Official Feedback Thread for Templars

Cinbri

timidobserver wrote: »

The patch notes say that Toppling charge has been improved again. Anyone tested it yet?

PTS still off.

Essiaga

blabafat wrote: »

@SemiD4rkness @Hymzir

Yes; I agree that a skilled s/b stam DK is extremely hard to fight in live as a magicka templar - no doubt. Sribes beats me more than I beat him 100% true.

However, in the next update, it's WAYY EASIER to fight these kind of builds because of the changes to CP, sweeps, vampires bane, and proxy det. With the CP system you can mitigate so much damage while buffing your own. As to what was buffed:

Radiant Destruction - No longer dodgeable
Dark Flare - 12% additional damage
Vampires Bane - Everything about this skill was buffed. It's in general stronger - longer duration, damage, works on shields/block
Jabs - Snares for 70%
Healing passive applies major mending now - obvious buff
Crescent sweep - 66% additional damage now (Though I have yet to compare this to dawnbreaker. I just need to wait on live patch)


Those are the significant changes I saw. Radiant destruction not being dodgeable is HUGE. It hits extremely hard (Easily 10k plus ticks). As for channeled focus, on the live patch, you get the magicka recovery for 18 seconds, whether or not you are in the circle. On PTS, I haven't tested it after they made another change to it.

Toppling Charge is the reason I stopped playing in December. They could fix it by replacing it with ambush or shield charge while the figure out what's wrong ... If they can't then there's no hope for ESO at all.

@blabafat ... I don't believe the Templar is dead. I simply believe its not the class I signed up for and clearly lacks in mitigation and simply gets weaker at it with EVERY balance updated. The Cleansing Ritual fix is the latest example of that.

DPS means little to me. Shield stacking is really the only place I've had legit complaint about my DPS output.

Sun Shield. Blinding Flashes. Eclipse. Ritual ... That's my complaint. BOL is the only thing in class we have left. While I'll agree some of those skill at one time were OP I don't think it warrants them being removed and replaced with nothing, or nerfed into the dirt. Sorc are left with a decent shield ... at the cost Sun Shield and Igneous. That's not balance.

Don't discount the level of experience you have with the class either. You've put as much time/effort into ESO as most people do learning MATH in their lives. Think about it. You also have a level of patients and acceptance for games many of us do not. You'll master whats in front of you. I just want to want to play the game. Lack of class identity is ruining it for me.

*** used to have the "I want to be Like Mike" ads. Most people want to be like Blab, Sypher, Fengrush ... That's why you have viewership. You're really good and if you're having issues with this build or that, then 90 to 98% of players are hopeless (not that all builds need to be equally good against all other possible builds.)

I wouldn't dream of tanking with a Templar when I have NB, DK, and Templar all at V16. I seriously think I'll be filling all three roles (heal, tank, dps) and possibly PVPing on my DK (if I continue playing ESO), but every time I play another class it just makes me want to play a viable Templar again. The Templar class used to fit like a glove. Now its missing fingers and the middle one is all I got left.

Also you didn't mention Backlash or Eclipse. The 2 skills that got reworked. What do you think about them?

Thal

bikerangelo wrote: »

The problem right now isn't that Templars are going to suck when TG comes out, it's that ZOS is almost purposefully disengaged from addressing a 58 page list of grievances from their player base. Recommending changes for Templars just feels futile and pointless, especially when the lead combat designer doesn't share the same ideas that the majority of the player base holds.

This is exactly the issue now - I'm unsure how a company would ask for commentary from its community and fail to constructively add any insight, feedback, or even acknowledge that the thread has even occurred (other than telling us to be stop hurting their feelings with some of the comments - If I had an employee feed the trolls like that, we'd immediately have a "conversation" followed by he/she taking full responsibility of righting the ship on this thread through active participation).

Sidenote: I do understand the frustration floating around, but I do agree with ZoS that we should keep it constructive. The way you do that is leading the conversation as a dev, not letting the community experience the 7 stages of grief in a 58+ page meltdown.

For reference, those stages are shock or disbelief, denial, bargaining, guilt, anger, depression, and acceptance/hope. I'd put us in the middle of Anger right now if I were to guess with some of the attacks on the streamers. Give me a break, nothing is their fault and they've done a pretty good job staying civil, like we all should.

TLDR - I'm excited to play my glass cannon Temp in a month and lob Dark Flares out my sunroof.

Essiaga

Lettigall wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I still feel the jabs knockdown is not a buff. Having played stamplar that allows you to have a class skill to close kills - granted the whole 'knockback effects' in this game and CC immunity not working is terribly horrible to deal with, its such a pain in the ass to deal with.

If knockbacks were tied to proper CC immunity itd be another story though I guess. The fact that it did provide CC immunity is one thing but many could and would lead with a javelin or something. Either way, that ministun mid DPS allowed for good closing afterwards - but it may just be a matter of preference. Theres plenty of ways to slow people in the game already.

It's certainly mixed. As pitiful as that CC was, it still could stop a wrecking blow. I was as frustrated as the next templar for the weak CC and all those free CC immunities, but I'm not totally on board with this change. Now I get nothing unless that last jab actually hits. That's not going to happen against the good PvP players unless they are CCed/rooted so there are going to be many situation whens the snare "buff" will not even apply.

Maybe ZoS thought a 70% snare on the intitial hit was too powerful, but I still think this ability needs more work. It's a key templar skill and ZoS should take the time to get it right.

Interrupting with knockback is very situational- enemy mustn't have CC immunity at the moment, you need to cast jabs at the right moment, to early it's a CC immunity gift for enemy and if too late you get bashed in the face with WB. And also you need to actually land last hit to CC enemy.

If knocback was on first hit then change to snares could be looked as a nerf but right now it's not giving free CC immunity to everyone around. Chancing knockback to snares gives more control in battle, you can CC enemy when you need not when you manage to somehow land last hit.

With new changes Javelin will be actually useful in close combat, it's damage and lack of debuffs sucks, but it's still way better CC ability then Jabs.

I never used jabs for the knockback. I alway try to set up with Charge or Javelin, etc. then reapply CC the same way. Jabs just gave them immunity for free. I like the idea of the snare but still feel Jabs multiple hits and chances to crit is inferior to Whip or Conceal, etc.

Insta is nice. I like jabs though. I just find the damage varies A LOT and it STINK vs shields. Time will tell.

/beats drum "more mitigation!"

booksmcread

Look at all those Templar fixes with today's patch! Oh wait, nevermind.

The lack of attention ZOS is showing people who play templars is a great indication of how much they care about the class. GG.

Joy_Division

So after reading the patch notes, am I the only one who think the PTS and our feedback is for bug-testing as opposed to, I don't know, adjusting the actual mechanics/changes ZoS has apparently already decided what was best for the game?

dodgehopper_ESO

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Mumyo wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

I think some people are over exaggerating Templar.

It's not at all gutted - especially magicka templar. It's very powerful next patch

It's not all gutted, you are right. However, you know as well as I do that templars are at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to pretty much everything, even healing now. If somebody pistols the whole other team in an FPS game, is it because of the players skill? Or because his weapon is good?

Templars are powerful yes....in the right hands. It takes SO MUCH MORE effort, thought, skill and patience to play a templar well compared to nightblades and sorcs. Imagine the carnage we would unleash if you or I rerolled nightblade or sorc. We could probably face palm our keyboards as a nightblade / sorc and still win more 1vX fights then we do on our templars.

Templars shouldn't have to try so hard to be competitive. This game only has 4 classes, there is no excuse for ESO not being more balanced. I've played games with over 30 playable classes that have more balance and sense then this game, @FENGRUSH knows what game I'm referring to. If ESO classes had a rating system like some fighting games do, I'm sure templars and probably DK's, would be rated 5 stars for difficulty, while the other two classes would be 1 or 2 stars and designed for beginners.

I have all the respect in the world for you @blabafat . I just can't agree with you or anybody else that says or even suggests that templars are balanced and don't have any problems.

I'm gonna go back to my house now, aka solitary confinement.

I can just agree with that, played my stamina templar since release and i got myself a v16 nb toon.

5minutes of playing with my templars gear and i did a 1v5 without even really knowing what im doing.
I was also on the pts and made a template sorc, slotted stuff for 5 minutes and fought a very experienced templar and managed to kill him.

Thats all there is to say... it is easy in comparison.
But on the other hand i think templar indeed got some pretty buffs and will be surely stronger with the coming patch. The question is : What about the other classes, how strong will they be. We will find out as soon as it goes live. Right now, i think (as a stamplar) i'll be fine since i allready kick ass and see many improvements coming. Im only afraid of the crazy burst builds that may come along.

I agree that stamplars got some nice buffs and thats why we will see much more of them. And sadly i didn't see a single buff for templars that will make magicka templars competitive in open-world pvp again --> another reason why stamplars number will increase.

Why would anyone play stamplar over magicka templar next patch with det + scaling ult + CP allocation in PVP?

Why do you play a Storc?

I see your point, Mag builds in general get a bump this update. Magplar has been a consistently better build for Templar as long as I can recollect as well, in a world where as a Stamplar you generally find players use very little of their class actives (and passives). The reality is though when you think of a Templar you are thinking of a Crusader, a Monk, a Priest, an Inquisitor, the Shining Knight. If you want to play that chivalric style many of us feel we get shortchanged, and I have to say in the beginning of the game when Magic was clearly better this was an obvious flaw. As a Stamplar or Tankplar the only positive changes worth noting is the major mending, longer spear knockback, and I'd say the snare on jabs is a net zero but a necessary one. Templar still needs better cc and has the most obviously bad cc of any class. By comparison Stone fist is essentially the same skill but gives way more to the Dk in return, and it is perhaps the weakest cc of the DK class. Conversely the Javelin is the best cc of the Templar class. That should give you food for thought in a world where DK is becoming a lot more competitive healer and an obviously better tank, and will likely have better DPS. DK's reflect is also reliable where Eclipse is very unreliable.

You'll note as well that most Stamplars out there play as if they were a Nightblade without Nightblade passives or cloak, and heavily reliant on Shuffle for mitigation.

dodgehopper_ESO

Thal wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

The problem right now isn't that Templars are going to suck when TG comes out, it's that ZOS is almost purposefully disengaged from addressing a 58 page list of grievances from their player base. Recommending changes for Templars just feels futile and pointless, especially when the lead combat designer doesn't share the same ideas that the majority of the player base holds.

This is exactly the issue now - I'm unsure how a company would ask for commentary from its community and fail to constructively add any insight, feedback, or even acknowledge that the thread has even occurred (other than telling us to be stop hurting their feelings with some of the comments - If I had an employee feed the trolls like that, we'd immediately have a "conversation" followed by he/she taking full responsibility of righting the ship on this thread through active participation).

Sidenote: I do understand the frustration floating around, but I do agree with ZoS that we should keep it constructive. The way you do that is leading the conversation as a dev, not letting the community experience the 7 stages of grief in a 58+ page meltdown.

For reference, those stages are shock or disbelief, denial, bargaining, guilt, anger, depression, and acceptance/hope. I'd put us in the middle of Anger right now if I were to guess with some of the attacks on the streamers. Give me a break, nothing is their fault and they've done a pretty good job staying civil, like we all should.

TLDR - I'm excited to play my glass cannon Temp in a month and lob Dark Flares out my sunroof.

Acceptance/hope for some people means moving on from playing Templars at best, to leaving ESO altogether though, and that's the problem.

Spacemonkey

Joy_Division wrote: »

So after reading the patch notes, am I the only one who think the PTS and our feedback is for bug-testing as opposed to, I don't know, adjusting the actual mechanics/changes ZoS has apparently already decided what was best for the game?

'I got that feeling' back with the release of IC. Paying testing from a large player base. It would be stupid business wise to do anything else.

TheM0rganism

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

im glad lotus fan is now dodgeable, and hopefully toppling charged is fixed for good

We've made improvements to Toppling Charge so it should be a lot better than it was, but there are still a couple small outstanding issues we need to address with it.

Via http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/248828/pts-patch-notes-v2-3-3#latest

kek

Solariken

booksmcread wrote: »

Look at all those Templar fixes with today's patch! Oh wait, nevermind.

The lack of attention ZOS is showing people who play templars is a great indication of how much they care about the class. GG.

This is ridiculous. For several months they touted the TG DLC as the "class balance patch," which was clearly to appease the Templar community and the overall QQ about Nightblade stealth abuse, but Major Mending is the only significant balance change for Templars, and is only an explicit buff to Stamplars. Were/are they just trying to kick the can a little farther down the road without any intention of addressing actual problems?

Neoauspex

Patch Notes Templar style:

- "Official Feedback Thread for Templars" has been renamed "Unofficial Feedback Thread for Templars"

dodgehopper_ESO

blabafat wrote: »

@SemiD4rkness @Hymzir

Yes; I agree that a skilled s/b stam DK is extremely hard to fight in live as a magicka templar - no doubt. Sribes beats me more than I beat him 100% true.

However, in the next update, it's WAYY EASIER to fight these kind of builds because of the changes to CP, sweeps, vampires bane, and proxy det. With the CP system you can mitigate so much damage while buffing your own. As to what was buffed:

Radiant Destruction - No longer dodgeable
Dark Flare - 12% additional damage
Vampires Bane - Everything about this skill was buffed. It's in general stronger - longer duration, damage, works on shields/block
Jabs - Snares for 70%
Healing passive applies major mending now - obvious buff
Crescent sweep - 66% additional damage now (Though I have yet to compare this to dawnbreaker. I just need to wait on live patch)


Those are the significant changes I saw. Radiant destruction not being dodgeable is HUGE. It hits extremely hard (Easily 10k plus ticks). As for channeled focus, on the live patch, you get the magicka recovery for 18 seconds, whether or not you are in the circle. On PTS, I haven't tested it after they made another change to it.

I'd say the Jabs adjustment is a net zero. Losing our knockback means losing an interrupt. We will need to spam our Javelin more, to the point of even interrupting our jabs in order to use it, and the cc immunity lasts too long off of that ability. Major Mending was long overdue, and is bringing the class more back to what it was a year ago when we had a similar passive buff to healing in general. It does mean my Stamplar doesn't get cheated on Vigor/Rally now though.

Khivas_Carrick

Am I the only one who's reliving crappy days about Paladins, particularly Ret Pallies, from early WoW?

Like the parallels are stunning.

AfkNinja

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

@SemiD4rkness @Hymzir

Yes; I agree that a skilled s/b stam DK is extremely hard to fight in live as a magicka templar - no doubt. Sribes beats me more than I beat him 100% true.

However, in the next update, it's WAYY EASIER to fight these kind of builds because of the changes to CP, sweeps, vampires bane, and proxy det. With the CP system you can mitigate so much damage while buffing your own. As to what was buffed:

Radiant Destruction - No longer dodgeable
Dark Flare - 12% additional damage
Vampires Bane - Everything about this skill was buffed. It's in general stronger - longer duration, damage, works on shields/block
Jabs - Snares for 70%
Healing passive applies major mending now - obvious buff
Crescent sweep - 66% additional damage now (Though I have yet to compare this to dawnbreaker. I just need to wait on live patch)


Those are the significant changes I saw. Radiant destruction not being dodgeable is HUGE. It hits extremely hard (Easily 10k plus ticks). As for channeled focus, on the live patch, you get the magicka recovery for 18 seconds, whether or not you are in the circle. On PTS, I haven't tested it after they made another change to it.

I'd say the Jabs adjustment is a net zero. Losing our knockback means losing an interrupt. We will need to spam our Javelin more, to the point of even interrupting our jabs in order to use it, and the cc immunity lasts too long off of that ability. Major Mending was long overdue, and is bringing the class more back to what it was a year ago when we had a similar passive buff to healing in general. It does mean my Stamplar doesn't get cheated on Vigor/Rally now though.

Jabs IS a net zero as the snare won't happen in PVP often. The last hit is the hardest one to land, love how ZOS doesn't understand the change they made will have no effect. Snare should be on the first hit, y'know so you can land the full jabs...

Also didn't they say they were adjusting and buffing all cone AOE as they are particularly hard to land? Was snare really the only "buff" they felt Jabs needed? I'm excited to try Rune focus and that's it...really wish I had started as a DK right about now.


Edit: Heading for 60.....

nagarjunna

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Acceptance/hope for some people means moving on from playing Templars at best, to leaving ESO altogether though, and that's the problem.

And that's the real issue - it becomes a spiral, ZOS not inclined to do anything for the Templar as it has a very small number of players who are losing hope and thus exit reinforcing the spiral.

Plus this:

Templar

Aedric Spear
Focused Charge: Made further improvements to this ability and its morphs to prevent you from getting locked out of using other abilities.

Yeah, right! One bug fix! When action's and words differ, believe actions! No improvements no changes business as usual

Zheg

Joy_Division wrote: »

So after reading the patch notes, am I the only one who think the PTS and our feedback is for bug-testing as opposed to, I don't know, adjusting the actual mechanics/changes ZoS has apparently already decided what was best for the game?

ZOS gonna ZOS. It's been this way since the beginning. Doing it the way other competitors approach it would require wrobel to have a coherent vision and a viable plan to implement it ahead of time. Any combat and balance feedback on PTS is seen as suggestions for the patch coming 3-12 months after the current one.

Solariken

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Am I the only one who's reliving crappy days about Paladins, particularly Ret Pallies, from early WoW?

Like the parallels are stunning.

@Khivas_Carrick Yep, it feels exactly like that. There must be something about this archetype that devopers just can't seem to get right. It's like they are always keeping the fact that the class has healing spells at the forefront of their minds which prevents them from building in meaningful utility or allowing it to deal competitive damge. WTF.

AfkNinja

Solariken wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Am I the only one who's reliving crappy days about Paladins, particularly Ret Pallies, from early WoW?

Like the parallels are stunning.

@Khivas_Carrick Yep, it feels exactly like that. There must be something about this archetype that devopers just can't seem to get right. It's like they are always keeping the fact that the class has healing spells at the forefront of their minds which prevents them from building in meaningful utility or allowing it to deal competitive damge. WTF.

They don't even realize that Sorc shields are basically equivalent to BOL yet they can be cast proactively...and last 20 seconds...yet sorc gets the best of all worlds. Insane mitigation, dmg, mobility and now heals too. Meanwhile Templar is held back in fear of us being OP.....ZOS logic.

Essiaga

TheM0rganism wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

im glad lotus fan is now dodgeable, and hopefully toppling charged is fixed for good

We've made improvements to Toppling Charge so it should be a lot better than it was, but there are still a couple small outstanding issues we need to address with it.

Via http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/248828/pts-patch-notes-v2-3-3#latest

kek

I love the level of confidence in their fix ... SHOULD BE ... though I'm glad they acknowledge outstanding issues with the skill.

Mitigation please.

Khivas_Carrick

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Thal wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

The problem right now isn't that Templars are going to suck when TG comes out, it's that ZOS is almost purposefully disengaged from addressing a 58 page list of grievances from their player base. Recommending changes for Templars just feels futile and pointless, especially when the lead combat designer doesn't share the same ideas that the majority of the player base holds.

This is exactly the issue now - I'm unsure how a company would ask for commentary from its community and fail to constructively add any insight, feedback, or even acknowledge that the thread has even occurred (other than telling us to be stop hurting their feelings with some of the comments - If I had an employee feed the trolls like that, we'd immediately have a "conversation" followed by he/she taking full responsibility of righting the ship on this thread through active participation).

Sidenote: I do understand the frustration floating around, but I do agree with ZoS that we should keep it constructive. The way you do that is leading the conversation as a dev, not letting the community experience the 7 stages of grief in a 58+ page meltdown.

For reference, those stages are shock or disbelief, denial, bargaining, guilt, anger, depression, and acceptance/hope. I'd put us in the middle of Anger right now if I were to guess with some of the attacks on the streamers. Give me a break, nothing is their fault and they've done a pretty good job staying civil, like we all should.

TLDR - I'm excited to play my glass cannon Temp in a month and lob Dark Flares out my sunroof.

Acceptance/hope for some people means moving on from playing Templars at best, to leaving ESO altogether though, and that's the problem.

Exactly what I'm doing. The Division, here I come.

Khivas_Carrick

Solariken wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Am I the only one who's reliving crappy days about Paladins, particularly Ret Pallies, from early WoW?

Like the parallels are stunning.

@Khivas_Carrick Yep, it feels exactly like that. There must be something about this archetype that devopers just can't seem to get right. It's like they are always keeping the fact that the class has healing spells at the forefront of their minds which prevents them from building in meaningful utility or allowing it to deal competitive damge. WTF.

I'm stunned at this issue, especially after Blizzard finally got it right and proved that a class can heal, have devoted healing sources, and still do massive damage that's competitive with others, it's all about specializing. Yet here we are, watching ZoS *** up time and time again, for no reason no less.

TheM0rganism

Essiaga wrote: »

TheM0rganism wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Bfish22090 wrote: »

im glad lotus fan is now dodgeable, and hopefully toppling charged is fixed for good

We've made improvements to Toppling Charge so it should be a lot better than it was, but there are still a couple small outstanding issues we need to address with it.

Via http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/248828/pts-patch-notes-v2-3-3#latest

kek

I love the level of confidence in their fix ... SHOULD BE ... though I'm glad they acknowledge outstanding issues with the skill.

Mitigation please.

I simply love the fact that they could have done nothing given that level of damage control.

"We fixed it. It should work. But it might not. Still."

SemiD4rkness

nagarjunna wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Acceptance/hope for some people means moving on from playing Templars at best, to leaving ESO altogether though, and that's the problem.

And that's the real issue - it becomes a spiral, ZOS not inclined to do anything for the Templar as it has a very small number of players who are losing hope and thus exit reinforcing the spiral.

Plus this:

Templar

Aedric Spear
Focused Charge: Made further improvements to this ability and its morphs to prevent you from getting locked out of using other abilities.

Yeah, right! One bug fix! When action's and words differ, believe actions! No improvements no changes business as usual

Calm down, the ability is getting fixed by parts, it will work as intended in about 5 more DLCs

Khaos_Bane

Hey, as long as streamers can WB Spam through a group of healers all is good !

Cinbri

I feel the power of buffed Dark Flare... when my Dark Flare was reflected by Scales and one-shotted me with 20k damage.

AfkNinja

Cinbri wrote: »

I feel the power of buffed Dark Flare... when my Dark Flare was reflected by Scales and one-shotted me with 20k damage.

See! Templar ARE stronger! Stronger at one shotting ourselves.....

Iyas

Cinbri wrote: »

I feel the power of buffed Dark Flare... when my Dark Flare was reflected by Scales and one-shotted me with 20k damage.

did you leave your house? but without double reflect and projectile purge its a real problem. What happens if you put the bubble on a reflect dk?

dodgehopper_ESO

Iyas wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

I feel the power of buffed Dark Flare... when my Dark Flare was reflected by Scales and one-shotted me with 20k damage.

did you leave your house? but without double reflect and projectile purge its a real problem. What happens if you put the bubble on a reflect dk?

They seriously need to just give us a reflect and call it good. I've had it with them trying to 'get fancy' when they're having a hard time with 'getting simple'. I'd like to see them turn charge into golden ambush. They need to just convert our abilities that don't work, into ones that do, and quit acting like their minor tweaks are actually doing something. The same could be said between backlash and mark.

Cinbri

Iyas wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

I feel the power of buffed Dark Flare... when my Dark Flare was reflected by Scales and one-shotted me with 20k damage.

did you leave your house? but without double reflect and projectile purge its a real problem. What happens if you put the bubble on a reflect dk?

Total Dark proc heal, but spell not reflecting anymore. Scales > Eclipse. Literally with removal of double reflection Eclipse became absolutelly useless @Wrobel . Also seems some new bug on PTS, will test it tomorrow, but my Dark Flare from tooltip 14k deal only 3k damage to my dk friend in light armor.
EDIT: Defensive Stance > Eclipse too.