Do you want group damage to return?

eventide03b14a_ESO · February 2016

Function wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Function wrote: »

This addon was displaying the correct numbers, here is an SO hardmode parse with the total damage circled from both GroupDamage and FTC.. you can see they are the same (the DPS was different because GroupDamage had a longer end of combat stop).

OK thanks for that.
Then we'll have to find another explanation as to why @coolmodi (and he's not the only one) repeatedly says that he cannot do more than 8K DPS at Lvl40 scaled to VR16 and that most other DPS average 3K and not more. That's a mystery.

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Its not that unbelievable, the other day I helped a buddy of mine complete the vet pledge with two pug DPS which both were doing incredibly low DPS (cant say how much for sure since GroupDamage was disabled at this point). One of them was a sorcerer which spammed mages wrath (the execute ability) when the monster was full health and also using elemental ring (the AoE ability) on single targets. The other (I cannot recall the class) was spamming light attacks on each mob with the occasional cleave ability. It was a fairly rough experience, we managed to kill the engine guardian in a little over nine minutes.. which I believe was mostly only due to my buddy (the tank) switching to DPS for that fight.

You don't need an addon to tell you their DPS was terrible.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

but i wonder, why the desire not to share your performance with a group you have willingly joined, whether in the finder tool or in zone? surly the fear can not truly be about getting kicked for bad performance. i have been kicked for being a dragonknight tank. others i have heard of being kicked for the most ridiculous of reasons.

What surprises me is that you don't seem to mind being kicked (beyond the annoyance of having to find another group).
You really don't mind having people tell you to GTFO for no reason, or for no valid reason, or even for a valid reason ? I think that is extremely rude, brutal even, and rudeness is not something I feel lighthearted about. The fact that we have no other choice but to suck it up doesn't make it acceptable.

I tried to explain in another thread how certain types of players react very negatively to this and why, but it all lead to most people judging / insulting rather than trying to understand it, so I will not try that again...

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

but i do wonder if there is anyway to prove either of our assertions regarding the points we hold? do these addons lead to more elitism, or is it just the nature of competition and rude people being rude? how would one measure or test this? it would be nice if ZOS gave the statistics behind their decision, if such information existed. i have seen papers in academia that talk about in game behavior, but the methods used to arrive at any conclusion are almost all based on brief observation and interview like questionnaires, not exceptionally reliable. as i recall there are such works for both good and bad tendencies being highlighted...

Even if such studies existed, specifically for ESO, people would start questioning samples, methodologies and bias to invalidate the results if they didn't confirm their own opinion (on either side). Same would happen if ZOS gave us more insight into their decisions for the game (and not only this one).

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Kyoma · February 2016

This poll should've had the option of "Yes but only with an opt-in settings"

Shunravi · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

What surprises me is that you don't seem to mind being kicked (beyond the annoyance of having to find another group).
You really don't mind having people tell you to GTFO for no reason, or for no valid reason, or even for a valid reason ? I think that is extremely rude, brutal even, and rudeness is not something I feel lighthearted about. The fact that we have no other choice but to suck it up doesn't make it acceptable.

What supprises me is that that supprises you.

I know I have no issue with it. If people don't want me in their group that is their choice. Why should I feel offended about that?

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

Shunravi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

What surprises me is that you don't seem to mind being kicked (beyond the annoyance of having to find another group).
You really don't mind having people tell you to GTFO for no reason, or for no valid reason, or even for a valid reason ? I think that is extremely rude, brutal even, and rudeness is not something I feel lighthearted about. The fact that we have no other choice but to suck it up doesn't make it acceptable.

What supprises me is that that supprises you.

I know I have no issue with it. If people don't want me in their group that is their choice. Why should I feel offended about that?

Because it's rejection. You can twist it or ignore it or "thick-skin" it the way you want, it's still rejection, and certainly should not be accepted as "anyone's free choice". Unless of course you enjoy being treated like a dog.

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timidobserver · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

What surprises me is that you don't seem to mind being kicked (beyond the annoyance of having to find another group).
You really don't mind having people tell you to GTFO for no reason, or for no valid reason, or even for a valid reason ? I think that is extremely rude, brutal even, and rudeness is not something I feel lighthearted about. The fact that we have no other choice but to suck it up doesn't make it acceptable.

What supprises me is that that supprises you.

I know I have no issue with it. If people don't want me in their group that is their choice. Why should I feel offended about that?

Because it's rejection. You can twist it or ignore it or "thick-skin" it the way you want, it's still rejection, and certainly should not be accepted as "anyone's free choice". Unless of course you enjoy being treated like a dog.

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With this sort of thing there is two typically reactions.
1. The people that will take steps to try to force people into being around them.
2. The people that have no desire to be around people that don't want them around.

Shunravi · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

What surprises me is that you don't seem to mind being kicked (beyond the annoyance of having to find another group).
You really don't mind having people tell you to GTFO for no reason, or for no valid reason, or even for a valid reason ? I think that is extremely rude, brutal even, and rudeness is not something I feel lighthearted about. The fact that we have no other choice but to suck it up doesn't make it acceptable.

What supprises me is that that supprises you.

I know I have no issue with it. If people don't want me in their group that is their choice. Why should I feel offended about that?

Because it's rejection. You can twist it or ignore it or "thick-skin" it the way you want, it's still rejection, and certainly should not be accepted as "anyone's free choice". Unless of course you enjoy being treated like a dog.

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See, i find yours a rather interesting perspective. For me, its not ignoring it, or thick skinning it, or whatever other coping mechanism there may be. I just move on and keep playing the game. I dont hold anything against a person if they make this kind of choice. I guess its just that i dont mind? That probably just on me though.

Whatever... I felt i should include my first thought on seeing 'rejection', skewed though it may be. I guess I have no need to be accepted, or at least i dont feel 'showing up' is cause to force others into a situation they may not like. I dunno, i guess i just have few problems with rejection. But this is in my case, and i just dont fully understand the hurt.

And i prefer to be treated like a cat thank you very much. And that includes being pampered on my terms, have others clean my litterbox, and a tendency to 'be' on warm things. Like red circles of death.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

With this sort of thing there is two typically reactions.
1. The people that will take steps to try to force people into being around them.
2. The people that have no desire to be around people that don't want them around.

Lol !!! ;-)
Your "first situation" doesn't exist since the rejected person is thrown out by force. Your "second situation" is not relevant because noone cared about the rejected person's desire.
May I remind you that we are talking about a "Looking For Group Tool" in an MMO ?
People who are not ready to play happily with whoever comes up via the tool should not use the tool, end of story.
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Shunravi · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

With this sort of thing there is two typically reactions.
1. The people that will take steps to try to force people into being around them.
2. The people that have no desire to be around people that don't want them around.

Lol !!! ;-)
Your "first situation" doesn't exist since the rejected person is thrown out by force. Your "second situation" is not relevant because noone cared about the rejected person's desire.
May I remind you that we are talking about a "Looking For Group Tool" in an MMO ?
People who are not ready to play happily with whoever comes up via the tool should not use the tool, end of story.
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Your arguments sound an awful lot like the first situation, so im pretty sure that exists.

Im in the second situation. Desire it irrelavent.

Im going to argue semantics on your last bit, because i can see 'play happily' as also being playing along with the risks of the groupfinder, and you should be happy with possible rejection. If you cannot play happily with the rest of the population and accept getting kicked as part of that, then you should not use the groupfinder.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

Shunravi wrote: »

Im going to argue semantics on your last bit, because i can see 'play happily' as also being playing along with the risks of the groupfinder, and you should be happy with possible rejection. If you cannot play happily with the rest of the population and accept getting kicked as part of that, then you should not use the groupfinder.

Whatever semantics games you like to play, truth is, the group finder is a tool meant to put people together based on a common goal : run a dungeon. It's NOT meant to be a pre-selection room of teammates for the one who happens to have the crown.
Like it or not, that's how it is. And that's how ZOS sees it. Anything else is abuse.

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Shunravi · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

Im going to argue semantics on your last bit, because i can see 'play happily' as also being playing along with the risks of the groupfinder, and you should be happy with possible rejection. If you cannot play happily with the rest of the population and accept getting kicked as part of that, then you should not use the groupfinder.

Whatever semantics games you like to play, truth is, the group finder is a tool meant to put people together based on a common goal : run a dungeon. It's NOT meant to be a pre-selection room of teammates for the one who happens to have the crown.
Like it or not, that's how it is. And that's how ZOS sees it. Anything else is abuse.

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And thats simply not how it works. You can try to keep people forced together with your arguments, but the simple truth is that the ability to kick exists, and any use of said ability is standard use untill zos changes how it works. Call it abuse all you want, but it is also abusive to expect people to keep you in group because you are there.

And im talking abusive behavior, not abuse of the mechanic.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

Let's agree to disagree then ! But I'm happy that 99,9% of the people I group with via LFG don't share your views ;-)

(Btw, just to make sure there's no misunderstanding - though I know you're baiting a bit - : I don't expect people to "keep ME because I'm there" but to keep anyone because that's what they signed up for while queuing up in the LFG tool).

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Cuyler · February 2016

I'M STILL SPYING ON YOU PUGS!

Shunravi · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Let's agree to disagree then ! But I'm happy that 99,9% of the people I group with via LFG don't share your views ;-)

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Who said anything about sharing my views? This is a discussion on the validity of the group kick. So 99.9% get pissed (to the point of leaving the game for a week as said in a previous thread?) interesting. I immagine they stay in the finder for the next group. But i havent polled them, and neither have you btw.

You actually dont know what their opinion is on the subject. For all you know 99.9% of them agree with my casual go with the flow take on the subject. As in, 'i dont care' rather than your 'everyone must group with me because i showed up'. But we dont know.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

Shunravi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Let's agree to disagree then ! But I'm happy that 99,9% of the people I group with via LFG don't share your views ;-)

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Who said anything about sharing my views? This is a discussion on the validity of the group kick. So 99.9% get pissed (to the point of leaving the game for a week as said in a previous thread?) interesting. I immagine they stay in the finder for the next group. But i havent polled them, and neither have you btw.

You actually dont know what their opinion is on the subject. For all you know 99.9% of them agree with my casual go with the flow take on the subject. As in, 'i dont care' rather than your 'everyone must group with me because i showed up'. But we dont know.

Okay let me rephrase : "I'm happy that apparently 99.9% of the people I group with via LFG don't feel entitled to kick anyone, even weaker players, because it happens extremely rarely and people feel committed to complete the dungeon with the group they've started with via LFG, as it should be".
That's how I meant it.

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Shunravi · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Let's agree to disagree then ! But I'm happy that 99,9% of the people I group with via LFG don't share your views ;-)

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Who said anything about sharing my views? This is a discussion on the validity of the group kick. So 99.9% get pissed (to the point of leaving the game for a week as said in a previous thread?) interesting. I immagine they stay in the finder for the next group. But i havent polled them, and neither have you btw.

You actually dont know what their opinion is on the subject. For all you know 99.9% of them agree with my casual go with the flow take on the subject. As in, 'i dont care' rather than your 'everyone must group with me because i showed up'. But we dont know.

Okay let me rephrase : "I'm happy that apparently 99.9% of the people I group with via LFG don't feel entitled to kick anyone, even weaker players, because it happens extremely rarely and people feel committed to complete the dungeon with the group they've started with via LFG, as it should be".
That's how I meant it.

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Yes, i agree. As someone who never kicks, and will spend the entirety of my time if need be wiping on mechanics to get someone a complete, i too find it good that most people dont kick. They have every right to though.

Thelon · February 2016

Cuyler wrote: »

I'M STILL SPYING ON YOU PUGS!

timidobserver · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

With this sort of thing there is two typically reactions.
1. The people that will take steps to try to force people into being around them.
2. The people that have no desire to be around people that don't want them around.

Lol !!! ;-)
Your "first situation" doesn't exist since the rejected person is thrown out by force. Your "second situation" is not relevant because noone cared about the rejected person's desire.
May I remind you that we are talking about a "Looking For Group Tool" in an MMO ?
People who are not ready to play happily with whoever comes up via the tool should not use the tool, end of story.
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It definitely applies. The people in group two, like myself, are more than happy to leave any group they are not wanted in. I would rather delete the game than force my presence on other players that don't want me in their group, regardless of the reason.

The people in group one, like you, desire to be in groups that don't want them. That is basically the whole point of this endless debate. Yeh there is small group of people that want their data private just on principle, but most people against this add-on are upset that they will be kicked from groups. You have said yourself that you would quit the game for a week over being kicked from a group. I personally just don't have the ability to understand people with this kind of mindset.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

The people in group two, like myself, are more than happy to leave any group they are not wanted in. I would rather delete the game than force my presence on other players that don't want me in their group, regardless of the reason.

LOL. Just remember that next time you're abusively kicked for no reason.
If you think it is "normal" ... I'm sorry you have such a low self-esteem, but as long as you're happy with it...

(The rest of your text is pure bait so I'll not bite).
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Bluepitbull13 · February 2016

Thelon wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

I'M STILL SPYING ON YOU PUGS!

timidobserver · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

The people in group two, like myself, are more than happy to leave any group they are not wanted in. I would rather delete the game than force my presence on other players that don't want me in their group, regardless of the reason.

LOL. Just remember that next time you're abusively kicked for no reason.
If you think it is "normal" ... I'm sorry you have such a low self-esteem, but as long as you're happy with it...

(The rest of your text is pure bait so I'll not bite).
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It is not bait it is an honest description of the whole reason this debate exists. People wanting to force their presence on others.

Who has lower self-esteem? The person comfortable with not being in groups they are not wanted in or the person taking steps to have addons banned because they are emotionally distraught enough to quit the game for a week over being kicked from group.

Shunravi · February 2016

Nvm

Bluepitbull13 · February 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

It is not bait it is an honest description of the whole reason this debate exists. People wanting to force their presence on others.

Who has lower self-esteem? The person comfortable with not being in groups they are not wanted in or the person taking steps to have addons banned because they are emotionally distraught enough to quit the game for a week over being kicked from group.

deadlock007 · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Shunravi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

What surprises me is that you don't seem to mind being kicked (beyond the annoyance of having to find another group).
You really don't mind having people tell you to GTFO for no reason, or for no valid reason, or even for a valid reason ? I think that is extremely rude, brutal even, and rudeness is not something I feel lighthearted about. The fact that we have no other choice but to suck it up doesn't make it acceptable.

What supprises me is that that supprises you.

I know I have no issue with it. If people don't want me in their group that is their choice. Why should I feel offended about that?

Because it's rejection. You can twist it or ignore it or "thick-skin" it the way you want, it's still rejection, and certainly should not be accepted as "anyone's free choice". Unless of course you enjoy being treated like a dog.

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I have been following these threads since they started and could not understand why you are so against an add-on that 1. doesn't affect you and 2. you don't even fully understand what all it did and how useful it was...... but this comment has shed a little light on whatever it is that has put you on your warpath against Group Damage.

anitajoneb17_ESO · February 2016

I guess I'll give up trying to explain anything.

GroupDamage is gone, that's all that matters. After all, if you don't need explanations as to why you're kicked from a group, you don't need to understand either why an add-on needed to go. Get over it.

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maxjapank · February 2016

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

but i wonder, why the desire not to share your performance with a group you have willingly joined, whether in the finder tool or in zone? surly the fear can not truly be about getting kicked for bad performance. i have been kicked for being a dragonknight tank. others i have heard of being kicked for the most ridiculous of reasons. i have kicked people for being exceptionally rude to others in group, although not a bad reason, the one being kicked probably did not appreciate my stance. i do see that some would use this information to taunt others, hence why i think it should be limited to only within a group so passers by could not see your info. but these same said would use anything to taunt you or be an a**. as far as the fears of elitism, i think you will find that type of attitude propagates, regardless of addons, in any game that has a way of recording your successes and how well said successes were achieved.

none of this i mind discussing with you, as to this point you have not misconstrued my words or inserted your own assertions to them unlike others in this disagreement. honest discussion is good. but i do wonder if there is anyway to prove either of our assertions regarding the points we hold? do these addons lead to more elitism, or is it just the nature of competition and rude people being rude? how would one measure or test this? it would be nice if ZOS gave the statistics behind their decision, if such information existed. i have seen papers in academia that talk about in game behavior, but the methods used to arrive at any conclusion are almost all based on brief observation and interview like questionnaires, not exceptionally reliable. as i recall there are such works for both good and bad tendencies being highlighted... i apologies but it has been a while since i have pursued this line of study so do not recall titles or authors off the top of my head.

the questions i advance are questions i would like your insight on. i would also like to thank you for this civil discourse.

@KallistaBlackheart I wanted to wait till I had a keyboard to write you back. Takes so much effort to tap away on my I-pad mini. But I will try to respond to some of the questions you asked.

I honestly cannot speak for everyone. But from my own personal experience, ESO has been a breath of fresh air in so many ways. One of those being no need for addons. It was admittedly a bit shocking at first, the minimalist UI, only 6 buttons per weapon swap, no percentages on health, magicka, and stam as you were fighting. It was shocking because before ESO, I played a warlock in wow. I had addons set up to show my dot timers. I got the timing and priority orders down. I practiced on dummies. I had recount. I couldn’t exist as a top dps without addons for information.

While playing and leveling in ESO, though, I began to experience some things I had missed. I was enjoying seeing stuff again. I was enjoying seeing the fights instead of keeping an eye on timers and cooldowns. I grew to love healing. And even as a healer, I could dps and help cc and bash mobs. Fights in ESO were engaging and stimulating. They weren't so much a dps race as they were paying attention to mechanics. The only important thing was keeping everyone alive and making sure everything was dead. Very simple in nature.

Now none of this speaks against a Group damage addon. It doesn't interfere with the mechanics or enjoyment so much of fights. Neither does a personal dps meter. But I do believe that the requirement or use of such an addon will detract from simple nature of "just enjoying beating the boss." And as there are no enrage timers, except for CoA, WGT and Prison, there really is no dps race.

As for feeling of fear in sharing my numbers with others, admittedly there is some. And there always will be. That's who I am. And yet I honestly don't mind sharing them if my guild or friends wanted me to. So I will always be in support of an "Option" for sharing. But I just don't think it should be something anyone can see. It creates an uncomfortable feeling for some, and I like how ESO has created a game that lets the solo or casual player enjoy group content without too much pressure.

I know some players think they will use a Group damage addon to help others. Some truly see it as a helping tool, and I’m sure they will make good use of it. But many in this thread and other threads are completely full of it. It isn’t hard to see from their choice of words when writing that they have absolutely no interest in helping anyone other than themselves and their own ego. But…I still believe in giving them the Option to share.

I’m not sure if I’ve answered all of your questions. But thank you as well for a civil discourse. I’ll probably keep trying to stay out of this discussion. I’m a bit exhausted from all of the bitterness that others keep displaying. But cheers to you.

The Uninvited · February 2016

I actually used it for self-improvement. Was running vICP and noticed that my dps was about 5k lower than the other dps every single time. The next day I respecced my build and gear and improved my dps significantly.

GeertKarel · February 2016

I am raiding quite often with players that haven't done a lot of pledges or other dungeons where you need a specific role.
What I really notice is the difference between how people are playing. A lot of the players are playing as they were in a solo area and have no experience at all in group content. With the group damage addon you could see if someone does barely dps and you have the option to ask why he does so low damage.

I've noticed that a lot of the people weren't wearing crafted sets, they just used sets they found randomly in the game.
You can either help them get a bit better and let them to get better with the role "damage dealer" because they are supposed to do damage.

But then again some people are just childish they want to play their way they don't care about others in the group. They play how they want it. I saw one guy doing 4k dps and I asked him nicely what kind of skills he was using. He answered to me that he puts a lot of buffs up and keeps on light attacking the monster. I gave him some tips to improve but he just gave a big "*** you" to my information that i provided.

so what do you expect from a DD? that class is meant to deal damage right?
A tank is supposed to hold aggro from the big mobs, if he doesn't do that the group will suffer badly.
A healer has to heal and support the group. Some healers don't want to be doing anything besides healing, they think you have to sustain themself. but in reality if they dont use spears, repentance or other buffs like elemental drain/orbs/combat prayer the group will suffer, tank can't hold aggro because no stamina means the adds will go towards the Damage dealers.
If the damage dealer does not doe decent amount of damage, the fight will take a really long time, it'll be more frustrating on the tank the healer also has to heal a lot more. The longer the fights goes on the harder it will become.

Many people ask me to do runs with them since I am damagedeal tanking kind of. I have no problems in helping someone to complete a dungeon with a player that is a really *** DD but when they want to improve, but people who dont want to get better. they just do it for fun even if a dungeon takes over 2 hours of wiping. And its soo sad that they are giving you a "big *** you" and they still ask you all the time if you want to do a dungeon with them. Ofcourse you are not willing to accept him in the group again, you've been in the dungeon for 2 hours with a lot of wiping what you actually could do in 15 minutes with a decent group that has 8-15k dps.

All in all if you're *** in dps 3-7k dps at vr16 and not really bothering to improve. Then stop doing group content with people that are expecting to have a chill and nice group dungeon run.

I think the group damage addon should be on. You don't need to have top dps 30k+ to complete things. People just expect you to fullfill your role and you can't really have a damage dealer that does 3-7k. Nowe days those "bad players" are often joining runs where the other dd is having a really good dps number, so it does not matter too much. but I feel the frustration off every player.

I think they should enable group damage addon so everyone in the game could see what everyone is doing. And I agree that dps is not everything, its about avoiding the things you need to avoid and understanding how certain tactics work.
The ppl who aren't as good as others will see their dps and they can compare it to other players. If you really want to improve you could always ask him, he can maybe refer that person to another person or to a website or video to see how he can improve.

coolmodi · February 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

With this sort of thing there is two typically reactions.
1. The people that will take steps to try to force people into being around them.
2. The people that have no desire to be around people that don't want them around.

Lol !!! ;-)
Your "first situation" doesn't exist since the rejected person is thrown out by force. Your "second situation" is not relevant because noone cared about the rejected person's desire.
May I remind you that we are talking about a "Looking For Group Tool" in an MMO ?
People who are not ready to play happily with whoever comes up via the tool should not use the tool, end of story.

You are case 1, I'm perfectly sure, you proved that more than once.

If the other 3 don't want to play with you, they shouldn't have to. If a raid leader doesn't want you, just gtfo. That's how the world works, you have to do your part for the team, if the team doesn't want you you're out.

People have NO right to play how they like and stay bad when playing in a team. You also have no right to be in a workgroup and let the others do all the work. That's just pure egosim, those people are the a problem, not the "elitist" who kick bad people.

Edit: Again, this doesn't mean all bad people need to be kicked, even though you love to make me look like I write that all the time. But just because you use a LFG tool doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and the others HAVE to accept you...
And in other cases this shouldn't be a concern at all.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

After all, if you don't need explanations as to why you're kicked from a group, you don't need to understand either why an add-on needed to go. Get over it.

And this, just... wow. Do you not make sense on purpose?

AddictionX · February 2016

On a side note it would be funny if AoE's damaged all players and could kill your allies. Anyways thats what i got from the title till i read it lol