lol

Manoekin

frozywozy wrote: »

krim wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I would not talk too much if I was you. Not that I agree with Meth's opinion but if I remember correctly, this is exactly the kind of argument Alacrity gave when we accused them of exploiting scrolls.

Not even close to the same thing but ok. You should have went with the orbs bug in the undaunted tree. Why are you so bent over about the scroll lol. We used scrolls as a tool to make everyone come to us.

Because back there, Alacrity claimed that they were doing it to convince Zenimax to fix it.

Which was total crap and we all know it by now.

We wanted it fixed, but I wouldn't say we did that just to get it fixed. Also, even if we did, it worked

We were told people were not going to be banned for doing it, and that hel'ra leader boards were not going to be reset because of it. As far as I'm concerned, that was an endorsement from ZOS.

It's really not the same.

Teargrants

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Not one point has been made in 7 pages of comments that is worthy of an actual discussion.

What is the point of this thread? And what is so 'Lol' about that video?

Actually there's been quite a few posts worthy of 'actual discussion'. The nature of broken game mechanics, a la the root + silence inherent in all gap closers and whether or not it was a good idea for Eric to add that to the combat system. As well as the discussion of the nature of various bugs, their exploitability and whether or not it can ever be considered 'legitimate use'.

All those ideas are pretty damn worthy of intelligent discussion, your post on the other hand.....I can't really say.

Valen_Byte

Teargrants wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Not one point has been made in 7 pages of comments that is worthy of an actual discussion.

What is the point of this thread? And what is so 'Lol' about that video?

Actually there's been quite a few posts worthy of 'actual discussion'. The nature of broken game mechanics, a la the root + silence inherent in all gap closers and whether or not it was a good idea for Eric to add that to the combat system. As well as the discussion of the nature of various bugs, their exploitability and whether or not it can ever be considered 'legitimate use'.

All those ideas are pretty damn worthy of intelligent discussion, your post on the other hand.....I can't really say.

Well, most of what I read was nothing more than someone trying to convince everyone that there opinion is the right one. Not much intelligent discussion going on. People are just trying to yell over one another.

I still dont understand what is so funny about the video.

Runkorko

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/red-spam-button-white-keyboard-39281122.jpg

Starshadw

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Your char gets locked up, frozen, unable to use skills when hit with gap closers. Multiple ones will compound the issue to the point you are essentially stunned and taking damage while unable to block or roll. Thats really the issue - you lose control and experience 'being disabled' despite having CC immunity.

Gap closers need to be fixed. Wrobel already acknowledged the issue in.. ironically - the AOE caps thread.

So its not really a discussion on whether or not gap closer spam is causing an issue - people are abusing the hell out of it now as well. It should be prioritized to be fixed sooner than later.

Skills like Concealed Weapon will do exactly the same thing - you end up perma-stunned and unable to do anything. THAT is why certain people spam that particular skill.

The real issue isn't any of these skills per se.

As has been stated time and again - cc immunity is broken and not functioning properly. This is compounded by the fact that break-free is also broken and not functioning properly.

Jules

BigTone wrote: »

JaJaLuka wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

I'd like to point out that a Lotus Fan or Ambush is one of the very very few ways to ensure that a NB spamming cloak, a stam build roll dodging continuously, or a Sorc who can streak 5 times in a row won't get away. It's usually not worth a group's time to chase after a single player, though when said player becomes particularly irritating and insists on coming back to hit our group, we will have one of our NBs spam it on him to keep him visible for the kill. Note that only ONE of us will do so most of the time.

I myself have done it to @Sypher and while it did feel kinda dirty, there's no way that I want to deal with resurrecting the 2-3 people on the outside of my siege line that he'll kill before we have a wall down. We have an unspoken understanding with some of the gankers now - leave my group alone, and we won't chase you down across half the map. Incidentally, when we do chase someone down like that there are points awarded to the person who gets the killing blow. Next week's award for the most points is a stack of tri-pots.

I've been playing mostly solo (magicka NB) the past two weeks, and there are very few situations that I can't escape from unless someone spams a gap closer on me - or I'm cc'ed at the wrong time. I've had the Ambush/Lotus spam done to me a few times, and there are ways out of it if you can get the second line of sight check to fail (a well timed roll into a cloak is the simple way).

The problem people are associating with the ambush spam from this video is unfortunately not the right one. I'd like to see both ambush spamming and shield stacking (shields replacing one another instead) resolved. That people are abusing both and calling it justified is ridiculous. With that in place, you'd be able to kill someone like Sypher without having to rely on a glitch in the game.

Shield stacking is intended and therefore not an exploit, ambush spam locks the player in place and renders them defenseless, which is a bug. People then exploit the bug.

-Says the person who just rerolled a NB and does this all the time lol

Teargrants

Starshadw wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Your char gets locked up, frozen, unable to use skills when hit with gap closers. Multiple ones will compound the issue to the point you are essentially stunned and taking damage while unable to block or roll. Thats really the issue - you lose control and experience 'being disabled' despite having CC immunity.

Gap closers need to be fixed. Wrobel already acknowledged the issue in.. ironically - the AOE caps thread.

So its not really a discussion on whether or not gap closer spam is causing an issue - people are abusing the hell out of it now as well. It should be prioritized to be fixed sooner than later.

Skills like Concealed Weapon will do exactly the same thing - you end up perma-stunned and unable to do anything. THAT is why certain people spam that particular skill.

The real issue isn't any of these skills per se.

As has been stated time and again - cc immunity is broken and not functioning properly. This is compounded by the fact that break-free is also broken and not functioning properly.

It's not 'exactly' the same. Gap closers have an inherent root + all skills silence that applies for a split second when the gap closer is casted. That this exists is not up for debate, Eric Wrobel has confirmed it himself, stating it was added to prevent people from moving out of gap closer range and causing the gap closer to fail after cast. It's a very poor solution to that problem and causes a whole host of other issues being as this effect does not obey the normal CC system at all.

As far as things like Concealed Weapon bugging out and causing unbreakable CC or taking too long to CC break, that's a separate problem w/ the general CC system that also needs to be addressed. It's also particularly noticeable w/ Fossilize + Wrecking Blow combo, often Wrecking Blow will CC you while inside the hard CC of Fossilize.

pronkg

zyk wrote: »

pronkg wrote: »

@zyk this

If you don't want to address my points directly, fine. I'm happy to agree to disagree. But don't call me out about them if you can't be bothered to use the video to specifically demonstrate your point.

Gap closers function in an awkward way. They are designed that way. Specifically, they can immobilize a target while the animation completes and can also induce a brief 'silence', impacting the ability of the target to react. No one is disputing this.

This issue is most noticeable at range, as the animation takes longer to complete' and for 'ground based' gap closers that must negotiate a path to the target. In my experience, it is only significantly impairing when cast by multiple players asynchronously on the same target.

The vast majority of time when a gap closer is cast on me, there is no practical issue.

It may be a bad design, but it is intended and therefore not an exploit in any way. I find irony in the fact one of people most outraged about this has been shown to exploit unintended mechanics and bugs in the past.

If you are dying every time a single player spams a gap closer on you, there is something else wrong. Especially if it is ambush because its animation completes quickly with fewer pathing constraints.

Again, in the video, we can see very clearly that Sypher is able to streak, cast damage shields and roll dodge without apparent issue while multiple players spam ambush on him. If you see otherwise, tell me where. He is immobilized because he's supposed to be: http://www.esohead.com/skills/25484-ambush

I don't like the design of gap closers. I don't think anyone does. I hope it is changed. However, the issue isn't nearly as bad as described by some in this thread. Spamming ambush is certainly not a clear path to success.

I don't need the video. I've been in this situation countless times and as stated before, I've been avoiding pvp cause of this. Not cause of gap closers, but cause of multi ambush. Yes I can handle a single spammer. I've had many fights with groups of v1 - v6 whatever, I can beat 6 of them on my own, but When I see 2 NB I just leave no matter what level they are. 2 or more NB spamming ambush is just death, no other class has a skill like that which ignores all CC immunity that you can spam at close range. Ofcourse he can streak away in between these 0.5 secs or whatever. But he can not react, reposition, try and fight back, you cannot use your character as you are supposed to. You can't do this with critical rush or whatever.

It's annoying enough for me to stop pvping. I'm not saying it's an exploit, its working as intended I know everyone knows that it's working as intended. It's just a stupid gamebreaking skill that needs and will be adjusted, rather sooner than later cause people are stopping pvp cause of this.

BigTone

Jules wrote: »

BigTone wrote: »

JaJaLuka wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

I'd like to point out that a Lotus Fan or Ambush is one of the very very few ways to ensure that a NB spamming cloak, a stam build roll dodging continuously, or a Sorc who can streak 5 times in a row won't get away. It's usually not worth a group's time to chase after a single player, though when said player becomes particularly irritating and insists on coming back to hit our group, we will have one of our NBs spam it on him to keep him visible for the kill. Note that only ONE of us will do so most of the time.

I myself have done it to @Sypher and while it did feel kinda dirty, there's no way that I want to deal with resurrecting the 2-3 people on the outside of my siege line that he'll kill before we have a wall down. We have an unspoken understanding with some of the gankers now - leave my group alone, and we won't chase you down across half the map. Incidentally, when we do chase someone down like that there are points awarded to the person who gets the killing blow. Next week's award for the most points is a stack of tri-pots.

I've been playing mostly solo (magicka NB) the past two weeks, and there are very few situations that I can't escape from unless someone spams a gap closer on me - or I'm cc'ed at the wrong time. I've had the Ambush/Lotus spam done to me a few times, and there are ways out of it if you can get the second line of sight check to fail (a well timed roll into a cloak is the simple way).

The problem people are associating with the ambush spam from this video is unfortunately not the right one. I'd like to see both ambush spamming and shield stacking (shields replacing one another instead) resolved. That people are abusing both and calling it justified is ridiculous. With that in place, you'd be able to kill someone like Sypher without having to rely on a glitch in the game.

Shield stacking is intended and therefore not an exploit, ambush spam locks the player in place and renders them defenseless, which is a bug. People then exploit the bug.

-Says the person who just rerolled a NB and does this all the time lol

Someone rez me! I have been rekt!

And honestly I don't ambush spam, I wb or SA spam

maxjapank

Valen_Byte wrote: »

Well, most of what I read was nothing more than someone trying to convince everyone that there opinion is the right one..

Players complain when their play style is hampered. A Sorc is not happy if they can't streak away or use their moveability to their advantage. A Nightblade would not be happy if they used a gap closer, but didn't have the chance to land a melee hit. Templars are unhappy that their gap closer often fails to go off at all, and when it does, it often locks them out of using skills. Anything, whether it be shields that completely renders the other player's crit chance useless or animation canceling which takes away from a players visual reaction timing are complained about...if it causes you to lose the fight.

I feel that everyone often has a valid reason for their complaints. But I also find it funny how some are very quiet about things that give them the advantage.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

There are two discussions going on in this single thread. One is about game combat mechanics. The other is all the zergy, exploity, spammy guilds accusing each other of Zerging, exploiting and spamming. You all do it. It's an arms race and a symptom of the very broken mechanics we are attempting to talk about. Perhaps if we focused on getting the problems fixed instead of accusing eachother of using them in the mean time (since they are damn effective) we would actually get something accomplished. It is sort of entertaining though. Every forum post turns into this:



Now if you would all kindly take your 501 CP alts out of blackwater blade and go back to the Zergy, spammy, exploity hell you have all created for yourselves I would be most appreciative.

MormondPayne_EP

Katinas wrote: »

Skillbar blinking from shield spam. "Ohh, the Ambush spam". L2P shield spammer.

Really? Get out, just get out...

MisterBigglesworth

Thanks to Sypher's insightful video I started using Lotus Fan spam over the weekend.

It is indeed very troll. I think one of the reasons it's so effective is that it almost always connects in high lag situations, mainly for 2 reasons:
1. No minimum range
2. When you use it it automatically centers your reticle directly onto your target, so there is no need to actually target them, hence they can try to go around or behind you but it's like your camera is magnetized to them.

Makkir

Defensive Rune

JaJaLuka

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Dont even know how people here are defending anything related to gap closer abuse right now.

Because they are the ones using it and enjoy easy kills.

Etaniel

Typhoios wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

ridiculous game, just spam one ability)))

wondering every day that so many players still playing this .... boring ... gameplay

or its not boring for some amount of people?

Only bad players do what they just did. If they didn't outnumber him Sypher would have beaten any of those guys easily. The combat in this game is really fun. Don't let these idiots fool you.

Erm that's the problem though. Bad players can kill good players because of dumb game mechanics. They are not fooling anyone, it's the cold hard truth, bad gameplay is rewarded in this game

Rook_Master

What else are they supposed to do when he can just spam BE to get away?

Makes perfect sense from the NB point of view. These NBs are not 'bads', they just know that ambush keeps him rooted with the semi-secret gap-closer root.

frozywozy

Ambush itself is not a problem in a 1v1. It's a legit move. Problem is when it's combined with fear, the snare coming with it and the fact that the nb can reset the fight anytime he desires because by the time you use shuffle or purge to remove the snares, he is already far away.

Ambush also becomes a problem when it's getting spammed by multiple nbs at the same time because of the perma root. Unfortunetly and as it was mentioned before, in a game with every skills being spammable, without any sort of cooldowns or diminishing returns, there is no real solution to endorse other than waiting for Zenimax to find a way to make gap closers work without mini-stunning their targets.

Nightblades mechanics remain still very strong though. Ambush doesn't require a direct path to be used. It can also be used on the Y axis. It can be used while remaining in stealth and be followed by a surprise attack stunning the opponent (the best burst ability in the game). And with the mix of fear + cloak + shadow image, he has the total control of the fight and can run away anytime and regain his ressources.

GG Zenimax

OGLezard

no different then the massive amounts of crit charge into wb spam happening last night with you guys lololololol I watched as your group crit charged into the same person, then all went into WB spam. Such skill!

it is either Ambush spam by mutliple nightblades or crit charge/wb spam by anyone using 2h. Pick your poison, this is the game ZoS gave us. Those who dont want to play like that are at a HUGE disadvantage. There is no build diversity in this game whatsoever. Everyone grabs the same sets depending on mag/stam then slot the same skills and proceed to "use the rotation" I.e. spam whatever is the most OP combo at the time.

GG

frozywozy

OGLezard wrote: »

no different then the massive amounts of crit charge into wb spam happening last night with you guys lololololol I watched as your group crit charged into the same person, then all went into WB spam. Such skill!

it is either Ambush spam by mutliple nightblades or crit charge/wb spam by anyone using 2h. Pick your poison, this is the game ZoS gave us. Those who dont want to play like that are at a HUGE disadvantage. There is no build diversity in this game whatsoever. Everyone grabs the same sets depending on mag/stam then slot the same skills and proceed to "use the rotation" I.e. spam whatever is the most OP combo at the time.

GG

Pretty much. I chose TESO over other mmos because I'm a huge fan of the lore. But I dislike spammable mechanics and would rather have cooldowns and diminishing returns. Rotations get much more complex and change accordingly to the target / class / spec you are engaging.

Celas_Dranacea

Make it so you can't use this ability within 5-8 meters or whatever and problem is solved.

I think well known streamers are gonna face stuff like this way more than the average player. They're being hunted constantly by people who want to be able to say they killed sypher etc.

Sorry Sypher/Fengrush etc you guys are awesome and this is the price of your fame.

I understand this is a potential exploit but I for one have never been stun locked by ambush. Run w a group and have your buddies kill the *** whose doing that.

Starshadw

Teargrants wrote: »

It's not 'exactly' the same. Gap closers have an inherent root + all skills silence that applies for a split second when the gap closer is casted. That this exists is not up for debate, Eric Wrobel has confirmed it himself, stating it was added to prevent people from moving out of gap closer range and causing the gap closer to fail after cast. It's a very poor solution to that problem and causes a whole host of other issues being as this effect does not obey the normal CC system at all.

As far as things like Concealed Weapon bugging out and causing unbreakable CC or taking too long to CC break, that's a separate problem w/ the general CC system that also needs to be addressed. It's also particularly noticeable w/ Fossilize + Wrecking Blow combo, often Wrecking Blow will CC you while inside the hard CC of Fossilize.

My point is this:

I'd like to see them fix cc immunity and break free before they continue mucking about with skills. Who knows how having these two mechanics working correctly and reliably could change things. And these two mechanics affect a LOT of skills.

All too often, I'm frustrated by watching ZOS treat various symptoms (aka skills) and not the disease (broken base mechanics like cc immunity, break-free, and the Champion Point system. The latter got a minor tweak with the new point cap, but it still needs work).

frozywozy wrote: »

Ambush itself is not a problem in a 1v1. It's a legit move. Problem is when it's combined with fear, the snare coming with it and the fact that the nb can reset the fight anytime he desires because by the time you use shuffle or purge to remove the snares, he is already far away.

Ambush also becomes a problem when it's getting spammed by multiple nbs at the same time because of the perma root. Unfortunetly and as it was mentioned before, in a game with every skills being spammable, without any sort of cooldowns or diminishing returns, there is no real solution to endorse other than waiting for Zenimax to find a way to make gap closers work without mini-stunning their targets.

This. So much this. And sadly, there aren't many players out there who won't use an exploit or broken mechanic if it gives them an advantage. It's a shame, because as usual, part of the hot mess state of PvP boils down to "This is why we can't have nice things" because there will always be players out there who will look for the cheats and exploits to gain the upper hand.

RinaldoGandolphi

Gap Closers need to be changed and really the only fair fix i see on both sides is:

1. The Gap closer doesn't target the player, instead it targets an "area" and when the charge occurs any player standing in destination spot are damaged or whatever, you don't put any red circle or any warning there, it just happens. If a player moves out of the area before the Gap closer reaches, then the player just charges to the location.

2. The mechanics of gap closers needs to change because there is no way to balance them currently with how they work...as long as they target a player instead of an area, ZOS will either be forced to freeze you in place, or they will have to go back to the old way where the cast would fail if you move.

Best thing to do is when a Gap closer is targeted at a player, when you push that button the target is changed to X and Y coordinates and the player charges to those coordinates and any player within 5m of those coordinates takes damage and is snared, etc, if I move away then you simply charge to the location....its really the only compromise that will ever work with these skills, neither side gets 100% of what they want, but neither side gets 100% of what they want either.

As it stands now, Gap closers will never work as long as the player is the target at the end of the charge because ZOS is forced to hold you in place else it fails, changing the target to a map location instead of the player and adding a small 5m AOE at the location when the player ends the charge is really the only way i see as making this even remotely fair on both sides.

Of i know folks agree to disagree, but no one ever agrees with any compromise 100%, but i don't really see any other way forward with this, if we remove the root in place and leave it as is, they will fail cast and people will complain, if we leave them how they are now, folks will just spam them locking peoples bars and freezing them in place...I don't see any other compromise other then what i proposed that doesn't favor 1 side more then the other.

PS: if need be nerf Bolt Escape's teleport distance if folks are so worried about it, afterall whats another nerf, its already had 7...another won't really matter at this point.

Crown

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

I think well known streamers are gonna face stuff like this way more than the average player.

It's not that they're facing it more often, it's that when they complain about it they have a few hundred obsessive fans who will make it the purpose of their existence for a few minutes/hours/days to repeat the complaint until everyone they know can acknowledge that they are just as awesome as their idol since they complain about the same thing.

It doesn't matter who you are, if you play regularly you'll see the spambush.

Lucky28

frozywozy wrote: »

So you're complaining that you would have to shield stack huh? Do you realize what a stam class has to stack to be able to survive? It gives us not more than 3-4 damaging abilities. The rest us all buffs. All a sorc needs to survive is Hardened Ward, Healing Ward and Efficient purge (optional) to get ride of purges. But with streak, it's not really required since you can escape and LoS your opponent.

Wait, you're saying that you're going to have to stack harness ? Boo ;(

I think I'm gonna cry now. Poor magicka sorc *cuddles*

I've said this before here. however, i like having to think about how i'm going to kill another player rather than just spam my damage abilities and i have to shift my approach when i fight Sorcs, Nightblades or DK's using Scales. So yes, i don't appreciate it when people try and make ZoS take that aspect out of the game.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Dont even know how people here are defending anything related to gap closer abuse right now.

Not Defending it. Just saying the other Gap closers are the bigger offenders when it comes to freezing up your bar. This is mostly due to the fact that Ambush is instant.

FENGRUSH

Its weird because this topic doesnt really require much discussion at all - yet theres so much off topic unrelated points of view that dont even address the issue in the video.

Crown

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Its weird because this topic doesnt really require much discussion at all - yet theres so much off topic unrelated points of view that dont even address the issue in the video.

That's what makes topics like this so entertaining!

Ezareth

Eric @Wrobel needs to pull his head out of his rear and revert gap closers back to their initial mechanics.

The mini-stun associated with a gap closer is just short-sighted and a bandaid to what was then a problem. Now like bandaid fixes are wont to do, we're dealing with a bigger issue than the one it was meant to address. It doesn't matter who you are when you get 3 people spamming gap closers on you over and over you're going to be unable to respond and are as good as dead. A stamina user has the best chance of surviving the longest due to dodge roll but magicka users are pretty much screwed.

I can't even PvP for long any more. My flipping left-click breaks *constantly*. I counted 7 times in an hour last night before I just rage quit and almost every time it happens when I'm focus-fired with 2-5 gap closers from different people. You lose the ability to block or break free and until you alt tab out of the game and click on something then tab back in or do a /reloadui your character is broken. I seem to be affected by this more than anyone I know, perhaps it has to do with my stand ard defensive combination of block and dodge roll or whatever, I don't have the patience to figure it out but I shouldn't have to.

They need to start making bug fixes and combat fixes faster than the standard 3 month patch releases...dealing with this bug for 4+ months now is absolutely unacceptable.

manny254

Teargrants wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

All well and good, but I believe what I see and his is what I see. We don't always outnumber you. There are plenty of fights, keep takes even where you guys have as many in raid as we do, sometimes even a friendly red raid in the inner with you. It doesn't matter, you do the same thing every time.

Alomar wrote: »

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything.

Ehhhhhhhhh, except our tactics don't consist of exploiting known bugs. So can I please have the exact number at which exploiting meteor fall damage bug en masse goes from 'good' to 'bad'? I ask because it isn't just some meteors dropping here and there, it's 5+ meteors popping at once with your group always being in the same spot on the ledge halfway up the breach side stairs. You guys don't do giant meteor showers outside of stairs that can proc the fall dmg bug, in open field you guys mainly go bats. If meteor is just because it's a good ult and fall damage has nothing to do with it, then why this duality?

Change our tactics and spread out? Are you secretly Frozn posting on Beast's acct? How pray tell does a raid spread out as it goes through the inner breach? Snake out and go in a couple at a time so that heals, barriers, purges don't work optimally? About your comparison to zergs and lag, balling up and pain training is how you kill them and stop the lag. You lead a raid, you do the same thing when you have the people - as does every other organized guild in the game. Pretending like it's irresponsible or something is just facetious.

Nor is his whole meteor discussion with you just a VE thing, I'm not here talking to you as the voice of VE or anything like that, I'm sure Mano and Mojican have plenty of their own to say on the matter.

Ahem...

Zavus wrote: »

Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over
-Methuselah

Alomar wrote: »

Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

Two points, we usually had 20+ ppl in our nightly havoc raids, Annon and rhm used to get pretty pissed when we had less than that, I know cuz I ran with them. At least up until our reroll to blue. I'm not calling havoc out on anything. Second, lag wasn't as bad? I beg to differ, it was 'different' for sure, but just as bad as far as I'm concerned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TdBGbojeFo

While you take what Meth said to heart, I see it as a joke to stir the pot with you.

That's nice, I'll just start saying anything inconvenient to my argument was a joke. Thanks for the tip. The point is it would be one thing if those kind of comments were just unsubstantiated words on a forum, but they aren't. It's an observed tactic specific to your guild that every guild that fights you can attest to.

Alomar wrote: »

There are multiple factual inaccuracies in your post mate. We have and do use meteors outside of keeps and away from choke points all the time. Yet, we're not stupid we use it when we have the element of surprise on a large stack standing still or relatively still, otherwise other ultimates fit situations better. Like I said we use the ultimate for it's benefits if there was no fall damage bug we'd continue to use it when we are unable to push directly into a group for reasons such as it's size and lag. There is no direct intention to kill people from fall damage on my end, yet keep believing whatever excuses you need to when you die.

No direct intent to kill people from fall damage? It just so happens that every single fight on stairs or a steep slope involves a meteor shower bomb instead of a bats bomb or any other kind of bomb? And before you do, please don't give me the 'it's still the best ult not factoring in fall damage' line. Meteor gives a glowing circle at your feet telling you to block, can be reflected, can be 'cleansed' by Purify, it costs about twice as much as Dawnbreaker for about the same initial burst dmg, the snare is removed instantly by Rapid spam, the dot is removed by Negates, and to top it all off it's not conducive to precise placing because there's no controlling where the target runs after you cast it on them. In contrast, Negate/Nova/Leap ect bombs are very effective in a tight place like stairs. By no means am I trying to tell you how to run your group, but don't expect me to believe that you have no intention of killing people with fall damage.

Alomar wrote: »

Attempting to say meteor causes lag this patch is dumb and that Havoc used meteors during the period where they did cause lag is false. Neither are true, and you know this

Huh? Show me where I said either of those things, because I didn't. I never said anything about meteor causing lag. I never said anything about Havoc using Meteor. The only guild I have been addressing is 'your guild', the guild you lead, Haxus.

Alomar wrote: »

as you also know Havoc never ever had an average of 20 man sized groups, not even in it's peek.

That's a bald faced lie, Beast. You know it, I know it, as do many of us in VE who were a part of Havoc pretty much since its inception and ran with them on a daily basis. Daytime raids were usually about 12-15 but Havoc absolutely did have upwards of 20~ in raid during primetime. Why are we debating this one way or the other? Why does the size of Havoc, a guild that no longer exists in this game, matter?

Alomar wrote: »

You also know Havoc never had a use for coordinated meteors and therefore never used them, also because during 1.5/1.6 lag it was known to cause lag.

Again, I haven't said a single thing about Havoc and Meteors, perhaps other people have but you're replying to the wrong person.

Alomar wrote: »

Regarding the 1.6 lag VE 30 mans caused I never said anything about entering a keep breach mate. You found one time where people always stack up and forget about the rest? As we both know large groups spamming aoes running together caused severe lag in 1.6, just like I said. VE knew this and won because of this not in keep breaches, but EVERYWHERE including open fields.

I would point out that max group size keeps us at 24 ppl. As for inner breaches, that comes up because that is where the Meteor fall damage shower happens 90% of the time. If you haven't noticed, Meteor fall damage is what people are calling you out on. Why do you keep talking about lag though?

Rudyard

LMAO! I suspect this video must have something to do with 2 NBs spamming only Ambush on me for 30+ seconds last night while I kept popping healing ward. They looked like a pair of crazy bunny rabbits jumping up and down on either side of me, same skill over and over. It's pretty funny to see, even if you happen to die to it.