Do you want group damage to return?

omfgitsbatman

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

hek no!
i dont want people knowing about my personal choices and armor and how much damage i can do!
that is my own personal business!

I agree with you if you play solo. If you join a group and want to do group content, then how much damage you do absolutely affects everyone else in the group. If your group wipes continously because you want to wear 4 light and 3 heavy using bow/sword and shield while saying you're a dps, then your choices directly harm every other person in the group. I believe at this point people should know where the bottleneck in their group is.

If your actions don't affect others, do whatever yout want. If you don't want to play the way that gets group content done, then the group that you're a part of should be able to know that.

omfgitsbatman

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Xjcon wrote: »

What's to inspect? There is very few choices in top tier gear. And the Elite create threads on known sites explaining exactly how to build the best setup.

Another reason for avoiding the "almighty-DPS-race", because it will lead to everyone forced into wearing the same stuff and doing the same rotation. I let the pressure force me to use the same cookie cutter build as everyone else on my magicka sorc because I wanted to run high level content with her, but on my templar alt I'll try to be more creative and try plenty of other stuff and rotations. And if I cannot complete some content with him, so be it. But even the most "special snowflake crazy" build will let you do the 8-12K DPS required by nearly all vet dungeons.

.

Your views about pug groups are skewed at best. For the little time that GroupDamage was active, I encountered at least 25 "DPS" with less than 5k dps, 15 with less than 3k consistently. Saying that any special snowflake can reach 8-12k is an extremely elitist viewpoint.

This hinders a group big time, and if multiple of these players get in the same group, then game over.

I have been the tank in quite a few groups that could not complete vet dungeons because of this problem.

People pug. People play at strange times occasionally when their friends aren't on. People want to meet new people. People are not going to stop pugging. That being said, if someone is going to join a group and not do his job, the rest of the people should know. If a tank doesn't do his job, the boss kills everyone else. If the healer doesn't do his job, people die and it's obvious. In a vet dungeon group if the dps doesn't do their job, the boss doesn't die... so as a tank or healer in a group where the boss doesn't die, which one or both of the dps is not pulling their weight? They both have costumes on. How do you go about finding a solution?
Same situation with a group dps meter: "Hey bud, I noticed that you were only pulling 3k dps on that last fight. Honestly, we're not going to be able to complete this unless we can improve that. If you would like a bit of advice, I can offer my 2 cents."

anitajoneb17_ESO

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Your views about pug groups are skewed at best. For the little time that GroupDamage was active, I encountered at least 25 "DPS" with less than 5k dps, 15 with less than 3k consistently. Saying that any special snowflake can reach 8-12k is an extremely elitist viewpoint.

See, I LFG-PUG the daily gold whenever it's a dungeon "lower than" vCoA. Because as much as I like my guildies, I'm tired of the flawless quick runs in the easy dungeons. For the last six months I've been doing this, and of course without Group Damage, I've NEVER encountered a group where it was impossible to complete the pledge in a reasonable (<1 hour) amount of time.

Since @coolmodi reported the same numbers as you, (many people under 3K DPS, 5-8K tops), I wonder if this addon was reporting correct numbers. Doing less than 3K DPS sounds quite impossible to me.

.

anitajoneb17_ESO

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

People pug. People play at strange times occasionally when their friends aren't on. People want to meet new people. People are not going to stop pugging.

Of course not, that's why the LFG tool was almost entirely deserted for nearly a year ? (/irony).

coolmodi

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Since @coolmodi reported the same numbers as you, (many people under 3K DPS, 5-8K tops), I wonder if this addon was reporting correct numbers. Doing less than 3K DPS sounds quite impossible to me.

No, the addon was correct, it just reported the numbers the game gave it. For yourself those numbers were the same in other addons (except a slight deviation thanks to combat times), the code used to collect data was the same for all combat data. Some people also reported to me that the addon showed what others saw on their end.

Some people are just really bad or lazy, people that do 80% light attacks while at the same time doing less light attacks then others do just won't do much dmg, <3k is just expected when playing like that.

Now without the addon I can just guess how much of the group's damage I do. But with a few more levels, passives etc., I now end up doing 6-7k dps ST, which results in up to 80% of the damage done on single target bosses...
(This is for v16 scaled LFG I queued up on lvl ~30)

Edit: E.g. on that netch boss in Darkshade I did something over 60% while doing around 6kdps, go figure how much the other DD did if you split the other 4k on 3 people. I don't need an addon to see if the others are good or bad, I just don't know WHY, I just don't see any useful data, I still know he did under 3k.

That's why all those arguments against the addon that say it would cause people getting kicked are imho void. I perfectly see even without who is bad and could kick them based on that. Those "evil elitists" don't need a addon to kick you from PUGs, but that seems to be the #1 reason I see against the addon. (+the whole privacy stuff, but that's at best questionable)

anitajoneb17_ESO

coolmodi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Since @coolmodi reported the same numbers as you, (many people under 3K DPS, 5-8K tops), I wonder if this addon was reporting correct numbers. Doing less than 3K DPS sounds quite impossible to me.

No, the addon was correct, it just reported the numbers the game gave it. For yourself those numbers were the same in other addons (except a slight deviation thanks to combat times), the code used to collect data was the same for all combat data. Some people also reported to me that the addon showed what others saw on their end.

Some people are just really bad or lazy, people that do 80% light attacks while at the same time doing less light attacks then others do just won't do much dmg, <3k is just expected when playing like that.

How do you explain THIS then :

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

See, I LFG-PUG the daily gold whenever it's a dungeon "lower than" vCoA. Because as much as I like my guildies, I'm tired of the flawless quick runs in the easy dungeons. For the last six months I've been doing this, and of course without Group Damage, I've NEVER encountered a group where it was impossible to complete the pledge in a reasonable (<1 hour) amount of time.

Adding to this that I rarely had the feeling to be the only one DPSing there, nor that the other DPS was doing really bad.

Have I been constantly, regularly extremely lucky with LFG-PUGs over 6 months, and you've been constantly, regularly extremely unlucky ?

I'm not doubting what you're saying, I'm just wondering what's going on here, because obviously, there's something fishy. Or we're not playing the same game. Or the US server has completely different player profiles ? I don't think so. There MUST be something in those figures that makes them not directly comparable with the ones we're used to from FTC. Probably the time base that is used (entire dungeon vs. single boss fight ?)

.

coolmodi

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

How do you explain THIS then :

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

See, I LFG-PUG the daily gold whenever it's a dungeon "lower than" vCoA. Because as much as I like my guildies, I'm tired of the flawless quick runs in the easy dungeons. For the last six months I've been doing this, and of course without Group Damage, I've NEVER encountered a group where it was impossible to complete the pledge in a reasonable (<1 hour) amount of time.

Adding to this that I rarely had the feeling to be the only one DPSing there, nor that the other DPS was doing really bad.

I don't need to. That I (and also other people) encountered really bad people and know that by looking at actual numbers is something completely different than you just "feeling" like it can't be true. It also doesn't mean there can't be good people. There are also cases where the heal+tank do quite good dmg, at least I saw that a few times. Without the addon you ofc wouldn't know.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Have I been constantly, regularly extremely lucky with LFG-PUGs over 6 months, and you've been constantly, regularly extremely unlucky ?

Probably neither, I just go after factual numbers, you go after feelings. I also haven't done enough dungeons to say it is the norm, it was for me though. The fact that there are many extremely bad/lazy DDs remains true in any case.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

There MUST be something in those figures that makes them not directly comparable with the ones we're used to from FTC. Probably the time base that is used (entire dungeon vs. single boss fight ?)

No, absolute dmg/heal was always the same as long as FTC didn't split the fight (you didn't do dmg for too long), per second values were slightly off because FTC used the first and last time you did dmg to begin and end the fight, GroupDamage used the actual combat state the game provides. In very short fights (seconds) that could make the dps very different, absolute numbers were still the same, so was percentual contribution.

That's also the reason why GroupDamage numbers were superior for a comparison, they showed the actual contribution and not only a dps (FTC sharing) number that has no common basis. GD would also be able (and partly was already) to show much more, e.g. ability breakdowns that showed WHY someone was doing low dmg (or also no heal but oom). Much more was planned. But it's nice that you don't even know what the addon even did, but you're still in the forum 24/7 talking against it.

Edit: Not to mention that I can have huge dps in FTC while actually doing nothing overall.

anitajoneb17_ESO

coolmodi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

How do you explain THIS then :

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

See, I LFG-PUG the daily gold whenever it's a dungeon "lower than" vCoA. Because as much as I like my guildies, I'm tired of the flawless quick runs in the easy dungeons. For the last six months I've been doing this, and of course without Group Damage, I've NEVER encountered a group where it was impossible to complete the pledge in a reasonable (<1 hour) amount of time.

Adding to this that I rarely had the feeling to be the only one DPSing there, nor that the other DPS was doing really bad.

I don't need to. That I (and also other people) encountered really bad people and know that by looking at actual numbers is something completely different than you just "feeling" like it can't be true. It also doesn't mean there can't be good people. There are also cases where the heal+tank do quite good dmg, at least I saw that a few times. Without the addon you ofc wouldn't know.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Have I been constantly, regularly extremely lucky with LFG-PUGs over 6 months, and you've been constantly, regularly extremely unlucky ?

Probably neither, I just go after factual numbers, you go after feelings. I also haven't done enough dungeons to say it is the norm, it was for me though. The fact that there are many extremely bad/lazy DDs remains true in any case.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

There MUST be something in those figures that makes them not directly comparable with the ones we're used to from FTC. Probably the time base that is used (entire dungeon vs. single boss fight ?)

No, absolute dmg/heal was always the same as long as FTC didn't split the fight (you didn't do dmg for too long), per second values were slightly off because FTC used the first and last time you did dmg to begin and end the fight, GroupDamage used the actual combat state the game provides. In very short fights (seconds) that could make the dps very different, absolute numbers were still the same, so was percentual contribution.

That's also the reason why GroupDamage numbers were superior for a comparison, they showed the actual contribution and not only a dps (FTC sharing) number that has no common basis. GD would also be able (and partly was already) to show much more, e.g. ability breakdowns that showed WHY someone was doing low dmg (or also no heal but oom). Much more was planned. But it's nice that you don't even know what the addon even did, but you're still in the forum 24/7 talking against it.

I know that this addon was showing everyone's DPS numbers to everyone without asking anyone, and enabling comparisons and rankings in form of both raw numbers and percentages. True or false ? True. Then that's enough for me to comment about it, thank you.

Dungeon completion is a fact, not a feeling. What does it matter to YOU that someone was "performing" less than you in a dungeon, as long as it is completed ? Yet you insist that less good players need to be filtered out.

If, as you say, your numbers are correct, then it proves again that high DPS is not a requirement for completing (most) dungeons. Your addon gives people the feeling that DPS is required and that people with low DPS should be kicked. That's why it had to go.

.

coolmodi

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

What does it matter to YOU that someone was "performing" less than you in a dungeon, as long as it is completed ?

Because it wasted MY and TWO OTHER peoples time if the other DD does nothing. That should be reason enough why it matters to a whole lot of people. If you think it's ok to waste other peoples time because you don't want to do something or don't want to get better then that is pretty f***** up. If I group with others I have to at least give it my best, but some people don't do that, many probably don't even know that they are bad, thanks to not having a way of knowing...

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Yet you insist that less good players need to be filtered out.

I...didn't. I acutally wrote multiple times over many threads that I DON'T.

But you AGAIN, and not only with what I write, make things up as you please. Can you please stop this extremely childish word twisting already? If that term even does justice to what you constantly do here.

Edit: Edited a bit so it hopefully won't get deleted again.

anitajoneb17_ESO

coolmodi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

What does it matter to YOU that someone was "performing" less than you in a dungeon, as long as it is completed ?

Because it wasted MY and TWO OTHER peoples time if the other DD does nothing. That should be reason enough why it matters to a whole lot of people. If you think it's ok to waste other peoples time because you don't want to do something or don't want to get better then that is pretty f***** up. If I group with others I have to at least give it my best, but some people don't do that, many probably don't even know that they are bad, thanks to not having a way of knowing...

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Yet you insist that less good players need to be filtered out.

I...didn't. I acutally wrote multiple times over many threads that I DON'T.

But you AGAIN, and not only with what I write, make things up as you please. Can you please stop this extremely childish word twisting already?

Edit: Edited a bit so it hopefully won't get deleted...

But you just did. Didn't you just write that you don't want people in your group *wasting your time* due to their DPS being lower than yours ?
If that's not equal to "less good players need to be filtered out in order to save people's time", then please reformulate.

And yes, as long as the group can complete the dungeon, I don't care how people choose to play, it's their freedom, their choice, I am not entitled to judge them nor to force them into a cookie cutter build for the sake of "almighty DPS" that is not even needed.

.

Function

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Your views about pug groups are skewed at best. For the little time that GroupDamage was active, I encountered at least 25 "DPS" with less than 5k dps, 15 with less than 3k consistently. Saying that any special snowflake can reach 8-12k is an extremely elitist viewpoint.

See, I LFG-PUG the daily gold whenever it's a dungeon "lower than" vCoA. Because as much as I like my guildies, I'm tired of the flawless quick runs in the easy dungeons. For the last six months I've been doing this, and of course without Group Damage, I've NEVER encountered a group where it was impossible to complete the pledge in a reasonable (<1 hour) amount of time.

Since @coolmodi reported the same numbers as you, (many people under 3K DPS, 5-8K tops), I wonder if this addon was reporting correct numbers. Doing less than 3K DPS sounds quite impossible to me.

.

This addon was displaying the correct numbers, here is an SO hardmode parse with the total damage circled from both GroupDamage and FTC.. you can see they are the same (the DPS was different because GroupDamage had a longer end of combat stop).

anitajoneb17_ESO

Function wrote: »

This addon was displaying the correct numbers, here is an SO hardmode parse with the total damage circled from both GroupDamage and FTC.. you can see they are the same (the DPS was different because GroupDamage had a longer end of combat stop).

OK thanks for that.
Then we'll have to find another explanation as to why @coolmodi (and he's not the only one) repeatedly says that he cannot do more than 8K DPS at Lvl40-ish scaled to VR16 and that most other DPS average 3K and not more. That's a mystery.

.

Function

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Function wrote: »

This addon was displaying the correct numbers, here is an SO hardmode parse with the total damage circled from both GroupDamage and FTC.. you can see they are the same (the DPS was different because GroupDamage had a longer end of combat stop).

OK thanks for that.
Then we'll have to find another explanation as to why @coolmodi (and he's not the only one) repeatedly says that he cannot do more than 8K DPS at Lvl40 scaled to VR16 and that most other DPS average 3K and not more. That's a mystery.

.

Its not that unbelievable, the other day I helped a buddy of mine complete the vet pledge with two pug DPS which both were doing incredibly low DPS (cant say how much for sure since GroupDamage was disabled at this point). One of them was a sorcerer which spammed mages wrath (the execute ability) when the monster was full health and also using elemental ring (the AoE ability) on single targets. The other (I cannot recall the class) was spamming light attacks on each mob with the occasional cleave ability. It was a fairly rough experience, we managed to kill the engine guardian in a little over nine minutes.. which I believe was mostly only due to my buddy (the tank) switching to DPS for that fight.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Function wrote: »

Its not that unbelievable, the other day I helped a buddy of mine complete the vet pledge with two pug DPS which both were doing incredibly low DPS (cant say how much for sure since GroupDamage was disabled at this point). One of them was a sorcerer which spammed mages wrath (the execute ability) when the monster was full health and also using elemental ring (the AoE ability) on single targets. The other (I cannot recall the class) was spamming light attacks on each mob with the occasional cleave ability. It was a fairly rough experience, we managed to kill the engine guardian in a little over nine minutes.. which I believe was mostly only due to my buddy (the tank) switching to DPS for that fight.

How come then that I hardly ever encounter that kind of situation when I PUG ?
Spamming light attacks only would get you over 3K DPS... so would spamming mage's wrath even if not in execute situation...

.

Function

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Function wrote: »

Its not that unbelievable, the other day I helped a buddy of mine complete the vet pledge with two pug DPS which both were doing incredibly low DPS (cant say how much for sure since GroupDamage was disabled at this point). One of them was a sorcerer which spammed mages wrath (the execute ability) when the monster was full health and also using elemental ring (the AoE ability) on single targets. The other (I cannot recall the class) was spamming light attacks on each mob with the occasional cleave ability. It was a fairly rough experience, we managed to kill the engine guardian in a little over nine minutes.. which I believe was mostly only due to my buddy (the tank) switching to DPS for that fight.

How come then that I hardly ever encounter that kind of situation when I PUG ?
Spamming light attacks only would get you over 3K DPS... so would spamming mage's wrath even if not in execute situation...

.

Because these two individuals were obviously very new. Many people run the vet pledge each day, you never know who you are going to get when you pug.. they could be veteran players or they could be new players.

Like I said, GroupDamage was disabled so I don't know what their exact DPS was, I never said it was 3k.. that number was from a different persons post which was about the DPS of a battle leveled character (and I have no idea what kind of DPS battle leveled characters do).

Bogdan_Kobzar

post removed...

anitajoneb17_ESO

@Bogdan_Kobzar :

Look at the poll... 1st post of this thread... see ? 50/50%... where's your "vocal minority" ?
Furthermore, where's any sort of logical or numerical evidence between people spending money on the game and their opinion towards this addon ?

.

KallistaBlackheart

coolmodi wrote: »

But you AGAIN, and not only with what I write, make things up as you please. Can you please stop this extremely childish word twisting already? If that term even does justice to what you constantly do here.

this. many times this. mostly one individual but others have to some degree done this as well in all the many threads on this topic. i do not mind my position being argued against, but i want my ACTUAL position argued against not a made up straw-man.

omfgitsbatman

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

coolmodi wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Since @coolmodi reported the same numbers as you, (many people under 3K DPS, 5-8K tops), I wonder if this addon was reporting correct numbers. Doing less than 3K DPS sounds quite impossible to me.

No, the addon was correct, it just reported the numbers the game gave it. For yourself those numbers were the same in other addons (except a slight deviation thanks to combat times), the code used to collect data was the same for all combat data. Some people also reported to me that the addon showed what others saw on their end.

Some people are just really bad or lazy, people that do 80% light attacks while at the same time doing less light attacks then others do just won't do much dmg, <3k is just expected when playing like that.

How do you explain THIS then :

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

See, I LFG-PUG the daily gold whenever it's a dungeon "lower than" vCoA. Because as much as I like my guildies, I'm tired of the flawless quick runs in the easy dungeons. For the last six months I've been doing this, and of course without Group Damage, I've NEVER encountered a group where it was impossible to complete the pledge in a reasonable (<1 hour) amount of time.

Adding to this that I rarely had the feeling to be the only one DPSing there, nor that the other DPS was doing really bad.

Have I been constantly, regularly extremely lucky with LFG-PUGs over 6 months, and you've been constantly, regularly extremely unlucky ?

I'm not doubting what you're saying, I'm just wondering what's going on here, because obviously, there's something fishy. Or we're not playing the same game. Or the US server has completely different player profiles ? I don't think so. There MUST be something in those figures that makes them not directly comparable with the ones we're used to from FTC. Probably the time base that is used (entire dungeon vs. single boss fight ?)

.

It is quite possible to carry a group, and I do so frequently on my nb. With one dps that can pull 15-20k dps, it's unlikely that you'll fail any content. If you tank, however, you will certainly find groups that do not have the damage capability to finish dungeons... I have spent 2 hours in Vet Elden Hollow without a complete. 3 hours in VCoA no complete. 2 hours in VFG no complete. 1.5 hours on 2nd boss in VDC. 1.5 Hours on 3rd boss VDC. 2 hours no complete VBC.

If you have never failed a pug, roll a tank and I promise you will.

As far as the damage numbers not adding up, the total damage for group damage has always been the same as FTC total damage for me. When the tank does more total damage than both dps combined, you know you have a problem. This is not uncommon in pugs, I honestly can't understand how you've gotten so lucky.

Reznique

What many individuals did not consider:

1. Without grp DPS addon some dds will still get kicked from pugs without explanation.

2. Those dds may start a new heart-tearing thread about how mean some people in pugs are regarding low DPS.

3. ZOS bans the concept of DPS (and dps measuring addons).

4. Still people get kicked from pugs due to "longer time taken to kill a boss than expected".

5. ZOSe takes dungeons and trials on a maitenance (they are no longer present in the game) until further notice.

6. People go to Cyrodil.

7. People leave Cyrodil (the lag is real boys) and make angry threads about poor quality of open world pvp.

8. People now quest together and compete with each other in such matters as:
-Horse Races
-Marathons
-Swimming competitions
-"Who can collect more mats in 5 minutes?"

9. PROFIT!!1 - ESO target group happy; NO extra money spent on development; Argonian- master race; no more angry angry posts regarding the game but even more fascinating fan-made khajiit drawings on ESO live ( balance & mechanics section also exchanged for fan-fiction lore story telling ^_^)

maxjapank

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

It is quite possible to carry a group, and I do so frequently on my nb. With one dps that can pull 15-20k dps, it's unlikely that you'll fail any content. If you tank, however, you will certainly find groups that do not have the damage capability to finish dungeons... I have spent 2 hours in Vet Elden Hollow without a complete. 3 hours in VCoA no complete. 2 hours in VFG no complete. 1.5 hours on 2nd boss in VDC. 1.5 Hours on 3rd boss VDC. 2 hours no complete VBC.

If you have never failed a pug, roll a tank and I promise you will.

As far as the damage numbers not adding up, the total damage for group damage has always been the same as FTC total damage for me. When the tank does more total damage than both dps combined, you know you have a problem. This is not uncommon in pugs, I honestly can't understand how you've gotten so lucky.

I guess I've been lucky, too. I've pugged many, many times using zone chat or the LFG, and I've only had one run that couldn't be completed. And that failed run was because as much as I explained the mechanics in chat, no one seemed to get it. In fact, no one would say anthing in chat. So I left.

I heal 90% of the dungeons I run. But I also dps. Perhaps my extra dps as a healer helps speed things up. But I've spent anywhere from 5 minutes to 20 minutes on some bosses, depending on the group. In my experience, most wipes are due to misunderstanding mechanics.

KallistaBlackheart

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

If you have never failed a pug, roll a tank and I promise you will.

As far as the damage numbers not adding up, the total damage for group damage has always been the same as FTC total damage for me. When the tank does more total damage than both dps combined, you know you have a problem. This is not uncommon in pugs, I honestly can't understand how you've gotten so lucky.

bold text by me for emphasis. this.
my main is a tank. the amount of times i have done more dps then the dps is annoyingly frequent. until groupdamge i just did not know how much more.....

maxjapank

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

If you have never failed a pug, roll a tank and I promise you will.

As far as the damage numbers not adding up, the total damage for group damage has always been the same as FTC total damage for me. When the tank does more total damage than both dps combined, you know you have a problem. This is not uncommon in pugs, I honestly can't understand how you've gotten so lucky.

bold text by me for emphasis. this.
my main is a tank. the amount of times i have done more dps then the dps is annoyingly frequent. until groupdamge i just did not know how much more.....

Could you complete the dungeon?

KallistaBlackheart

maxjapank wrote: »

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

If you have never failed a pug, roll a tank and I promise you will.

As far as the damage numbers not adding up, the total damage for group damage has always been the same as FTC total damage for me. When the tank does more total damage than both dps combined, you know you have a problem. This is not uncommon in pugs, I honestly can't understand how you've gotten so lucky.

bold text by me for emphasis. this.
my main is a tank. the amount of times i have done more dps then the dps is annoyingly frequent. until groupdamge i just did not know how much more.....

Could you complete the dungeon?

not until one or both dps were replaced. not on any vet i have ever done. sometimes on normal tank and heals can carry sub-par dps. but we are looking at dps doing less then 2.5k here, i as a tank can put out that much in full tank/tank gear if i can afford to waste stam. when the dps are pulling less then that most vet instances are impossible to do. not all, most. and this is not dungeon, this has happened countless times. the times i have finished with dd whose dps that were near or bellow my dps they could dance the dance flawlessly. not many do that, the more time it takes the higher likelihood they are going to screw up and die. over and over and over again.

maxjapank

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

If you have never failed a pug, roll a tank and I promise you will.

As far as the damage numbers not adding up, the total damage for group damage has always been the same as FTC total damage for me. When the tank does more total damage than both dps combined, you know you have a problem. This is not uncommon in pugs, I honestly can't understand how you've gotten so lucky.

bold text by me for emphasis. this.
my main is a tank. the amount of times i have done more dps then the dps is annoyingly frequent. until groupdamge i just did not know how much more.....

Could you complete the dungeon?

not until one or both dps were replaced. not on any vet i have ever done. sometimes on normal tank and heals can carry sub-par dps. but we are looking at dps doing less then 2.5k here, i as a tank can put out that much in full tank/tank gear if i can afford to waste stam. when the dps are pulling less then that most vet instances are impossible to do. not all, most. and this is not dungeon, this has happened countless times. the times i have finished with dd whose dps that were near or bellow my dps they could dance the dance flawlessly. not many do that, the more time it takes the higher likelihood they are going to screw up and die. over and over and over again.

Guess I've been lucky. Funny thing, though. I did have the same guy bail on my pug group twice. He's actually a raid leader in a guild I belong to, but he didn't have the patience to explain mechanics to the other two pugs. He sighted poor dps, and complained in the guild chat about "pugs." I don't think he knew I was in his guild.

Anyways, after he left, we got another dps from the group finder. I explained the mechanics to the two pugs. They learned it in another two tries, and it was smooth sailing. One of the best pug runs I've been with to date. And the best thing was I saw this "raid leader" continue trying to get a group together long after we'd finish it. If only he'd stayed...../face palm.

KallistaBlackheart

maxjapank wrote: »

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

omfgitsbatman wrote: »

If you have never failed a pug, roll a tank and I promise you will.

As far as the damage numbers not adding up, the total damage for group damage has always been the same as FTC total damage for me. When the tank does more total damage than both dps combined, you know you have a problem. This is not uncommon in pugs, I honestly can't understand how you've gotten so lucky.

bold text by me for emphasis. this.
my main is a tank. the amount of times i have done more dps then the dps is annoyingly frequent. until groupdamge i just did not know how much more.....

Could you complete the dungeon?

not until one or both dps were replaced. not on any vet i have ever done. sometimes on normal tank and heals can carry sub-par dps. but we are looking at dps doing less then 2.5k here, i as a tank can put out that much in full tank/tank gear if i can afford to waste stam. when the dps are pulling less then that most vet instances are impossible to do. not all, most. and this is not dungeon, this has happened countless times. the times i have finished with dd whose dps that were near or bellow my dps they could dance the dance flawlessly. not many do that, the more time it takes the higher likelihood they are going to screw up and die. over and over and over again.

Guess I've been lucky. Funny thing, though. I did have the same guy bail on my pug group twice. He's actually a raid leader in a guild I belong to, but he didn't have the patience to explain mechanics to the other two pugs. He sighted poor dps, and complained in the guild chat about "pugs." I don't think he knew I was in his guild.

Anyways, after he left, we got another dps from the group finder. I explained the mechanics to the two pugs. They learned it in another two tries, and it was smooth sailing. One of the best pug runs I've been with to date. And the best thing was I saw this "raid leader" continue trying to get a group together long after we'd finish it. If only he'd stayed...../face palm.

contrary to some of what us "elitist"* have been accused of. i also will try and explain mechanics and starts and work with what is in the group, if it is somewhere near possible. i do not mind dying so others can learn. i do not mind whipping so others can figure out their starts. i do not mind taking some time with people who try even if they fail loads. i have had some encounters where this worked. i do mind wasting my time when there is no communication, misplaced blame on others for their failures and silence, bloody silence when questions are asked of the group as to how to proceed....

it does sound like you have been lucky, may your luck continue. it also sounds like this "raid leader" does not know what leading a raid is all about or for that matter what being a leader is all about. (in another mmo i was a raid leader of a small group that had dibs on one of the first ten to down some of the hardest content. my group was not all elitist.. a few were but most were casuals who just wanted to see the end game. i took them there.)

dps matters, at some point you have to realize it is part of the mechanics. i think it is a mis-characterization to say all of us looking to get back group dps addons are all about the dps only. i think most realize it is just one aspect of any successful group. in some encounters the strat matters and the dps has to be high enough to finish in a certain amount of time as determined by the encounters scenarios. in others, high dps just lets you ignore mechanics or just makes the fight shorter. this is something i like for farm runs but get bored of in many runs. in said fights that do not need high dps i find that those who do not know their own dps or do not know enough about the combat mechanics often are very good at not knowing how to move or follow strats. (this is based on my observation so is only as useful, however i find many agree that they find the same) i do not mind helping somebody, even a random pug, learn the combat mechanics but in a random pickup from zone or the group finder tool is not the time. (exception made if i know most of the others in group and they are ok with the delay, most people i run with are more then glad to help, although when i run with dps i know the pug can usually just be carried anyway.)

maxjapank

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

dps matters, at some point you have to realize it is part of the mechanics. i think it is a mis-characterization to say all of us looking to get back group dps addons are all about the dps only. i think most realize it is just one aspect of any successful group. in some encounters the strat matters and the dps has to be high enough to finish in a certain amount of time as determined by the encounters scenarios.

I agree. Dps does matter. But not as much as mechanics in most ESO dungeons. CoA, WGT, and Prison introduced more of a dps check and so has vMA. But the general player can enjoy most dungeons in the game without worrying about dps so much. As for the later ones, I think most people prefer to run those with friends and guildies anyways.

By the way...I've always been in support of the ability for players to share information. Think those who want to share should be allowed to. Think those who don't want to share shouldn't be forced to.

KallistaBlackheart

maxjapank wrote: »

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

dps matters, at some point you have to realize it is part of the mechanics. i think it is a mis-characterization to say all of us looking to get back group dps addons are all about the dps only. i think most realize it is just one aspect of any successful group. in some encounters the strat matters and the dps has to be high enough to finish in a certain amount of time as determined by the encounters scenarios.

I agree. Dps does matter. But not as much as mechanics in most ESO dungeons. CoA, WGT, and Prison introduced more of a dps check and so has vMA. But the general player can enjoy most dungeons in the game without worrying about dps so much. As for the later ones, I think most people prefer to run those with friends and guildies anyways.

By the way...I've always been in support of the ability for players to share information. Think those who want to share should be allowed to. Think those who don't want to share shouldn't be forced to.

i agree to a point. you roll in to any vet as a dd and pull less then the healer you are less then helpful. but even those doing 4.5k or so can do successful runs up to the dps check bosses. as to "shouldn't be forced to". i do not want the solo player to be forced anything. but once you join a group your dps is information they have a right to. just like the tanks health. btw i think any addon that shares this info should only work in groups and should show more than just dps. hps, block mitigation, damage taken etc.

maxjapank

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

dps matters, at some point you have to realize it is part of the mechanics. i think it is a mis-characterization to say all of us looking to get back group dps addons are all about the dps only. i think most realize it is just one aspect of any successful group. in some encounters the strat matters and the dps has to be high enough to finish in a certain amount of time as determined by the encounters scenarios.

I agree. Dps does matter. But not as much as mechanics in most ESO dungeons. CoA, WGT, and Prison introduced more of a dps check and so has vMA. But the general player can enjoy most dungeons in the game without worrying about dps so much. As for the later ones, I think most people prefer to run those with friends and guildies anyways.

By the way...I've always been in support of the ability for players to share information. Think those who want to share should be allowed to. Think those who don't want to share shouldn't be forced to.

i agree to a point. you roll in to any vet as a dd and pull less then the healer you are less then helpful. but even those doing 4.5k or so can do successful runs up to the dps check bosses. as to "shouldn't be forced to". i do not want the solo player to be forced anything. but once you join a group your dps is information they have a right to. just like the tanks health. btw i think any addon that shares this info should only work in groups and should show more than just dps. hps, block mitigation, damage taken etc.

I know. That's how half of the people feel. But I don't. So we are at the line of agree to disagree. It's a very very close poll, despite the lack of numbers. But I bet if it was an "Option" for the players, you would have more people in agreement. Compromise is a good thing.

KallistaBlackheart

maxjapank wrote: »

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

KallistaBlackheart wrote: »

dps matters, at some point you have to realize it is part of the mechanics. i think it is a mis-characterization to say all of us looking to get back group dps addons are all about the dps only. i think most realize it is just one aspect of any successful group. in some encounters the strat matters and the dps has to be high enough to finish in a certain amount of time as determined by the encounters scenarios.

I agree. Dps does matter. But not as much as mechanics in most ESO dungeons. CoA, WGT, and Prison introduced more of a dps check and so has vMA. But the general player can enjoy most dungeons in the game without worrying about dps so much. As for the later ones, I think most people prefer to run those with friends and guildies anyways.

By the way...I've always been in support of the ability for players to share information. Think those who want to share should be allowed to. Think those who don't want to share shouldn't be forced to.

i agree to a point. you roll in to any vet as a dd and pull less then the healer you are less then helpful. but even those doing 4.5k or so can do successful runs up to the dps check bosses. as to "shouldn't be forced to". i do not want the solo player to be forced anything. but once you join a group your dps is information they have a right to. just like the tanks health. btw i think any addon that shares this info should only work in groups and should show more than just dps. hps, block mitigation, damage taken etc.

I know. That's how half of the people feel. But I don't. So we are at the line of agree to disagree. It's a very very close poll, despite the lack of numbers. But I bet if it was an "Option" for the players, you would have more people in agreement. Compromise is a good thing.

compromise is good in a lot of cases and at this point i would agree to a option box. not because i think it is a good idea, but because i think the information provided by these types of addons is needed. but we all know this leads to "enable or get kicked" scenarios. i would like to note that most on the side of an addon such as this have been calling for said option, but as it stood only ZOS could provide, that even as it was briefly as we were allowed said information no api option was given.

but i wonder, why the desire not to share your performance with a group you have willingly joined, whether in the finder tool or in zone? surly the fear can not truly be about getting kicked for bad performance. i have been kicked for being a dragonknight tank. others i have heard of being kicked for the most ridiculous of reasons. i have kicked people for being exceptionally rude to others in group, although not a bad reason, the one being kicked probably did not appreciate my stance. i do see that some would use this information to taunt others, hence why i think it should be limited to only within a group so passers by could not see your info. but these same said would use anything to taunt you or be an a**. as far as the fears of elitism, i think you will find that type of attitude propagates, regardless of addons, in any game that has a way of recording your successes and how well said successes were achieved.

none of this i mind discussing with you, as to this point you have not misconstrued my words or inserted your own assertions to them unlike others in this disagreement. honest discussion is good. but i do wonder if there is anyway to prove either of our assertions regarding the points we hold? do these addons lead to more elitism, or is it just the nature of competition and rude people being rude? how would one measure or test this? it would be nice if ZOS gave the statistics behind their decision, if such information existed. i have seen papers in academia that talk about in game behavior, but the methods used to arrive at any conclusion are almost all based on brief observation and interview like questionnaires, not exceptionally reliable. as i recall there are such works for both good and bad tendencies being highlighted... i apologies but it has been a while since i have pursued this line of study so do not recall titles or authors off the top of my head.

the questions i advance are questions i would like your insight on. i would also like to thank you for this civil discourse.