lol

JDar

Elong wrote: »

Sorry Zheg, fall damage is something that doesn't get discussed, and certainly isn't a group tactic. You can take your tin foil hat off whenever you're ready.

Have we not had the Fall Damage Unicorn in here lately? Did it get banned?

Xsorus

JDar wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Sorry Zheg, fall damage is something that doesn't get discussed, and certainly isn't a group tactic. You can take your tin foil hat off whenever you're ready.

Have we not had the Fall Damage Unicorn in here lately? Did it get banned?

No; it can't be here cause it had a burrito

LegendaryChef

I feel ambush is a skill which shows clear skill within the NB class, when you use it multiple times in a row on a player it's not buggy at all a and allows them to move really freely and play as they like.

To spam ambush requires a large amount of skill and a brain.

PainfulFAFA

LegendaryChef wrote: »

I feel ambush is a skill which shows clear skill within the NB class, when you use it multiple times in a row on a player it's not buggy at all a and allows them to move really freely and play as they like.

To spam ambush requires a large amount of skill and a brain.

Not to mention timing and coordination.
Key factors for using ambush!

zyk

Xeniph wrote: »

As for some of you saying this is bad gameplay, that's debatable. If you watch the clip, the fight starts fairly normal. Ambush into a Surprise attack. But as Sypher gets more mobile, so must the NB's. Now I think it's a perfectly valid tactic for one NB to spam Ambush to lock down Sypher while allowing others to do the dps and finish him. I think the only reason both were using it nearly exclusive at one points was because they were 2 random pugs and thus could not coordinate appropriately.

Actually, I'm pretty sure these were experienced players from a well known guild playing alts. Experienced enough that they weren't going to allow Sypher to embarrass one on his stream by allowing him to recover. Sypher had already broken LOS and recovered earlier. And no, the the correct approach in this scenario isn't to simply let the Sorc get away. [as someone suggested]

I don't think the intention of the players was to stun lock. And as others have noted, that is not an automatic result from spamming ambush. They were simply trying to close gap on a player trying to create gap.

To those who suggested I don't understand the issue, that is untrue. It is not a bug. It is not an exploit. It is how the ability is designed. ZOS has explained why gap closers function the way they do. I don't agree with its position, but that doesn't make it an exploit. Exploit in this context is short for 'exploiting an unintended mechanic/bug'. This is entirely intended.

This game is full of cheese. Sypher is often a practitioner of it. We all are -- to someone out there.

[edited out an unnecessary rant about damage shields ]

JaJaLuka

It makes me laugh that people are defending the hitching issue and saying it's fair play, clearly a one sided argument from people who either are fine with exploiting or only play NB. I play all classes and I know that this is a really bad state for Ambush to be in and whether or not you consider it to be fair play or not, it needs to change. The stun from Ambush, sure it's fair game, the skill bar lock and immobilize caused by the hitch that all gap closers have, imo it's a bug.
As far as 'letting the sorc get away', lol, that's not what I said. I said "if" he gets away, you've still won the fight, but you should not be able to immobilize his bars like that and stop him from being able to get away or even fight back, so I disagreed that spamming Ambush was justified.
Ambush + fear or range him down is all fair game as I'm sure there are many other options available other than spamming that gap closer. You notice even when he was immobile, the Ambushes kept coming? Yeah... not just trying to keep up with his streak there.

Crown

I'd like to point out that a Lotus Fan or Ambush is one of the very very few ways to ensure that a NB spamming cloak, a stam build roll dodging continuously, or a Sorc who can streak 5 times in a row won't get away. It's usually not worth a group's time to chase after a single player, though when said player becomes particularly irritating and insists on coming back to hit our group, we will have one of our NBs spam it on him to keep him visible for the kill. Note that only ONE of us will do so most of the time.

I myself have done it to @Sypher and while it did feel kinda dirty, there's no way that I want to deal with resurrecting the 2-3 people on the outside of my siege line that he'll kill before we have a wall down. We have an unspoken understanding with some of the gankers now - leave my group alone, and we won't chase you down across half the map. Incidentally, when we do chase someone down like that there are points awarded to the person who gets the killing blow. Next week's award for the most points is a stack of tri-pots.

I've been playing mostly solo (magicka NB) the past two weeks, and there are very few situations that I can't escape from unless someone spams a gap closer on me - or I'm cc'ed at the wrong time. I've had the Ambush/Lotus spam done to me a few times, and there are ways out of it if you can get the second line of sight check to fail (a well timed roll into a cloak is the simple way).

JaJaLuka

Crown wrote: »

I'd like to point out that a Lotus Fan or Ambush is one of the very very few ways to ensure that a NB spamming cloak, a stam build roll dodging continuously, or a Sorc who can streak 5 times in a row won't get away. It's usually not worth a group's time to chase after a single player, though when said player becomes particularly irritating and insists on coming back to hit our group, we will have one of our NBs spam it on him to keep him visible for the kill. Note that only ONE of us will do so most of the time.

I myself have done it to @Sypher and while it did feel kinda dirty, there's no way that I want to deal with resurrecting the 2-3 people on the outside of my siege line that he'll kill before we have a wall down. We have an unspoken understanding with some of the gankers now - leave my group alone, and we won't chase you down across half the map. Incidentally, when we do chase someone down like that there are points awarded to the person who gets the killing blow. Next week's award for the most points is a stack of tri-pots.

I've been playing mostly solo (magicka NB) the past two weeks, and there are very few situations that I can't escape from unless someone spams a gap closer on me - or I'm cc'ed at the wrong time. I've had the Ambush/Lotus spam done to me a few times, and there are ways out of it if you can get the second line of sight check to fail (a well timed roll into a cloak is the simple way).

The problem people are associating with the ambush spam from this video is unfortunately not the right one. I'd like to see both ambush spamming and shield stacking (shields replacing one another instead) resolved. That people are abusing both and calling it justified is ridiculous. With that in place, you'd be able to kill someone like Sypher without having to rely on a glitch in the game.

Morbash

The best part about this thread: all the exploiters posting in here to justify their "tactics."

k2blader

JaJaLuka wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

I'd like to point out that a Lotus Fan or Ambush is one of the very very few ways to ensure that a NB spamming cloak, a stam build roll dodging continuously, or a Sorc who can streak 5 times in a row won't get away. It's usually not worth a group's time to chase after a single player, though when said player becomes particularly irritating and insists on coming back to hit our group, we will have one of our NBs spam it on him to keep him visible for the kill. Note that only ONE of us will do so most of the time.

I myself have done it to @Sypher and while it did feel kinda dirty, there's no way that I want to deal with resurrecting the 2-3 people on the outside of my siege line that he'll kill before we have a wall down. We have an unspoken understanding with some of the gankers now - leave my group alone, and we won't chase you down across half the map. Incidentally, when we do chase someone down like that there are points awarded to the person who gets the killing blow. Next week's award for the most points is a stack of tri-pots.

I've been playing mostly solo (magicka NB) the past two weeks, and there are very few situations that I can't escape from unless someone spams a gap closer on me - or I'm cc'ed at the wrong time. I've had the Ambush/Lotus spam done to me a few times, and there are ways out of it if you can get the second line of sight check to fail (a well timed roll into a cloak is the simple way).

The problem people are associating with the ambush spam from this video is unfortunately not the right one. I'd like to see both ambush spamming and shield stacking (shields replacing one another instead) resolved. That people are abusing both and calling it justified is ridiculous. With that in place, you'd be able to kill someone like Sypher without having to rely on a glitch in the game.

Wait, you're equating Ambush spamming with shield stacking? They are completely different issues. Keep them on separate threads at least. Lord knows we haven't had enough anti shield-stacking/spamming threads as it is. /sarcasm

k2blader

maxjapank wrote: »

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

I would like to remind everyone that he was using shield to help avoid those damage. Imagine someone who doesn't have shields?2.

Nothing wrong with shields. Use them. But uncrittable shields are poor design.

I see folks saying this; however if shields were made crittable then shields should be able to crit too. Why do I have a feeling most "shields should be crit" folks wouldn't like that.

JaJaLuka

k2blader wrote: »

JaJaLuka wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

I'd like to point out that a Lotus Fan or Ambush is one of the very very few ways to ensure that a NB spamming cloak, a stam build roll dodging continuously, or a Sorc who can streak 5 times in a row won't get away. It's usually not worth a group's time to chase after a single player, though when said player becomes particularly irritating and insists on coming back to hit our group, we will have one of our NBs spam it on him to keep him visible for the kill. Note that only ONE of us will do so most of the time.

I myself have done it to @Sypher and while it did feel kinda dirty, there's no way that I want to deal with resurrecting the 2-3 people on the outside of my siege line that he'll kill before we have a wall down. We have an unspoken understanding with some of the gankers now - leave my group alone, and we won't chase you down across half the map. Incidentally, when we do chase someone down like that there are points awarded to the person who gets the killing blow. Next week's award for the most points is a stack of tri-pots.

I've been playing mostly solo (magicka NB) the past two weeks, and there are very few situations that I can't escape from unless someone spams a gap closer on me - or I'm cc'ed at the wrong time. I've had the Ambush/Lotus spam done to me a few times, and there are ways out of it if you can get the second line of sight check to fail (a well timed roll into a cloak is the simple way).

The problem people are associating with the ambush spam from this video is unfortunately not the right one. I'd like to see both ambush spamming and shield stacking (shields replacing one another instead) resolved. That people are abusing both and calling it justified is ridiculous. With that in place, you'd be able to kill someone like Sypher without having to rely on a glitch in the game.

Wait, you're equating Ambush spamming with shield stacking? They are completely different issues. Keep them on separate threads at least. Lord knows we haven't had enough anti shield-stacking/spamming threads as it is. /sarcasm

People see the problem with mage steak as being major mobility over every other class, which I find strange... that's the whole point. It has been brought up already in this thread. Personally I think by removing shield stacking you would be able to burst DPS down the sorc before he or she is able to get away in the first place. The issue with it is that sorcs are both tanky and have huge mobility and the player has to sacrifice nothing to gain both.
The reason I brought it up is because sorc's mobility (not just sorc to be fair, but one of course that's in speculation in this thread) is being used to justify ambush spam.
My point is that you should never justify one glitch or bug because of another, it creates further imbalances within an already messy game.
On a side note; I think seeing if shields replacing one another works before they get tested to see if crittable shields are viable. The reason is that shields are the equivalent to unarmoured health while not blocking (ie, no damage mitigation) and would get chewed up extremely quickly making sorcs possibly go the opposite way and be underpowered.

Derra

Xeniph wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Crit rush, Invasion etc have a minimal range you need to have to your opponent
Ambush does not, which makes it a "idiotproof" gap closer.

Now one might ask WHY does it not have a minimal range needed? Only ZOS knows the answer to this question, actually I am not even sure if they know lul

Teleport Strike, Ambush and Lotus Fan do not have a minimum range because they are specifically designed to combo with Surprise Attack(5m) and Concealed Weapon (5m) to deliver the stun effect. Ambush is the only gap closer that has an immobilize, or rather that is supposed to have. Now all gap closers have that mini hitch because of lazy coding. It's design was intended to give the NB control over melee combat situations, or more specifically positional superiority.

This is exactly why it does not break Cloak either, to facilitate the stun (If the player knows what they are doing)

Concealed Weapon, Ambush and Teleport Strike do NOT stun you, or prevent/interrupt any actions you may be doing, with one exception.
Ambush is capable of receiving the "stealth" attack modifier, allowing it to stun you once per encounter from stealth, not invisibility. Just like other abilities and light/heavy attacks.

Some of you people need to stop spreading false information, learn the differences between morphs and character states before crying foul.

Ambush has a 1 second immobolize Ie..you stop moving for 1 second.
Lotus Fan has an AoE Snare

Surprise Attack and Concealed Weapon both stun from stealth and invisibility.

*Special Note- Immobilize, root and snare have no CC immunity currently in ESO.*

Now to add some perspective I'll list some abilities that benefit more from this non-immunity.

1.Bombard
2. Talons
3. Encase

As for some of you saying this is bad gameplay, that's debatable. If you watch the clip, the fight starts fairly normal. Ambush into a Surprise attack. But as Sypher gets more mobile, so must the NB's. Now I think it's a perfectly valid tactic for one NB to spam Ambush to lock down Sypher while allowing others to do the dps and finish him. I think the only reason both were using it nearly exclusive at one points was because they were 2 random pugs and thus could not coordinate appropriately.

I also dare anyone to deny that in this situation, we would not see Crit Rush or Invasion spammed just as much if not more, since neither has an immobilize, every time he Bolted.

Generally speaking, I believe there are 2 instances where Ambush spam is good form/gameplay.

1. Locking down a particularly pesky runner, so your group/alliance mates can kill them.
2. Locking down Mistformers so your group/alliance mates can kill them.

Basically using Ambush as a utility ability rather than for dps. (think Bombard spamming)

Just my 2 cents.

You don´t understand the problem. Yay for an opinion on a topic you don´t grasp the basics of.

The issue is not the root ambush should/does apply after it landed. It´s the root silence (not effected by any immunity in the game) it does apply during its animation before it lands (like every gapcloser).

BRogueNZ

Derra wrote: »

The issue is not the root ambush should/does apply after it landed. It´s the root silence (not effected by any immunity in the game) it does apply during its animation before it lands (like every gapcloser).

Yes, that's the issue imo too.. when 'they' all suggest we learn how to play and that we can just dodge and block datshit that would be all well and good if you weren't sitting like a stunned mullet with frozen skills well before the gap is actually closed.

makes me grrr and hiss and stuff, I think its a mainly a latency issue but I've no way of knowing if its strictly the case

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

What I learned from this video

A. Ambush and Lotus need a min range like every other Gap Closer

B. Sorcs are still to tanky for a glass cannon..Like virtually every other class would of died far sooner in that video from that..Except Sorc..

What you were seeing was mainly the result of healing ward, which is still way too strong on any class.

No it's not.. It is not a result of healing ward.. And if you think it is I'll challenge you to go make a video of you standing there face tanking 4 nightblades spamming ambush on you with just healing ward

I can do that on my nightblade. With healing ward and swallow soul (it´s never only one skill used)
A templar can do it too.

Can´t comment on a DK because i don´t have one.

It´s an extremer issue (or lets say easier for ppl underperforming on other characters) on sorc due to shieldstacking - of which zos should get rid of one way or the other (i´d prefer reworking harness and healward instead of nonstack or minor/major shields).

Lord-Stien

Troll camps... inc.

Alomar

Teargrants wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

FMonk wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

But can Sypher survive gap closers

Lol please. Haxus nightblades are notorious for abusing this ***. You guys have good enough players that you don't need to abuse things like this and fall damage on stairs, stop doing it.

With 250 days played on my sorc. I can say, whats wrong with using cheap (broken) skills to counter other cheap (broken) skills. I'm looking at you non critable shield stacking. (Or vice versa. Using non critable shield stacking to negate ambush spammers) Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over and we have things like AoE caps that empower the numbers game . Not to mention fall dmg supposed to be fixed months ago. Killing a few in large raids means nothing, with kags set ppl pop right back up and into the fight no rez sickness adding to the AoE cap. With further reduced dmg last patch I don't even call you guys pugs anymore. You're just AoE caps to me.


-Methuselah

There are plenty of times that you guys do this even when you do the outnumbering. Even when we have similar numbers and we're in open field and there's friendly "come fight me" banter, I still see you guys maneuvering to find an incline, stairs, whatever. Even if it's just for lols at that point - repeatedly, and knowingly using an incredibly broken mechanic like that starts to put those players into the same category as the sorc who shall not be named that used to bug out damage mitigation on his shields. We're not talking about dual wield hammers kinda broken, we're talking about oneshotting multiple people with no counter other than to never leave flat ground. The players in haxus are good enough to win without relying on broken oneshot mechanics, even when outnumbered; it's beneath you, and it diminishes all of the skillful play you guys do outside of it.

Zavus wrote: »

I could write a whole essay on this, but I'll go back ingame and meteor fall dmg ppl until enough complain and something is done to fix it. Thought you would know thats how this works by now.

We've been complaining about it forever, and the few things that have been fixed due to complaints (exploiting into outposts, etc.) took many long months for a fix to even worm its way into a patch. You guys are using it either for the lols, or because it's easy. Most players realize when a bug/exploit is so past the point of broken that it shouldn't even be used. I've never had to worry about yellow doing this us. Why are you even in pvp if you're just looking to hit one button and oneshot people without them even being able to do anything about it? It's sad, and you really shouldn't continue trying to defend it - there's no way that this turns out well.

Sorry Zheg, fall damage is something that doesn't get discussed, and certainly isn't a group tactic. You can take your tin foil hat off whenever you're ready.

Because it's not like every single time I walk into an inner breach, I don't know you guys will be balled up standing on the little ledge half way up the stairs about to drop a Meteor shower on us. That's not something that's up for debate, I'm sure any guild that's gone up against you guys in the past few months can confirm.

As I recall, months ago after the 1st time we encountered this tactic that "isn't a group tactic", we were told in no unclear terms that exploiting the Meteor fall dmg was purposeful and we would be seeing it consistently in the future because it was quote, "the only way to beat your Barrier/Steel Tornado spam group." Everything I have seen since has simply continued to confirm this assertion.

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything. Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

maxjapank

k2blader wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

I would like to remind everyone that he was using shield to help avoid those damage. Imagine someone who doesn't have shields?2.

Nothing wrong with shields. Use them. But uncrittable shields are poor design.

I see folks saying this; however if shields were made crittable then shields should be able to crit too. Why do I have a feeling most "shields should be crit" folks wouldn't like that.

I see nothing wrong with that. Damage can crit. Heals can crit. Why not shields? Actually I thought they did. Guess I have something to learn. But the argument about letting shields benefit from armor, spell, physical resistance...like someone said...is one of the silliest things I've heard.

azoriangaming

wow these nb have so much skill haha

BigTone

Easy fix: All gap closers get the same treatment as roll dodge, if you spam it the cost increases exponentially.

Takllin

Alomar wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

FMonk wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

But can Sypher survive gap closers

Lol please. Haxus nightblades are notorious for abusing this ***. You guys have good enough players that you don't need to abuse things like this and fall damage on stairs, stop doing it.

With 250 days played on my sorc. I can say, whats wrong with using cheap (broken) skills to counter other cheap (broken) skills. I'm looking at you non critable shield stacking. (Or vice versa. Using non critable shield stacking to negate ambush spammers) Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over and we have things like AoE caps that empower the numbers game . Not to mention fall dmg supposed to be fixed months ago. Killing a few in large raids means nothing, with kags set ppl pop right back up and into the fight no rez sickness adding to the AoE cap. With further reduced dmg last patch I don't even call you guys pugs anymore. You're just AoE caps to me.


-Methuselah

There are plenty of times that you guys do this even when you do the outnumbering. Even when we have similar numbers and we're in open field and there's friendly "come fight me" banter, I still see you guys maneuvering to find an incline, stairs, whatever. Even if it's just for lols at that point - repeatedly, and knowingly using an incredibly broken mechanic like that starts to put those players into the same category as the sorc who shall not be named that used to bug out damage mitigation on his shields. We're not talking about dual wield hammers kinda broken, we're talking about oneshotting multiple people with no counter other than to never leave flat ground. The players in haxus are good enough to win without relying on broken oneshot mechanics, even when outnumbered; it's beneath you, and it diminishes all of the skillful play you guys do outside of it.

Zavus wrote: »

I could write a whole essay on this, but I'll go back ingame and meteor fall dmg ppl until enough complain and something is done to fix it. Thought you would know thats how this works by now.

We've been complaining about it forever, and the few things that have been fixed due to complaints (exploiting into outposts, etc.) took many long months for a fix to even worm its way into a patch. You guys are using it either for the lols, or because it's easy. Most players realize when a bug/exploit is so past the point of broken that it shouldn't even be used. I've never had to worry about yellow doing this us. Why are you even in pvp if you're just looking to hit one button and oneshot people without them even being able to do anything about it? It's sad, and you really shouldn't continue trying to defend it - there's no way that this turns out well.

Sorry Zheg, fall damage is something that doesn't get discussed, and certainly isn't a group tactic. You can take your tin foil hat off whenever you're ready.

Because it's not like every single time I walk into an inner breach, I don't know you guys will be balled up standing on the little ledge half way up the stairs about to drop a Meteor shower on us. That's not something that's up for debate, I'm sure any guild that's gone up against you guys in the past few months can confirm.

As I recall, months ago after the 1st time we encountered this tactic that "isn't a group tactic", we were told in no unclear terms that exploiting the Meteor fall dmg was purposeful and we would be seeing it consistently in the future because it was quote, "the only way to beat your Barrier/Steel Tornado spam group." Everything I have seen since has simply continued to confirm this assertion.

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything. Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

This one time at band camp, you guys did something I didn't like so I don't care what you say! :P

Good thing it's not just VE calling you out on this ***, right?

BigTone

JaJaLuka wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

I'd like to point out that a Lotus Fan or Ambush is one of the very very few ways to ensure that a NB spamming cloak, a stam build roll dodging continuously, or a Sorc who can streak 5 times in a row won't get away. It's usually not worth a group's time to chase after a single player, though when said player becomes particularly irritating and insists on coming back to hit our group, we will have one of our NBs spam it on him to keep him visible for the kill. Note that only ONE of us will do so most of the time.

I myself have done it to @Sypher and while it did feel kinda dirty, there's no way that I want to deal with resurrecting the 2-3 people on the outside of my siege line that he'll kill before we have a wall down. We have an unspoken understanding with some of the gankers now - leave my group alone, and we won't chase you down across half the map. Incidentally, when we do chase someone down like that there are points awarded to the person who gets the killing blow. Next week's award for the most points is a stack of tri-pots.

I've been playing mostly solo (magicka NB) the past two weeks, and there are very few situations that I can't escape from unless someone spams a gap closer on me - or I'm cc'ed at the wrong time. I've had the Ambush/Lotus spam done to me a few times, and there are ways out of it if you can get the second line of sight check to fail (a well timed roll into a cloak is the simple way).

The problem people are associating with the ambush spam from this video is unfortunately not the right one. I'd like to see both ambush spamming and shield stacking (shields replacing one another instead) resolved. That people are abusing both and calling it justified is ridiculous. With that in place, you'd be able to kill someone like Sypher without having to rely on a glitch in the game.

Shield stacking is intended and therefore not an exploit, ambush spam locks the player in place and renders them defenseless, which is a bug. People then exploit the bug.

Darnathian

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Grampa_Smurf wrote: »

This guy actually deserves a magblade medal LOL. Do you have any idea how hard it is to land that many Concealed Weapons in a row? That is assuming of course that the target wasn't afk or didn't know how to CC break the first stun.

not that hard. you did it to me yesterday leaving Allessia farm towards Faragyl while i was on horseback.

Darnathian

Elong wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

FMonk wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

But can Sypher survive gap closers

Lol please. Haxus nightblades are notorious for abusing this ***. You guys have good enough players that you don't need to abuse things like this and fall damage on stairs, stop doing it.

With 250 days played on my sorc. I can say, whats wrong with using cheap (broken) skills to counter other cheap (broken) skills. I'm looking at you non critable shield stacking. (Or vice versa. Using non critable shield stacking to negate ambush spammers) Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over and we have things like AoE caps that empower the numbers game . Not to mention fall dmg supposed to be fixed months ago. Killing a few in large raids means nothing, with kags set ppl pop right back up and into the fight no rez sickness adding to the AoE cap. With further reduced dmg last patch I don't even call you guys pugs anymore. You're just AoE caps to me.


-Methuselah

There are plenty of times that you guys do this even when you do the outnumbering. Even when we have similar numbers and we're in open field and there's friendly "come fight me" banter, I still see you guys maneuvering to find an incline, stairs, whatever. Even if it's just for lols at that point - repeatedly, and knowingly using an incredibly broken mechanic like that starts to put those players into the same category as the sorc who shall not be named that used to bug out damage mitigation on his shields. We're not talking about dual wield hammers kinda broken, we're talking about oneshotting multiple people with no counter other than to never leave flat ground. The players in haxus are good enough to win without relying on broken oneshot mechanics, even when outnumbered; it's beneath you, and it diminishes all of the skillful play you guys do outside of it.

Zavus wrote: »

I could write a whole essay on this, but I'll go back ingame and meteor fall dmg ppl until enough complain and something is done to fix it. Thought you would know thats how this works by now.

We've been complaining about it forever, and the few things that have been fixed due to complaints (exploiting into outposts, etc.) took many long months for a fix to even worm its way into a patch. You guys are using it either for the lols, or because it's easy. Most players realize when a bug/exploit is so past the point of broken that it shouldn't even be used. I've never had to worry about yellow doing this us. Why are you even in pvp if you're just looking to hit one button and oneshot people without them even being able to do anything about it? It's sad, and you really shouldn't continue trying to defend it - there's no way that this turns out well.

Sorry Zheg, fall damage is something that doesn't get discussed, and certainly isn't a group tactic. You can take your tin foil hat off whenever you're ready.

I've repeatedly baited multiple meteor bombs by stepping on stairs. It happens so much with y'all, and as the thread shows it's not coincidence

I'm pretty chilled about this sort of stuff as you know mate, but it's not a coordinated effort.

I've died to fall damage as much as everyone else, everyone is in the same boat.

huh? he admitted it.

Manoekin

BigTone wrote: »

JaJaLuka wrote: »

Crown wrote: »

I'd like to point out that a Lotus Fan or Ambush is one of the very very few ways to ensure that a NB spamming cloak, a stam build roll dodging continuously, or a Sorc who can streak 5 times in a row won't get away. It's usually not worth a group's time to chase after a single player, though when said player becomes particularly irritating and insists on coming back to hit our group, we will have one of our NBs spam it on him to keep him visible for the kill. Note that only ONE of us will do so most of the time.

I myself have done it to @Sypher and while it did feel kinda dirty, there's no way that I want to deal with resurrecting the 2-3 people on the outside of my siege line that he'll kill before we have a wall down. We have an unspoken understanding with some of the gankers now - leave my group alone, and we won't chase you down across half the map. Incidentally, when we do chase someone down like that there are points awarded to the person who gets the killing blow. Next week's award for the most points is a stack of tri-pots.

I've been playing mostly solo (magicka NB) the past two weeks, and there are very few situations that I can't escape from unless someone spams a gap closer on me - or I'm cc'ed at the wrong time. I've had the Ambush/Lotus spam done to me a few times, and there are ways out of it if you can get the second line of sight check to fail (a well timed roll into a cloak is the simple way).

The problem people are associating with the ambush spam from this video is unfortunately not the right one. I'd like to see both ambush spamming and shield stacking (shields replacing one another instead) resolved. That people are abusing both and calling it justified is ridiculous. With that in place, you'd be able to kill someone like Sypher without having to rely on a glitch in the game.

Shield stacking is intended and therefore not an exploit, ambush spam locks the player in place and renders them defenseless, which is a bug. People then exploit the bug.

It's not a bug, just stupid gameplay.

Joy_Division

Alomar wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

FMonk wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

But can Sypher survive gap closers

Lol please. Haxus nightblades are notorious for abusing this ***. You guys have good enough players that you don't need to abuse things like this and fall damage on stairs, stop doing it.

With 250 days played on my sorc. I can say, whats wrong with using cheap (broken) skills to counter other cheap (broken) skills. I'm looking at you non critable shield stacking. (Or vice versa. Using non critable shield stacking to negate ambush spammers) Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over and we have things like AoE caps that empower the numbers game . Not to mention fall dmg supposed to be fixed months ago. Killing a few in large raids means nothing, with kags set ppl pop right back up and into the fight no rez sickness adding to the AoE cap. With further reduced dmg last patch I don't even call you guys pugs anymore. You're just AoE caps to me.


-Methuselah

There are plenty of times that you guys do this even when you do the outnumbering. Even when we have similar numbers and we're in open field and there's friendly "come fight me" banter, I still see you guys maneuvering to find an incline, stairs, whatever. Even if it's just for lols at that point - repeatedly, and knowingly using an incredibly broken mechanic like that starts to put those players into the same category as the sorc who shall not be named that used to bug out damage mitigation on his shields. We're not talking about dual wield hammers kinda broken, we're talking about oneshotting multiple people with no counter other than to never leave flat ground. The players in haxus are good enough to win without relying on broken oneshot mechanics, even when outnumbered; it's beneath you, and it diminishes all of the skillful play you guys do outside of it.

Zavus wrote: »

I could write a whole essay on this, but I'll go back ingame and meteor fall dmg ppl until enough complain and something is done to fix it. Thought you would know thats how this works by now.

We've been complaining about it forever, and the few things that have been fixed due to complaints (exploiting into outposts, etc.) took many long months for a fix to even worm its way into a patch. You guys are using it either for the lols, or because it's easy. Most players realize when a bug/exploit is so past the point of broken that it shouldn't even be used. I've never had to worry about yellow doing this us. Why are you even in pvp if you're just looking to hit one button and oneshot people without them even being able to do anything about it? It's sad, and you really shouldn't continue trying to defend it - there's no way that this turns out well.

Sorry Zheg, fall damage is something that doesn't get discussed, and certainly isn't a group tactic. You can take your tin foil hat off whenever you're ready.

Because it's not like every single time I walk into an inner breach, I don't know you guys will be balled up standing on the little ledge half way up the stairs about to drop a Meteor shower on us. That's not something that's up for debate, I'm sure any guild that's gone up against you guys in the past few months can confirm.

As I recall, months ago after the 1st time we encountered this tactic that "isn't a group tactic", we were told in no unclear terms that exploiting the Meteor fall dmg was purposeful and we would be seeing it consistently in the future because it was quote, "the only way to beat your Barrier/Steel Tornado spam group." Everything I have seen since has simply continued to confirm this assertion.

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything. Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

Your S%*& stinks just as bad as everyone else's, no matter how much you believe Havoc's "average" raid excused them partaking in the very tactics you condemn.

zyk

I watched this video again this morning. In general, the only times Sypher's bar is greyed out is while casting inevitable detonation, stunned or roll dodging -- at least until our view of him is blocked by a tree and we can't see his character to know its state. There are a couple of other times when his bar is greyed out, but only during one of them was ambush used--if ambush is the cause of it, why do we not see it other times when ambush is used?

Throughout multiple stretches, he is able to cast through persistent ambush spam. So if this issue is as bad as some say, I don't think it's represented in this video. Not conclusively, at least. To those unfamiliar with ambush, it is intended to immobilize: http://www.esohead.com/skills/25484-ambush

The recap is not reflective of everything thrown at him because he was low health under a damage shield for an extended period of time. I do not believe damage entirely absorbed by a damage shield is displayed in death recaps. So he may been stunned while obscured by the tree, unable to break free because of low stamina. His addon may have been slow in displaying the break-free message--it happens.

krim

What i learned from this game. If you do anything that gives you an advantage. Your an exploiter. You spam impulse your an exploiter. You permablock your an exploiter. Streak? your an exploiter. If you are having more fun than me your an exploiter and if you are actually using a real exploit your an exploiter. The word we have seen on this forum more than any. Exploit, everything is an exploit.

FENGRUSH

zyk wrote: »

I watched this video again this morning. In general, the only times Sypher's bar is greyed out is while casting inevitable detonation, stunned or roll dodging -- at least until our view of him is blocked by a tree and we can't see his character to know its state. There are a couple of other times when his bar is greyed out, but only during one of them was ambush used--if ambush is the cause of it, why do we not see it other times when ambush is used?

Throughout multiple stretches, he is able to cast through persistent ambush spam. So if this issue is as bad as some say, I don't think it's represented in this video. Not conclusively, at least. To those unfamiliar with ambush, it is intended to immobilize: http://www.esohead.com/skills/25484-ambush

The recap is not reflective of everything thrown at him because he was low health under a damage shield for an extended period of time. I do not believe damage entirely absorbed by a damage shield is displayed in death recaps. So he may been stunned while obscured by the tree, unable to break free because of low stamina. His addon may have been slow in displaying the break-free message--it happens.

You dont need conclusive video evidence. Try playing the game and moving/using skills while this is happening - good luck.

WRX

krim wrote: »

What i learned from this game. If you do anything that gives you an advantage. Your an exploiter. You spam impulse your an exploiter. You permablock your an exploiter. Streak? your an exploiter. If you are having more fun than me your an exploiter and if you are actually using a real exploit your an exploiter. The word we have seen on this forum more than any. Exploit, everything is an exploit.

^

Fall damage is wack, and its stupid that we have to play around it.

But previous points were just made that are all the same to me.