Lewis had something to say on that matter, and I think it is applicable here:C. S. Lewis wrote:Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.
By this assessment, "childish" is only used as a pejorative by those who are themselves childish in the most accurate sense of the word, and based on my experience I would tend to agree.
Well, counter-example - to state, that tea bagging is childish - is a fact, I do not have to be childish myself to state a fact.1 -
Avenias✭✭✭✭Yes but I just want it to be pay to win items, plus cosmeticsI might buy one of these just to see what I would get. However, after experiencing the lockboxes in the game we get for armors (like the ones you can buy from NPC Merchants) and not getting what I needed due to RNG, I can't see me being a customer of lockboxes purchased with my own money.
Simple reason, I like to know what I am buying before I buy it.
Well u can look at it from a positive pt of view, they will have enough revenue to hire ppl and fix the dam game0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, don't ever add these into the game.I might buy one of these just to see what I would get. However, after experiencing the lockboxes in the game we get for armors (like the ones you can buy from NPC Merchants) and not getting what I needed due to RNG, I can't see me being a customer of lockboxes purchased with my own money.
Simple reason, I like to know what I am buying before I buy it.
Well u can look at it from a positive pt of view, they will have enough revenue to hire ppl and fix the dam game
Which, they won't do, because the money will go back into the boxes, and not in to fixing the game. But, wear that purple badge, man.4 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭No, don't ever add these into the game.
I have never seen this happen in a game that does this. The random boxes become a huge money maker and why focus on anything else. Its what makes the money. The last game I played they updated the game maybe once a year. What they did update monthly was the random crates. Look at all the new cosmetics you can fork money over for a slight chance to win. They will focus their attention mainly on what makes them money. If you like gambling to play dress up in Tamriel this is a good direction. For everyone else it isn't. If no one bought these scam crates they would end up in the store for a flat price.I might buy one of these just to see what I would get. However, after experiencing the lockboxes in the game we get for armors (like the ones you can buy from NPC Merchants) and not getting what I needed due to RNG, I can't see me being a customer of lockboxes purchased with my own money.
Simple reason, I like to know what I am buying before I buy it.
Well u can look at it from a positive pt of view, they will have enough revenue to hire ppl and fix the dam gameEdited by JimT722 on August 27, 2016 4:11AM2
This discussion has been closed.