Do you want group damage to return?

KallistaBlackheart

the player who can dodge the red, position properly and deal their fair share of the dps is clearly better then the one who can do all of that with lower dps or only the first part without the dps...

the only evidence we have that damage meters cause the rancid player base that is being alluded to is purely anecdotal, that is to say no evidence at all.

to say that anybody in favor of a group damage meter think that only dps matters is a straw man at best and a lie at worst.

ShadowHvo

No.

Reznique

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

OLIVI3R wrote: »

BRING IT BACK PLEASE!

Such addons only bring more challenge and competitiveness into those dull trials/dungeons, and competition is what makes you progress and have fun.

Let me explain :

- Such addons can bring more challenge to the ones who use it this way, but harm a lot those who don't use it this way.
- Competition is what makes YOU (I mean YOU, not generic) progress and have fun. Not everyone likes competition.
- Diversity is what makes ME (I mean ME, not generic) progress and have fun. Such an addon is very likely to promote "almighty DPS" as the only measurement of performance, and thus kill the diversity I like (and already is jeopardized enough as it is).

.

I (As in, myself) do not want to have a low DPS in my team, as this way he will surely drag the team down.

"Flaming" and "Harrasment" can happen without group DPS addons- let's say YOU do 8k dps on first boss in vWGT (example). That would mean that WE (as in, the rest of the group) would ask you to post your DPS stats (This is because low DPS takes more time for the boss ^_^). And then YOU (as in, you) will be kicked and a viable substitute will be found.

Therefore, such addons just save time and nerves for everone, doubt that you think that without this addon people would begin try and educate low dps players and "carry" them through the dungeon.

Cherryblossom

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

so glad we don't have addons for these kind of elitisms on consoles. if someone isn't doing dps you notice anyway? this only caters to elitist who would kick you because your DPS is like 10% lower then the min/max builds have

How exactly do you notice that someone is not pulling good enough DPS? No Truly you have said you can tell please explain exactly how you can tell. If you can't explain this then your point is invalid.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You can tell because the boss' health doesn't go down. Easy enough.
The problem is when people start pretending that anything under 15K DPS "isn't enough DPS" which is not true. Still they'll kick if there is an addon like GroupDamage.

The bosses health not going down just says that someone or everyone is not doing enough DPS, it does not show who! Without who, how can you decide the issue and how best to proceed.

Cherryblossom wrote: »

As I've mentioned actual Elite players are not doing PUGS they are in a progression guilds running the hardest content and need to know they are good, so once again an invalid point.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

You lack field experience ;-) Elite players DO PUG, because they have multiple alts, like to run pledges on all their alts to collect their undaunted gear asap, and do not necessarily have enough fellow guild members available at any given time.
This isn't necessarily a problem though, because most elite players do NOT expect a PUG group to perform like they do. It's rather the opposite : they know they can compensate for poor DPS so they are usually relaxed.
The true problem comes from the "wannabe elite" who don't even have a guild and PUG all the time while imposing high, bloated and unnecessary DPS standards onto other PUG members. And there's plenty of those wannabes around, believe me.
They do it either for the pure enjoyment of feeling superior to others or for the sake of completing the pledges extremely quickly. They do not consider other players like team members, but as tools for their own goals.

Played a fair few MMO, I'm still to meet the Mythical Elitest you refer to, even though I PUG a lot as I don't have a guild.

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Would you suggest that you don't see the Stupid that some people stand in so they don't get kicked for not being as quite aware as others!

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Nobody deserves to be kicked for dying once or even a couple of times to red circles, in PUGs some players are discovering the dungeons and must be aware of many if not too many things at once. Unless it is obvious sabotage, nobody should be kicked for that.
People who want guaranteed quick, flawless pledge runs SHOULD NOT PUG.

Sorry I disagree, someone who continously stands in stupid and dies, even after being told on numerous occassions should be kicked as they do not have the necessary intelligence to complete the content. This is not an elitest view this is a self preservation and not wanting to waste ones time due to someone else being incompetent.

anitajoneb17_ESO

OLIVI3R wrote: »

I (As in, myself) do not want to have a low DPS in my team, as this way he will surely drag the team down.

"Flaming" and "Harrasment" can happen without group DPS addons- let's say YOU do 8k dps on first boss in vWGT (example). That would mean that WE (as in, the rest of the group) would ask you to post your DPS stats (This is because low DPS takes more time for the boss ^_^). And then YOU (as in, you) will be kicked and a viable substitute will be found.

Therefore, such addons just save time and nerves for everone, doubt that you think that without this addon people would begin try and educate low dps players and "carry" them through the dungeon.

There are over 40 pages of more or less valid points and counter points about this spread over at least 6 topics - so please just read them because it somehow pointless to repeat the same things over and over again. Helping, kicking, selecting, PUGging, dragging groups down, etc... all this has been discussed from A to Z and backwards too.

What bugs me a little is how people defending GroupDamage always insist that it makes no difference (because they'd have known anyway) while also insisting on how badly they need it because it makes such a huge difference...

.

Enodoc

OLIVI3R wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

OLIVI3R wrote: »

BRING IT BACK PLEASE!

Such addons only bring more challenge and competitiveness into those dull trials/dungeons, and competition is what makes you progress and have fun.

Let me explain :

- Such addons can bring more challenge to the ones who use it this way, but harm a lot those who don't use it this way.
- Competition is what makes YOU (I mean YOU, not generic) progress and have fun. Not everyone likes competition.
- Diversity is what makes ME (I mean ME, not generic) progress and have fun. Such an addon is very likely to promote "almighty DPS" as the only measurement of performance, and thus kill the diversity I like (and already is jeopardized enough as it is).

.

I (As in, myself) do not want to have a low DPS in my team, as this way he will surely drag the team down.

"Flaming" and "Harrasment" can happen without group DPS addons- let's say YOU do 8k dps on first boss in vWGT (example). That would mean that WE (as in, the rest of the group) would ask you to post your DPS stats (This is because low DPS takes more time for the boss ^_^). And then YOU (as in, you) will be kicked and a viable substitute will be found.

Therefore, such addons just save time and nerves for everone, doubt that you think that without this addon people would begin try and educate low dps players and "carry" them through the dungeon.

It doesn't save nerves if this add-on results in them being kicked without explanation. I'd be nervous about ever joining a group again if I got repeatedly kicked by people using this add-on to see my DPS but they didn't explain that to me. At least in your situation there you have consciously given your DPS info, so a kick without explanation immediately after that would be pretty self-explanatory (but just as rude).

Draxys

I don't even pve enough to have this affect me, but there's no good reason to ban it. All the things they think it causes happen anyway, just in a more roundabout way. Classic case of misunderstanding the difference between causation and correlation.

Cherryblossom

Discord_Days wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

The problem is when people start pretending that anything under 15K DPS "isn't enough DPS" which is not true. Still they'll kick if there is an addon like GroupDamage.

Frankly, I've grown tired of this "boogeyman argument". This "Someone might be kicked because of this addon!" nonsense. Show me that this is a problem that the addon would exacerbate. Show me that this is anything but rare. Show me that this is something that wouldn't be happening anyway because jerks will be jerks.

You've argued that the addon should be disallowed because there is the potential for abuse. We don't accept that argument, just as we don't accept that people should be jailed because they might commit a crime, not because they have. The burden of proof is on you, and you have never provided anything beyond imagined worst-case scenarios.

The proof is something you can find by looking at how it went in other MMORPG's where players have access to this kind of addons.
WoW being a good example, how this created a toxicity inside the community once the dps-meter addons like recount/skada etc became a mainstream thing. You were worth nothing unless you could deliver top-dps. And this was not some isolated incidents but many raids and groups had at least one person (usually the leaders) who had this kind of attitude.

You mean the most popular MMO with the most amount of Subs has been destroyed by Group DPS meters???????

I think you reasoning is flawed!!!!!!!!

It may not be what you want, but it seems to be giving MMO players all the tools they require seems to be a winner for WOW!

Sadly poor UI very little information doesn't seem to be a winner for ESO! Just saying.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cherryblossom wrote: »

You mean the most popular MMO with the most amount of Subs has been destroyed by Group DPS meters???????

I think you reasoning is flawed!!!!!!!!

It may not be what you want, but it seems to be giving MMO players all the tools they require seems to be a winner for WOW!

Sadly poor UI very little information doesn't seem to be a winner for ESO! Just saying.

It seems quite obvious to me that ESO targets a totally different player profile and market segment than WoW, and rightly so, because as far as I know no WoW clone has ever succeeded.
That implies not following the allDPS + allCalculations + clutteredUI WoW system.

.

Cherryblossom

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

You mean the most popular MMO with the most amount of Subs has been destroyed by Group DPS meters???????

I think you reasoning is flawed!!!!!!!!

It may not be what you want, but it seems to be giving MMO players all the tools they require seems to be a winner for WOW!

Sadly poor UI very little information doesn't seem to be a winner for ESO! Just saying.

It seems quite obvious to me that ESO targets a totally different player profile and market segment than WoW, and rightly so, because as far as I know no WoW clone has ever succeeded.
That implies not following the allDPS + allCalculations + clutteredUI WoW system.

.

neither has ESO Succeeded! May be it would if it gave the options which once made ESO franchise so popular in the first place...I mean the Addon Community!

anitajoneb17_ESO

Cherryblossom wrote: »

neither has ESO Succeeded!

Source ? Criteria ?

Cherryblossom wrote: »

May be it would if it gave the options which once made ESO franchise so popular in the first place...I mean the Addon Community!

Like ESO has no or little addons... LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Need I explain that addons are more of a touchy subject in an MMO than in a single-player game ? And that your argument is more than totally inadequate ?

.

failkiwib16_ESO

Most experienced veteran players I know can actually see wether or not a team mate is fullfilling his role good or bad, and don't need an addon for this purpose.

Sorc overload heavy attack on mobs, no aoe skills slotted, no single target skills slotted, tank with resto + dw and no taunt, healer in full heavy armor & more busy doing restoration heavy attacks than putting out heals, DD's wearing Maw of The Infernal set ...and the list goes on and on.

I really don't need an addon to tell me that these players aren't contributing to anything in my team, other than serving as extra meatbag to draw some aggro, while the rest of the team clears the dungeon. I want that addon to better analyze how much my own minions put out and how much they need to improve. Stuff like are they pulling 12k or 17k on a particular boss, because that difference can be hard to notice, if the low dps player is good (not standing in stupid, doing mistakes etc.) and the other DD in group pulls 25k+

This addon allowed those numbers to be shown, without having to ask them to install FTC and post their dps in groupchat after each damn bossfight.

Reznique

Enodoc wrote: »

OLIVI3R wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

OLIVI3R wrote: »

BRING IT BACK PLEASE!

Such addons only bring more challenge and competitiveness into those dull trials/dungeons, and competition is what makes you progress and have fun.

Let me explain :

- Such addons can bring more challenge to the ones who use it this way, but harm a lot those who don't use it this way.
- Competition is what makes YOU (I mean YOU, not generic) progress and have fun. Not everyone likes competition.
- Diversity is what makes ME (I mean ME, not generic) progress and have fun. Such an addon is very likely to promote "almighty DPS" as the only measurement of performance, and thus kill the diversity I like (and already is jeopardized enough as it is).

.

I (As in, myself) do not want to have a low DPS in my team, as this way he will surely drag the team down.

"Flaming" and "Harrasment" can happen without group DPS addons- let's say YOU do 8k dps on first boss in vWGT (example). That would mean that WE (as in, the rest of the group) would ask you to post your DPS stats (This is because low DPS takes more time for the boss ^_^). And then YOU (as in, you) will be kicked and a viable substitute will be found.

Therefore, such addons just save time and nerves for everone, doubt that you think that without this addon people would begin try and educate low dps players and "carry" them through the dungeon.

It doesn't save nerves if this add-on results in them being kicked without explanation. I'd be nervous about ever joining a group again if I got repeatedly kicked by people using this add-on to see my DPS but they didn't explain that to me. At least in your situation there you have consciously given your DPS info, so a kick without explanation immediately after that would be pretty self-explanatory (but just as rude).

"... if this add-on results in them being kicked without explanation."

So this add-on has to be banned just because there is a chance that someone will be kicked without explanation and become upset?

IMO, the chances that someone will become upset after an enemy faction member w/ him/her are much greater than if they would be kicked without explanation (because, from my experience- most groups do actually explain why the member is not suitable for continuation).

Cuyler

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Cherryblossom wrote: »

You mean the most popular MMO with the most amount of Subs has been destroyed by Group DPS meters???????

I think you reasoning is flawed!!!!!!!!

It may not be what you want, but it seems to be giving MMO players all the tools they require seems to be a winner for WOW!

Sadly poor UI very little information doesn't seem to be a winner for ESO! Just saying.

It seems quite obvious to me that ESO targets a totally different player profile and market segment than WoW, and rightly so, because as far as I know no WoW clone has ever succeeded.
That implies not following the allDPS + allCalculations + clutteredUI WoW system.

I respect your opinion, however your biased as far as to condemn all competition as some sort of evil and correlate the success of ESO to this. You're wrong. Competition is not a bad thing Anita. The fact is competition can be healthy/fun/rewarding too.

ESO's success is not directly correlated to a business model to support casual players specifically, but based simply off the effect it has when an enormous fan base comes from previous ES titles which just so happens to be casual. Having support for both demographics would bring that much more success.

There are other successful MMOs that support competition, have these open API features and have stood the test of time. ZOS is forced into the casual business model. It's not like they have a choice in the matter when the player base consists of mostly ES solo, casual players evidenced in thread after thread here on the forums.

You simply chose one of the few MMOs that supports a non-competitive play style. Your decision to chose ESO was right, because it fits with your play style. Competitive players make the wrong choice by playing ESO, because ZOS/Beth or whoever actually made this decision doesn't support us. So you're right in that regard.

ESO is still just an infant in comparison and the real effect of these decisions has yet to unfold. I'm interested to see how successful ESO is after ES6 releases when the mass of casual ES players will potentially leave ESO behind.

The decision to support or not support healthy competition by providing useful API information (like groupdamge) is neither right nor wrong. It's simply the companies opinion ("spying") and the market they chose to support (casual). ZOS simply chose not to support the competitive players in this game and that decision has and will continue to have repercussions of its own.

Apparently ZOS is banking on the casuals not leaving for ES6 and providing longevity for the game, because I know for sure that many of the competitive types that would stick around have little incentive to do so, are now leaving and/or are considering it.

Lenikus

If you know the very basic of the game mechanics, you can tell if someone is doing good or bad DPS just by looking at them. you don't need an Addon. Unless you know nothing about the classes and skills they are using, then yea, you need addons to tell you what is what.
And if you need an addon to point you these things, you don't deserve your spot in a 'end game raid' any more than the guy who does 4k dps.

Reznique

Lenikus wrote: »

If you know the very basic of the game mechanics, you can tell if someone is doing good or bad DPS just by looking at them. you don't need an Addon. Unless you know nothing about the classes and skills they are using, then yea, you need addons to tell you what is what.
And if you need an addon to point you these things, you don't deserve your spot in a 'end game raid' any more than the guy who does 4k dps.

You know, people do end game content for generally 3 thing:

1) Loot
2) Leaderboards
3) Achievements
and all this can be considered "fun".

Nobody does end game content to spot bad players and kick them. Thats not why those addons were used.

P.S.- those addons were not even created to be used in this way ^_^, they are meant to bring a sense of competition (competition=fun)

Enodoc

OLIVI3R wrote: »

So this add-on has to be banned just because there is a chance that someone will be kicked without explanation and become upset?

Um, no, "this add-on has to be banned" because it was using API data which should not have ever existed. My comment was specifically in reply to yours about what could make people nervous.

eventide03b14a_ESO

The problem with a DPS meter in a game like ESO is that you need your DPS to do other things than just damage. Like res or off heal or cast defensive ults. If you make it an environment where you are getting judged solely on the DPS you are doing then you are creating a culture of competition within a group that is supposed to be cooperative. You better believe there will be people who don't res because they want to be at the top with their numbers. Is this the kind of game you want to play?

Cuyler

Enodoc wrote: »

OLIVI3R wrote: »

So this add-on has to be banned just because there is a chance that someone will be kicked without explanation and become upset?

Um, no, "this add-on has to be banned" because it was using API data which should not have ever existed. My comment was specifically in reply to yours about what could make people nervous.

Edit: [snip]. The reason was not [only] because it was unintended. The official response from the company is very easily interpreted.

They had a discussion about it [snip]. The result of that discussion produced [additional] reasons for reverting the availability the unintended API data. The reasons provided by the official response were:

1. "this type of addon isn’t in the spirit of our game and encourages spying on other players without their permission."; and
2. "we don’t want players being evaluated and discriminated against based on data they don’t know is being broadcast."

So yes, @OLIVI3R is right, the reason [also includes] because people would be discriminated without explanation (which he also insightfully points out is only a chance).

Enodoc

Cuyler wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

OLIVI3R wrote: »

So this add-on has to be banned just because there is a chance that someone will be kicked without explanation and become upset?

Um, no, "this add-on has to be banned" because it was using API data which should not have ever existed. My comment was specifically in reply to yours about what could make people nervous.

Wrong. The reason was not because it was unintended. The official response from the company is very easily interpreted.

They had a discussion. The result of that discussion produced the reason for reverting the availability the unintended API data. The reasons provided by the official response were:

1. "this type of addon isn’t in the spirit of our game and encourages spying on other players without their permission."; and
2. "we don’t want players being evaluated and discriminated against based on data they don’t know is being broadcast."

So yes, OLIVI3R is right, the reason is because people would be discriminated without explanation.

OK so a double reason. The initial discussion arose because it was unintended, the results of the discussion were that it was discriminatory. So they removed it because it was both unintended and discriminatory. If it was intended yet discriminatory, or unintended yet not discriminatory, they would probably have tried something different to make it work. And the implication is that the discussion is still ongoing to see if they can find a way to remove the discriminatory aspects.

Cuyler

Enodoc wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

OLIVI3R wrote: »

So this add-on has to be banned just because there is a chance that someone will be kicked without explanation and become upset?

Um, no, "this add-on has to be banned" because it was using API data which should not have ever existed. My comment was specifically in reply to yours about what could make people nervous.

Wrong. The reason was not because it was unintended. The official response from the company is very easily interpreted.

They had a discussion. The result of that discussion produced the reason for reverting the availability the unintended API data. The reasons provided by the official response were:

1. "this type of addon isn’t in the spirit of our game and encourages spying on other players without their permission."; and
2. "we don’t want players being evaluated and discriminated against based on data they don’t know is being broadcast."

So yes, OLIVI3R is right, the reason is because people would be discriminated without explanation.

OK so a double reason. The initial discussion arose because it was unintended, the results of the discussion were that it was discriminatory. So they removed it because it was both unintended and discriminatory. If it was intended yet discriminatory, or unintended yet not discriminatory, they would probably have tried something different to make it work. And the implication is that the discussion is still ongoing to see if they can find a way to remove the discriminatory aspects.

Agreed. Thank you for your clarification. And I've edited my post to clarify this as well.

Xexpo

I would have taken the IDC option. So I didn't vote.

Very interesting that it's pretty much split 50/50 after 330 votes imo...
So much for all that "most of us want X" talk.

Troneon

There was nothing wrong with this addon, it was a help tool nothing more nothing less.

It works the same as master merchant does, in fact master merchant is even more invasive with personal data than group damage was....but you don't see crying about that do you?

The problem comes with the PLAYERS who MISS USE IT for ELITISM.

Do you ban something for everyone because a few silly people who miss use it? No you shouldn't...if you did that all the time no one would get anything at all....you might as well ban everything...

It's a tool to help people, use it or don't, if anything it helps you see who the real *** bags are who miss treat others and who the sensible players are who help others improve their builds without forcing opinions on others...

Malmai

We need it back.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Troneon wrote: »

There was nothing wrong with this addon, it was a help tool nothing more nothing less.

It works the same as master merchant does, in fact master merchant is even more invasive with personal data than group damage was....but you don't see crying about that do you?

The problem comes with the PLAYERS who MISS USE IT for ELITISM.

Do you ban something for everyone because a few silly people who miss use it? No you shouldn't...if you did that all the time no one would get anything at all....you might as well ban everything...

It's a tool to help people, use it or don't, if anything it helps you see who the real *** bags are who miss treat others and who the sensible players are who help others improve their builds without forcing opinions on others...

You can't police who will use it or misuse it. If you guys really want a DPS meter then have people willingly download an addon that does it and then have them post their numbers. It's not like you can't get the information it just means you need consent to get it. That's the way it should be.

Thelon

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

you need consent to get it. That's the way it should be.

code65536

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

What bugs me a little is how people defending GroupDamage always insist that it makes no difference (because they'd have known anyway) while also insisting on how badly they need it because it makes such a huge difference...

Good point. And allow me to address that specifically.

In the context of kicking bad players, this addon would make no difference. We can tell when someone is doing terrible DPS by just looking at them. Toxic a--holes who act like jerks will do so with or without this addon. Hell, I met one of these people last night in a pledge PUG, and I'm sure if he had crown, he would've booted me and the other people he was swearing at and blaming (mostly to cover for the mistakes that he made). This person was swearing at me in whispers, telling me how much of a newbie I am, even though I had gotten speed-run and no-death on vCoH months ago and had farmed that dungeon countless times. That's because jerks will be jerks, with or without the addon and regardless of whether the person they're attacking is a newbie or a seasoned player who's done that dungeon countless times.

In the context of supporting high-end play, this addon does make a huge difference. I don't use it to kick people from PUGs. I use it to see how I'm doing compared to other good players in guild groups. The real-time telemetry from GroupDamage is simply superior and far more useful than the single regurgitated number that FTC belches out at the end of a fight. It shows total damage and damage share. It lets me see how I'm doing compared to other good players--am I keeping up or lagging behind? And it lets me see this for all fights (or, hell, even for the entire dungeon), at all times. There is a lot of useful information and context that other addons are simply unable to provide.

So, yes, it's both inconsequential and invaluable at the same time. It's inconsequential in the scenarios that you are worried about, and it's invaluable in the scenarios that we care about. And, frankly, I don't give a damn about how others do when I PUG (beyond curiosity), because if I did, I wouldn't be in that PUG in the first place.

Troneon

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Troneon wrote: »

There was nothing wrong with this addon, it was a help tool nothing more nothing less.

It works the same as master merchant does, in fact master merchant is even more invasive with personal data than group damage was....but you don't see crying about that do you?

The problem comes with the PLAYERS who MISS USE IT for ELITISM.

Do you ban something for everyone because a few silly people who miss use it? No you shouldn't...if you did that all the time no one would get anything at all....you might as well ban everything...

It's a tool to help people, use it or don't, if anything it helps you see who the real *** bags are who miss treat others and who the sensible players are who help others improve their builds without forcing opinions on others...

You can't police who will use it or misuse it. If you guys really want a DPS meter then have people willingly download an addon that does it and then have them post their numbers. It's not like you can't get the information it just means you need consent to get it. That's the way it should be.

@eventide03b14a_ESO

Then ban the spyaddon master merchant too then?

so silly...

anitajoneb17_ESO

code65536 wrote: »

In the context of kicking bad players, this addon would make no difference. We can tell when someone is doing terrible DPS by just looking at them. Toxic a--holes who act like jerks will do so with or without this addon. Hell, I met one of these people last night in a pledge PUG, and I'm sure if he had crown, he would've booted me and the other people he was swearing at and blaming (mostly to cover for the mistakes that he made). This person was swearing at me in whispers, telling me how much of a newbie I am, even though I had gotten speed-run and no-death on vCoH months ago and had farmed that dungeon countless times. That's because jerks will be jerks, with or without the addon and regardless of whether the person they're attacking is a newbie or a seasoned player who's done that dungeon countless times.

In the context of supporting high-end play, this addon does make a huge difference. I don't use it to kick people from PUGs. I use it to see how I'm doing compared to other good players in guild groups. The real-time telemetry from GroupDamage is simply superior and far more useful than the single regurgitated number that FTC belches out at the end of a fight. It shows total damage and damage share. It lets me see how I'm doing compared to other good players--am I keeping up or lagging behind? And it lets me see this for all fights (or, hell, even for the entire dungeon), at all times. There is a lot of useful information and context that other addons are simply unable to provide.

So, yes, it's both inconsequential and invaluable at the same time. It's inconsequential in the scenarios that you are worried about, and it's invaluable in the scenarios that we care about. And, frankly, I don't give a damn about how others do when I PUG (beyond curiosity), because if I did, I wouldn't be in that PUG in the first place.

All fair and nicely put, but very binary. I won't go into details (there are over 30 pages of that already in various topics). Between your two "black and white" extremes there are 90% of the ESO population who would be badly influenced by that add-on, either encouraged to be jerks or encouraged to measure everything according to DPS, or whatever particular situation you can think of.

.

code65536

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Between your two "black and white" extremes there are 90% of the ESO population who would be badly influenced by that add-on, either encouraged to be jerks

I highly doubt that I'm the one speaking in extremes.

Are you really so cynical that you have zero faith in people making good judgments for themselves? That you hold so dearly this deeply misanthropic conviction that good people will turn "bad" because of an addon? I've met very good people playing this game, and I refuse to insult them by proclaiming that most of their personal character is so fragile and superficial that it could be so easily corrupted as you so claim.

So, no, I fully reject your argument, and I will continue to do so unless solid evidence--not these conjectures revolving around imagined threats--convinces me otherwise. Innocent until proven guilty.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

or encouraged to measure everything according to DPS, or whatever particular situation you can think of.

People already measure a lot by DPS. Anyone with FTC can see their damage numbers, and top-end guilds already require measuring of DPS. A group damage addon would not change any of that. However, it will add much-needed context, so that when DPS is measured, it's measured in a much more useful and meaningful way. You'll never get people to stop measuring stuff like that. So why do you want to take away tools that let them measure it well and instead leave them with clunky tools that give skewed data with poor context? Your argument here is no better than the flawed argument that teaching people about safe sex will promote dangerous behavior.

For example, how much DPS does a dead DPS do? Zero. With GroupDamage, you can see how people do in the entire dungeon/trial. So instead of posting a DPS on a good 20-second burn, which tells us very little, you can see the overall total damage they did the entire encounter, which takes into account a lot more factors, including all the times they died because they have poor mechanical awareness.