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Do you want group damage to return?
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Darlon✭✭✭✭✭Seeing the results of the poll so far it seems it is pretty even. So whatever Zenimax decides in the end, it will *** off half of us...1 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »There was nothing wrong with this addon, it was a help tool nothing more nothing less.
It works the same as master merchant does, in fact master merchant is even more invasive with personal data than group damage was....but you don't see crying about that do you?
The problem comes with the PLAYERS who MISS USE IT for ELITISM.
Do you ban something for everyone because a few silly people who miss use it? No you shouldn't...if you did that all the time no one would get anything at all....you might as well ban everything...
It's a tool to help people, use it or don't, if anything it helps you see who the real *** bags are who miss treat others and who the sensible players are who help others improve their builds without forcing opinions on others...
You can't police who will use it or misuse it. If you guys really want a DPS meter then have people willingly download an addon that does it and then have them post their numbers. It's not like you can't get the information it just means you need consent to get it. That's the way it should be.
@eventide03b14a_ESO
Then ban the spyaddon master merchant too then?
so silly...
Spy addon? How exactly do you make that connection? Master merchant scans your guild store postings and parses the data. That's information available to anyone who checks the guild store. Are you confused about how it works or do you honestly not understand the difference?:trollin:1 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Innocent until proven guilty.
yes, and electrical plugs are harmless until you put your bare fingers into them to make your own opinion about it
I'm not cynical or misanthropist, just realistic ! And yes many people turn really bad when given the opportunity, especially online. [snip]
As for the rest, I always appreciate that your post are well written and respectful, I also understand the potential benefits of such an addon, I've stated that many times over several threads, so I'm not going to repeat, but we'll still have to agree to disagree. The negative outweighs the benefits by far, in my opinion, when it comes to this addon.
.
[Edited for baiting comment]Edited by ZOS_CoriJ on January 29, 2016 3:20PM1 -
Grabmoore✭✭✭✭✭
I (As in, myself) do not want to have a low DPS in my team, as this way he will surely drag the team down.
"Flaming" and "Harrasment" can happen without group DPS addons- let's say YOU do 8k dps on first boss in vWGT (example). That would mean that WE (as in, the rest of the group) would ask you to post your DPS stats (This is because low DPS takes more time for the boss ^_^). And then YOU (as in, you) will be kicked and a viable substitute will be found.
Therefore, such addons just save time and nerves for everone, doubt that you think that without this addon people would begin try and educate low dps players and "carry" them through the dungeon.
I support the reimplementation of this add on, so do you. However I completely disagree with your reasoning.
"Saving time" or "no low DPS in my team" are no valid reasons at all dude. Do you realize that people against this add on often bring up players with your mindset as an argument against it?
An add on like group damage can help to determine my focus as a healer. If I see my group having no self healing -which can also be checked with the add on- I rather refrain from supporting with DPS in some spike damage-heavy pulls. Or I see our encounter DPS is below a certain threshold, which tells me we have to kill the first ghost spawns in vCoH. Usually thats not the case, but since I like to help guildies or PUGs, it happens.
The way you try to argue is just toxic. I thought peole in this game weren't so childish and aim for e-peen-DPS race like in other MMOs. At least this was my impression. Maybe we are more mature on EU PC in the end. I don't know.
OT: I have yet to experience a single person getting kicked from my PUG pledges since.... ever!? I don't even remember of an incident like this happening in TESO. It's the "DPS junkies" that leave groups, people, who are hasty and couldn't believe the Adjucator has adds (read this one time
) or that you have to play the mechainc in vICP, if you're below a certain encDPS...
That's fine for me though. Some people just won't get along.
This add on won't make any difference at all. You won't get kicked from most groups, from what I've witnessed.
Sorry for my english, I hope you got my point.EU - PC - Ebonheart Pact
Iggy Grabmoore - Argonian Magicka Templar | Nyctasha - Redguard Stamina Nightblade
Do-Ra'Zhar - Khajiit Stamina DK | Ashmedi - Dunmer Magicka DK
Vanya Darchow - AD Altmer Magicka Sorc | Malek gro'Kash - Orc Stam Sorc
GM of "Handelshaus von Riften" - Trading & PvX Community1 -
ZOS_AlanGadminThis matter has seen considerable discussion across a number of threads recently, and unfortunately also attracted a lot of problems. As it is a topic people feel passionately about, it's important that it be discussed - but it is also important that the discussion be kept civil and constructive. Insulting, berating, or demeaning those who disagree with you is not acceptable.
Being respectful of others opinions is a general expectation of the forum rules, and it's especially necessary with tense topics like this one. We have removed a number of posts, and their replies, from this thread - and we have had to heavily moderate past threads on this topic.
Please be considerate of the forum rules, and your fellow gamers. You don't need to agree with everyone, just treat them in a civil fashion and ensure and criticism is constructive.Forum Rules | Promoting Constructive Discussion | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Help Site
I’ve moved to a new position and I am no longer active on this forum. For assistance, please check the resources linked above2 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭A vote like that needs a "yes, but only opt-in" and "idc" option too.
A lot of people seem to be against it as it was with GroupDamage (for mostly stupid reasons and unfounded fear, but whatever), so it would be interesting to know how many would object it as opt-in, basically as a SO VERY MUCH better solution to FTC sharing which is just a very dirty makeshift solution that also requires everybody to have the addon for it to work.
I expect that there will still be plenty of people against it, but I think it would satsify some. Some people, for whatever reason, simply object to people having their dps stats due some perveived right to DPS privacy. Those people will be satisfied.
Then you have the Hyper-Emotionally sensative people and the "play how you want" people trying to ninja their way into good groups, while hiding their poor performance. Those people won't be happy either way.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0 -
MissBizz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If it means folks will stop picking on MM because they want Group Damage back. Then yes. I want it back.
If someone is rude to me in ANY way or kicks me from a group due to this add-on (and if I actually know that somehow) I will promptly have some VERY snippy words for them, and set them on ignore.
If someone offers me advice (NOT rudely) I will take it, learn, and be thankful.
[EDIT] I like the idea of having the opt in. If you're wanting to join a top-tier guild/group/whatever and they INSIST you must have it turned on.. it makes sense, they are top tier. If you refuse to turn it on for some reason, go join a guild that doesn't require it (and very well could be just as awesome at the runs)Edited by MissBizz on January 29, 2016 3:32PMLone Wolf HelpFor the solo players who know, sometimes you just need a hand.PC | NA | AD-DC-EP | Discord0 -
Cuyler✭✭✭✭✭
✭
See this is where I have a rift against @ZOS's disagreeing with an evaluation without explanation.If someone [snip] kicks me from a group due to this add-on (and if I actually know that somehow) I will promptly have some VERY snippy words for them, and set them on ignore.
Responding with a confrontation to a kick because of low performance is not the appropriate response. Simply ignore them. If a player wants to kick you, for whatever reason, they have a right to do so. Some reasons may seem more arrogant than others but, ultimately nobody is forced to play with anyone they don't want to here.
This is an important point I'd like to make and why I disagree with ZOS labeling this as "spying" which infers a negative connotation. The fact that this addon allowed for an evaluation of performance without confrontation is it's benefit. THAT was its genius.
It provided an opportunity to not call ppl out, not ask to post dps, a chance to not confront insecure people who are quick to snap back with harassing comments of their own while at the same time refining the network of like-minded players through silent evaluation.Edited by Cuyler on January 29, 2016 5:18PMGuild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
"How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]1 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If a player wants to kick you, for whatever reason, they have a right to do so.../...ultimately nobody is forced to play with anyone here.
THIS is where we disagree completely.
You can choose your guilds, you can choose your friends.
But when you choose to PUG, you basically choose to accept to play WITH ANYONE.
And if you don't like the people that the tool grouped you with for whatever reason, you should still try and finish the run, because that's what you signed up for when using the tool. And if you really don't want to, then your option is to leave, not to kick.
.
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Cuyler✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Don't put words in my mouth Anita. I'm looking at this from a neutral perspective. Don't mix up that which is empathetic and that which is a player's common right.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »If a player wants to kick you, for whatever reason, they have a right to do so.../...ultimately nobody is forced to play with anyone here.
THIS is where we disagree completely.
You can choose your guilds, you can choose your friends.
But when you choose to PUG, you basically choose to accept to play WITH ANYONE.
And if you don't like the people that the tool grouped you with for whatever reason, you should still try and finish the run, because that's what you signed up for when using the tool. And if you really don't want to, then your option is to leave, not to kick.
It's a right to kick a player based on performance. Is it empathetic? No. The point I'm trying to make is don't stoop to that level with harassing return comments, simply ignore. The idea is to get to a point where no confrontation occurs between the person wanting better performance and the person who they believe should improve.
The fact is, a player does not assume responsibility of any players performance when joining a group even if it's a pug. It's simply empathetic to do so. And if it's only one player in the group with low performance, it makes sense to kick that player, rather than leave to find three more.
Edited by Cuyler on January 29, 2016 5:36PMGuild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
"How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]2 -
MissBizz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
See this is where I have a rift against @ZOS's disagreeing with an evaluation without explanation.If someone [snip] kicks me from a group due to this add-on (and if I actually know that somehow) I will promptly have some VERY snippy words for them, and set them on ignore.
Responding with a confrontation to a kick because of low performance is not the appropriate response. Simply ignore them. If a player wants to kick you, for whatever reason, they have a right to do so. Some reasons may seem more arrogant than others but, ultimately nobody is forced to play with anyone they don't want to here.
This is an important point I'd like to make and why I disagree with ZOS labeling this as "spying" which infers a negative connotation. The fact that this addon allowed for an evaluation of performance without confrontation is it's benefit. THAT was its genius.
It provided an opportunity to not call ppl out, not ask to post dps, a chance to not confront insecure people who are quick to snap back with harassing comments of their own while at the same time refining the network of like-minded players through silent evaluation.
See @Cuyler , I also mentioned, I would be very willing to take advice, and would use that advice. Getting half way through a dungeon with someone "spying" on my actions without being willing to help then proceeding to kick me? Yes, I think they deserve those snippy words. Would that be everyone? Absolutely not.
I have used "spying" in quotes as I'm not sure that it is exactly spying. Seeing raw numbers feels a bit like spying, but then again, when you're in a group - you can normally tell you is excelling and who is not. Although, in the same token, you mentioned it allows for a silent evaluation of performance, it is viewing something that is not given to you in the base game (in raw numbers) - therefore I can see how they see it as "private". It's something not normally available, which you do not need to opt-in, as well, people can do it without you ever knowing. I can see why ZOS has considered it "spying", but I can also see why it isn't.
To be honest, I almost never pug with groups, as least not in the way I generally see it. I may run with some friends of one of my friends who I don't know, but generally we are there with the same mindset. Personally I don't care if this add-on exists or not, but I can see the issue with pugs.
Don't want to run with people with "too low" DPS/HPS? Don't PUG, go find like-minded individuals to run with.
Don't want your DPS numbers to be view able by strangers and have the possiblity of getting kicked from groups? Don't PUG, go find like-minded individuals to run with.Lone Wolf HelpFor the solo players who know, sometimes you just need a hand.PC | NA | AD-DC-EP | Discord0 -
MissBizz✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »If a player wants to kick you, for whatever reason, they have a right to do so.../...ultimately nobody is forced to play with anyone here.
THIS is where we disagree completely.
You can choose your guilds, you can choose your friends.
But when you choose to PUG, you basically choose to accept to play WITH ANYONE.
And if you don't like the people that the tool grouped you with for whatever reason, you should still try and finish the run, because that's what you signed up for when using the tool. And if you really don't want to, then your option is to leave, not to kick.
.
I also agree with @anitajoneb17_ESO here. (Just saw this). As I mentioned in my previous post, if you don't want to have the chance of running with "too low" HPS/DPS, go find like-minded individuals, not pugs. When you're using the group finder, you should be open minded to who you play with.
[EDIT] Sorry Cuyler, I realise you see this from a "non-pug" view so it's not exactly what you were saying, although I was referring to pug/group finder group when I mentioned the possibility (of being kicked due to this add-on) - although I didn't explicitly state that. Sorry.
As for the confrontation part of your following post. To be honest, I've never had that confrontation, not even the few times I have used the grouping tool. Maybe that's because I'm a healer so I'm used to taking "advice" (or at least, changing up my bar to better support the current group I'm with). If someone has advice for me I will take it, and that's probably why I don't get into those confrontations. In a case like mine, that add-on could likely cause me to cause confrontation. Realistically, it won't - as I mentioned I rarely group find, and I'm not insecure about my performance. Am I top tier? By absolutely no means, but I can keep you alive. I can see why people don't enjoy this add-on.Edited by MissBizz on January 29, 2016 6:06PMLone Wolf HelpFor the solo players who know, sometimes you just need a hand.PC | NA | AD-DC-EP | Discord0 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Don't put words in my mouth Anita. I'm looking at this from a neutral perspective. Don't mix up that which is empathetic and that which is a player's common right.
It's a right to kick a player based on performance. Is it empathetic? No. The point I'm trying to make is don't stoop to that level with harassing return comments, simply ignore. The idea is to get to a point where no confrontation occurs between the person wanting better performance and the person who they believe should improve.
The fact is, a player does not assume responsibility of any players performance when joining a group even if it's a pug. It's simply empathetic to do so. And if it's only one player in the group with low performance, it makes sense to kick that player, rather than leave to find three more.
I don't put any words in your mouth : you're even repeating the same words.
Your point of view ISN'T neutral, it's yours.
It's NOT a right to kick a player based on anything. It's merely a technical possibility given to the player who has the crown. There is not "right" in ESO since there is no "law".
What remains is something like "ethics" and "common sense".
Kicking is not nice, not empathetic, therefore it should not be done, therefore people with expectations should not PUG, in order to avoid having to kick.
As simple as that.
.
Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on January 29, 2016 6:20PM1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
You are wrong. What the player actually signs up for by using the group finder is being placed in a random group with a random leader that can kick them for any reason. People that don't want to be kicked from groups for any reason should not be using group finder.anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »If a player wants to kick you, for whatever reason, they have a right to do so.../...ultimately nobody is forced to play with anyone here.
THIS is where we disagree completely.
You can choose your guilds, you can choose your friends.
But when you choose to PUG, you basically choose to accept to play WITH ANYONE.
And if you don't like the people that the tool grouped you with for whatever reason, you should still try and finish the run, because that's what you signed up for when using the tool. And if you really don't want to, then your option is to leave, not to kick.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)3 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »You are wrong. What the player actually signs up for by using the group finder is being placed in a random group with a random leader that can kick them for any reason. People that don't want to be kicked from groups for any reason should not be using group finder.
Luckily, ZOS agrees with me, and that's why GroupDamage is gone.
.
2 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »If a player wants to kick you, for whatever reason, they have a right to do so.../...ultimately nobody is forced to play with anyone here.
THIS is where we disagree completely.
You can choose your guilds, you can choose your friends.
But when you choose to PUG, you basically choose to accept to play WITH ANYONE.
And if you don't like the people that the tool grouped you with for whatever reason, you should still try and finish the run, because that's what you signed up for when using the tool. And if you really don't want to, then your option is to leave, not to kick.
.
QFT.
I am seriously considering requesting that the kick button is removed at this point.
Its supposed to be there for obnoxious behaviour.....not a performance filter.
Don't like the (non hardcore..or non casual for that matter) group you are with.....leave the group.
Alas, that would just mean the bullies will intimidate and hassle players until they force them to leave and make the game hell.
Much like they bully and intimidate the posters in this thread.
And I guarantee it wont be the casual players making the game hell for anyone with bullying and intimidation tactics.
And before anyone starts with the hypothetical I have been on the receiving end before.
So anyone who says it doesnt happen is full of crap.Edited by Rune_Relic on January 29, 2016 7:01PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »You are wrong. What the player actually signs up for by using the group finder is being placed in a random group with a random leader that can kick them for any reason. People that don't want to be kicked from groups for any reason should not be using group finder.
Luckily, ZOS agrees with me, and that's why GroupDamage is gone.
Your version of what people are signing up for is still incorrect with or without group damage. It is a random group with a random leader that can kick people because he doesn't like their hair color.
V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)3 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »Your version of what people are signing up for is still incorrect with or without group damage. It is a random group with a random leader that can kick people because he doesn't like their hair color.
The fact that you can kill someone with a car every minute does not mean that a car is meant for killing people, let alone that people who don't want to be killed should not walk in the streets.
.1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »Your version of what people are signing up for is still incorrect with or without group damage. It is a random group with a random leader that can kick people because he doesn't like their hair color.
The fact that you can kill someone with a car every minute does not mean that a car is meant for killing people, let alone that people who don't want to be killed should not walk in the streets.
.
Doing this with a car it against a variety laws. Group kicking someone because their name has an "A" in it and you hate the letter "A" is not against any rule.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)2 -
Cuyler✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Let me explain:anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »Don't put words in my mouth Anita. I'm looking at this from a neutral perspective. Don't mix up that which is empathetic and that which is a player's common right.
It's a right to kick a player based on performance. Is it empathetic? No. The point I'm trying to make is don't stoop to that level with harassing return comments, simply ignore. The idea is to get to a point where no confrontation occurs between the person wanting better performance and the person who they believe should improve.
The fact is, a player does not assume responsibility of any players performance when joining a group even if it's a pug. It's simply empathetic to do so. And if it's only one player in the group with low performance, it makes sense to kick that player, rather than leave to find three more.
I don't put any words in your mouth : you're even repeating the same words.
Your point of view ISN'T neutral, it's yours.
It's NOT a right to kick a player based on anything. It's merely a technical possibility given to the player who has the crown. There is not "right" in ESO since there is no "law".
What remains is something like "ethics" and "common sense".
Kicking is not nice, not empathetic, therefore it should not be done, therefore people with expectations should not PUG, in order to avoid having to kick.
As simple as that.
We actually agree on ^this. Personally I feel the same. When pugging, I accept anyone I am grouped with. I stick around, finish the run or leave when it's absolutely clear that we can't finish. Saying we disagree on this point you've assumed my judgment and "put words in my mouth".anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
THIS is where we disagree completely.If a player wants to kick you, for whatever reason, they have a right to do so.../...ultimately nobody is forced to play with anyone here.
You can choose your guilds, you can choose your friends.
But when you choose to PUG, you basically choose to accept to play WITH ANYONE.
And if you don't like the people that the tool grouped you with for whatever reason, you should still try and finish the run, because that's what you signed up for when using the tool. And if you really don't want to, then your option is to leave, not to kick.
What we don't agree on is that besides our personal opinions on what is the ethical thing to do, that a player still has a common right to kick another player. And although I feel it doesn't require explanation, this is why I believe my opinion is neutral.
Edited by Cuyler on January 29, 2016 7:15PMGuild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
"How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]2 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »Your version of what people are signing up for is still incorrect with or without group damage. It is a random group with a random leader that can kick people because he doesn't like their hair color.
The fact that you can kill someone with a car every minute does not mean that a car is meant for killing people, let alone that people who don't want to be killed should not walk in the streets.
.
Doing this with a car it against a variety laws. Group kicking someone because their name has an "A" in it and you hate the letter "A" is not against any rule.
But it's still bad.
If you think that everything that is not expressedly forbidden by law is okay and acceptable, and belongs to "individual freedom"...
then... we could have a very long discussion, but here's not the place.
But your point of view confirms that GroupDamage had to go.
.
Edited by anitajoneb17_ESO on January 29, 2016 7:14PM0 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭timidobserver wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »Your version of what people are signing up for is still incorrect with or without group damage. It is a random group with a random leader that can kick people because he doesn't like their hair color.
The fact that you can kill someone with a car every minute does not mean that a car is meant for killing people, let alone that people who don't want to be killed should not walk in the streets.
.
Doing this with a car it against a variety laws. Group kicking someone because their name has an "A" in it and you hate the letter "A" is not against any rule.
And the Code of conduct ?
To report a player for abuse, exploitation, harassment, or other inappropriate behavior, right-click their name in the Chat Box and select the Report Player option.Anything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »Your version of what people are signing up for is still incorrect with or without group damage. It is a random group with a random leader that can kick people because he doesn't like their hair color.
The fact that you can kill someone with a car every minute does not mean that a car is meant for killing people, let alone that people who don't want to be killed should not walk in the streets.
.
Doing this with a car it against a variety laws. Group kicking someone because their name has an "A" in it and you hate the letter "A" is not against any rule.
But it's still bad.
If you think that everything that is not expressedly forbidden by law is okay and acceptable, and belongs to "individual freedom"...
then... we could have a very long discussion, but here's not the place.
But your point of view confirms that GroupDamage had to go.
.
It's bad for sure, but it is still important to accurately understand what one is signing up. The only thing banning group damage did was substract one reason from an infinite number of reasons that players can get kicked from groups or kept in groups.
Actually addressing irrational group kicking could be done with group kick voting.Edited by timidobserver on January 29, 2016 7:35PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)3 -
anitajoneb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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OK got your point - and sorry.Let me explain:
We actually agree on ^this. Personally I feel the same. When pugging, I accept anyone I am grouped with. I stick around, finish the run or leave when it's absolutely clear that we can't finish. Saying we disagree on this point you've assumed my judgment and "put words in my mouth".anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
THIS is where we disagree completely.If a player wants to kick you, for whatever reason, they have a right to do so.../...ultimately nobody is forced to play with anyone here.
You can choose your guilds, you can choose your friends.
But when you choose to PUG, you basically choose to accept to play WITH ANYONE.
And if you don't like the people that the tool grouped you with for whatever reason, you should still try and finish the run, because that's what you signed up for when using the tool. And if you really don't want to, then your option is to leave, not to kick.
What we don't agree on is that besides our personal opinions on what is the ethical thing to do, that a player still has a common right to kick another player. And although I feel it doesn't require explanation, this is why I believe my opinion is neutral.
On the point where we "disagree" : having the crown gives a player the technical possibility to kick others. Technical possibility doesn't equal a "right", either in the legal nor in the moral sense of the term. It's a possibility that can be used or abused. What makes the difference between the two is ethics and common sense.
IMHO people kicking the 4th player in a LFG-PUG over and over until they're finally grouped with their friend from another faction is abuse. Kicking an apparently weaker player while the dungeon is doable with him is abuse. Kicking someone because of his hair color, or because it's a non-templar healer, is abuse.
ZOS cannot list everything, forbid everything, make a code of conduct about everything, and cannot control everything. We players must act responsibly if we want a welcoming, nice game with many players. Therefore IMHO we cannot say "it is the group's leader right to kick for any reason". It's not.
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Shunravi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
OK got your point - and sorry.Let me explain:
We actually agree on ^this. Personally I feel the same. When pugging, I accept anyone I am grouped with. I stick around, finish the run or leave when it's absolutely clear that we can't finish. Saying we disagree on this point you've assumed my judgment and "put words in my mouth".anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
THIS is where we disagree completely.If a player wants to kick you, for whatever reason, they have a right to do so.../...ultimately nobody is forced to play with anyone here.
You can choose your guilds, you can choose your friends.
But when you choose to PUG, you basically choose to accept to play WITH ANYONE.
And if you don't like the people that the tool grouped you with for whatever reason, you should still try and finish the run, because that's what you signed up for when using the tool. And if you really don't want to, then your option is to leave, not to kick.
What we don't agree on is that besides our personal opinions on what is the ethical thing to do, that a player still has a common right to kick another player. And although I feel it doesn't require explanation, this is why I believe my opinion is neutral.
On the point where we "disagree" : having the crown gives a player the technical possibility to kick others. Technical possibility doesn't equal a "right", either in the legal nor in the moral sense of the term. It's a possibility that can be used or abused. What makes the difference between the two is ethics and common sense.
IMHO people kicking the 4th player in a LFG-PUG over and over until they're finally grouped with their friend from another faction is abuse. Kicking an apparently weaker player while the dungeon is doable with him is abuse. Kicking someone because of his hair color, or because it's a non-templar healer, is abuse.
ZOS cannot list everything, forbid everything, make a code of conduct about everything, and cannot control everything. We players must act responsibly if we want a welcoming, nice game with many players. Therefore IMHO we cannot say "it is the group's leader right to kick for any reason". It's not.
.
Forcing three other people to carry someone through an instance is also abuse. Forcing people to run with someone they dont want to is also abuse. Its harsh, but reality unfortunately.
And the cross faction thing is a failure on ZoS part and they should hurry up on a non groupfinder based system like they said they would. Unfortunately it is the only option untill they fix it.This one has an eloquent and well thought out response to tha... Ooh sweetroll!1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭timidobserver wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »Your version of what people are signing up for is still incorrect with or without group damage. It is a random group with a random leader that can kick people because he doesn't like their hair color.
The fact that you can kill someone with a car every minute does not mean that a car is meant for killing people, let alone that people who don't want to be killed should not walk in the streets.
.
Doing this with a car it against a variety laws. Group kicking someone because their name has an "A" in it and you hate the letter "A" is not against any rule.
But it's still bad.
If you think that everything that is not expressedly forbidden by law is okay and acceptable, and belongs to "individual freedom"...
then... we could have a very long discussion, but here's not the place.
But your point of view confirms that GroupDamage had to go.
.
It's bad for sure, but it is still important to accurately understand what one is signing up. The only thing banning group damage did was substract one reason from an infinite number of reasons that players can get kicked from groups or kept in groups.
Actually addressing irrational group kicking could be done with group kick voting.
Fair point and suggestion.
The likelihood of being stuck with 3 arse hats should be pretty low.
But stil open to abuse.
How about simply a hardcore and casual button on the LFG tool.
Those who choose hardcore will be grouped with people expected to be hardcore players and pretty competent.
Those who choose casual will be players learning the ropes, or simply struggling with content for some reason or people that don't believe they need 30,000 dps to complete a dungeon.
This lets people new to veteran content actualy experience the content and practice without getting kicked.
Not that I condone kicking for performance acceptable conduct.Edited by Rune_Relic on January 29, 2016 8:07PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
Cuyler✭✭✭✭✭
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"Observing" is another word for it that doesn't invoke negative connotation. "private" is an opinion by ZOS to make it so, data is not inherently private. There are others game in which this data is not private. Anyways...
See this is where I have a rift against @ZOS's disagreeing with an evaluation without explanation.If someone [snip] kicks me from a group due to this add-on (and if I actually know that somehow) I will promptly have some VERY snippy words for them, and set them on ignore.
Responding with a confrontation to a kick because of low performance is not the appropriate response. Simply ignore them. If a player wants to kick you, for whatever reason, they have a right to do so. Some reasons may seem more arrogant than others but, ultimately nobody is forced to play with anyone they don't want to here.
This is an important point I'd like to make and why I disagree with ZOS labeling this as "spying" which infers a negative connotation. The fact that this addon allowed for an evaluation of performance without confrontation is it's benefit. THAT was its genius.
It provided an opportunity to not call ppl out, not ask to post dps, a chance to not confront insecure people who are quick to snap back with harassing comments of their own while at the same time refining the network of like-minded players through silent evaluation.
See @Cuyler , I also mentioned, I would be very willing to take advice, and would use that advice. Getting half way through a dungeon with someone "spying" on my actions without being willing to help then proceeding to kick me? Yes, I think they deserve those snippy words. Would that be everyone? Absolutely not.
I have used "spying" in quotes as I'm not sure that it is exactly spying. Seeing raw numbers feels a bit like spying, but then again, when you're in a group - you can normally tell you is excelling and who is not. Although, in the same token, you mentioned it allows for a silent evaluation of performance, it is viewing something that is not given to you in the base game (in raw numbers) - therefore I can see how they see it as "private". It's something not normally available, which you do not need to opt-in, as well, people can do it without you ever knowing. I can see why ZOS has considered it "spying", but I can also see why it isn't.
To be honest, I almost never pug with groups, as least not in the way I generally see it. I may run with some friends of one of my friends who I don't know, but generally we are there with the same mindset. Personally I don't care if this add-on exists or not, but I can see the issue with pugs.
Don't want to run with people with "too low" DPS/HPS? Don't PUG, go find like-minded individuals to run with.
Don't want your DPS numbers to be view able by strangers and have the possiblity of getting kicked from groups? Don't PUG, go find like-minded individuals to run with.
I'm not referring to you specifically @MissBizz, you simply brought up a key point that can provide insight into an argument for this addon. Harassment from both the accuser and the accused is one in the same, still harassment. Yet, only one side seems to demonized. Doesn't seem fair to me. Being able to avoid this confrontation altogether and silently observe the data I feel to be an advantage to the community. I'm not saying it should result in kicking a player mid dungeon, so don't take that the wrong way.
I wouldn't tell anyone not to use the LFG tool. One of it's main functions is to find like minded people that you can meet, friend and continue to play ESO with.
I pug too, whether it's the LFG tool for pledges or spamming zone for trials. It's not above me. I just happen to be in some hardcore guilds too. I base my opinions around each of these scenarios[EDIT] Sorry Cuyler, I realise you see this from a "non-pug" view so it's not exactly what you were saying, although I was referring to pug/group finder group when I mentioned the possibility (of being kicked due to this add-on) - although I didn't explicitly state that. Sorry.Edited by Cuyler on January 29, 2016 8:05PMGuild: STACK n BURN (gm) PC - NA
CP 810 18 Maxed Characters:
"How hard can u guar?" - Rafishul[/spoiler]0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »Your version of what people are signing up for is still incorrect with or without group damage. It is a random group with a random leader that can kick people because he doesn't like their hair color.
The fact that you can kill someone with a car every minute does not mean that a car is meant for killing people, let alone that people who don't want to be killed should not walk in the streets.
.
Doing this with a car it against a variety laws. Group kicking someone because their name has an "A" in it and you hate the letter "A" is not against any rule.
But it's still bad.
If you think that everything that is not expressedly forbidden by law is okay and acceptable, and belongs to "individual freedom"...
then... we could have a very long discussion, but here's not the place.
But your point of view confirms that GroupDamage had to go.
.
It's bad for sure, but it is still important to accurately understand what one is signing up. The only thing banning group damage did was substract one reason from an infinite number of reasons that players can get kicked from groups or kept in groups.
Actually addressing irrational group kicking could be done with group kick voting.
Fair point and suggestion.
The likelihood of being stuck with 3 arse hats should be pretty low.
But stil open to abuse.
How about simply a hardcore and casual button on the LFG tool.
Those who choose hardcore will be grouped with people expected to be hardcore players and pretty competent.
Those who choose casual will be players learning the ropes, or simply struggling with content for some reason.
I would be okay with this, but ZOS does not want to split the group finder pool. They are struggling enough with increasing it.
My solution that actually helps with all valid issues related to group damage and doesn't half the group finder pool.
1.Turn group damage back on.
2.Just remove the group leader from group finder groups entirely. In a 4 man group, 3 kick votes are required to kick someone.
3. Bonus xp, gold, gear, undaunted helm drop rate for finishing dungeon with original group finder group minus afk drops and dcs.
4. Prefer not given steps 2-3, but I would live with also disabling group damage in all group finder groups.
Edited by timidobserver on January 29, 2016 8:16PMV16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)3 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭timidobserver wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »Your version of what people are signing up for is still incorrect with or without group damage. It is a random group with a random leader that can kick people because he doesn't like their hair color.
The fact that you can kill someone with a car every minute does not mean that a car is meant for killing people, let alone that people who don't want to be killed should not walk in the streets.
.
Doing this with a car it against a variety laws. Group kicking someone because their name has an "A" in it and you hate the letter "A" is not against any rule.
But it's still bad.
If you think that everything that is not expressedly forbidden by law is okay and acceptable, and belongs to "individual freedom"...
then... we could have a very long discussion, but here's not the place.
But your point of view confirms that GroupDamage had to go.
.
It's bad for sure, but it is still important to accurately understand what one is signing up. The only thing banning group damage did was substract one reason from an infinite number of reasons that players can get kicked from groups or kept in groups.
Actually addressing irrational group kicking could be done with group kick voting.
Fair point and suggestion.
The likelihood of being stuck with 3 arse hats should be pretty low.
But stil open to abuse.
How about simply a hardcore and casual button on the LFG tool.
Those who choose hardcore will be grouped with people expected to be hardcore players and pretty competent.
Those who choose casual will be players learning the ropes, or simply struggling with content for some reason.
I would be okay with this, but ZOS does not want to split the group finder pool. They are struggling enough with increasing it.
My solution that actually helps with all valid issues related to group damage and doesn't half the group finder pool.
1.Turn group damage back on.
2.Just remove the group leader from group finder groups entirely. In a 4 man group, 3 kick votes are required to kick someone.
3. Bonus xp, gold, gear, undaunted helm drop rate for finishing dungeon with original group finder group minus afk drops and dcs.
4. Prefer not given steps 2-3, but I would live with also disabling group damage in all group finder groups.
So rewarding the group sticking together as a positive influence and reduce the likelihood of performance kicking.
Fair.
But it still doesn't stop 3 people on a speedrun looking for a 4th using lfg and kick, kick, kick, kick...
The best meeting ground there from my point of view would be....
group damage is optional using "invite to group" (this lets guildmates and consenting invited players use the tool, who should be upto performance requirements).
group damage is disabled using "LFG" (this means no one can use it as a performance kicking tool).
Conditional Programming that is another kettle of fish.
Group damage still has to be optional to allow casual players to "invite to group" casual players who wont want their privacy invaded.
EDIT: and besides if players aare going to be kicked for performance reasons anyway whats the point of having them part of the hardcore players group pool ?
Simply don't mix the two playstyles and there is no issue.
Group damage could also then be enabled or disabled with the hardcore LFG option.Edited by Rune_Relic on January 29, 2016 8:39PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »timidobserver wrote: »Your version of what people are signing up for is still incorrect with or without group damage. It is a random group with a random leader that can kick people because he doesn't like their hair color.
The fact that you can kill someone with a car every minute does not mean that a car is meant for killing people, let alone that people who don't want to be killed should not walk in the streets.
.
Doing this with a car it against a variety laws. Group kicking someone because their name has an "A" in it and you hate the letter "A" is not against any rule.
But it's still bad.
If you think that everything that is not expressedly forbidden by law is okay and acceptable, and belongs to "individual freedom"...
then... we could have a very long discussion, but here's not the place.
But your point of view confirms that GroupDamage had to go.
.
It's bad for sure, but it is still important to accurately understand what one is signing up. The only thing banning group damage did was substract one reason from an infinite number of reasons that players can get kicked from groups or kept in groups.
Actually addressing irrational group kicking could be done with group kick voting.
Fair point and suggestion.
The likelihood of being stuck with 3 arse hats should be pretty low.
But stil open to abuse.
How about simply a hardcore and casual button on the LFG tool.
Those who choose hardcore will be grouped with people expected to be hardcore players and pretty competent.
Those who choose casual will be players learning the ropes, or simply struggling with content for some reason.
I would be okay with this, but ZOS does not want to split the group finder pool. They are struggling enough with increasing it.
My solution that actually helps with all valid issues related to group damage and doesn't half the group finder pool.
1.Turn group damage back on.
2.Just remove the group leader from group finder groups entirely. In a 4 man group, 3 kick votes are required to kick someone.
3. Bonus xp, gold, gear, undaunted helm drop rate for finishing dungeon with original group finder group minus afk drops and dcs.
4. Prefer not given steps 2-3, but I would live with also disabling group damage in all group finder groups.
So rewarding the group sticking together as a positive influence and reduce the likelihood of performance kicking.
Fair.
But it still doesn't stop 3 people on a speedrun looking for a 4th using lfg and kick, kick, kick, kick...
The best meeting ground there from my point of view would be....
group damage is optional using "invite to group" (this lets guildmates and consenting invited players use the tool, who should be upto performance requirements).
group damage is disabled using "LFG" (this means no one can use it as a performance kicking tool).
Conditional Programming that is another kettle of fish.
There are no certainties with any solution. They would have to remove group kicking from the game entirely to prevent it from ever being misused. The steps I gave would significantly improve the game for both sides of this debate. I would be okay with your additions. The point is not the specifics but that banning group damage doesn't address any root issue.
I cannot speak to the programming difficultly, but 3% of the money made from the Nord Hero should give them more than enough to hire a guy to do it.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)0