lol

zyk

FENGRUSH wrote: »

You dont need conclusive video evidence. Try playing the game and moving/using skills while this is happening - good luck.

It has happened to me. Many times. It's not nearly as bad as described by some in this thread. I would prefer someone to spam ambush on me than do something more effective. I have died to it and felt really dumb about it after. With that said, it is very useful and powerful by design.

Back in 1.6 when I still played a stamina nb, I would shamelessly spam ambush on streaking sorcs, and it did not appear to significantly impair their ability to cast. In general, it's not really good to spam because it's inefficient. It is very useful for chasing down runners, gankers and high mobility builds though--as one should expect from an immobilizing gap closer.

I've been away from pvp for a bit, so perhaps I'm not recollecting clearly, but I seem to recall the hitching from gap closers becomes worse as the casting distance increases. I think ambush spam might feel similar because of the immobilize, but it's not necessarily the same thing when spammed at a close range.

Darnathian

Alomar wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

FMonk wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

But can Sypher survive gap closers

Lol please. Haxus nightblades are notorious for abusing this ***. You guys have good enough players that you don't need to abuse things like this and fall damage on stairs, stop doing it.

With 250 days played on my sorc. I can say, whats wrong with using cheap (broken) skills to counter other cheap (broken) skills. I'm looking at you non critable shield stacking. (Or vice versa. Using non critable shield stacking to negate ambush spammers) Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over and we have things like AoE caps that empower the numbers game . Not to mention fall dmg supposed to be fixed months ago. Killing a few in large raids means nothing, with kags set ppl pop right back up and into the fight no rez sickness adding to the AoE cap. With further reduced dmg last patch I don't even call you guys pugs anymore. You're just AoE caps to me.


-Methuselah

There are plenty of times that you guys do this even when you do the outnumbering. Even when we have similar numbers and we're in open field and there's friendly "come fight me" banter, I still see you guys maneuvering to find an incline, stairs, whatever. Even if it's just for lols at that point - repeatedly, and knowingly using an incredibly broken mechanic like that starts to put those players into the same category as the sorc who shall not be named that used to bug out damage mitigation on his shields. We're not talking about dual wield hammers kinda broken, we're talking about oneshotting multiple people with no counter other than to never leave flat ground. The players in haxus are good enough to win without relying on broken oneshot mechanics, even when outnumbered; it's beneath you, and it diminishes all of the skillful play you guys do outside of it.

Zavus wrote: »

I could write a whole essay on this, but I'll go back ingame and meteor fall dmg ppl until enough complain and something is done to fix it. Thought you would know thats how this works by now.

We've been complaining about it forever, and the few things that have been fixed due to complaints (exploiting into outposts, etc.) took many long months for a fix to even worm its way into a patch. You guys are using it either for the lols, or because it's easy. Most players realize when a bug/exploit is so past the point of broken that it shouldn't even be used. I've never had to worry about yellow doing this us. Why are you even in pvp if you're just looking to hit one button and oneshot people without them even being able to do anything about it? It's sad, and you really shouldn't continue trying to defend it - there's no way that this turns out well.

Sorry Zheg, fall damage is something that doesn't get discussed, and certainly isn't a group tactic. You can take your tin foil hat off whenever you're ready.

Because it's not like every single time I walk into an inner breach, I don't know you guys will be balled up standing on the little ledge half way up the stairs about to drop a Meteor shower on us. That's not something that's up for debate, I'm sure any guild that's gone up against you guys in the past few months can confirm.

As I recall, months ago after the 1st time we encountered this tactic that "isn't a group tactic", we were told in no unclear terms that exploiting the Meteor fall dmg was purposeful and we would be seeing it consistently in the future because it was quote, "the only way to beat your Barrier/Steel Tornado spam group." Everything I have seen since has simply continued to confirm this assertion.

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything. Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

lol. Translation. we are outnumbered so this is why we exploit. you start by saying only listen to you three but then you come up with a fancy way of saying ya we exploit but its okay because we are outnumbered. that was a good read. ty.

PainfulFAFA

Darnathian wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Elong wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

FMonk wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

But can Sypher survive gap closers

Lol please. Haxus nightblades are notorious for abusing this ***. You guys have good enough players that you don't need to abuse things like this and fall damage on stairs, stop doing it.

With 250 days played on my sorc. I can say, whats wrong with using cheap (broken) skills to counter other cheap (broken) skills. I'm looking at you non critable shield stacking. (Or vice versa. Using non critable shield stacking to negate ambush spammers) Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over and we have things like AoE caps that empower the numbers game . Not to mention fall dmg supposed to be fixed months ago. Killing a few in large raids means nothing, with kags set ppl pop right back up and into the fight no rez sickness adding to the AoE cap. With further reduced dmg last patch I don't even call you guys pugs anymore. You're just AoE caps to me.


-Methuselah

There are plenty of times that you guys do this even when you do the outnumbering. Even when we have similar numbers and we're in open field and there's friendly "come fight me" banter, I still see you guys maneuvering to find an incline, stairs, whatever. Even if it's just for lols at that point - repeatedly, and knowingly using an incredibly broken mechanic like that starts to put those players into the same category as the sorc who shall not be named that used to bug out damage mitigation on his shields. We're not talking about dual wield hammers kinda broken, we're talking about oneshotting multiple people with no counter other than to never leave flat ground. The players in haxus are good enough to win without relying on broken oneshot mechanics, even when outnumbered; it's beneath you, and it diminishes all of the skillful play you guys do outside of it.

Zavus wrote: »

I could write a whole essay on this, but I'll go back ingame and meteor fall dmg ppl until enough complain and something is done to fix it. Thought you would know thats how this works by now.

We've been complaining about it forever, and the few things that have been fixed due to complaints (exploiting into outposts, etc.) took many long months for a fix to even worm its way into a patch. You guys are using it either for the lols, or because it's easy. Most players realize when a bug/exploit is so past the point of broken that it shouldn't even be used. I've never had to worry about yellow doing this us. Why are you even in pvp if you're just looking to hit one button and oneshot people without them even being able to do anything about it? It's sad, and you really shouldn't continue trying to defend it - there's no way that this turns out well.

Sorry Zheg, fall damage is something that doesn't get discussed, and certainly isn't a group tactic. You can take your tin foil hat off whenever you're ready.

Because it's not like every single time I walk into an inner breach, I don't know you guys will be balled up standing on the little ledge half way up the stairs about to drop a Meteor shower on us. That's not something that's up for debate, I'm sure any guild that's gone up against you guys in the past few months can confirm.

As I recall, months ago after the 1st time we encountered this tactic that "isn't a group tactic", we were told in no unclear terms that exploiting the Meteor fall dmg was purposeful and we would be seeing it consistently in the future because it was quote, "the only way to beat your Barrier/Steel Tornado spam group." Everything I have seen since has simply continued to confirm this assertion.

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything. Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

lol. Translation. we are outnumbered so this is why we exploit. you start by saying only listen to you three but then you come up with a fancy way of saying ya we exploit but its okay because we are outnumbered. that was a good read. ty.

Yep, good read lmfao!

Xeniph

Derra wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Crit rush, Invasion etc have a minimal range you need to have to your opponent
Ambush does not, which makes it a "idiotproof" gap closer.

Now one might ask WHY does it not have a minimal range needed? Only ZOS knows the answer to this question, actually I am not even sure if they know lul

Teleport Strike, Ambush and Lotus Fan do not have a minimum range because they are specifically designed to combo with Surprise Attack(5m) and Concealed Weapon (5m) to deliver the stun effect. Ambush is the only gap closer that has an immobilize, or rather that is supposed to have. Now all gap closers have that mini hitch because of lazy coding. It's design was intended to give the NB control over melee combat situations, or more specifically positional superiority.

This is exactly why it does not break Cloak either, to facilitate the stun (If the player knows what they are doing)

Concealed Weapon, Ambush and Teleport Strike do NOT stun you, or prevent/interrupt any actions you may be doing, with one exception.
Ambush is capable of receiving the "stealth" attack modifier, allowing it to stun you once per encounter from stealth, not invisibility. Just like other abilities and light/heavy attacks.

Some of you people need to stop spreading false information, learn the differences between morphs and character states before crying foul.

Ambush has a 1 second immobolize Ie..you stop moving for 1 second.
Lotus Fan has an AoE Snare

Surprise Attack and Concealed Weapon both stun from stealth and invisibility.

*Special Note- Immobilize, root and snare have no CC immunity currently in ESO.*

Now to add some perspective I'll list some abilities that benefit more from this non-immunity.

1.Bombard
2. Talons
3. Encase

As for some of you saying this is bad gameplay, that's debatable. If you watch the clip, the fight starts fairly normal. Ambush into a Surprise attack. But as Sypher gets more mobile, so must the NB's. Now I think it's a perfectly valid tactic for one NB to spam Ambush to lock down Sypher while allowing others to do the dps and finish him. I think the only reason both were using it nearly exclusive at one points was because they were 2 random pugs and thus could not coordinate appropriately.

I also dare anyone to deny that in this situation, we would not see Crit Rush or Invasion spammed just as much if not more, since neither has an immobilize, every time he Bolted.

Generally speaking, I believe there are 2 instances where Ambush spam is good form/gameplay.

1. Locking down a particularly pesky runner, so your group/alliance mates can kill them.
2. Locking down Mistformers so your group/alliance mates can kill them.

Basically using Ambush as a utility ability rather than for dps. (think Bombard spamming)

Just my 2 cents.

You don´t understand the problem. Yay for an opinion on a topic you don´t grasp the basics of.

The issue is not the root ambush should/does apply after it landed. It´s the root silence (not effected by any immunity in the game) it does apply during its animation before it lands (like every gapcloser).

I understand what folks are saying. I wholeheartedly disagree. I have successfully casted every spell while being Crit Rushed, Ambushed and Invasioned, sometimes from all 3 at the same time and I experience the "hitch" but not the silence you speak of.

List of spells that were not effected

Rally, Vigor, Lingering ritual, Purifying Ritual- Well lets just say I have yet to see any gap closer "silence me"

At this point I believe we can all agree to disagree until there is some video proof either way.

Zheg

Alomar wrote: »

...In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything.

In 1.5-1.6 where lag was horrendous, spamming meteor by players would case more lag than organized groups. Yet, did the Havok remnants ever change their tactics and not hit their meteor button along with the pugs, much less use a different ulti? No, they would show up and be unkillable as no one could die in that lag while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills as the server tried to catch up to the 50+ meteors and banners being spammed. I'm not blaming the Havok remnants for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything.

You implied yourself in your post that you utilize the broken fall damage to combat groups that outnumber you. Your guildies have directly said that you try and use fall damage to kill strong groups. While the original goal may have been to switch to a ranged ult that everyone can use at the same time, the fact is you guys will wait halfway up the stairs to use the meteors not because of the l33t damage this highly counterable (on flat gound...) ultimate has, but because you'll get 1-7 people oneshotted as a group tries to go through the breech/up stairs/up rocks/up a hill. If you guys were to bomb with meteors on the flags (or any flat ground at all), maybe people would believe you.

When we're outnumbered and running small, or when any yellow group I've ever encountered is running small, no one sits atop stairs to fart out fall damage. It's not because we don't know how to do it, we just have enough respect for the players we're fighting (and ourselves) to not need to use cheap one-shots like that. The people in Haxus are good players that can hold their own when outnumbered - without trying to intentionally cause fall damage. Meteor causes oneshots on any incline because of how the damage is calculated based on the position it was cast on you, not the position you're at when it hits. Blocks, immovable, doesn't matter - there's no way to counter this (I'm pretty sure even reflect bugs out, though it's hard to confirm with the cluster**** of ranged stuff coming your way when you push a breach). You know this, everyone knows this. If you're going to continue to use meteor as your group's ulti bomb and feign innocence of the fall damage it causes, that's fine, but you'll need to do so on flat ground at least once in a while for that to be even remotely believable. You can't take the high ground on this when you're literally always using it ... on the high ground. I don't see meteors flying from you guys when your opponents are on flat ground, and I never see the portions of fights where you wait atop stairs to meteor in the daily haxus videos, so stop insulting everyone's intelligence. If you're going to do it, fine, to each their own - but you don't get to play dumb or get salty when people call you out on it - even less so when your guildies flat out admit it.

As for the other cheap and broken mechanics shown in the OP, yeah, ambush is the worst of the gap closers, but they all have issues that need to be fixed. We still have broken camo hunter procs to contend with as well.

mtwiggz

Think it's more strange that between the majority of your ability casts you light attacked. Even when an enemy wasn't in your view. Habit or... ?

PainfulFAFA

mtwiggz wrote: »

Think it's more strange that between the majority of your ability casts you light attacked. Even when an enemy wasn't in your view. Habit or... ?

How else do you gain ultimate? -_-

Anyways, I will criticize him a bit. He has a single target build which is why he couldnt fight all the of them at the same time.
I guarantee you if he had thrown mines, proxi det, lightning splash, an Atro, or a meteor those NBs would stop the ambush spam. Ambush is annoying as f*** but there are ways to counter it.

Teargrants

Alomar wrote: »

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

All well and good, but I believe what I see and his is what I see. We don't always outnumber you. There are plenty of fights, keep takes even where you guys have as many in raid as we do, sometimes even a friendly red raid in the inner with you. It doesn't matter, you do the same thing every time.

Alomar wrote: »

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything.

Ehhhhhhhhh, except our tactics don't consist of exploiting known bugs. So can I please have the exact number at which exploiting meteor fall damage bug en masse goes from 'good' to 'bad'? I ask because it isn't just some meteors dropping here and there, it's 5+ meteors popping at once with your group always being in the same spot on the ledge halfway up the breach side stairs. You guys don't do giant meteor showers outside of stairs that can proc the fall dmg bug, in open field you guys mainly go bats. If meteor is just because it's a good ult and fall damage has nothing to do with it, then why this duality?

Change our tactics and spread out? Are you secretly Frozn posting on Beast's acct? How pray tell does a raid spread out as it goes through the inner breach? Snake out and go in a couple at a time so that heals, barriers, purges don't work optimally? About your comparison to zergs and lag, balling up and pain training is how you kill them and stop the lag. You lead a raid, you do the same thing when you have the people - as does every other organized guild in the game. Pretending like it's irresponsible or something is just facetious.

Nor is his whole meteor discussion with you just a VE thing, I'm not here talking to you as the voice of VE or anything like that, I'm sure Mano and Mojican have plenty of their own to say on the matter.

Ahem...

Zavus wrote: »

Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over
-Methuselah

Alomar wrote: »

Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

Two points, we usually had 20+ ppl in our nightly havoc raids, Annon and rhm used to get pretty pissed when we had less than that, I know cuz I ran with them. At least up until our reroll to blue. I'm not calling havoc out on anything. Second, lag wasn't as bad? I beg to differ, it was 'different' for sure, but just as bad as far as I'm concerned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TdBGbojeFo

Derra

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Crit rush, Invasion etc have a minimal range you need to have to your opponent
Ambush does not, which makes it a "idiotproof" gap closer.

Now one might ask WHY does it not have a minimal range needed? Only ZOS knows the answer to this question, actually I am not even sure if they know lul

Teleport Strike, Ambush and Lotus Fan do not have a minimum range because they are specifically designed to combo with Surprise Attack(5m) and Concealed Weapon (5m) to deliver the stun effect. Ambush is the only gap closer that has an immobilize, or rather that is supposed to have. Now all gap closers have that mini hitch because of lazy coding. It's design was intended to give the NB control over melee combat situations, or more specifically positional superiority.

This is exactly why it does not break Cloak either, to facilitate the stun (If the player knows what they are doing)

Concealed Weapon, Ambush and Teleport Strike do NOT stun you, or prevent/interrupt any actions you may be doing, with one exception.
Ambush is capable of receiving the "stealth" attack modifier, allowing it to stun you once per encounter from stealth, not invisibility. Just like other abilities and light/heavy attacks.

Some of you people need to stop spreading false information, learn the differences between morphs and character states before crying foul.

Ambush has a 1 second immobolize Ie..you stop moving for 1 second.
Lotus Fan has an AoE Snare

Surprise Attack and Concealed Weapon both stun from stealth and invisibility.

*Special Note- Immobilize, root and snare have no CC immunity currently in ESO.*

Now to add some perspective I'll list some abilities that benefit more from this non-immunity.

1.Bombard
2. Talons
3. Encase

As for some of you saying this is bad gameplay, that's debatable. If you watch the clip, the fight starts fairly normal. Ambush into a Surprise attack. But as Sypher gets more mobile, so must the NB's. Now I think it's a perfectly valid tactic for one NB to spam Ambush to lock down Sypher while allowing others to do the dps and finish him. I think the only reason both were using it nearly exclusive at one points was because they were 2 random pugs and thus could not coordinate appropriately.

I also dare anyone to deny that in this situation, we would not see Crit Rush or Invasion spammed just as much if not more, since neither has an immobilize, every time he Bolted.

Generally speaking, I believe there are 2 instances where Ambush spam is good form/gameplay.

1. Locking down a particularly pesky runner, so your group/alliance mates can kill them.
2. Locking down Mistformers so your group/alliance mates can kill them.

Basically using Ambush as a utility ability rather than for dps. (think Bombard spamming)

Just my 2 cents.

You don´t understand the problem. Yay for an opinion on a topic you don´t grasp the basics of.

The issue is not the root ambush should/does apply after it landed. It´s the root silence (not effected by any immunity in the game) it does apply during its animation before it lands (like every gapcloser).

I understand what folks are saying. I wholeheartedly disagree. I have successfully casted every spell while being Crit Rushed, Ambushed and Invasioned, sometimes from all 3 at the same time and I experience the "hitch" but not the silence you speak of.

List of spells that were not effected

Rally, Vigor, Lingering ritual, Purifying Ritual- Well lets just say I have yet to see any gap closer "silence me"

At this point I believe we can all agree to disagree until there is some video proof either way.

It´s a working as intended mechanic it was even stated by the developers that this is the case. Why do you need more evidence? They even stated they are looking into this silencing mechanic.

Maybe you can also play with 500+ ping and it´s not an issue for you - for other people it is very much an issue. Just because you don´t experience something (that is a gamefeature stated by the devs) as a problem you can´t entirely dismiss it.

If this was the case no video evidence in the world could give you the prove you´re asking for because you simply don´t notice it (right now we´re standing in front of a red wall and people agree it´s red, the painter says it´s red - you´re colorblind and therefor declare the wall gray - nobody can prove to you the wall is red bc you´re unable to see it - sadtimes).

Alucardo

zyk wrote: »

I watched this video again this morning. In general, the only times Sypher's bar is greyed out is while casting inevitable detonation, stunned or roll dodging -- at least until our view of him is blocked by a tree and we can't see his character to know its state. There are a couple of other times when his bar is greyed out, but only during one of them was ambush used--if ambush is the cause of it, why do we not see it other times when ambush is used?

Throughout multiple stretches, he is able to cast through persistent ambush spam. So if this issue is as bad as some say, I don't think it's represented in this video. Not conclusively, at least. To those unfamiliar with ambush, it is intended to immobilize: http://www.esohead.com/skills/25484-ambush

The recap is not reflective of everything thrown at him because he was low health under a damage shield for an extended period of time. I do not believe damage entirely absorbed by a damage shield is displayed in death recaps. So he may been stunned while obscured by the tree, unable to break free because of low stamina. His addon may have been slow in displaying the break-free message--it happens.

Elementary my dear watson.

Zavus

Takllin wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

You guys even get baited on the forums. If you've pvp'd me at all you'd know I use bats. trolololol
MOAR HEALING SPRINGS

I didn't realize you were the entirety of Haxus.

Teargrants wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

All well and good, but I believe what I see and his is what I see. We don't always outnumber you. There are plenty of fights, keep takes even where you guys have as many in raid as we do, sometimes even a friendly red raid in the inner with you. It doesn't matter, you do the same thing every time.

Alomar wrote: »

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything.

Ehhhhhhhhh, except our tactics don't consist of exploiting known bugs. So can I please have the exact number at which exploiting meteor fall damage bug en masse goes from 'good' to 'bad'? I ask because it isn't just some meteors dropping here and there, it's 5+ meteors popping at once with your group always being in the same spot on the ledge halfway up the breach side stairs. You guys don't do giant meteor showers outside of stairs that can proc the fall dmg bug, in open field you guys mainly go bats. If meteor is just because it's a good ult and fall damage has nothing to do with it, then why this duality?

Change our tactics and spread out? Are you secretly Frozn posting on Beast's acct? How pray tell does a raid spread out as it goes through the inner breach? Snake out and go in a couple at a time so that heals, barriers, purges don't work optimally? About your comparison to zergs and lag, balling up and pain training is how you kill them and stop the lag. You lead a raid, you do the same thing when you have the people - as does every other organized guild in the game. Pretending like it's irresponsible or something is just facetious.

Nor is his whole meteor discussion with you just a VE thing, I'm not here talking to you as the voice of VE or anything like that, I'm sure Mano and Mojican have plenty of their own to say on the matter.

Ahem...

Zavus wrote: »

Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over
-Methuselah

Alomar wrote: »

Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

Two points, we usually had 20+ ppl in our nightly havoc raids, Annon and rhm used to get pretty pissed when we had less than that, I know cuz I ran with them. At least up until our reroll to blue. I'm not calling havoc out on anything. Second, lag wasn't as bad? I beg to differ, it was 'different' for sure, but just as bad as far as I'm concerned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TdBGbojeFo

You guys act like this is something new or done by one guild exclusively. You know as well as I do it's been going on for at least 7 months. It's been going on so long that im starting to think its an unintended mechanic that will be adopted soon. Much like animation canceling was.

Sypher

mtwiggz wrote: »

Think it's more strange that between the majority of your ability casts you light attacked. Even when an enemy wasn't in your view. Habit or... ?

A very benificial habit.

Teargrants

Zavus wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

You guys even get baited on the forums. If you've pvp'd me at all you'd know I use bats. trolololol
MOAR HEALING SPRINGS

I didn't realize you were the entirety of Haxus.

Teargrants wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

All well and good, but I believe what I see and his is what I see. We don't always outnumber you. There are plenty of fights, keep takes even where you guys have as many in raid as we do, sometimes even a friendly red raid in the inner with you. It doesn't matter, you do the same thing every time.

Alomar wrote: »

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything.

Ehhhhhhhhh, except our tactics don't consist of exploiting known bugs. So can I please have the exact number at which exploiting meteor fall damage bug en masse goes from 'good' to 'bad'? I ask because it isn't just some meteors dropping here and there, it's 5+ meteors popping at once with your group always being in the same spot on the ledge halfway up the breach side stairs. You guys don't do giant meteor showers outside of stairs that can proc the fall dmg bug, in open field you guys mainly go bats. If meteor is just because it's a good ult and fall damage has nothing to do with it, then why this duality?

Change our tactics and spread out? Are you secretly Frozn posting on Beast's acct? How pray tell does a raid spread out as it goes through the inner breach? Snake out and go in a couple at a time so that heals, barriers, purges don't work optimally? About your comparison to zergs and lag, balling up and pain training is how you kill them and stop the lag. You lead a raid, you do the same thing when you have the people - as does every other organized guild in the game. Pretending like it's irresponsible or something is just facetious.

Nor is his whole meteor discussion with you just a VE thing, I'm not here talking to you as the voice of VE or anything like that, I'm sure Mano and Mojican have plenty of their own to say on the matter.

Ahem...

Zavus wrote: »

Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over
-Methuselah

Alomar wrote: »

Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

Two points, we usually had 20+ ppl in our nightly havoc raids, Annon and rhm used to get pretty pissed when we had less than that, I know cuz I ran with them. At least up until our reroll to blue. I'm not calling havoc out on anything. Second, lag wasn't as bad? I beg to differ, it was 'different' for sure, but just as bad as far as I'm concerned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TdBGbojeFo

You guys act like this is something new or done by one guild exclusively. You know as well as I do it's been going on for at least 7 months. It's been going on so long that im starting to think its an unintended mechanic that will be adopted soon. Much like animation canceling was.

Are you high? No seriously, are you? Because for whatever reason you simply didn't read or didn't comprehend my post or really any post in this thread about the meteor issue.

The Fall Damage Shower(TM) as described is the tactic of waiting on the ledge half way up breach side stairs on the inner to rain one shot bugs on the poor sods coming in the breach. As a group. This is a tactic spearheaded in the recent months by pretty much just your guild. No other organized group on NA uses it as coordinated, precisely, consistently, or purposefully as you guys do. To the point where I don't even have to scout anymore in sieges because I know you guys will be right there on the same ledge every time the inner goes down. Other individuals have abused meteor, sure, but no where as systemically as what we are discussing.

And please "like animation cancelling"? How facetious can you get? I know you're just doing a poor job of trolling now, but alas I guess I'm still in the mood to respond. First off animation cancelling has been repeatedly stated by devs as a legit though unintended mechanic - and all new content has been designed around it.

'Infinite' fall damage is not and has never been acknowledged as legit. In fact it has been acknowledged as a bug which the devs tried to fix. If you recall last year fall damage was removed entirely from Cyrodiil for about a month while the devs worked on a fix. In the end the fix didn't fix all sources of bugged fall damage. This is nothing new. We've had issues with abilities causing health bar desyncs and multiple attempts to fix them. At no point did anyone proffer the notion that "well health desync will probably be adopted as a feature", because that would be patently stupid.

Joy_Division

Zavus wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

You guys even get baited on the forums. If you've pvp'd me at all you'd know I use bats. trolololol
MOAR HEALING SPRINGS

I didn't realize you were the entirety of Haxus.

Teargrants wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

All well and good, but I believe what I see and his is what I see. We don't always outnumber you. There are plenty of fights, keep takes even where you guys have as many in raid as we do, sometimes even a friendly red raid in the inner with you. It doesn't matter, you do the same thing every time.

Alomar wrote: »

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything.

Ehhhhhhhhh, except our tactics don't consist of exploiting known bugs. So can I please have the exact number at which exploiting meteor fall damage bug en masse goes from 'good' to 'bad'? I ask because it isn't just some meteors dropping here and there, it's 5+ meteors popping at once with your group always being in the same spot on the ledge halfway up the breach side stairs. You guys don't do giant meteor showers outside of stairs that can proc the fall dmg bug, in open field you guys mainly go bats. If meteor is just because it's a good ult and fall damage has nothing to do with it, then why this duality?

Change our tactics and spread out? Are you secretly Frozn posting on Beast's acct? How pray tell does a raid spread out as it goes through the inner breach? Snake out and go in a couple at a time so that heals, barriers, purges don't work optimally? About your comparison to zergs and lag, balling up and pain training is how you kill them and stop the lag. You lead a raid, you do the same thing when you have the people - as does every other organized guild in the game. Pretending like it's irresponsible or something is just facetious.

Nor is his whole meteor discussion with you just a VE thing, I'm not here talking to you as the voice of VE or anything like that, I'm sure Mano and Mojican have plenty of their own to say on the matter.

Ahem...

Zavus wrote: »

Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over
-Methuselah

Alomar wrote: »

Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

Two points, we usually had 20+ ppl in our nightly havoc raids, Annon and rhm used to get pretty pissed when we had less than that, I know cuz I ran with them. At least up until our reroll to blue. I'm not calling havoc out on anything. Second, lag wasn't as bad? I beg to differ, it was 'different' for sure, but just as bad as far as I'm concerned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TdBGbojeFo

You guys act like this is something new or done by one guild exclusively. You know as well as I do it's been going on for at least 7 months. It's been going on so long that im starting to think its an unintended mechanic that will be adopted soon. Much like animation canceling was.

7 months? The stupidity of the stack-on-crown lag-inducing tactics have been tried and true since at least the summer of 2014 if not earlier that has been continuously abused by groups and guilds looking for an advantage to win. nobody or one guild is being singled out. People are getting called out for disingenuously claiming to be above that when their hands are just as dirty as those they condemn. Run 30 and stack on crown, I don't care. This to be expected; I don't send passive-aggressive, salty, or outright offensive tells asking people to adopt inefficient builds or sub-optimal legal tactics. Specifically trying to kill enemies that are deemed "too strong" for whatever reasons via fall damage by a known bug is completely different and utter horsecrap.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Now that gap closers hard counter streak, we can remove the cost penalties. Right?

Jules

I really just want to know how Sypher's thread got hijacked and is now a VE v. Haxus thread.
This sh-- is so old and stale. Everyone chill.

pronkg

zyk wrote: »

I don't love gap closers. I use them occasionally, but in general I think they're kind of cheap. If you saw me spamming Lotus Fan a few weeks ago, it was because it is so infrequently on a bar that I spammed it thinking it was a different ability--one less controversial to spam. (because we all spam something in this game.)

But I don't see a problem with the events in this video. Obviously mobility is a big part of your game and a big part of Sorc gameplay. You were constantly on the move, so yeah, these melee builds closed that gap before you broke LOS and recovered. Why would they give you a chance to unload a combo on one and maybe get a kill?

Perhaps it can be argued that all gap closers should be subject to the same cost rule as bolt escape and its morphs.

The problem is not the fact they can spam ambush. The problem is when they do it your character goes into mental breakdown mode, unable to cast, unable to move, unable to turn around.

Game breaking stuff for pvp. I know many people who just stopped pvping (including me) cause of the frustration some of these broken skills cause.

It's ridiculous, I made my NB into a Pve tank for gold keys until this is fixed I feel ashamed even playing this class.

Teargrants

Jules wrote: »

I really just want to know how Sypher's thread got hijacked and is now a VE v. Haxus thread.
This sh-- is so old and stale. Everyone chill.

Pretty sure it's something to do with Tom Brady and deflated footballs...

Now then...


PS: Don't worry, I'll mail you more DK buffs when I get home.

Rust_in_Peace

Jules wrote: »

I really just want to know how Sypher's thread got hijacked and is now a VE v. Haxus thread.
This sh-- is so old and stale. Everyone chill.

It's all they have really.

Tomato

Ok so.... Nerf NB's and Meteor. You can close this thread now.

Zheg

Jules wrote: »

I really just want to know how Sypher's thread got hijacked and is now a VE v. Haxus thread.
This sh-- is so old and stale. Everyone chill.

Haxus was called out for ambush spam and fall damage on page 1, meth responded, asked what was wrong with using fall damage when outnumbered, and the obvious happened - as I'd say the majority of the playerbase are against oneshot exploits like that. That's how

The guild v guild drama is old and stale, agreed. The hush hush about fall damage, not so much. There's frankly no good way of discussing it without a few haxus people going defcon 5 mode on salt and defense, so it's been avoided (not just by VE, clearly there are plenty of other people who think poorly of it, as this thread is starting to demonstrate). Kirsi and I didn't get involved in the discussion because we're in VE, we got involved because we're pvpers that have to put up with that crap every night and feel like it's a cheap tactic in the same league as a certain former sorc who'd bug out mitigation on his shields (though maybe kirsi wouldn't go that far). Part of the reason it's snowballed so quickly is because this has been given the Fight Club treatment where you aren't supposed to talk about it, yet everyone and their mother knows about it. It doesn't help the matter when haxus members try to obfuscate and deny it, especially when it's only a few posts down from meth's. I have tons of respect for haxus, and like a super majority of its members from the few interactions I've had with them. I think intentionally trying to exploit fall damage is ridonkulous, cheap, and beneath good players, but that doesn't mean you need to share my opinion. It also doesn't mean myself and the rest of the playerbase that puts up with the fall damage shenanigans on a nightly basis need to just take it and never say boo against the people intentionally doing it, nor do we have to buy the BS argument that it's some kind of necessary tactic. I've never once had to worry about rage sitting on stairs to meteor us when we outnumber them. Their group fights and either wins or loses, same with every other yellow guild, and all of the other red ones, same with us and the blue guilds I know about. There are a few pugs aware of how to do it, but there's only one organized group that does it. If you don't like the reputation, well, frankly it's on you guys at that point.

So, I agree, there really shouldn't be guild v guild drama, we've done that in enough threads. This isn't a VE vs. haxus thing, this is a players from all walks being tired of cheap oneshot tactics. Even if VE were completely removed from the convo, there are still other people in here calling you guys out on it. Either own it, or stop doing it, it really doesn't need to be a bigger deal than that. I mean, for perspective, trying to defend your use of blatant exploits like meteor's fall damage, and then denying that you do it, how did you honestly think that would end up?

In pretty much every thread that brian has popped into I've tried to bring attention to the fall damage BS, and done so without directly calling out haxus (though it's pretty obvious to everyone). Until ZOS fixes it, or removes fall damage completely (again), or you guys stop abusing it, frankly I'm not sure what you expect from the people you kill with it, is the reaction supposed to be "well played guys!"? Back in 1.5/1.6 when people would spam meteors during fights and no skills would go off for 5+ minutes, we had a policy where if you were caught doing that, it was a gkick. I remember you would start cursing in TS and ranting as soon as the first meteor could be heard in those fights. I know not everyone in haxus does it, but frankly, given what I know about a few of you, I'm surprised there hasn't been more of an internal 'why the eff are we doing this'. You guys constantly trumpet running smaller groups, but then in the same breath put out an excuse like "well, we're outnumbered, so we need to abuse fall damage for oneshots". At that point, what can the rest of us do besides go wut?

zyk

pronkg wrote: »

The problem is not the fact they can spam ambush. The problem is when they do it your character goes into mental breakdown mode, unable to cast, unable to move, unable to turn around.

This has been debunked throughout the thread. In the video, there is no evidence ambush is preventing Sypher from casting. He casts through it whenever his character is clearly visible. The 1 second immobilize is part of the ability. Immobilization is not subject to immunity so it can be reapplied repeatedly.

I understand the general issue with the design of gap closers. I don't like how they function. However, spamming them does not result in a perma-silenced state as is being suggested. The video reinforces this. Do you not see Sypher casting through the ambush spam of at least two players throughout?

In my personal experience, I seem to recall the gap closer hitch issue being most prevalent when asynchronously cast by multiple opponents on the same target from a distance. The teleport strike line (including ambush) causes me fewer hitching issues than other gap closers -- though the immobilization and range of ambush may make it *seem* like it is the worst offender.

There are no apparent exploits in this video. The term is thrown around way too much. The victors may not win any style points, but they won the fight playing the game by its rules without exploiting unintended mechanics or bugs. Fair enough.

Huckdabuck

Zheg wrote: »

ZHEG GOES GRUMBLE GRUMBLE GRUMBLE

I hate to say this (actually may become physically ill over here) but I agree 100% with what Zheg said.

Lucky28

FENGRUSH wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I watched this video again this morning. In general, the only times Sypher's bar is greyed out is while casting inevitable detonation, stunned or roll dodging -- at least until our view of him is blocked by a tree and we can't see his character to know its state. There are a couple of other times when his bar is greyed out, but only during one of them was ambush used--if ambush is the cause of it, why do we not see it other times when ambush is used?

Throughout multiple stretches, he is able to cast through persistent ambush spam. So if this issue is as bad as some say, I don't think it's represented in this video. Not conclusively, at least. To those unfamiliar with ambush, it is intended to immobilize: http://www.esohead.com/skills/25484-ambush

The recap is not reflective of everything thrown at him because he was low health under a damage shield for an extended period of time. I do not believe damage entirely absorbed by a damage shield is displayed in death recaps. So he may been stunned while obscured by the tree, unable to break free because of low stamina. His addon may have been slow in displaying the break-free message--it happens.

You dont need conclusive video evidence. Try playing the game and moving/using skills while this is happening - good luck.

It has a mini-snare but streak can get you out of it just fine. the worse offenders are Invasion, Crit Rush etc the ones with minimum range where the freeze and silence is actually felt. Ambush Kinda shoots itself in the leg with it's lack thereof. however, that's only against sorcs (Magicka) against any other class or stam builds you're 100% correct.

RinaldoGandolphi

zyk wrote: »

This has been debunked throughout the thread.there is no evidence ambush is preventing Sypher from casting.

Actually there is, you can see breif delays where he was unable to swap weapons and the only reason he didn't die sooner was because of Mines and that pillar.

it was @Ezareth if i remember correctly that was told by Wrobel on the 1.6 PTS that they added a mini-stun and silence to all gap closers in 1.6 to prevent Sorc's from Bolting out of range after a person cast a gap closer...thats why it roots you in place, even Crit Charge will root you place breifly....i remember in 1.5 i was never rooted or locked in place and avoided gap closers all the time, now your froze and got a brief period you can't do anything, in lag situations its much worse then it was.

PS: Stampede from the Two Handed Line rooted you instead of snaring you before 1.6, where they removed the root from Stampede because it was Overpowered they said, but they had no problem giving the root to Nightblades...Teleport Strike and its morphs were better balanced when they stunned instead of rooted so you got Immunity after the 1st cast instead of this trash we have with the skill now.

MountainHound

When I see you sypher, the encouragement to spam AOE abilities only is on purpose :P

BuggeX

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

This has been debunked throughout the thread.there is no evidence ambush is preventing Sypher from casting.

Actually there is, you can see breif delays where he was unable to swap weapons and the only reason he didn't die sooner was because of Mines and that pillar.

it was @Ezareth if i remember correctly that was told by Wrobel on the 1.6 PTS that they added a mini-stun and silence to all gap closers in 1.6 to prevent Sorc's from Bolting out of range after a person cast a gap closer...thats why it roots you in place, even Crit Charge will root you place breifly....i remember in 1.5 i was never rooted or locked in place and avoided gap closers all the time, now your froze and got a brief period you can't do anything, in lag situations its much worse then it was.

PS: Stampede from the Two Handed Line rooted you instead of snaring you before 1.6, where they removed the root from Stampede because it was Overpowered they said, but they had no problem giving the root to Nightblades...Teleport Strike and its morphs were better balanced when they stunned instead of rooted so you got Immunity after the 1st cast instead of this trash we have with the skill now.

Mini stun? you mean this kinde of stun where anyone cant move while the other is crit/rushing Invasion in?
this *** sux, well mby but out a BIG ASS Line, CARE, BLOCK NOW INVASION INC.......................

Lorkhan

LOL, what is your point, op?

Runkorko

Xsorus wrote: »

What I learned from this video

A. Ambush and Lotus need a min range like every other Gap Closer

B. Sorcs are still to tanky for a glass cannon..Like virtually every other class would of died far sooner in that video from that..Except Sorc..

Psilent

I've started running defensive rune on my Sorc, which helps quite a bit.