A rant about players.

Leandor

With the current game, you have those that, by "creative use of game mechanics", manage to be almost invincible and then there's us, the so-called "scrubs".

You have those that are blessed with a perfect internet connection and enough time on their hands to perfect their "animation cancelling skills" to maximize their damage output and again us "scrubs" that aren't.

No matter what you change in the game, it will always benefit the "elite" most.

The problem in this game may have been the mechanics at some point, but by now it is only the players themselves to blame.

We as a community have fostered an attitude of unsportsmanship that is by now inherent and irrevocable. You see that anytime you visit cyrodiil.

A few examples:
- a certain stamina templar that tied for win in a recent 1v1 tournament (Aldmeri) running together with a few blues (amongst them a certain dk o his stamina nightblade alt with a name very similar to the famous champignon mushroom) to get the red scroll, running peacefully alongside, just to "troll reds".
- a certain blue emperor on ebony blade EU who stands back and beams or sieges with close to 50 other elite small scalers beating on 6 reds trying to defend a keep at 1am monday night, just bcause they can.
- a certain yellow pro smallscale guild with a banana name taking the *** at the 7 reds that tried to recap at least one keep after blues managed to gatecamp only one of the gates (one has to be grateful for the small things) after they apparently failed to farm AP against the blues at ash.

Nothing I have written is against any rule and thus it is useless to complain about. It just shows the attitude of players in this game.

Now I am sure there are enough reds that do exactly the same, but I don't have examples because I only pvp on red side (for whatever reason I seem to be one of the very few that are actually true to their own decision).

The problem in this game are the players and only the players. It is sad to realize that. I hope you guys I named here see the point in what I have written, but most probably you will only reply "l2p" as usual.

bitaken

More Pew Pew ...less QQ makes Johhny a better player.


In all seriousness? You are taking this game far too serious. Maybe take a walk outside? Maybe take the dog with you? Maybe go on a date with a person for lunch? Maybe go see a movie?

This is a game - for entertainment. No one is getting paid playing it. People do what they want and no one is going to stop them. Ani canceling is not hard...you should practice it. The difference between the best players and the scrubs is almost always a better understanding of min/max and group play.

Leandor

Q.E.D.

Thanks for proving my point. This is not about me being a worse player than someone else. I know that and I have no problem whatsoever with it.

You are part of exactly what I am criticizing there and you react exctly the way I expected you to. A L2P comment.

/golfclap

Turelus

While I do feel good players who spend the time to learn mechanics, or players with a natural skill should hold some advantage I do think we have a community which is backwards here.

In other gaming communities i have been part of the elite as you call them tend to share their knowledge and help bring others to their level to have more enjoyable fights. Players who are not able the understand the advanced mechanics themselves join groups with leaders who can explain them and help players move towards being better.

Here however it seems to be a situation where the elite as you call them want to lord over everyone with their skill, they need to be the best and let everyone know that. The community for this game is sadly one of the most toxic and egotistical I have ever been part of, there are great people here but sadly the impressions of the egos tend to stick out more.

covenant_merchant

@Etaniel think that mushroom comment is about your tragic and unpredictable betrayal of DC on Ebony xD

Nafirian

Banter @Etaniel YOUR KILLING THE GAME!

Leandor

Smh... why do I bother?

WillhelmBlack

Bants.

It's not that bad. PvP has been worse, beginning of TG was horrendous. I'm not one of the elite, I don't even have gold weapons lol I do like ganging up on them tho, at least they offer a challenge. Rather be fighting them than pug whacking or PvWall.

And ZOS are still actively nerfing the leet. Where you think all the snares came from? ZOS said it was so noobs could land hits when they first come to PvP.

Hyssia

@perde @Etaniel

hue hue

Leandor

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Bants.

It's not that bad. PvP has been worse, beginning of TG was horrendous. I'm not one of the elite, I don't even have gold weapons lol I do like ganging up on them tho, at least they offer a challenge. Rather be fighting them than pug whacking or PvWall.

And ZOS are still actively nerfing the leet. Where you think all the snares came from? ZOS said it was so noobs could land hits when they first come to PvP.

I never spoke about or criticized mechanics. As I said any and all mechanics changes will always benefit the "elite" most.

Etaniel

Leandor wrote: »

We as a community have fostered an attitude of unsportsmanship that is by now inherent and irrevocable. You see that anytime you visit cyrodiil.
[...]
A few examples:
- a certain stamina templar that tied for win in a recent 1v1 tournament (Aldmeri) running together with a few blues (amongst them a certain dk o his stamina nightblade alt with a name very similar to the famous champignon mushroom) to get the red scroll, running peacefully alongside, just to "troll reds".

[...]
The problem in this game are the players and only the players. It is sad to realize that. I hope you guys I named here see the point in what I have written, but most probably you will only reply "l2p" as usual.

I've always said this game's biggest problem is the players, I guess we don't agree on which players and why.

If you were blue I'd understand why you'd be pissed that we trolled with a scroll, but since it was your scroll, and we held it until it reset to your base, I don't see the pb? Maybe it didn't reset when we took it the second time, I logged before but it was still in our hands when I left.

We actually took the scroll to trigger fights in random places between the three factions, which worked very well on our first attempt. There was a crazy brawl, non laggy and I dare say fun for everyone for about 20-25 min east of Brk mine. More fun imo than the usual siege/defense and zerging that this game offers 24/7. Sorry for bringing a bit of change and unexpected fun

InvitationNotFound

hey, at least you managed to get a response from the people you just mentioned in your original post

Leandor

Etaniel wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

We as a community have fostered an attitude of unsportsmanship that is by now inherent and irrevocable. You see that anytime you visit cyrodiil.
[...]
A few examples:
- a certain stamina templar that tied for win in a recent 1v1 tournament (Aldmeri) running together with a few blues (amongst them a certain dk o his stamina nightblade alt with a name very similar to the famous champignon mushroom) to get the red scroll, running peacefully alongside, just to "troll reds".

[...]
The problem in this game are the players and only the players. It is sad to realize that. I hope you guys I named here see the point in what I have written, but most probably you will only reply "l2p" as usual.

I've always said this game's biggest problem is the players, I guess we don't agree on which players and why.

If you were blue I'd understand why you'd be pissed that we trolled with a scroll, but since it was your scroll, and we held it until it reset to your base, I don't see the pb? Maybe it didn't reset when we took it the second time, I logged before but it was still in our hands when I left.

We actually took the scroll to trigger fights in random places between the three factions, which worked very well on our first attempt. There was a crazy brawl, non laggy and I dare say fun for everyone for about 20-25 min east of Brk mine. More fun imo than the usual siege/defense and zerging that this game offers 24/7. Sorry for bringing a bit of change and unexpected fun

Thanks for a decent and well reasoned answer. I do agree with the intent, but not with the means.

I am very sure you can imagine what that stunt did to /zone and the very few players online at the time. What is fun for you, isn't necessarily fun for everyone else.

Your deed was kicking the dog that already was licking its wounds. If you're tagteamed all the time, it wears you down. That means even more reds on ebony switch sides or campaigns. We are thinking of doing it as well.

Player behaviour like this is what generates the DE or prootch reaction. Player behaviour like this is what generates buff campaigns. Player behaviour like this triggers stunts like nightcapping all map red by "exploiting" into inner keeps.

What do you gain if all that remains is some scrubs in one faction? How about instead of doing what you did, you relog on your red toon with a couple of your friends and help reds to get their feet back on the ground?

That would make much more sense than griefing a faction that by now is depleted of any good, organized guild.

WillhelmBlack

I log off when I'm not having fun.

Lollapalosaa

I did like the fights around the scroll east of brk yesterday. Exactly like said above, it brought variety to the common fights. Most of the campaigns are overrun by DC, but I still believe this will balance out naturally. Secondary but high priority for me is always to play with a faction or in a campaign that is underdog.

Electroheadz

@Leandor I'm sorry but that's how things are here and in real life. That's why You have police, the law, courts etc. If we wouldn't force rules on people this place would go down the s****** within days. You need to enforce limitations and You can't rely solely on human decency not to abuse something just because it is not forbidden.

What about slavery ? What about women having no rights ? That history is not that distant yet. I don't want to go on extremes here but this this should give You a small hint about people. If something is not prohibited majority will do it even if it's the worst thing ever - as long as it gives them some kind of profit or upper hand.

Leandor

Electroheadz wrote: »

@Leandor I'm sorry but that's how things are here and in real life. That's why You have police, the law, courts etc. If we wouldn't force rules on people this place would go down the s****** within days. You need to enforce limitations and You can't rely solely on human decency not to abuse something just because it is not forbidden.

What about slavery ? What about women having no rights ? That history is not that distant yet. I don't want to go on extremes here but this this should give You a small hint about people. If something is not prohibited majority will do it even if it's the worst thing ever - as long as it gives them some kind of profit or upper hand.

Please let's not confuse a game with real life. The things you refer to are a whole different league, leaps and bounds away from what we're talking about - a computer game.

Rune_Relic

Leandor wrote: »

Electroheadz wrote: »

@Leandor I'm sorry but that's how things are here and in real life. That's why You have police, the law, courts etc. If we wouldn't force rules on people this place would go down the s****** within days. You need to enforce limitations and You can't rely solely on human decency not to abuse something just because it is not forbidden.

What about slavery ? What about women having no rights ? That history is not that distant yet. I don't want to go on extremes here but this this should give You a small hint about people. If something is not prohibited majority will do it even if it's the worst thing ever - as long as it gives them some kind of profit or upper hand.

Please let's not confuse a game with real life. The things you refer to are a whole different league, leaps and bounds away from what we're talking about - a computer game.

Maybe extreme...but they have a point. Hyper competitive people aren't interested into fair play...only dominance.

I was joking about player handicaps a few days ago.
Now I am wondering if they wouldn't be such a bad idea to bring the elite back down to earth.
They could at least brag about the size of their handicap as some kind of status symbol.
While the rest of us actually get a good level of parity.

Hell give them a handicap league table and a couple of cookies to go with it.

kuro-dono

its sad story, but in this game players have way too much power and zeni has its whole fist in his mouth wondering wtf to do.

Etaniel

Leandor wrote: »

I am very sure you can imagine what that stunt did to /zone and the very few players online at the time. What is fun for you, isn't necessarily fun for everyone else.

Your deed was kicking the dog that already was licking its wounds. If you're tagteamed all the time, it wears you down. That means even more reds on ebony switch sides or campaigns. We are thinking of doing it as well.

Player behaviour like this is what generates the DE or prootch reaction. Player behaviour like this is what generates buff campaigns. Player behaviour like this triggers stunts like nightcapping all map red by "exploiting" into inner keeps.

What do you gain if all that remains is some scrubs in one faction? How about instead of doing what you did, you relog on your red toon with a couple of your friends and help reds to get their feet back on the ground?

That would make much more sense than griefing a faction that by now is depleted of any good, organized guild.

Trust me, if I had a red toon I'd be playing there, being part of DC sucks big time nowadays.

Leandor

Etaniel wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I am very sure you can imagine what that stunt did to /zone and the very few players online at the time. What is fun for you, isn't necessarily fun for everyone else.

Your deed was kicking the dog that already was licking its wounds. If you're tagteamed all the time, it wears you down. That means even more reds on ebony switch sides or campaigns. We are thinking of doing it as well.

Player behaviour like this is what generates the DE or prootch reaction. Player behaviour like this is what generates buff campaigns. Player behaviour like this triggers stunts like nightcapping all map red by "exploiting" into inner keeps.

What do you gain if all that remains is some scrubs in one faction? How about instead of doing what you did, you relog on your red toon with a couple of your friends and help reds to get their feet back on the ground?

That would make much more sense than griefing a faction that by now is depleted of any good, organized guild.

Trust me, if I had a red toon I'd be playing there, being part of DC sucks big time nowadays.

Well, reroll

Thanks for being serious and honest on this topic, though. Leaps and bounds more adult behaviour than others that have replied here.

But stopping this discussion on one specific issue and go back to a more wider view of things, point in case: we as players have to change.

Turelus

Etaniel wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I am very sure you can imagine what that stunt did to /zone and the very few players online at the time. What is fun for you, isn't necessarily fun for everyone else.

Your deed was kicking the dog that already was licking its wounds. If you're tagteamed all the time, it wears you down. That means even more reds on ebony switch sides or campaigns. We are thinking of doing it as well.

Player behaviour like this is what generates the DE or prootch reaction. Player behaviour like this is what generates buff campaigns. Player behaviour like this triggers stunts like nightcapping all map red by "exploiting" into inner keeps.

What do you gain if all that remains is some scrubs in one faction? How about instead of doing what you did, you relog on your red toon with a couple of your friends and help reds to get their feet back on the ground?

That would make much more sense than griefing a faction that by now is depleted of any good, organized guild.

Trust me, if I had a red toon different game I'd be playing there, being part of DC ESO sucks big time nowadays.

FTFY.

Minno

Turelus wrote: »

While I do feel good players who spend the time to learn mechanics, or players with a natural skill should hold some advantage I do think we have a community which is backwards here.

In other gaming communities i have been part of the elite as you call them tend to share their knowledge and help bring others to their level to have more enjoyable fights. Players who are not able the understand the advanced mechanics themselves join groups with leaders who can explain them and help players move towards being better.

Here however it seems to be a situation where the elite as you call them want to lord over everyone with their skill, they need to be the best and let everyone know that. The community for this game is sadly one of the most toxic and egotistical I have ever been part of, there are great people here but sadly the impressions of the egos tend to stick out more.

The last time I shared Templar "secrets" to help others via the forums, ZOS nerfed templars purifying ritual.

Flipside argument:
- don't expect new info to flow easily as a new player. Join a guild, fight daily, have fun and make friends. This will strengthen faction bondness and people will share info between friends.

Even some of the "ego" players will help if you start a conversation without "cheater. WB noob".

Sallington

Leandor wrote: »

Q.E.D.

Thanks for proving my point. This is not about me being a worse player than someone else. I know that and I have no problem whatsoever with it.

You are part of exactly what I am criticizing there and you react exctly the way I expected you to. A L2P comment.

/golfclap

So are you just sad that you're not as good as some people? I'm trying to grasp the point of this thread?

Also, Cyrodil itself hasn't changed in over 2 years, and is the closest thing we have to a sandbox. People are going to make their own fun from time to time. Be thankful that we have the opportunity and freedom in 1 part of the game to do that.

Sallington

duplicate post error error error

bitaken

Leandor wrote: »

Q.E.D.

Thanks for proving my point. This is not about me being a worse player than someone else. I know that and I have no problem whatsoever with it.

You are part of exactly what I am criticizing there and you react exctly the way I expected you to. A L2P comment.

/golfclap

My comment was to practice, and to work on your skills. If you want to say that's a L2P comment - fine - but maybe there is something to that on your own end.

My guild takes just about anybody who will LISTEN and LEARN and we teach them how we fight. Some will and some won't - the trick is identify who will listen and who is too obstinate and personally gratifying to stop and see how it is a group of 8-12 people can fight 30 + and regularly win. It's not about gear - It's not about "I ani cancel so fast YO!!!" it's not about "We rox you sux scrublings!" It's about team play - focus and builds that effect the team. It's about when a second templar joins the group making sure the templars are not overlaying skills of zero stacked value - making sure each person knows their role - making sure each person is willing to perform their role and take constructive criticism.

There are PLENTY of people posting workable builds and 1vX stuff all day long - but getting into a group of people willing to fight one way - with one mind set - and working builds that make sense to that particular mind set and fighting style.....well there is success.

You wanted advice? I just gave it all up to you. All you need to know right there.

Etaniel

Sallington wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Q.E.D.

Thanks for proving my point. This is not about me being a worse player than someone else. I know that and I have no problem whatsoever with it.

You are part of exactly what I am criticizing there and you react exctly the way I expected you to. A L2P comment.

/golfclap

So are you just sad that you're not as good as some people? I'm trying to grasp the point of this thread?

It's not about player skill, I agree with him for the most part, having a faction gatecamp with a full raid and an emperor against a couple pugs is incredibly destructive to a healthy pvp environment.

Leandor wrote: »

Thanks for being serious and honest on this topic, though. Leaps and bounds more adult behaviour than others that have replied here.

But stopping this discussion on one specific issue and go back to a more wider view of things, point in case: we as players have to change.

In all honesty I doubt a 4 man group (5 if you count the ad we didn't kill because he was so far away from home) trolling with a scroll is as bad as you make it sound. Definitely not on the level of gate camping or nightcapping.
Especially considering the size of our group : if a random sees us stealing that scroll, he'll be more interested to motivate a few friends in chasing us and attempting to capture it back than if he'd seen a full raid grabbing it.

I see your point that we were beating on an already wounded animal, but both EP and DC had medium population at that time. Considering we didn't bring our whole faction, you guys had a fair chance of stopping us I'd say. And we weren't interested in PvDooring the yellows

Leandor

Etaniel wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Thanks for being serious and honest on this topic, though. Leaps and bounds more adult behaviour than others that have replied here.

But stopping this discussion on one specific issue and go back to a more wider view of things, point in case: we as players have to change.

In all honesty I doubt a 4 man group (5 if you count the ad we didn't kill because he was so far away from home) trolling with a scroll is as bad as you make it sound. Definitely not on the level of gate camping or nightcapping.
Especially considering the size of our group : if a random sees us stealing that scroll, he'll be more interested to motivate a few friends in chasing us and attempting to capture it back than if he'd seen a full raid grabbing it.

I see your point that we were beating on an already wounded animal, but both EP and DC had medium population at that time. Considering we didn't bring our whole faction, you guys had a fair chance of stopping us I'd say. And we weren't interested in PvDooring the yellows

Well, I have long since been curious where those reds that bring us up to medium pop are actually hiding, but that is a separate issue.

And as to group size: we are not the best but we are decently good. We also managed to defend a keep against maybe 15 blues successfully with 4 people or cap ash against 8 or so blues (funny enough, one of those was the emp) with 5 of us. You guys have played together and trained for a lot longer and individually are probably a lot better than us.

Number of people of course does not really matter that much, does it? I went there, saw who was there, tried once a few times and predictably failed spectacularly. Then I logged off.

Minno

Etaniel wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I am very sure you can imagine what that stunt did to /zone and the very few players online at the time. What is fun for you, isn't necessarily fun for everyone else.

Your deed was kicking the dog that already was licking its wounds. If you're tagteamed all the time, it wears you down. That means even more reds on ebony switch sides or campaigns. We are thinking of doing it as well.

Player behaviour like this is what generates the DE or prootch reaction. Player behaviour like this is what generates buff campaigns. Player behaviour like this triggers stunts like nightcapping all map red by "exploiting" into inner keeps.

What do you gain if all that remains is some scrubs in one faction? How about instead of doing what you did, you relog on your red toon with a couple of your friends and help reds to get their feet back on the ground?

That would make much more sense than griefing a faction that by now is depleted of any good, organized guild.

Trust me, if I had a red toon I'd be playing there, being part of DC sucks big time nowadays.

Join me and @RinaldoGandolphi! Usually it's just 2dk's and my sorry-ass templar trying to take on more than we can chew (though we picked up a pocket healer!). Sometimes we help at defense and gank reinforcement lanes. But we keep it real; no drama except bombard-spama.

Lokey0024

Just take solace in the fact that most the "elite" players will be playing with themselves soon enough. Noone likes getting repeatedly smashed with no chance to fight back, so people will just abandon pvp and play pve or just quit altogether.

My whole clan did on ps4 because we like competitive pvp, and when playing against PC transfers you had no chance of they had 200+ CP or more before any of us could even GET CP. It evened out now, but no one came back except maybe 2 or 3 including myself.
Giggity

HeroOfNone

I'll rant s little about folks that seem to think that Cyrodiil is a 1v1 or small group fighting arenas it's not, it's open warfare.

If you get zerged then be pissed off there is no small scale alternative (hint @ZOS hint) but stop hating on the players for it. Folks are trying to take keeps and landmarks, not deal with your 1v1 dueling you put right in the middle of an active war zone path. Get a clue and move you dueling to an unused PVE area.

On top of that unless you challenged my friends to a duel before hand stop with the salty tells when we double, triple, etc team you or your group. Sorry my support build ruined your plan to stealth away and that my debuffs reduced your armor and healing enough for a buddy to come up and finish the job. That's kind of the point though; working in a group that compliments each other and making sure a ganker isn't denying us reinforcements on the front line.

Also, stop with the cry baby "talentless scrub" stuff. If you're playing with full gold gear, top level CP, and working with the meta damage build of the current patch, are you really that talented? Or are you crying because your over advantage still couldn't let you walk like an invincible god to AP farm for all the gold you spent?

---

As for the OP's post, the big issue I see there that I wish @ZOS would address is the meta faction farming for Emperorship and scroll delivering. Both ruin the meta for the game, but sadly I don't know what can be done. Maybe reduced AP gain for kills on the same account that excess an amount in an hour? Maybe something to vote return scrolls from folks on your faction? Not sure, but certainly annoying.