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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers
-
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...
What's even scarier is that ZOS is still attempting to band-aid fix the problems, that we warned them they would create in that thread. Proxy Det and Vicious Death are some of those band-aid fixes that have only made the problems worse.
Shield stacking absolutely needs to go. However, this "fix" won't do anything stop it, and will only make the PvP shield stackers stronger while hurting Magic Sorcs in other areas of the game.
I don't feel that shield stacking is such as issue as lack of tools for stam builds to take down the shields is. There's 1 set designed to take down a Sorc, 1 set and this game has been out since 2014. Shields aren't critable, another issue in many people's eyes. Most if not all the complaints are from the pvp community. Shields already got nerfed by 50% so let's make shields take 50% of the crit damage or make a have elemental damage type that they are weak against like shock? No one ever uses shock enchants on their weapons in pvp that that would give them a purpose.
Shield stacking is a huge issue. I'm perfectly fine with ZOS normalizing Hardened Ward, Bone Shield and Harness Magicka to handle both magic and physical damage, but these shields should never be able to be used together. My preferred system for handling shields would be to make those three Major Wards, then make every other ward in game a Minor Ward, while Barrier remains unchanged due to being an ultimate. When you apply a Major Ward it will always replace your current Major Ward, and Minor Ward Priority would always be Blazing Shield, Healing Ward, then any other ward using whichever is stronger over a current weaker ward. This system would severely reduce shield stacking while ensuring shields that are more utility based (Blazing Shield, Healing Ward) can still be used.
I'm sorry but from a guy who plays stamblade, magblade, stam Sorc, mag Sorc and, stam dk I don't see the issue you and many other people are having with the stacking.
That´s because you´re playing the two magica classes with the possibility to break a hardened + harness + healingward stack.
Templar and DK as magica spec are sustain dmg oriented + melee and effectively not able to break stacking (or should not be without errors on the sorcs part - for templar it´s more a design issue with having to hardcast darkflare).
I have maybe lost three or four fights to mag templar and DK combined since patch 1.6 went live and every time i basically bend myself over asking for a pounding.
There is no way for a templar or magica DK to get any control over a tripplestacking sorc because they lack the ability to deliver their dmg reliably.
It´s partially a problem with shieldstacking and partially with magica melee design. However it´s far too easy in my opinion to just stay alive pushing two buttons for shields and it will become easier vs stam builds which isn´t desireable.
stamblade, magblade, stam Sorc, mag Sorc and, stam dk.
I play 5 different classes out of the 5 the hardest for me to knock down a mag Sorc is with my stam Sorc and my mag Sorc. One of my good friends and guild mate is a stam dk and can knock out a fully shielded Sorc in a few shots. His guy is built to take down shielded enemies with ease as he hates magicka sorcs and magicka nightblades.
Learn
to
read.
Shieldstacking isn´t an issue for stamina builds to the same extend it is for magica builds because they never had to fight through three shields. That´s why your expertise on stamsorc stamblade stamdk is basically of no relevance to the argument you´re making and i´ve ignored that (stamsorc is just not that good in general so it´s natural you´re having issues there).
So yeah. You play the two magica classes that can take down shieldstackers (true stacking not that pathetic two shield nonsense bad stamina players whine about).
Also great anecdote on your stam DK friend. So he´s playing the obvious counter to magica sorc and can take them head on? Astounding.
Not all stam builds need shield breaker.
And the connection to what i wrote is - where exactly?
Could you possibly point that out for me or was it just a random proclamation: "Hear me words heathens! Not all stam builds need shieldbreaker!"
Why would you quote me then?
I don´t really understand what you want to say.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Rakkul✭✭✭@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...
What's even scarier is that ZOS is still attempting to band-aid fix the problems, that we warned them they would create in that thread. Proxy Det and Vicious Death are some of those band-aid fixes that have only made the problems worse.
Shield stacking absolutely needs to go. However, this "fix" won't do anything stop it, and will only make the PvP shield stackers stronger while hurting Magic Sorcs in other areas of the game.
I don't feel that shield stacking is such as issue as lack of tools for stam builds to take down the shields is. There's 1 set designed to take down a Sorc, 1 set and this game has been out since 2014. Shields aren't critable, another issue in many people's eyes. Most if not all the complaints are from the pvp community. Shields already got nerfed by 50% so let's make shields take 50% of the crit damage or make a have elemental damage type that they are weak against like shock? No one ever uses shock enchants on their weapons in pvp that that would give them a purpose.
Shield stacking is a huge issue. I'm perfectly fine with ZOS normalizing Hardened Ward, Bone Shield and Harness Magicka to handle both magic and physical damage, but these shields should never be able to be used together. My preferred system for handling shields would be to make those three Major Wards, then make every other ward in game a Minor Ward, while Barrier remains unchanged due to being an ultimate. When you apply a Major Ward it will always replace your current Major Ward, and Minor Ward Priority would always be Blazing Shield, Healing Ward, then any other ward using whichever is stronger over a current weaker ward. This system would severely reduce shield stacking while ensuring shields that are more utility based (Blazing Shield, Healing Ward) can still be used.
I'm sorry but from a guy who plays stamblade, magblade, stam Sorc, mag Sorc and, stam dk I don't see the issue you and many other people are having with the stacking.
Shield stacking an issue in PvP.
Not really.
It is and that is why its being heavily nerfed. Powerful shields with long duration that can be stacked to protect against absurd amounts of damage does get a little bit ridiculous... Now to maintain that same level of protection you will need to spend more of your resources or activate those abilities when you really need them.
They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The Shields didn't last the duration in pvp with the heavy damage coming in. Sorc's habitually refreshed them every few seconds.
So what will change now then?
Before - Sorcs refreshing shields every few seconds. After - Sorce refreshing shields every few seconds + other classes refreshing shields.
This hasn't removed shield stacking, it's added to the number of shields in pvp.
I agree, the change to shielding does not solve the issues with shield stacking. Actually, by empowering Annulment further this changes likely make shield stacking even more powerful in PvP.
Unfortunately Sorcerers were in trouble before the nerfs to ward and this is a sorcerer feedback thread, not a shield feedback thread. What we need to ask Zenimax is for fixes where the class is simply too weak, not for a reversal to a nerf that would not fix the problem. The changes made to the Negate morphs are a step in the right direction if the damage and heal granted are actually significant as it will finally give us back a utility ultimate that may be useful for raiding, but that alone won't do it.
That Daedric Curse and its morphs were nerfed by no longer being affected by Thaumaturge is quite a problem. Sorcerer DPS is already weak and nerfs to any of our damage skills is an insult, specially when no damage buffs were given to other skills (I am ignoring the damage buff to Negate as we are far more likely to use the healing morph as it is our most utilitarian ultimate).
Again, what we need to be asking Zenimax isn't just for a reversal to the changes made to Ward because that alone will not fix this class.
+12 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...
What's even scarier is that ZOS is still attempting to band-aid fix the problems, that we warned them they would create in that thread. Proxy Det and Vicious Death are some of those band-aid fixes that have only made the problems worse.
Shield stacking absolutely needs to go. However, this "fix" won't do anything stop it, and will only make the PvP shield stackers stronger while hurting Magic Sorcs in other areas of the game.
I don't feel that shield stacking is such as issue as lack of tools for stam builds to take down the shields is. There's 1 set designed to take down a Sorc, 1 set and this game has been out since 2014. Shields aren't critable, another issue in many people's eyes. Most if not all the complaints are from the pvp community. Shields already got nerfed by 50% so let's make shields take 50% of the crit damage or make a have elemental damage type that they are weak against like shock? No one ever uses shock enchants on their weapons in pvp that that would give them a purpose.
Shield stacking is a huge issue. I'm perfectly fine with ZOS normalizing Hardened Ward, Bone Shield and Harness Magicka to handle both magic and physical damage, but these shields should never be able to be used together. My preferred system for handling shields would be to make those three Major Wards, then make every other ward in game a Minor Ward, while Barrier remains unchanged due to being an ultimate. When you apply a Major Ward it will always replace your current Major Ward, and Minor Ward Priority would always be Blazing Shield, Healing Ward, then any other ward using whichever is stronger over a current weaker ward. This system would severely reduce shield stacking while ensuring shields that are more utility based (Blazing Shield, Healing Ward) can still be used.
I'm sorry but from a guy who plays stamblade, magblade, stam Sorc, mag Sorc and, stam dk I don't see the issue you and many other people are having with the stacking.
Shield stacking an issue in PvP.
Not really.
It is and that is why its being heavily nerfed. Powerful shields with long duration that can be stacked to protect against absurd amounts of damage does get a little bit ridiculous... Now to maintain that same level of protection you will need to spend more of your resources or activate those abilities when you really need them.
They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The Shields didn't last the duration in pvp with the heavy damage coming in. Sorc's habitually refreshed them every few seconds.
So what will change now then?
Before - Sorcs refreshing shields every few seconds. After - Sorce refreshing shields every few seconds + other classes refreshing shields.
This hasn't removed shield stacking, it's added to the number of shields in pvp.
Sorc shields got buffed imo. Whoever waits til the full duration of the shield in trials must be one tanky person or the healer is good enough and they dont even use their shields.
How did the sorc shield get buffed if I may ask? As what they did to the ward certainly seems like a nerf with them only reducing the duration of it with no cost reduction, increasing how big the shield is etc. And no, annulment, bone shield etc are not sorc shields.Edited by cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO on May 7, 2016 5:32PMR.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD1 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...
What's even scarier is that ZOS is still attempting to band-aid fix the problems, that we warned them they would create in that thread. Proxy Det and Vicious Death are some of those band-aid fixes that have only made the problems worse.
Shield stacking absolutely needs to go. However, this "fix" won't do anything stop it, and will only make the PvP shield stackers stronger while hurting Magic Sorcs in other areas of the game.
I don't feel that shield stacking is such as issue as lack of tools for stam builds to take down the shields is. There's 1 set designed to take down a Sorc, 1 set and this game has been out since 2014. Shields aren't critable, another issue in many people's eyes. Most if not all the complaints are from the pvp community. Shields already got nerfed by 50% so let's make shields take 50% of the crit damage or make a have elemental damage type that they are weak against like shock? No one ever uses shock enchants on their weapons in pvp that that would give them a purpose.
Shield stacking is a huge issue. I'm perfectly fine with ZOS normalizing Hardened Ward, Bone Shield and Harness Magicka to handle both magic and physical damage, but these shields should never be able to be used together. My preferred system for handling shields would be to make those three Major Wards, then make every other ward in game a Minor Ward, while Barrier remains unchanged due to being an ultimate. When you apply a Major Ward it will always replace your current Major Ward, and Minor Ward Priority would always be Blazing Shield, Healing Ward, then any other ward using whichever is stronger over a current weaker ward. This system would severely reduce shield stacking while ensuring shields that are more utility based (Blazing Shield, Healing Ward) can still be used.
I'm sorry but from a guy who plays stamblade, magblade, stam Sorc, mag Sorc and, stam dk I don't see the issue you and many other people are having with the stacking.
Shield stacking an issue in PvP.
Not really.
It is and that is why its being heavily nerfed. Powerful shields with long duration that can be stacked to protect against absurd amounts of damage does get a little bit ridiculous... Now to maintain that same level of protection you will need to spend more of your resources or activate those abilities when you really need them.
They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The Shields didn't last the duration in pvp with the heavy damage coming in. Sorc's habitually refreshed them every few seconds.
So what will change now then?
Before - Sorcs refreshing shields every few seconds. After - Sorce refreshing shields every few seconds + other classes refreshing shields.
This hasn't removed shield stacking, it's added to the number of shields in pvp.
Sorc shields got buffed imo. Whoever waits til the full duration of the shield in trials must be one tanky person or the healer is good enough and they dont even use their shields.
How did the sorc shield get buffed if I may ask? As what they did to the ward certainly seems like a nerf with them only reducing the duration of it with no cost reduction, increasing how big the shield is etc. And no, annulment, bone shield etc are not sorc shields.
Shield stacking got buffed due to the Annulment buff. Magic Sorcs are the only class that can effectively sheild stack. With all of the shield changes Sorcs net a PvP buff and a PvE nerf, and the problem they intended to fix has only gotten worse.0 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...
What's even scarier is that ZOS is still attempting to band-aid fix the problems, that we warned them they would create in that thread. Proxy Det and Vicious Death are some of those band-aid fixes that have only made the problems worse.
Shield stacking absolutely needs to go. However, this "fix" won't do anything stop it, and will only make the PvP shield stackers stronger while hurting Magic Sorcs in other areas of the game.
I don't feel that shield stacking is such as issue as lack of tools for stam builds to take down the shields is. There's 1 set designed to take down a Sorc, 1 set and this game has been out since 2014. Shields aren't critable, another issue in many people's eyes. Most if not all the complaints are from the pvp community. Shields already got nerfed by 50% so let's make shields take 50% of the crit damage or make a have elemental damage type that they are weak against like shock? No one ever uses shock enchants on their weapons in pvp that that would give them a purpose.
Shield stacking is a huge issue. I'm perfectly fine with ZOS normalizing Hardened Ward, Bone Shield and Harness Magicka to handle both magic and physical damage, but these shields should never be able to be used together. My preferred system for handling shields would be to make those three Major Wards, then make every other ward in game a Minor Ward, while Barrier remains unchanged due to being an ultimate. When you apply a Major Ward it will always replace your current Major Ward, and Minor Ward Priority would always be Blazing Shield, Healing Ward, then any other ward using whichever is stronger over a current weaker ward. This system would severely reduce shield stacking while ensuring shields that are more utility based (Blazing Shield, Healing Ward) can still be used.
I'm sorry but from a guy who plays stamblade, magblade, stam Sorc, mag Sorc and, stam dk I don't see the issue you and many other people are having with the stacking.
Shield stacking an issue in PvP.
Not really.
It is and that is why its being heavily nerfed. Powerful shields with long duration that can be stacked to protect against absurd amounts of damage does get a little bit ridiculous... Now to maintain that same level of protection you will need to spend more of your resources or activate those abilities when you really need them.
They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The Shields didn't last the duration in pvp with the heavy damage coming in. Sorc's habitually refreshed them every few seconds.
So what will change now then?
Before - Sorcs refreshing shields every few seconds. After - Sorce refreshing shields every few seconds + other classes refreshing shields.
This hasn't removed shield stacking, it's added to the number of shields in pvp.
Sorc shields got buffed imo. Whoever waits til the full duration of the shield in trials must be one tanky person or the healer is good enough and they dont even use their shields.
How did the sorc shield get buffed if I may ask? As what they did to the ward certainly seems like a nerf with them only reducing the duration of it with no cost reduction, increasing how big the shield is etc. And no, annulment, bone shield etc are not sorc shields.
Shield stacking got buffed due to the Annulment buff. Magic Sorcs are the only class that can effectively sheild stack. With all of the shield changes Sorcs net a PvP buff and a PvE nerf, and the problem they intended to fix has only gotten worse.
He specifically mentioned sorc shields though, and that one is hardened ward, and I've not seen a buff to that one.R.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD3 -
jknight201✭✭✭I mostly agree with you, sorcerers are indeed the weakest class in PvE and have been so for quite some time now. Our DPS with both stamina and magicka builds is the lowest and at the same time we provide nearly no utility to a raid group, which in turn makes sorcerers less than desirable in competitive groups. At the same time we are not exceptional healers as our main healing skill is the active of a pet that dies if an enemy breaths in its general direction. As for Tanking, it used to be a funny alternative, but with reductions to our shielding, it will most likely be nonviable.
What I said about 'giving it a rest' was aimed to keep this a productive discussion instead of letting it sour into a endless list of posts complaining about a nerf to shields that will not be reverted. At best they will increase the shields duration to 10-12 seconds which will not fix the issues with this class. We need to give ZoS a more general feedback that goes beyond 'We don't like this change', 'We don't think this will fix the shield stacking on PvP', etc. That was all made very clear already.
The problem with trying to keep this discussion productive is that the DB patch is just yet another hit to a sorc build. It's hard to give good feedback because, while there are a few big problems with the sorc class, there are a HUGE number of small problems. Sorcs have been killed with death-by-1000-cuts from all the little changes as much as being finished off by a few big ones.
How do you even advocate for getting that fixed? With each patch Zenimax keeps adding problems and rarely (or never) fixes any of the problems they already created. With each update, people complain but they also offer up alternatives that would make for a better change or better play balancing. People offer up "you know you're damaging this niche build". Is this feedback used? Not that I can see. How long did it take for any change to be made to WB? Even though it seriously hurts the PVP experience because you get unskilled DKs just spamming it over and over... and it works! The "fix" still doesn't really solve the problem.
And yes, it's already to the point of competitive groups limiting the number of sorc toons they will accept in groups because they are essentially dead weight. It takes a good/excellent sorc player to be as useful as a mediocre Templar or DK player. Zenimax has to know this, yet not only have they done nothing about it... they keep nerfing the class!
That's why I said that ultimately it's going to come down to: do you want to put the effort into building another character or just abandon the game? With the rumors that the >next< update will allow race but not class changes, it would seem that Zenimax wants people who have a significant investment in the sorc class to simply abandon the game. Zenimax needs to realize that this is not the only, or even the best, MMO out there and once people leave they tend to never come back.2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...
What's even scarier is that ZOS is still attempting to band-aid fix the problems, that we warned them they would create in that thread. Proxy Det and Vicious Death are some of those band-aid fixes that have only made the problems worse.
Shield stacking absolutely needs to go. However, this "fix" won't do anything stop it, and will only make the PvP shield stackers stronger while hurting Magic Sorcs in other areas of the game.
I don't feel that shield stacking is such as issue as lack of tools for stam builds to take down the shields is. There's 1 set designed to take down a Sorc, 1 set and this game has been out since 2014. Shields aren't critable, another issue in many people's eyes. Most if not all the complaints are from the pvp community. Shields already got nerfed by 50% so let's make shields take 50% of the crit damage or make a have elemental damage type that they are weak against like shock? No one ever uses shock enchants on their weapons in pvp that that would give them a purpose.
Shield stacking is a huge issue. I'm perfectly fine with ZOS normalizing Hardened Ward, Bone Shield and Harness Magicka to handle both magic and physical damage, but these shields should never be able to be used together. My preferred system for handling shields would be to make those three Major Wards, then make every other ward in game a Minor Ward, while Barrier remains unchanged due to being an ultimate. When you apply a Major Ward it will always replace your current Major Ward, and Minor Ward Priority would always be Blazing Shield, Healing Ward, then any other ward using whichever is stronger over a current weaker ward. This system would severely reduce shield stacking while ensuring shields that are more utility based (Blazing Shield, Healing Ward) can still be used.
I'm sorry but from a guy who plays stamblade, magblade, stam Sorc, mag Sorc and, stam dk I don't see the issue you and many other people are having with the stacking.
Shield stacking an issue in PvP.
Not really.
It is and that is why its being heavily nerfed. Powerful shields with long duration that can be stacked to protect against absurd amounts of damage does get a little bit ridiculous... Now to maintain that same level of protection you will need to spend more of your resources or activate those abilities when you really need them.
They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The Shields didn't last the duration in pvp with the heavy damage coming in. Sorc's habitually refreshed them every few seconds.
So what will change now then?
Before - Sorcs refreshing shields every few seconds. After - Sorce refreshing shields every few seconds + other classes refreshing shields.
This hasn't removed shield stacking, it's added to the number of shields in pvp.
Sorc shields got buffed imo. Whoever waits til the full duration of the shield in trials must be one tanky person or the healer is good enough and they dont even use their shields.
How did the sorc shield get buffed if I may ask? As what they did to the ward certainly seems like a nerf with them only reducing the duration of it with no cost reduction, increasing how big the shield is etc. And no, annulment, bone shield etc are not sorc shields.
Shield stacking got buffed due to the Annulment buff. Magic Sorcs are the only class that can effectively sheild stack. With all of the shield changes Sorcs net a PvP buff and a PvE nerf, and the problem they intended to fix has only gotten worse.
I challenge the statement of 6s shields absorbing all dmg being a pvp buff.
For sorcs only utilizing hardened the change is a hefty nerf. As it is for pvp petbuilds. It´s a nerf in about every situation except for facetanking multiple people (with stam builds amongst them).
Of course if that is what you feel is representative for sorc pvp - then you might interpret the changes as a buff in general.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...
What's even scarier is that ZOS is still attempting to band-aid fix the problems, that we warned them they would create in that thread. Proxy Det and Vicious Death are some of those band-aid fixes that have only made the problems worse.
Shield stacking absolutely needs to go. However, this "fix" won't do anything stop it, and will only make the PvP shield stackers stronger while hurting Magic Sorcs in other areas of the game.
I don't feel that shield stacking is such as issue as lack of tools for stam builds to take down the shields is. There's 1 set designed to take down a Sorc, 1 set and this game has been out since 2014. Shields aren't critable, another issue in many people's eyes. Most if not all the complaints are from the pvp community. Shields already got nerfed by 50% so let's make shields take 50% of the crit damage or make a have elemental damage type that they are weak against like shock? No one ever uses shock enchants on their weapons in pvp that that would give them a purpose.
Shield stacking is a huge issue. I'm perfectly fine with ZOS normalizing Hardened Ward, Bone Shield and Harness Magicka to handle both magic and physical damage, but these shields should never be able to be used together. My preferred system for handling shields would be to make those three Major Wards, then make every other ward in game a Minor Ward, while Barrier remains unchanged due to being an ultimate. When you apply a Major Ward it will always replace your current Major Ward, and Minor Ward Priority would always be Blazing Shield, Healing Ward, then any other ward using whichever is stronger over a current weaker ward. This system would severely reduce shield stacking while ensuring shields that are more utility based (Blazing Shield, Healing Ward) can still be used.
I'm sorry but from a guy who plays stamblade, magblade, stam Sorc, mag Sorc and, stam dk I don't see the issue you and many other people are having with the stacking.
Shield stacking an issue in PvP.
Not really.
It is and that is why its being heavily nerfed. Powerful shields with long duration that can be stacked to protect against absurd amounts of damage does get a little bit ridiculous... Now to maintain that same level of protection you will need to spend more of your resources or activate those abilities when you really need them.
They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The Shields didn't last the duration in pvp with the heavy damage coming in. Sorc's habitually refreshed them every few seconds.
So what will change now then?
Before - Sorcs refreshing shields every few seconds. After - Sorce refreshing shields every few seconds + other classes refreshing shields.
This hasn't removed shield stacking, it's added to the number of shields in pvp.
Sorc shields got buffed imo. Whoever waits til the full duration of the shield in trials must be one tanky person or the healer is good enough and they dont even use their shields.
How did the sorc shield get buffed if I may ask? As what they did to the ward certainly seems like a nerf with them only reducing the duration of it with no cost reduction, increasing how big the shield is etc. And no, annulment, bone shield etc are not sorc shields.
Shield stacking got buffed due to the Annulment buff. Magic Sorcs are the only class that can effectively sheild stack. With all of the shield changes Sorcs net a PvP buff and a PvE nerf, and the problem they intended to fix has only gotten worse.
I challenge the statement of 6s shields absorbing all dmg being a pvp buff.
For sorcs only utilizing hardened the change is a hefty nerf. As it is for pvp petbuilds. It´s a nerf in about every situation except for facetanking multiple people (with stam builds amongst them).
Of course if that is what you feel is representative for sorc pvp - then you might interpret the changes as a buff in general.
I was specifically talking about shield stacking, and the vast majority of Magic Sorcs are running a shield stacking build. Unfortunately interesting and unique builds, such as a pet build, always seem to get most of the fallout when ZOS decides to use unintelligent solutions to fix problems.3 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭jknight201 wrote: »I mostly agree with you, sorcerers are indeed the weakest class in PvE and have been so for quite some time now. Our DPS with both stamina and magicka builds is the lowest and at the same time we provide nearly no utility to a raid group, which in turn makes sorcerers less than desirable in competitive groups. At the same time we are not exceptional healers as our main healing skill is the active of a pet that dies if an enemy breaths in its general direction. As for Tanking, it used to be a funny alternative, but with reductions to our shielding, it will most likely be nonviable.
What I said about 'giving it a rest' was aimed to keep this a productive discussion instead of letting it sour into a endless list of posts complaining about a nerf to shields that will not be reverted. At best they will increase the shields duration to 10-12 seconds which will not fix the issues with this class. We need to give ZoS a more general feedback that goes beyond 'We don't like this change', 'We don't think this will fix the shield stacking on PvP', etc. That was all made very clear already.
The problem with trying to keep this discussion productive is that the DB patch is just yet another hit to a sorc build. It's hard to give good feedback because, while there are a few big problems with the sorc class, there are a HUGE number of small problems. Sorcs have been killed with death-by-1000-cuts from all the little changes as much as being finished off by a few big ones.
How do you even advocate for getting that fixed? With each patch Zenimax keeps adding problems and rarely (or never) fixes any of the problems they already created. With each update, people complain but they also offer up alternatives that would make for a better change or better play balancing. People offer up "you know you're damaging this niche build". Is this feedback used? Not that I can see. How long did it take for any change to be made to WB? Even though it seriously hurts the PVP experience because you get unskilled DKs just spamming it over and over... and it works! The "fix" still doesn't really solve the problem.
And yes, it's already to the point of competitive groups limiting the number of sorc toons they will accept in groups because they are essentially dead weight. It takes a good/excellent sorc player to be as useful as a mediocre Templar or DK player. Zenimax has to know this, yet not only have they done nothing about it... they keep nerfing the class!
That's why I said that ultimately it's going to come down to: do you want to put the effort into building another character or just abandon the game? With the rumors that the >next< update will allow race but not class changes, it would seem that Zenimax wants people who have a significant investment in the sorc class to simply abandon the game. Zenimax needs to realize that this is not the only, or even the best, MMO out there and once people leave they tend to never come back.
Oh, I completely agree with you. My frustration at how Zenimax has been treating sorcerers and ignoring the feedback given by sorcerer players for over a year now is the reason I abandoned the game in the first place. I will go even a step further than you and say even an excellent sorcerer will never be as useful as a Templar because Templars, at the end of the day, have a Nova that can save your entire raid. Sorcerers have nothing that is needed. We are often asked to run Warhorn or Barrier as our ultimates as sorcerer ultimates are extremely situational (Negate) or simply a single target DPS boost that puts sorcerer closer to the other classes best DPS performance, but offers nothing to the raid group.
Unfortunately not keeping this discussion healthy and productive just ensures ZoS will simply ignore it, something they are already likely to do anyway.
Things Sorcerers Need:
Single target, instant cast, low cost magicka attack - Melee and ranged for morphs (Please replace useless Dark Conversion for this)
Improvement to pet's survivability or considerable buffs to pet shielding (make pets invulnerable when they are shielded, it only lasts 6 seconds now)
Improve on Atronach. That ultimate is not good as a damage source and it has no utility.
Give back the Clannfear's taunt and make that its active ability please. Clannfears never heal in lore... They are dinossaurs for gods sake.
Make Crystal Blast into a stamina scaling morph with a proc system similar to Crystal Fragmentscosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...
What's even scarier is that ZOS is still attempting to band-aid fix the problems, that we warned them they would create in that thread. Proxy Det and Vicious Death are some of those band-aid fixes that have only made the problems worse.
Shield stacking absolutely needs to go. However, this "fix" won't do anything stop it, and will only make the PvP shield stackers stronger while hurting Magic Sorcs in other areas of the game.
I don't feel that shield stacking is such as issue as lack of tools for stam builds to take down the shields is. There's 1 set designed to take down a Sorc, 1 set and this game has been out since 2014. Shields aren't critable, another issue in many people's eyes. Most if not all the complaints are from the pvp community. Shields already got nerfed by 50% so let's make shields take 50% of the crit damage or make a have elemental damage type that they are weak against like shock? No one ever uses shock enchants on their weapons in pvp that that would give them a purpose.
Shield stacking is a huge issue. I'm perfectly fine with ZOS normalizing Hardened Ward, Bone Shield and Harness Magicka to handle both magic and physical damage, but these shields should never be able to be used together. My preferred system for handling shields would be to make those three Major Wards, then make every other ward in game a Minor Ward, while Barrier remains unchanged due to being an ultimate. When you apply a Major Ward it will always replace your current Major Ward, and Minor Ward Priority would always be Blazing Shield, Healing Ward, then any other ward using whichever is stronger over a current weaker ward. This system would severely reduce shield stacking while ensuring shields that are more utility based (Blazing Shield, Healing Ward) can still be used.
I'm sorry but from a guy who plays stamblade, magblade, stam Sorc, mag Sorc and, stam dk I don't see the issue you and many other people are having with the stacking.
Shield stacking an issue in PvP.
Not really.
It is and that is why its being heavily nerfed. Powerful shields with long duration that can be stacked to protect against absurd amounts of damage does get a little bit ridiculous... Now to maintain that same level of protection you will need to spend more of your resources or activate those abilities when you really need them.
They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The Shields didn't last the duration in pvp with the heavy damage coming in. Sorc's habitually refreshed them every few seconds.
So what will change now then?
Before - Sorcs refreshing shields every few seconds. After - Sorce refreshing shields every few seconds + other classes refreshing shields.
This hasn't removed shield stacking, it's added to the number of shields in pvp.
Sorc shields got buffed imo. Whoever waits til the full duration of the shield in trials must be one tanky person or the healer is good enough and they dont even use their shields.
How did the sorc shield get buffed if I may ask? As what they did to the ward certainly seems like a nerf with them only reducing the duration of it with no cost reduction, increasing how big the shield is etc. And no, annulment, bone shield etc are not sorc shields.
Shield stacking got buffed due to the Annulment buff. Magic Sorcs are the only class that can effectively sheild stack. With all of the shield changes Sorcs net a PvP buff and a PvE nerf, and the problem they intended to fix has only gotten worse.
I challenge the statement of 6s shields absorbing all dmg being a pvp buff.
For sorcs only utilizing hardened the change is a hefty nerf. As it is for pvp petbuilds. It´s a nerf in about every situation except for facetanking multiple people (with stam builds amongst them).
Of course if that is what you feel is representative for sorc pvp - then you might interpret the changes as a buff in general.
The changes may be a buff to Shield Stacking in PvP because the multiple shield stacked never actually last for their full duration in PvP. The buff comes from the change to annulment, an ability that is now very similar to Empowered Ward. We are all very aware the changes to Ward are, on their own, a heavy nerf to Sorcerers, specially in PvE and in PvP pet builds.1 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...
What's even scarier is that ZOS is still attempting to band-aid fix the problems, that we warned them they would create in that thread. Proxy Det and Vicious Death are some of those band-aid fixes that have only made the problems worse.
Shield stacking absolutely needs to go. However, this "fix" won't do anything stop it, and will only make the PvP shield stackers stronger while hurting Magic Sorcs in other areas of the game.
I don't feel that shield stacking is such as issue as lack of tools for stam builds to take down the shields is. There's 1 set designed to take down a Sorc, 1 set and this game has been out since 2014. Shields aren't critable, another issue in many people's eyes. Most if not all the complaints are from the pvp community. Shields already got nerfed by 50% so let's make shields take 50% of the crit damage or make a have elemental damage type that they are weak against like shock? No one ever uses shock enchants on their weapons in pvp that that would give them a purpose.
Shield stacking is a huge issue. I'm perfectly fine with ZOS normalizing Hardened Ward, Bone Shield and Harness Magicka to handle both magic and physical damage, but these shields should never be able to be used together. My preferred system for handling shields would be to make those three Major Wards, then make every other ward in game a Minor Ward, while Barrier remains unchanged due to being an ultimate. When you apply a Major Ward it will always replace your current Major Ward, and Minor Ward Priority would always be Blazing Shield, Healing Ward, then any other ward using whichever is stronger over a current weaker ward. This system would severely reduce shield stacking while ensuring shields that are more utility based (Blazing Shield, Healing Ward) can still be used.
I'm sorry but from a guy who plays stamblade, magblade, stam Sorc, mag Sorc and, stam dk I don't see the issue you and many other people are having with the stacking.
Shield stacking an issue in PvP.
Not really.
It is and that is why its being heavily nerfed. Powerful shields with long duration that can be stacked to protect against absurd amounts of damage does get a little bit ridiculous... Now to maintain that same level of protection you will need to spend more of your resources or activate those abilities when you really need them.
They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The Shields didn't last the duration in pvp with the heavy damage coming in. Sorc's habitually refreshed them every few seconds.
So what will change now then?
Before - Sorcs refreshing shields every few seconds. After - Sorce refreshing shields every few seconds + other classes refreshing shields.
This hasn't removed shield stacking, it's added to the number of shields in pvp.
Before: stun a sorc after four or five seconds and his shields will last through the CC break. PVE content like VMA and pug groups are fun and playable.
After: stun the sorc after four or five seconds and she dies horribly every time. PVE content like vMA sucks to play.
Sorc killing in PVP will be ridiculously easy. It will end our role in some end game content and make pug group dungeons impossible. That's what all of the 'L2P this changes nothing' crowd is missing. It shouldn't be that easy to end an entire class.
Sure there's one way around it, you can refresh shields every three seconds! F*** that. I chose option B. Unsub or reroll a Nightblade like everyone else (or both). The designers of this game are terrible at their jobs.6 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭jknight201 wrote: »They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The sorcerer class has already died. Sorcerers are at the bottom of the DPS scale already. They will fall even farther when what little survivability they had is removed with the next patch. If your group is seriously trying to complete an achievement, like a Trial, why would you want people to bring a sorcerer when many other classes are hugely superior in every way? What can a sorc player offer than another class can't do, only better?
People shouldn't "give it a rest" as there is something some people will do - vote with their wallet/feet. Serious sorcerer players will cancel their Plus subscription and shelve the game, waiting for things to be fixed in a future patch. Zenimax needs to realize that while it's a shame to have wasted a large amount of time in a particular character class, there are many other alternatives to ESO out there - and they risk driving people to them unless they get control of the play-balance issues (not to mention the Cyrodiil lag issues, long-standing bugs, etc.).
I mostly agree with you, sorcerers are indeed the weakest class in PvE and have been so for quite some time now. Our DPS with both stamina and magicka builds is the lowest and at the same time we provide nearly no utility to a raid group, which in turn makes sorcerers less than desirable in competitive groups. At the same time we are not exceptional healers as our main healing skill is the active of a pet that dies if an enemy breaths in its general direction. As for Tanking, it used to be a funny alternative, but with reductions to our shielding, it will most likely be nonviable.
What I said about 'giving it a rest' was aimed to keep this a productive discussion instead of letting it sour into a endless list of posts complaining about a nerf to shields that will not be reverted. At best they will increase the shields duration to 10-12 seconds which will not fix the issues with this class. We need to give ZoS a more general feedback that goes beyond 'We don't like this change', 'We don't think this will fix the shield stacking on PvP', etc. That was all made very clear already.
Well then come up with some suggestions. I already gave my summoning tree work, now lets see what else we can do:
Dark Exchange is useless, and should be replaced with a viable skill, preferably a curse like DoT that deals x damage every y seconds for z seconds to that target player, or with a final explosion or something like that.
Power Surge should not only proc off DoTs (LL specifically), and give a bonus to Spell and Weapon power, but it should also give a Crit Bonus. Critical surge only gives weapon damage, but you take 70% healing from your crits instead and get a lower crib bonus.
Sorcs need a way to get an Empower bonus that is separate from Entropy because that way we can use Power Surge. Alternatively, if the Spell Power bonus from Power Surge and Entropy would stack, then there would be a reason to use both slots.
Crystal Frags should just do more damage, plain and simple.
Sorcs also need a self-heal, a cheap, spammable self-heal.
IF you can think of anything else....
All great ideas:
Dark exchange would make a great Magicka for health instant and spammable self heal, and make longer shields unnecessary.
Power surge is fine, the other morph is for Stam sorcs.
We can get empower from Mage Light as well, I run it in PVE for empowered proc frags, but the empower gets stolen from liquid lightning ticks. THAT should be fixed.
Frags needs to hit harder, average damage is about 5-6K in PVP. That's NOT a lot for a skill that has a long cast time, only procs 30% of the time, is dodgeable, reflectable, and block able.
2 -
NativeJoe✭✭✭✭✭So just throwing this out there... We're supposed to spam shields constantly... how is this going to work with the poisen system?
...just throwing a little logic out here guys...but while this too doesn't effect people that instantly kill their opponents like gankers, or people that stack attacks like cookie cutter sorcs... but for pet builds, sustain builds, and anything else niche... it's going to be border line unfeasible. And this is just an example... there are stronger poisons out there.650cp+ Sorcerer 100+ days /played
Broken'Stick North American Server
https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks5 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭jknight201 wrote: »They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The sorcerer class has already died. Sorcerers are at the bottom of the DPS scale already. They will fall even farther when what little survivability they had is removed with the next patch. If your group is seriously trying to complete an achievement, like a Trial, why would you want people to bring a sorcerer when many other classes are hugely superior in every way? What can a sorc player offer than another class can't do, only better?
People shouldn't "give it a rest" as there is something some people will do - vote with their wallet/feet. Serious sorcerer players will cancel their Plus subscription and shelve the game, waiting for things to be fixed in a future patch. Zenimax needs to realize that while it's a shame to have wasted a large amount of time in a particular character class, there are many other alternatives to ESO out there - and they risk driving people to them unless they get control of the play-balance issues (not to mention the Cyrodiil lag issues, long-standing bugs, etc.).
I mostly agree with you, sorcerers are indeed the weakest class in PvE and have been so for quite some time now. Our DPS with both stamina and magicka builds is the lowest and at the same time we provide nearly no utility to a raid group, which in turn makes sorcerers less than desirable in competitive groups. At the same time we are not exceptional healers as our main healing skill is the active of a pet that dies if an enemy breaths in its general direction. As for Tanking, it used to be a funny alternative, but with reductions to our shielding, it will most likely be nonviable.
What I said about 'giving it a rest' was aimed to keep this a productive discussion instead of letting it sour into a endless list of posts complaining about a nerf to shields that will not be reverted. At best they will increase the shields duration to 10-12 seconds which will not fix the issues with this class. We need to give ZoS a more general feedback that goes beyond 'We don't like this change', 'We don't think this will fix the shield stacking on PvP', etc. That was all made very clear already.
Well then come up with some suggestions. I already gave my summoning tree work, now lets see what else we can do:
Dark Exchange is useless, and should be replaced with a viable skill, preferably a curse like DoT that deals x damage every y seconds for z seconds to that target player, or with a final explosion or something like that.
Power Surge should not only proc off DoTs (LL specifically), and give a bonus to Spell and Weapon power, but it should also give a Crit Bonus. Critical surge only gives weapon damage, but you take 70% healing from your crits instead and get a lower crib bonus.
Sorcs need a way to get an Empower bonus that is separate from Entropy because that way we can use Power Surge. Alternatively, if the Spell Power bonus from Power Surge and Entropy would stack, then there would be a reason to use both slots.
Crystal Frags should just do more damage, plain and simple.
Sorcs also need a self-heal, a cheap, spammable self-heal.
IF you can think of anything else....
All great ideas:
Dark exchange would make a great Magicka for health instant and spammable self heal, and make longer shields unnecessary.
Power surge is fine, the other morph is for Stam sorcs.
We can get empower from Mage Light as well, I run it in PVE for empowered proc frags, but the empower gets stolen from liquid lightning ticks. THAT should be fixed.
Frags needs to hit harder, average damage is about 5-6K in PVP. That's NOT a lot for a skill that has a long cast time, only procs 30% of the time, is dodgeable, reflectable, and block able.
Nice suggestions! I will still argue my replacement for Dark Exchange is by far better than both of yours. Having that useless spell replaced by a single target, easy to spam, easy to weave, magicka skill to replace Force Shock in our builds could heavily influence our lack of sustained DPS without terribly affecting PvP. To top that off, if one of the morphs was melee and did slightly more damage (to compensate for the risk factor of being close range in light armor) it would spark the possibility of having Magicka based Melee Sorcerer DPS, which would be great.
Now, why is it not great for it to be another DoT? Sorcerers already have an extremly powerful DoT in Lightning Splash and Morphs, what we don't have is a single target attack that is instant cast (unless you count Mage's Wrath and we all know we shouldn't ever use that skill out of execution stage). And why not make it a heal? You wouldn't need it! If you have an ability you can spam from the Dark Magic Tree you will constantly be healing your self with Blood Magic (Heals 8% of your health every hit). How great is that? Replace a completely useless skill by one that can solve both magicka sorcs DPS issue and sustain issue!
Crystal Fragments will never be buffed. Its damage when channeled is indeed really weak, but that ability is not meant to ever be channeled. It is supposed to be used only when it procs, that is why the other morph is never used, it doesn't have a proc. I think Crystal Blast should be given a proc and be made a stamina scaling skill. That would solve a lot of the issues Stam Sorcs have with their DPS.
You can't buff crystal fragments base damage too much or it remove the awesomeness of its procs. At most you could buff the skill by about 10% of its current damage without letting it affect the proc, but again, this is not a skill you should be using unless it actually procs.0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭So just throwing this out there... We're supposed to spam shields constantly... how is this going to work with the poisen system?
...just throwing a little logic out here guys...but while this too doesn't effect people that instantly kill their opponents like gankers, or people that stack attacks like cookie cutter sorcs... but for pet builds, sustain builds, and anything else niche... it's going to be border line unfeasible. And this is just an example... there are stronger poisons out there.
Thank god I don't PvP much. I hope mobs and bosses don't learn how to use poisons.2 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So just throwing this out there... We're supposed to spam shields constantly... how is this going to work with the poisen system?
...just throwing a little logic out here guys...but while this too doesn't effect people that instantly kill their opponents like gankers, or people that stack attacks like cookie cutter sorcs... but for pet builds, sustain builds, and anything else niche... it's going to be border line unfeasible. And this is just an example... there are stronger poisons out there.
We don't yet know how strong the poisons will be. ZOS has been very clear that that they will NOT be this strong, but they haven't finished them yet.1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭So just throwing this out there... We're supposed to spam shields constantly... how is this going to work with the poisen system?
...just throwing a little logic out here guys...but while this too doesn't effect people that instantly kill their opponents like gankers, or people that stack attacks like cookie cutter sorcs... but for pet builds, sustain builds, and anything else niche... it's going to be border line unfeasible. And this is just an example... there are stronger poisons out there.
We don't yet know how strong the poisons will be. ZOS has been very clear that that they will NOT be this strong, but they haven't finished them yet.
Good because that poison looked really scary >.>1 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So just throwing this out there... We're supposed to spam shields constantly... how is this going to work with the poisen system?
...just throwing a little logic out here guys...but while this too doesn't effect people that instantly kill their opponents like gankers, or people that stack attacks like cookie cutter sorcs... but for pet builds, sustain builds, and anything else niche... it's going to be border line unfeasible. And this is just an example... there are stronger poisons out there.
We don't yet know how strong the poisons will be. ZOS has been very clear that that they will NOT be this strong, but they haven't finished them yet.
I wouldn't put it past them. Seriously. Go take a gander at the new Incap damage.0 -
NativeJoe✭✭✭✭✭Yeah... Alls I'm saying is we're going to have poisons that INCREASE our magicka costs...and shields are supposed to be spammed? whether it's 60% increased cost or 15%... it's still there. lol
And as I've highlighted in my previous posts all over these forums...
It's a tremendous amount of change that slaughters the current viable niche builds. Literally just wipes them out. lol And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs, donating our style of shields to every other class, and getting absolutely nothing in return. I mean I'm stilled floored with what Proxy det does to me on the pts server with 5 pets out, absolutely floored since they wanted us to run pet builds...yet they build in a kill switch in one skill?
Our opponents as sorcs have NEVER been tougher. we're being outclasses on EVERY end. literally every single thing is better performed by another class. Right down to shielding . (dks are the best shield stackers) NB's are doing attack runs while shielded then disappearing to re-shield. Almost everyone is running mist form and it's getting Brutal out there. honestly it might be to the point WE sorcs need to pick up shield breaker. honestly!
As it stands... the only class im 100% confident about fighting on the battle field right now...is another sorc. And that is a new feeling x.xEdited by NativeJoe on May 8, 2016 5:45AM650cp+ Sorcerer 100+ days /played
Broken'Stick North American Server
https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks5 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs,
Where the hell this coming from? No one wants Magic Sorcs do "donate" passives to us. We want our class passives updated so that Magic and Stam benefit from them. Kinda like what they did with Expert Mage.2 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So just throwing this out there... We're supposed to spam shields constantly... how is this going to work with the poisen system?
...just throwing a little logic out here guys...but while this too doesn't effect people that instantly kill their opponents like gankers, or people that stack attacks like cookie cutter sorcs... but for pet builds, sustain builds, and anything else niche... it's going to be border line unfeasible. And this is just an example... there are stronger poisons out there.
That will be nasty when a sorcerer hits a magblade at long range with it from a staff blast or maybe the equivalent stamina version against a stamblade.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
bloodenragedb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs,
Where the hell this coming from? No one wants Magic Sorcs do "donate" passives to us. We want our class passives updated so that Magic and Stam benefit from them. Kinda like what they did with Expert Mage.
maybe so, maybe many stam sorcs feel that way, maybe all
but would you honestly put it past zos to shove that nerf bat farther up mag sorc hind ends? can you say with any certainty that that is not what is in the works?0 -
bloodenragedb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Gods,the poisons, even if not that strong, really at any percentage of strength that really messes up gameplay for every class, and just outright kills sorc's
Edit: holy.....i just thought about something, do the poisons that are coming, are they stronger against the werewolves?!?!?! the poor puppies, they have had to suffer negligence for their entire skill line and now they are getting hit with the upcoming poisons?!?! Gods ive never even played a werewolf and im cringing at that.Edited by bloodenragedb14_ESO on May 8, 2016 8:03AM0 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »Gods,the poisons, even if not that strong, really at any percentage of strength that really messes up gameplay for every class, and just outright kills sorc's
Edit: holy.....i just thought about something, do the poisons that are coming, are they stronger against the werewolves?!?!?! the poor puppies, they have had to suffer negligence for their entire skill line and now they are getting hit with the upcoming poisons?!?! Gods ive never even played a werewolf and im cringing at that.
Werewolves are actually getting a considerable buff with DB, but you are likely correct concerning poisons that cause direct damage. They would not be affected more strongly by poisons that are debuffs though as the 'weakness' states you take more damage from poison, no that werewolves are affected more powerfully by all poisons.Yeah... Alls I'm saying is we're going to have poisons that INCREASE our magicka costs...and shields are supposed to be spammed? whether it's 60% increased cost or 15%... it's still there. lol
And as I've highlighted in my previous posts all over these forums...
It's a tremendous amount of change that slaughters the current viable niche builds. Literally just wipes them out. lol And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs, donating our style of shields to every other class, and getting absolutely nothing in return. I mean I'm stilled floored with what Proxy det does to me on the pts server with 5 pets out, absolutely floored since they wanted us to run pet builds...yet they build in a kill switch in one skill?
Our opponents as sorcs have NEVER been tougher. we're being outclasses on EVERY end. literally every single thing is better performed by another class. Right down to shielding . (dks are the best shield stackers) NB's are doing attack runs while shielded then disappearing to re-shield. Almost everyone is running mist form and it's getting Brutal out there. honestly it might be to the point WE sorcs need to pick up shield breaker. honestly!
As it stands... the only class im 100% confident about fighting on the battle field right now...is another sorc. And that is a new feeling x.x
To be fair I think that is exactly what Zenimax intended, to eliminate shield stacking in PvP by making it considerably less viable. I do understand this will cause huge issues for other builds, such as magicka tanks and pet builds in general. I don't think asking for the changes to be reverted is the path though, we've witnessed how unwilling ZoS is to revert such nerfs before... The alternative is finding ways to make sorcerer better and with a strong identity without it being all about shielding.
As for how vocal we've been, I don't think it is possible to be more vocal... We are without a doubt the longest feedback thread thus far for DB.And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs,
Where the hell this coming from? No one wants Magic Sorcs do "donate" passives to us. We want our class passives updated so that Magic and Stam benefit from them. Kinda like what they did with Expert Mage.
DKs have 3 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
NBs have 6 Skills and 4 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
Templars have 5 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
Sorcerers have 4 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
As you can see comparing to other classes, sorcerers do have a good number of abilities that either affect positively or scale from Stamina and Weapon Power. The huge issue is that some of those skills or passives are simply not strong enough. Dark Exchange Stamina morph for one is a horrible skill, then again, the skill is bad for Magicka sorcerers as well.
Our Ults are also not exceptional for stamina sorcerers, but looking into them, they are simply not exceptional in general. Atronach's damage is insufficient to justify its use and it carries almost no utility. Negate was buffed, so I will abstain from bashing it for now. I will say that Energy Overload should return stamina or magicka depending on which resource pool is greater.
Understand, we do think stamina sorcerers need buffing, we are just afraid that ZoS will take away passives and abilities magicka sorcerer's need. The class in general needs some serious reviewing, but I am not sure if @Wrobel is actually willing to put in the work needed.0 -
cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »Gods,the poisons, even if not that strong, really at any percentage of strength that really messes up gameplay for every class, and just outright kills sorc's
Edit: holy.....i just thought about something, do the poisons that are coming, are they stronger against the werewolves?!?!?! the poor puppies, they have had to suffer negligence for their entire skill line and now they are getting hit with the upcoming poisons?!?! Gods ive never even played a werewolf and im cringing at that.
Werewolves are actually getting a considerable buff with DB, but you are likely correct concerning poisons that cause direct damage. They would not be affected more strongly by poisons that are debuffs though as the 'weakness' states you take more damage from poison, no that werewolves are affected more powerfully by all poisons.Yeah... Alls I'm saying is we're going to have poisons that INCREASE our magicka costs...and shields are supposed to be spammed? whether it's 60% increased cost or 15%... it's still there. lol
And as I've highlighted in my previous posts all over these forums...
It's a tremendous amount of change that slaughters the current viable niche builds. Literally just wipes them out. lol And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs, donating our style of shields to every other class, and getting absolutely nothing in return. I mean I'm stilled floored with what Proxy det does to me on the pts server with 5 pets out, absolutely floored since they wanted us to run pet builds...yet they build in a kill switch in one skill?
Our opponents as sorcs have NEVER been tougher. we're being outclasses on EVERY end. literally every single thing is better performed by another class. Right down to shielding . (dks are the best shield stackers) NB's are doing attack runs while shielded then disappearing to re-shield. Almost everyone is running mist form and it's getting Brutal out there. honestly it might be to the point WE sorcs need to pick up shield breaker. honestly!
As it stands... the only class im 100% confident about fighting on the battle field right now...is another sorc. And that is a new feeling x.x
To be fair I think that is exactly what Zenimax intended, to eliminate shield stacking in PvP by making it considerably less viable. I do understand this will cause huge issues for other builds, such as magicka tanks and pet builds in general. I don't think asking for the changes to be reverted is the path though, we've witnessed how unwilling ZoS is to revert such nerfs before... The alternative is finding ways to make sorcerer better and with a strong identity without it being all about shielding.
As for how vocal we've been, I don't think it is possible to be more vocal... We are without a doubt the longest feedback thread thus far for DB.And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs,
Where the hell this coming from? No one wants Magic Sorcs do "donate" passives to us. We want our class passives updated so that Magic and Stam benefit from them. Kinda like what they did with Expert Mage.
DKs have 3 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
NBs have 6 Skills and 4 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
Templars have 5 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
Sorcerers have 4 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
As you can see comparing to other classes, sorcerers do have a good number of abilities that either affect positively or scale from Stamina and Weapon Power. The huge issue is that some of those skills or passives are simply not strong enough. Dark Exchange Stamina morph for one is a horrible skill, then again, the skill is bad for Magicka sorcerers as well.
Our Ults are also not exceptional for stamina sorcerers, but looking into them, they are simply not exceptional in general. Atronach's damage is insufficient to justify its use and it carries almost no utility. Negate was buffed, so I will abstain from bashing it for now. I will say that Energy Overload should return stamina or magicka depending on which resource pool is greater.
Understand, we do think stamina sorcerers need buffing, we are just afraid that ZoS will take away passives and abilities magicka sorcerer's need. The class in general needs some serious reviewing, but I am not sure if @Wrobel is actually willing to put in the work needed.
Yeah, Wrobel and the other devs are just too lazy to put in the work to actually balance things and instead take the lazy way out which has resulted in the mess of a class we call sorcerers when it used to be such a fun class to play.Edited by cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO on May 8, 2016 9:54AMR.I.P. Daranth Spellborn
VR16 Dunmer Sorcerer
March 2014 - May 2016
He was a skilled Crafter and a reliable Sorcerer;
Then came the Dark Brotherhood
Wrobel wrote: Surge is now more effective for tank characters.
Because crit tanks are so good, LOL. xD0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »Gods,the poisons, even if not that strong, really at any percentage of strength that really messes up gameplay for every class, and just outright kills sorc's
Edit: holy.....i just thought about something, do the poisons that are coming, are they stronger against the werewolves?!?!?! the poor puppies, they have had to suffer negligence for their entire skill line and now they are getting hit with the upcoming poisons?!?! Gods ive never even played a werewolf and im cringing at that.
Werewolves are actually getting a considerable buff with DB, but you are likely correct concerning poisons that cause direct damage. They would not be affected more strongly by poisons that are debuffs though as the 'weakness' states you take more damage from poison, no that werewolves are affected more powerfully by all poisons.Yeah... Alls I'm saying is we're going to have poisons that INCREASE our magicka costs...and shields are supposed to be spammed? whether it's 60% increased cost or 15%... it's still there. lol
And as I've highlighted in my previous posts all over these forums...
It's a tremendous amount of change that slaughters the current viable niche builds. Literally just wipes them out. lol And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs, donating our style of shields to every other class, and getting absolutely nothing in return. I mean I'm stilled floored with what Proxy det does to me on the pts server with 5 pets out, absolutely floored since they wanted us to run pet builds...yet they build in a kill switch in one skill?
Our opponents as sorcs have NEVER been tougher. we're being outclasses on EVERY end. literally every single thing is better performed by another class. Right down to shielding . (dks are the best shield stackers) NB's are doing attack runs while shielded then disappearing to re-shield. Almost everyone is running mist form and it's getting Brutal out there. honestly it might be to the point WE sorcs need to pick up shield breaker. honestly!
As it stands... the only class im 100% confident about fighting on the battle field right now...is another sorc. And that is a new feeling x.x
To be fair I think that is exactly what Zenimax intended, to eliminate shield stacking in PvP by making it considerably less viable. I do understand this will cause huge issues for other builds, such as magicka tanks and pet builds in general. I don't think asking for the changes to be reverted is the path though, we've witnessed how unwilling ZoS is to revert such nerfs before... The alternative is finding ways to make sorcerer better and with a strong identity without it being all about shielding.
As for how vocal we've been, I don't think it is possible to be more vocal... We are without a doubt the longest feedback thread thus far for DB.And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs,
Where the hell this coming from? No one wants Magic Sorcs do "donate" passives to us. We want our class passives updated so that Magic and Stam benefit from them. Kinda like what they did with Expert Mage.
DKs have 3 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
NBs have 6 Skills and 4 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
Templars have 5 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
Sorcerers have 4 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
As you can see comparing to other classes, sorcerers do have a good number of abilities that either affect positively or scale from Stamina and Weapon Power. The huge issue is that some of those skills or passives are simply not strong enough. Dark Exchange Stamina morph for one is a horrible skill, then again, the skill is bad for Magicka sorcerers as well.
Our Ults are also not exceptional for stamina sorcerers, but looking into them, they are simply not exceptional in general. Atronach's damage is insufficient to justify its use and it carries almost no utility. Negate was buffed, so I will abstain from bashing it for now. I will say that Energy Overload should return stamina or magicka depending on which resource pool is greater.
Understand, we do think stamina sorcerers need buffing, we are just afraid that ZoS will take away passives and abilities magicka sorcerer's need. The class in general needs some serious reviewing, but I am not sure if @Wrobel is actually willing to put in the work needed.
Yeah, Wrobel and the other devs are just too lazy to put in the work to actually balance things and instead take the lazy way out which has resulted in the mess of a class we call sorcerers when it used to be such a fun class to play.
I´d go as far as saying - sorcs always had issues in either pvp, pve or both. Instead of solving the issues that were pushing the class into certain direction ZOS over the last two years has been constantly cutting down the few options the class had. With that process not solving anything but rather aggravating things for sorcs as a whole.
It´s the only class where i feel the development team has no vision of what it should be capable of (outside of using pets and with how eso is set up that´ll hardly ever work).<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
cpuScientist✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah... Alls I'm saying is we're going to have poisons that INCREASE our magicka costs...and shields are supposed to be spammed? whether it's 60% increased cost or 15%... it's still there. lol
And as I've highlighted in my previous posts all over these forums...
It's a tremendous amount of change that slaughters the current viable niche builds. Literally just wipes them out. lol And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs, donating our style of shields to every other class, and getting absolutely nothing in return. I mean I'm stilled floored with what Proxy det does to me on the pts server with 5 pets out, absolutely floored since they wanted us to run pet builds...yet they build in a kill switch in one skill?
Our opponents as sorcs have NEVER been tougher. we're being outclasses on EVERY end. literally every single thing is better performed by another class. Right down to shielding . (dks are the best shield stackers) NB's are doing attack runs while shielded then disappearing to re-shield. Almost everyone is running mist form and it's getting Brutal out there. honestly it might be to the point WE sorcs need to pick up shield breaker. honestly!
As it stands... the only class im 100% confident about fighting on the battle field right now...is another sorc. And that is a new feeling x.x
This is what's so bad. Nothing in the Sorc toolset is unique to Sorcs anymore. We are not the best DPS or healer or tank, we are not the best shielders or sustained. We have the least amount of viable options in our skill trees. We offer nothing tangible to a group outside of minor prophecy and extra regen which lol can only be obtained if we use the 8 second shield and no lol not doing that. Not feasible in the least. We are nothing we are a dead class.
Our only unique trait iur clasd identity is that we have pets. Stuoif looking weak pets. And they are simply useless in any real content. It is a shame how weak we are.
People have complained that Sorcs should be glass cannons, lots of DPS but low survivability if caught. Well we were squishy before but had some good survivability in PVE with our shields and ok in PvP. But we were never cannons we were not too dog DPS in fact we had the least of the magicka and stamina and our highest DPS form, magicka Sorcs, are in what 5th or 6th place, do we out DPS stamblades? So now we are just glass. Glass Pea Shooters, not glass cannons....
@Wrobel
Fix this mess you have made!4 -
Yo_Donno✭✭✭jknight201 wrote: »They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The sorcerer class has already died. Sorcerers are at the bottom of the DPS scale already. They will fall even farther when what little survivability they had is removed with the next patch. If your group is seriously trying to complete an achievement, like a Trial, why would you want people to bring a sorcerer when many other classes are hugely superior in every way? What can a sorc player offer than another class can't do, only better?
People shouldn't "give it a rest" as there is something some people will do - vote with their wallet/feet. Serious sorcerer players will cancel their Plus subscription and shelve the game, waiting for things to be fixed in a future patch. Zenimax needs to realize that while it's a shame to have wasted a large amount of time in a particular character class, there are many other alternatives to ESO out there - and they risk driving people to them unless they get control of the play-balance issues (not to mention the Cyrodiil lag issues, long-standing bugs, etc.).
I mostly agree with you, sorcerers are indeed the weakest class in PvE and have been so for quite some time now. Our DPS with both stamina and magicka builds is the lowest and at the same time we provide nearly no utility to a raid group, which in turn makes sorcerers less than desirable in competitive groups. At the same time we are not exceptional healers as our main healing skill is the active of a pet that dies if an enemy breaths in its general direction. As for Tanking, it used to be a funny alternative, but with reductions to our shielding, it will most likely be nonviable.
What I said about 'giving it a rest' was aimed to keep this a productive discussion instead of letting it sour into a endless list of posts complaining about a nerf to shields that will not be reverted. At best they will increase the shields duration to 10-12 seconds which will not fix the issues with this class. We need to give ZoS a more general feedback that goes beyond 'We don't like this change', 'We don't think this will fix the shield stacking on PvP', etc. That was all made very clear already.
Well then come up with some suggestions. I already gave my summoning tree work, now lets see what else we can do:
Dark Exchange is useless, and should be replaced with a viable skill, preferably a curse like DoT that deals x damage every y seconds for z seconds to that target player, or with a final explosion or something like that.
Power Surge should not only proc off DoTs (LL specifically), and give a bonus to Spell and Weapon power, but it should also give a Crit Bonus. Critical surge only gives weapon damage, but you take 70% healing from your crits instead and get a lower crib bonus.
Sorcs need a way to get an Empower bonus that is separate from Entropy because that way we can use Power Surge. Alternatively, if the Spell Power bonus from Power Surge and Entropy would stack, then there would be a reason to use both slots.
Crystal Frags should just do more damage, plain and simple.
Sorcs also need a self-heal, a cheap, spammable self-heal.
IF you can think of anything else....
All great ideas:
Dark exchange would make a great Magicka for health instant and spammable self heal, and make longer shields unnecessary.
Power surge is fine, the other morph is for Stam sorcs.
We can get empower from Mage Light as well, I run it in PVE for empowered proc frags, but the empower gets stolen from liquid lightning ticks. THAT should be fixed.
Frags needs to hit harder, average damage is about 5-6K in PVP. That's NOT a lot for a skill that has a long cast time, only procs 30% of the time, is dodgeable, reflectable, and block able.
Nice suggestions! I will still argue my replacement for Dark Exchange is by far better than both of yours. Having that useless spell replaced by a single target, easy to spam, easy to weave, magicka skill to replace Force Shock in our builds could heavily influence our lack of sustained DPS without terribly affecting PvP. To top that off, if one of the morphs was melee and did slightly more damage (to compensate for the risk factor of being close range in light armor) it would spark the possibility of having Magicka based Melee Sorcerer DPS, which would be great.
Now, why is it not great for it to be another DoT? Sorcerers already have an extremly powerful DoT in Lightning Splash and Morphs, what we don't have is a single target attack that is instant cast (unless you count Mage's Wrath and we all know we shouldn't ever use that skill out of execution stage). And why not make it a heal? You wouldn't need it! If you have an ability you can spam from the Dark Magic Tree you will constantly be healing your self with Blood Magic (Heals 8% of your health every hit). How great is that? Replace a completely useless skill by one that can solve both magicka sorcs DPS issue and sustain issue!
Crystal Fragments will never be buffed. Its damage when channeled is indeed really weak, but that ability is not meant to ever be channeled. It is supposed to be used only when it procs, that is why the other morph is never used, it doesn't have a proc. I think Crystal Blast should be given a proc and be made a stamina scaling skill. That would solve a lot of the issues Stam Sorcs have with their DPS.
You can't buff crystal fragments base damage too much or it remove the awesomeness of its procs. At most you could buff the skill by about 10% of its current damage without letting it affect the proc, but again, this is not a skill you should be using unless it actually procs.
You're right, you should use frags unless it procs. But @jknight201 is also right, average damage for frags is just too low, considering a Nightblade can Teleport Strike + Death Stroke = 20,000 Damage before you even know what happened.
Stam build damage actually has a leg up in PVP because everyone's spell resistance tends to be scores greater than their physical. A full set of Nirnhoned pieces (yes, rare and expensive but still possible) basically negates Crystal Frags entirely. Damage counters bounce around a lot for me in PVP. Empowered Proc Crit Frags usually hit for 9-10k, but I have seen it as low as 3k, in turn as high as 15k.
Why would buffing the base damage nerf the proc? Wouldn't buffing the base damage also buff the proc because it increases by 20% of the new, higher base damage which is equal to a higher numerical value? I don't really understand what you mean.1 -
Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭jknight201 wrote: »They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The sorcerer class has already died. Sorcerers are at the bottom of the DPS scale already. They will fall even farther when what little survivability they had is removed with the next patch. If your group is seriously trying to complete an achievement, like a Trial, why would you want people to bring a sorcerer when many other classes are hugely superior in every way? What can a sorc player offer than another class can't do, only better?
People shouldn't "give it a rest" as there is something some people will do - vote with their wallet/feet. Serious sorcerer players will cancel their Plus subscription and shelve the game, waiting for things to be fixed in a future patch. Zenimax needs to realize that while it's a shame to have wasted a large amount of time in a particular character class, there are many other alternatives to ESO out there - and they risk driving people to them unless they get control of the play-balance issues (not to mention the Cyrodiil lag issues, long-standing bugs, etc.).
I mostly agree with you, sorcerers are indeed the weakest class in PvE and have been so for quite some time now. Our DPS with both stamina and magicka builds is the lowest and at the same time we provide nearly no utility to a raid group, which in turn makes sorcerers less than desirable in competitive groups. At the same time we are not exceptional healers as our main healing skill is the active of a pet that dies if an enemy breaths in its general direction. As for Tanking, it used to be a funny alternative, but with reductions to our shielding, it will most likely be nonviable.
What I said about 'giving it a rest' was aimed to keep this a productive discussion instead of letting it sour into a endless list of posts complaining about a nerf to shields that will not be reverted. At best they will increase the shields duration to 10-12 seconds which will not fix the issues with this class. We need to give ZoS a more general feedback that goes beyond 'We don't like this change', 'We don't think this will fix the shield stacking on PvP', etc. That was all made very clear already.
Well then come up with some suggestions. I already gave my summoning tree work, now lets see what else we can do:
Dark Exchange is useless, and should be replaced with a viable skill, preferably a curse like DoT that deals x damage every y seconds for z seconds to that target player, or with a final explosion or something like that.
Power Surge should not only proc off DoTs (LL specifically), and give a bonus to Spell and Weapon power, but it should also give a Crit Bonus. Critical surge only gives weapon damage, but you take 70% healing from your crits instead and get a lower crib bonus.
Sorcs need a way to get an Empower bonus that is separate from Entropy because that way we can use Power Surge. Alternatively, if the Spell Power bonus from Power Surge and Entropy would stack, then there would be a reason to use both slots.
Crystal Frags should just do more damage, plain and simple.
Sorcs also need a self-heal, a cheap, spammable self-heal.
IF you can think of anything else....
All great ideas:
Dark exchange would make a great Magicka for health instant and spammable self heal, and make longer shields unnecessary.
Power surge is fine, the other morph is for Stam sorcs.
We can get empower from Mage Light as well, I run it in PVE for empowered proc frags, but the empower gets stolen from liquid lightning ticks. THAT should be fixed.
Frags needs to hit harder, average damage is about 5-6K in PVP. That's NOT a lot for a skill that has a long cast time, only procs 30% of the time, is dodgeable, reflectable, and block able.
Nice suggestions! I will still argue my replacement for Dark Exchange is by far better than both of yours. Having that useless spell replaced by a single target, easy to spam, easy to weave, magicka skill to replace Force Shock in our builds could heavily influence our lack of sustained DPS without terribly affecting PvP. To top that off, if one of the morphs was melee and did slightly more damage (to compensate for the risk factor of being close range in light armor) it would spark the possibility of having Magicka based Melee Sorcerer DPS, which would be great.
Now, why is it not great for it to be another DoT? Sorcerers already have an extremly powerful DoT in Lightning Splash and Morphs, what we don't have is a single target attack that is instant cast (unless you count Mage's Wrath and we all know we shouldn't ever use that skill out of execution stage). And why not make it a heal? You wouldn't need it! If you have an ability you can spam from the Dark Magic Tree you will constantly be healing your self with Blood Magic (Heals 8% of your health every hit). How great is that? Replace a completely useless skill by one that can solve both magicka sorcs DPS issue and sustain issue!
Crystal Fragments will never be buffed. Its damage when channeled is indeed really weak, but that ability is not meant to ever be channeled. It is supposed to be used only when it procs, that is why the other morph is never used, it doesn't have a proc. I think Crystal Blast should be given a proc and be made a stamina scaling skill. That would solve a lot of the issues Stam Sorcs have with their DPS.
You can't buff crystal fragments base damage too much or it remove the awesomeness of its procs. At most you could buff the skill by about 10% of its current damage without letting it affect the proc, but again, this is not a skill you should be using unless it actually procs.
You're right, you should use frags unless it procs. But @jknight201 is also right, average damage for frags is just too low, considering a Nightblade can Teleport Strike + Death Stroke = 20,000 Damage before you even know what happened.
Stam build damage actually has a leg up in PVP because everyone's spell resistance tends to be scores greater than their physical. A full set of Nirnhoned pieces (yes, rare and expensive but still possible) basically negates Crystal Frags entirely. Damage counters bounce around a lot for me in PVP. Empowered Proc Crit Frags usually hit for 9-10k, but I have seen it as low as 3k, in turn as high as 15k.
Why would buffing the base damage nerf the proc? Wouldn't buffing the base damage also buff the proc because it increases by 20% of the new, higher base damage which is equal to a higher numerical value? I don't really understand what you mean.
Of course increasing the base damage of Crystal Fragments would only buff its proc, that is why they won\t simply increase the base damage. If were to increase the damage for a channeled Crystal Fragment what they'd do is, for example, increase the base damage by 10% and reduce the bonus damage of the proc from 30% to 20%. Something like that. I doubt Zenimax will allow for the Proc of Crystal Fragments to be more powerful than it currently is as the crit of this ability hits like a truck already. Buffing this ability is not the solution for sorcerer's DPS issue, nor is it for PvP as it is an incredibly slow bullet that can be easily blocked, roll dodged or even worse, reflected.
Nightblades were always meant for assassination, so I see no problem with their combo having a devastating surprise damage in PvP. It is what the class was built to do, it is their identity.cpuScientist wrote: »Yeah... Alls I'm saying is we're going to have poisons that INCREASE our magicka costs...and shields are supposed to be spammed? whether it's 60% increased cost or 15%... it's still there. lol
And as I've highlighted in my previous posts all over these forums...
It's a tremendous amount of change that slaughters the current viable niche builds. Literally just wipes them out. lol And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs, donating our style of shields to every other class, and getting absolutely nothing in return. I mean I'm stilled floored with what Proxy det does to me on the pts server with 5 pets out, absolutely floored since they wanted us to run pet builds...yet they build in a kill switch in one skill?
Our opponents as sorcs have NEVER been tougher. we're being outclasses on EVERY end. literally every single thing is better performed by another class. Right down to shielding . (dks are the best shield stackers) NB's are doing attack runs while shielded then disappearing to re-shield. Almost everyone is running mist form and it's getting Brutal out there. honestly it might be to the point WE sorcs need to pick up shield breaker. honestly!
As it stands... the only class im 100% confident about fighting on the battle field right now...is another sorc. And that is a new feeling x.x
This is what's so bad. Nothing in the Sorc toolset is unique to Sorcs anymore. We are not the best DPS or healer or tank, we are not the best shielders or sustained. We have the least amount of viable options in our skill trees. We offer nothing tangible to a group outside of minor prophecy and extra regen which lol can only be obtained if we use the 8 second shield and no lol not doing that. Not feasible in the least. We are nothing we are a dead class.
Our only unique trait iur clasd identity is that we have pets. Stuoif looking weak pets. And they are simply useless in any real content. It is a shame how weak we are.
People have complained that Sorcs should be glass cannons, lots of DPS but low survivability if caught. Well we were squishy before but had some good survivability in PVE with our shields and ok in PvP. But we were never cannons we were not too dog DPS in fact we had the least of the magicka and stamina and our highest DPS form, magicka Sorcs, are in what 5th or 6th place, do we out DPS stamblades? So now we are just glass. Glass Pea Shooters, not glass cannons....
@Wrobel
Fix this mess you have made!
I think you touched a point there. I am not sure @Wrobel has a vision for the sorcerer class. Currently the class has lost its appeal as it is not only no longer unique, but also features among the weakest class in every PvE role. We are the weakest DPS, we are not great tanks, specially now with our Ward shot down and we are not great healers with our class heal tied to a pet that dies if an enemy breaths in its general direction.
Once upon a time magicka sorcerers were a real powerhouse DPS wise and the class had the utility of Negate which was essential to Raids, so much so we were hardly ever allowed to use other ults, similarly to Veil of Blades and Nova for Nightblades and Templars. Nerf after nerf is what is driving this class to the ground and every large patch it feels sorcerer's lose whatever they still had going for them. We lost strong DPS pretty early, next we lost negate because it was too strong in both PvP and PvE, now our shields are being normalized and nerfed without any apparent compensation to the class. At the same time we still have several skills that are mostly useless like Dark Exchange, the pets (both because they are toggles and because they simply don't survive long enough - increasing pet armor will not solve this, specially with Ward being nerfed to the ground @Wrobel! The pets DPs is also not exceptional.), passives that only affect pets or are only activated when we have pets in our bars.
On top of that Magicka sorcerers are perpetually tied to a Destro Staff as we are the only class that does not have a single target magicka ability we can spam, a fact is well aware of as we have been requesting one such ability since the game was released. The fact we are tied to a single weapon limits build uniqueness, which is really sad. I wanted to play my sorcerer as a melee lightening wield summoner taking full advantage of how dual wield swords can be strong for us, taking advantage of Lightning Form and Liquid Lightening (easier to aim from melee range), but being tied to a staff pretty much removes that option, not to mention the fact pets only scale from Magika makes them simply too weak...
I don't know, there is much that could be said about ZoS and much that was said to them in this thread. I wish we would at least get a response from @Wrobel, but he is likely too afraid to come and discuss the class with us. It is unfortunate because at least some of our ideas must be good, not all, but some of them. The discussion would also be great so we could give him our vision for the class as he clearly lacks just that when sorcerers are concerned.5 -
Ryuho✭✭✭✭cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »@Wrobel
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I have been reading a lot of the posts on this lately and from my guesstimate it looks like about 80 to 90 percent of players are against the reduction in shield duration, even those who are against shield stacking since they do not believe reducing the duration of shields would fix the "problem".
My question becomes... Why implement something that 80-90 percent of affected players do not want and are not asking for?
What seems to be a far more popular "solution" would be to implement a greater and lesser shield mechanic.
The PvP community is still asking this two years later.
AOE Cap Poll
Wow that is kinda scary...
What's even scarier is that ZOS is still attempting to band-aid fix the problems, that we warned them they would create in that thread. Proxy Det and Vicious Death are some of those band-aid fixes that have only made the problems worse.
Shield stacking absolutely needs to go. However, this "fix" won't do anything stop it, and will only make the PvP shield stackers stronger while hurting Magic Sorcs in other areas of the game.
I don't feel that shield stacking is such as issue as lack of tools for stam builds to take down the shields is. There's 1 set designed to take down a Sorc, 1 set and this game has been out since 2014. Shields aren't critable, another issue in many people's eyes. Most if not all the complaints are from the pvp community. Shields already got nerfed by 50% so let's make shields take 50% of the crit damage or make a have elemental damage type that they are weak against like shock? No one ever uses shock enchants on their weapons in pvp that that would give them a purpose.
Shield stacking is a huge issue. I'm perfectly fine with ZOS normalizing Hardened Ward, Bone Shield and Harness Magicka to handle both magic and physical damage, but these shields should never be able to be used together. My preferred system for handling shields would be to make those three Major Wards, then make every other ward in game a Minor Ward, while Barrier remains unchanged due to being an ultimate. When you apply a Major Ward it will always replace your current Major Ward, and Minor Ward Priority would always be Blazing Shield, Healing Ward, then any other ward using whichever is stronger over a current weaker ward. This system would severely reduce shield stacking while ensuring shields that are more utility based (Blazing Shield, Healing Ward) can still be used.
I'm sorry but from a guy who plays stamblade, magblade, stam Sorc, mag Sorc and, stam dk I don't see the issue you and many other people are having with the stacking.
Shield stacking an issue in PvP.
Not really.
It is and that is why its being heavily nerfed. Powerful shields with long duration that can be stacked to protect against absurd amounts of damage does get a little bit ridiculous... Now to maintain that same level of protection you will need to spend more of your resources or activate those abilities when you really need them.
They are not rolling back in this change just like they didn't rolled back on the changes made to Negate and the changes made to AoEs, so give it a rest already. They know we are not satisfied. What we can do now is suggest and hope they will listen and save this sinking class instead of just letting Sorcerers die out completely.
None of Zenimax's nerfing is without some reasoning. Negate was nerfed for silencing a group of several individuals in PvP when they were trying to conquer a flag was extremely powerful, even over powered. Streak was nerfed because sorcerers could spam it almost endlessly in PvP and though I don't think the ability to run away is over powered. I can understand how it can be frustrating. AoEs were heavily limited because ZoS is against the current 'zerg ball' strategy. It is not truly strategical (even if war many times do come down to numbers, not skill) and it is bad for the server's health. The particle density and rendering of so many AoEs cause tremendous lag.
My problem with their balancing equation is that Zenimax does not seem to take PvE into consideration as much as they should. Sorcerers were once a powerful class, but nerfs to our damage put the class at the bottom of both Stamina and Magika DPS, nerfs to Negate translate to sorcerers bringing almost no utility to the raid, thus why Nightblades, Templars and Dragon Knights are needed in a serious raid group while sorcerers are just accepted in small numbers, when allowed at all. This latest nerf to our shield strips yet another piece of the sorcerer's special identity. We have now low sustain and very little to use for survivability, which in turn cripples several different play styles. Magicka Tanks, Pet Builds in General...
We need buffs that truly fix the issues, including the class low DPS, low to non existent utility and the lack of variety allowed by our current skills.
The Shields didn't last the duration in pvp with the heavy damage coming in. Sorc's habitually refreshed them every few seconds.
So what will change now then?
Before - Sorcs refreshing shields every few seconds. After - Sorce refreshing shields every few seconds + other classes refreshing shields.
This hasn't removed shield stacking, it's added to the number of shields in pvp.
Sorc shields got buffed imo. Whoever waits til the full duration of the shield in trials must be one tanky person or the healer is good enough and they dont even use their shields.
How did the sorc shield get buffed if I may ask? As what they did to the ward certainly seems like a nerf with them only reducing the duration of it with no cost reduction, increasing how big the shield is etc. And no, annulment, bone shield etc are not sorc shields.
Shield stacking got buffed due to the Annulment buff. Magic Sorcs are the only class that can effectively sheild stack. With all of the shield changes Sorcs net a PvP buff and a PvE nerf, and the problem they intended to fix has only gotten worse.
I challenge the statement of 6s shields absorbing all dmg being a pvp buff.
For sorcs only utilizing hardened the change is a hefty nerf. As it is for pvp petbuilds. It´s a nerf in about every situation except for facetanking multiple people (with stam builds amongst them).
Of course if that is what you feel is representative for sorc pvp - then you might interpret the changes as a buff in general.
I agree 100% with @Derra. And goodbye pokemon masters, shame I wanted to try pokemons once again..The Farron family team (EU)
sorcerer - Rubeus Farron AR31
templar - Selene Farron AR27
nightblade - Ryuho Farron AR25
stamplar - Nura Farron AR10
stamsorcerer - Kitty Farron AR14 (adopted member)
DK - Ryu Farron AR17
RETIRED
CU - next mmo0 -
Ajax_22✭✭✭✭✭And...
we as sorc population need to be more vocal about how we feel about all these changes before they just assume where chill with losing 70% of our shield duration, donating some of our passives to stamina sorcs,
Where the hell this coming from? No one wants Magic Sorcs do "donate" passives to us. We want our class passives updated so that Magic and Stam benefit from them. Kinda like what they did with Expert Mage.
DKs have 3 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
NBs have 6 Skills and 4 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
Templars have 5 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
Sorcerers have 4 Skills and 3 Passives that affect or scale from Stamina, Weapon Power and Weapon Crit. (Not counting Ults)
As you can see comparing to other classes, sorcerers do have a good number of abilities that either affect positively or scale from Stamina and Weapon Power. The huge issue is that some of those skills or passives are simply not strong enough. Dark Exchange Stamina morph for one is a horrible skill, then again, the skill is bad for Magicka sorcerers as well.
Our Ults are also not exceptional for stamina sorcerers, but looking into them, they are simply not exceptional in general. Atronach's damage is insufficient to justify its use and it carries almost no utility. Negate was buffed, so I will abstain from bashing it for now. I will say that Energy Overload should return stamina or magicka depending on which resource pool is greater.
Understand, we do think stamina sorcerers need buffing, we are just afraid that ZoS will take away passives and abilities magicka sorcerer's need. The class in general needs some serious reviewing, but I am not sure if @Wrobel is actually willing to put in the work needed.
When you look at those numbers everything looks pretty even (I'd argue that not including Leap skews that chart since it is the best Ult any stam build can get on live). However, those numbers are a huge misrepresentation of what is actually going on. Let's look at the NB passives compared to Sorcs.
NBs have one passive that is completely useless, and two that are questionable. Soul Siphoner is useless for stam. Magicka Flood and Executioner could be argued either way, but if you PvP you're not passing up more opportunities to use your magic based utility. I think NBs are the epitome of what passives and abilities should look like in regards to magic vs stam split.
Sorcs have five passives that are completely useless, and four passives that are questionable. Exploitation, Rebate, Expert Summoner, Energized, and Disintegrate are all useless for stam and no reasonable argument can be made otherwise. The questionable passives are, Blood Magic, Persistence, Deadric Protection, and Capacitor. Capacitor like Magicka Flood and Executioner allow you to use your magic utility more often. So that won't be passed up in PvP, but lets take a look at the other ones.
Blood Magic and Persistence
Blood Magic give you 8% health when you hit an enemy with a Dark Magic ability (4% in Cyrodiil and has a 1 second cooldown), and Persistence incresses the duration of those abilities by 20%. Encase is just bad on a Stam Sorc. Throwing out Caltrops, and using Lighting Form will give you the same end result, and do damage as well. You have to center your entire build around Rune Prison if you want to use it, and that build wouldn't work with Crit Surge. Mines are very niche for Stam Sorcs. They do very little damage, cost a lot, due to Blood Magic's cooldown you won't get health from every mine hit, and most of us just don't have bar space for it.
Deadric Protection
This passive, one of the main Stam Sorc passives, requires a Deadric Summoning ability to be slotted. The only Deadric Summoning ability useful to us is Bound Armaments, and it requires two slots to use. Bound Armaments is a pretty good skill, and I think the bonus it gives is balanced. However, it's not worth two bar slots, and even if it was I don't have two things on my bar that would be worth giving up. The only way I can fit Bound Armaments into any of my builds is to run Overload, and use the third bar for utility.
The problem is not the strength of the passives that effect us. The problem is the extreme requirement for some of those passives, and the staggering number of passives that we can't make use of.
Sorcs need a complete class rework, but I agree it won't happen.Edited by Ajax_22 on May 8, 2016 9:25PM1