lol

Tankqull

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Crit rush, Invasion etc have a minimal range you need to have to your opponent
Ambush does not, which makes it a "idiotproof" gap closer.

Now one might ask WHY does it not have a minimal range needed? Only ZOS knows the answer to this question, actually I am not even sure if they know lul

Teleport Strike, Ambush and Lotus Fan do not have a minimum range because they are specifically designed to combo with Surprise Attack(5m) and Concealed Weapon (5m) to deliver the stun effect. Ambush is the only gap closer that has an immobilize, or rather that is supposed to have. Now all gap closers have that mini hitch because of lazy coding. It's design was intended to give the NB control over melee combat situations, or more specifically positional superiority.

This is exactly why it does not break Cloak either, to facilitate the stun (If the player knows what they are doing)

Concealed Weapon, Ambush and Teleport Strike do NOT stun you, or prevent/interrupt any actions you may be doing, with one exception.
Ambush is capable of receiving the "stealth" attack modifier, allowing it to stun you once per encounter from stealth, not invisibility. Just like other abilities and light/heavy attacks.

Some of you people need to stop spreading false information, learn the differences between morphs and character states before crying foul.

Ambush has a 1 second immobolize Ie..you stop moving for 1 second.
Lotus Fan has an AoE Snare

Surprise Attack and Concealed Weapon both stun from stealth and invisibility.

*Special Note- Immobilize, root and snare have no CC immunity currently in ESO.*

Now to add some perspective I'll list some abilities that benefit more from this non-immunity.

1.Bombard
2. Talons
3. Encase

As for some of you saying this is bad gameplay, that's debatable. If you watch the clip, the fight starts fairly normal. Ambush into a Surprise attack. But as Sypher gets more mobile, so must the NB's. Now I think it's a perfectly valid tactic for one NB to spam Ambush to lock down Sypher while allowing others to do the dps and finish him. I think the only reason both were using it nearly exclusive at one points was because they were 2 random pugs and thus could not coordinate appropriately.

I also dare anyone to deny that in this situation, we would not see Crit Rush or Invasion spammed just as much if not more, since neither has an immobilize, every time he Bolted.

Generally speaking, I believe there are 2 instances where Ambush spam is good form/gameplay.

1. Locking down a particularly pesky runner, so your group/alliance mates can kill them.
2. Locking down Mistformers so your group/alliance mates can kill them.

Basically using Ambush as a utility ability rather than for dps. (think Bombard spamming)

Just my 2 cents.

You don´t understand the problem. Yay for an opinion on a topic you don´t grasp the basics of.

The issue is not the root ambush should/does apply after it landed. It´s the root silence (not effected by any immunity in the game) it does apply during its animation before it lands (like every gapcloser).

I understand what folks are saying. I wholeheartedly disagree. I have successfully casted every spell while being Crit Rushed, Ambushed and Invasioned, sometimes from all 3 at the same time and I experience the "hitch" but not the silence you speak of.

List of spells that were not effected

Rally, Vigor, Lingering ritual, Purifying Ritual- Well lets just say I have yet to see any gap closer "silence me"

At this point I believe we can all agree to disagree until there is some video proof either way.

i would like to recommend abilities that have either a casting time or a delay before their activation like BoL or streak being miraculously canceld upon being charged.

FENGRUSH

Dont even know how people here are defending anything related to gap closer abuse right now.

Ishammael

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Dont even know how people here are defending anything related to gap closer abuse right now.

Yeah I'm a little boggled by this as well.

Teargrants

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Dont even know how people here are defending anything related to gap closer abuse right now.

You get 1 guess.

pronkg

zyk wrote: »

pronkg wrote: »

The problem is not the fact they can spam ambush. The problem is when they do it your character goes into mental breakdown mode, unable to cast, unable to move, unable to turn around.

This has been debunked throughout the thread. In the video, there is no evidence ambush is preventing Sypher from casting. He casts through it whenever his character is clearly visible. The 1 second immobilize is part of the ability. Immobilization is not subject to immunity so it can be reapplied repeatedly.

I understand the general issue with the design of gap closers. I don't like how they function. However, spamming them does not result in a perma-silenced state as is being suggested. The video reinforces this. Do you not see Sypher casting through the ambush spam of at least two players throughout?

Ehhhh......

Do you not see why Sypher posted this video in the first place.

You seem to be smart, but you don't get it at all, sorry.

Comon, do you really think he posted this to show he got beat by 2 random nightblades?

themdogesbite

The fact that theres a 7 page long discussion about this issue on the forums truly shows how skewed this community can be at times.

Starshadw

Telel wrote: »

Telel feels they should point out that when fighting a sorceror built for hit and run methods then it's imperative to keep the pressure on them, and not give them a moment to think or set up for their counter attack. IF there's any lag that microsecond of delay required for fear can give a good player time to bolt once more thus dragging out the fight.

So, this one has too resorted to merely ambushing over, and over, and over again just to insure they stay on top of the flighty one. This usually buys their slower comrades time to catch up so we can all share in the nommage.

However...three to infinity guys who do naught but use one skill ad nauseum...wimps.

OTOH at least they weren't using steel tornado right? ^_^

Yep, exactly this. Ambush spam is the way I keep bolty sorcs from getting away.

And really? With only five slots per bar - skill spamming is inevitable. That's just the way it goes with how this game has set itself up.

Depending on a person's setup, if they have 1-2 slots for defense, 1-2 slots for buffing themselves, that only leaves 1-2 slots for actual damage-dealing skills per bar. With weapon swap iffy (gotta love when it lags or doesn't swap at all), chances are decent people aren't doing nearly as much swapping to gain access to an additional five skills as they might if it were more reliable.

Which leaves 5 skills and one ult to play with once a fight has started.

*shrug* Thus is ESO.

Lorkhan

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Dont even know how people here are defending anything related to gap closer abuse right now.

yeah, listen to the sorc player.
he is a celebrity, you know

frozywozy

Manoekin wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

FMonk wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

But can Sypher survive gap closers

Lol please. Haxus nightblades are notorious for abusing this ***. You guys have good enough players that you don't need to abuse things like this and fall damage on stairs, stop doing it.

With 250 days played on my sorc. I can say, whats wrong with using cheap (broken) skills to counter other cheap (broken) skills. I'm looking at you non critable shield stacking. (Or vice versa. Using non critable shield stacking to negate ambush spammers) Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over and we have things like AoE caps that empower the numbers game . Not to mention fall dmg supposed to be fixed months ago. Killing a few in large raids means nothing, with kags set ppl pop right back up and into the fight no rez sickness adding to the AoE cap. With further reduced dmg last patch I don't even call you guys pugs anymore. You're just AoE caps to me.


-Methuselah

lol.

You know that's not how it works bro.

I would not talk too much if I was you. Not that I agree with Meth's opinion but if I remember correctly, this is exactly the kind of argument Alacrity gave when we accused them of exploiting scrolls.

Tomato wrote: »

I love how people think Sypher is a great PvP player when in reality he is average compared to the best players in the game that do not stream and get attention.

Looking forward for some duels of Tomato VS Sypher.

manny254 wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

FMonk wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

But can Sypher survive gap closers

Lol please. Haxus nightblades are notorious for abusing this ***. You guys have good enough players that you don't need to abuse things like this and fall damage on stairs, stop doing it.

With 250 days played on my sorc. I can say, whats wrong with using cheap (broken) skills to counter other cheap (broken) skills. I'm looking at you non critable shield stacking. (Or vice versa. Using non critable shield stacking to negate ambush spammers) Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over and we have things like AoE caps that empower the numbers game . Not to mention fall dmg supposed to be fixed months ago. Killing a few in large raids means nothing, with kags set ppl pop right back up and into the fight no rez sickness adding to the AoE cap. With further reduced dmg last patch I don't even call you guys pugs anymore. You're just AoE caps to me.


-Methuselah

Edit: You had no problem stacking with 2 ep raids the other night in an attempt to crown your self. Sorry you have no right to complain about being outnumbered considering the amount of times I have seen you rofl stomp others you outnumber.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZXHHcIFiI

Haxus runs with less than 16 most of the time. The other raids coming along are the inevitable faith of emp crowning on the final keep. It's the same for every faction when it comes to that.

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Grampa_Smurf wrote: »

This guy actually deserves a magblade medal LOL. Do you have any idea how hard it is to land that many Concealed Weapons in a row? That is assuming of course that the target wasn't afk or didn't know how to CC break the first stun.

If you think conceal weapon spam is hard to land, try wrecking blow spam.

MrGrimey wrote: »

3 people spamming crit Rush would do the same since they can alternate the root. Yes, it's tougher to pull off than ambush spam. But the root needs to be taken away from every gap closer, not just ambush. Also, there would be no reason to spam ambush if they just took away the gap closer root

I think the mini-stun / root on the first player is fine. But without any kind of diminishing return other than CC immunity in this game, and no cooldowns we are very limited.

Best scenario would be to make you immune (to mini-stuns and roots on gap closers) for 5 seconds after you get charged once by any gap closer.

maxjapank wrote: »

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

I would like to remind everyone that he was using shield to help avoid those damage. Imagine someone who doesn't have shields?2.

Nothing wrong with shields. Use them. But uncrittable shields are poor design.

Agreed. Crits and any kind of debuff should work fully on shields.

Lucky28 wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

I would like to remind everyone that he was using shield to help avoid those damage. Imagine someone who doesn't have shields?2.

Nothing wrong with shields. Use them. But uncrittable shields are poor design.

Nah, crittable shields would be poor design. as things are now, my Hardened ward can only absorb 2 hits (from decent players) if shields where crittable i would actually 'have' to shield stack. Crittable shields are not the answer to that problem.

If you wanted crittable shields, you'd have to give shields Armor and Resistances. and if they did that no sorc would ever die in PvE ever again.

Xsorus wrote: »

What I learned from this video

A. Ambush and Lotus need a min range like every other Gap Closer

B. Sorcs are still to tanky for a glass cannon..Like virtually every other class would of died far sooner in that video from that..Except Sorc..

Not true. any class is hard to kill when they go into complete defense mode like @sypher did in this video.

So you're complaining that you would have to shield stack huh? Do you realize what a stam class has to stack to be able to survive? It gives us not more than 3-4 damaging abilities. The rest us all buffs. All a sorc needs to survive is Hardened Ward, Healing Ward and Efficient purge (optional) to get ride of purges. But with streak, it's not really required since you can escape and LoS your opponent.

Wait, you're saying that you're going to have to stack harness ? Boo ;(

I think I'm gonna cry now. Poor magicka sorc *cuddles*

zyk

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Dont even know how people here are defending anything related to gap closer abuse right now.

Uhm, no one? As far as I'm aware, not a single post in this thread defends the design of gap closers. I have stated observable facts about the video that this thread is about and shared personal experiences.

pronkg wrote: »

Ehhhh......

Do you not see why Sypher posted this video in the first place.

You seem to be smart, but you don't get it at all, sorry.

Please explain to me what I do not get. Show me which of my observations about this video are incorrect. I dispute that Sypher was unable to cast because of ambush spam as others have stated is the case. We can clearly see him casting through it for most of the video.

frozywozy

Alomar wrote: »

ZOS blows, we all know this by now. What is actually broken in this game's pvp is working as intended in their mind or was in the patch notes 6 months ago and "fixed". There will always be overpowered classes in a pvp game with an out of touch developer who view balancing as a twice a year thing, if that.

Dk's were op, sorcs, and now nightblades, yet nightblades have been on a whole different level for such a long period of time. Nightblades have been overpowered for 6-9 months, even with changes to the Battle Spirit buff intended to make TTK longer it is even easier and more common to be instantly killed or simply stand no chance against nb's. You need to look no further than the fact that so many people rerolled to nightblade in the past year to join the fotm train. I've died, like the rest of this smaller and smaller pvp community, to ambush spamming nb's, instant killing nb's, broken fear spamming nb's, etc., etc. over and over there is no news here.

Just because some streamer who likes to be semi efamous posts a video of dying once doesn't make it anything spectacularly new or shocking. Nothing is going to change, just squeeze whatever ounce of enjoyment left out of this pvp that you can before it's dead completely, and then on to the next mmo.

Yeah no kidding. Two days ago I have been hit by a magicka nightblade for 5k lotus fan, 6k conceal weapon, 14k proximity detonation in one second. All of that with serious magic/crit resistances. TTK is the same as it used to be before the battle spirit buff. It is just harder to figure out.

I'm looking forward to the change to proximity det that make it deal minor damage to one target.

Xeniph wrote: »

As for some of you saying this is bad gameplay, that's debatable. If you watch the clip, the fight starts fairly normal. Ambush into a Surprise attack. But as Sypher gets more mobile, so must the NB's. Now I think it's a perfectly valid tactic for one NB to spam Ambush to lock down Sypher while allowing others to do the dps and finish him. I think the only reason both were using it nearly exclusive at one points was because they were 2 random pugs and thus could not coordinate appropriately.

Wait, did you just called Hektik a pug? lmfao

Teargrants wrote: »

Are you high? No seriously, are you? Because for whatever reason you simply didn't read or didn't comprehend my post or really any post in this thread about the meteor issue.

The Fall Damage Shower(TM) as described is the tactic of waiting on the ledge half way up breach side stairs on the inner to rain one shot bugs on the poor sods coming in the breach. As a group. This is a tactic spearheaded in the recent months by pretty much just your guild. No other organized group on NA uses it as coordinated, precisely, consistently, or purposefully as you guys do.

I know at least another large DC guild who do it 90% of the time they defend a keep. Nothing new.

FENGRUSH

Your char gets locked up, frozen, unable to use skills when hit with gap closers. Multiple ones will compound the issue to the point you are essentially stunned and taking damage while unable to block or roll. Thats really the issue - you lose control and experience 'being disabled' despite having CC immunity.

Gap closers need to be fixed. Wrobel already acknowledged the issue in.. ironically - the AOE caps thread.

So its not really a discussion on whether or not gap closer spam is causing an issue - people are abusing the hell out of it now as well. It should be prioritized to be fixed sooner than later.

riverdragon72

pronkg

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Your char gets locked up, frozen, unable to use skills when hit with gap closers. Multiple ones will compound the issue to the point you are essentially stunned and taking damage while unable to block or roll. Thats really the issue - you lose control and experience 'being disabled' despite having CC immunity.

Gap closers need to be fixed. Wrobel already acknowledged the issue in.. ironically - the AOE caps thread.

So its not really a discussion on whether or not gap closer spam is causing an issue - people are abusing the hell out of it now as well. It should be prioritized to be fixed sooner than later.

@zyk this

riverdragon72

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Your char gets locked up, frozen, unable to use skills when hit with gap closers. Multiple ones will compound the issue to the point you are essentially stunned and taking damage while unable to block or roll. Thats really the issue - you lose control and experience 'being disabled' despite having CC immunity.

Gap closers need to be fixed. Wrobel already acknowledged the issue in.. ironically - the AOE caps thread.

So its not really a discussion on whether or not gap closer spam is causing an issue - people are abusing the hell out of it now as well. It should be prioritized to be fixed sooner than later.

Most of the time I just stand there and pick my respawn place, their little tantrum 9 out of 10 times just allows me to respawn closer or at the place I was going to anyway.

Manoekin

frozywozy wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Zavus wrote: »

FMonk wrote: »

Hektik_V wrote: »

But can Sypher survive gap closers

Lol please. Haxus nightblades are notorious for abusing this ***. You guys have good enough players that you don't need to abuse things like this and fall damage on stairs, stop doing it.

With 250 days played on my sorc. I can say, whats wrong with using cheap (broken) skills to counter other cheap (broken) skills. I'm looking at you non critable shield stacking. (Or vice versa. Using non critable shield stacking to negate ambush spammers) Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over and we have things like AoE caps that empower the numbers game . Not to mention fall dmg supposed to be fixed months ago. Killing a few in large raids means nothing, with kags set ppl pop right back up and into the fight no rez sickness adding to the AoE cap. With further reduced dmg last patch I don't even call you guys pugs anymore. You're just AoE caps to me.


-Methuselah

lol.

You know that's not how it works bro.

I would not talk too much if I was you. Not that I agree with Meth's opinion but if I remember correctly, this is exactly the kind of argument Alacrity gave when we accused them of exploiting scrolls.

I can see where you'd think it's somewhat similar. However, nothing we did 1-shot people without having to deal their full health in damage first. It didn't make the game unplayable for anyone. You may not have liked it, but it had no effect on you unless you wanted it to. Also, it was not born out of some "I can't win otherwise" situation. There was video proof of other people doing it, and ZOS told us they would do nothing about it. So, why not have a little fun? Anyway, the moral of the story is that ZOS will not punish people exploiting their game. Unless you do it on the 1.6 PTS and have a reddit post made about you. Maybe we have to make Reddit posts in order to get ZOS's attention on exploits? Because surely the thousands of other players who exploited that PTS bug didn't deserve the same, equal treatment.

frozywozy

Zheg wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

I really just want to know how Sypher's thread got hijacked and is now a VE v. Haxus thread.
This sh-- is so old and stale. Everyone chill.

Haxus was called out for ambush spam and fall damage on page 1, meth responded, asked what was wrong with using fall damage when outnumbered, and the obvious happened - as I'd say the majority of the playerbase are against oneshot exploits like that. That's how

The guild v guild drama is old and stale, agreed. The hush hush about fall damage, not so much. There's frankly no good way of discussing it without a few haxus people going defcon 5 mode on salt and defense, so it's been avoided (not just by VE, clearly there are plenty of other people who think poorly of it, as this thread is starting to demonstrate). Kirsi and I didn't get involved in the discussion because we're in VE, we got involved because we're pvpers that have to put up with that crap every night and feel like it's a cheap tactic in the same league as a certain former sorc who'd bug out mitigation on his shields (though maybe kirsi wouldn't go that far). Part of the reason it's snowballed so quickly is because this has been given the Fight Club treatment where you aren't supposed to talk about it, yet everyone and their mother knows about it. It doesn't help the matter when haxus members try to obfuscate and deny it, especially when it's only a few posts down from meth's. I have tons of respect for haxus, and like a super majority of its members from the few interactions I've had with them. I think intentionally trying to exploit fall damage is ridonkulous, cheap, and beneath good players, but that doesn't mean you need to share my opinion. It also doesn't mean myself and the rest of the playerbase that puts up with the fall damage shenanigans on a nightly basis need to just take it and never say boo against the people intentionally doing it, nor do we have to buy the BS argument that it's some kind of necessary tactic. I've never once had to worry about rage sitting on stairs to meteor us when we outnumber them. Their group fights and either wins or loses, same with every other yellow guild, and all of the other red ones, same with us and the blue guilds I know about. There are a few pugs aware of how to do it, but there's only one organized group that does it. If you don't like the reputation, well, frankly it's on you guys at that point.

So, I agree, there really shouldn't be guild v guild drama, we've done that in enough threads. This isn't a VE vs. haxus thing, this is a players from all walks being tired of cheap oneshot tactics. Even if VE were completely removed from the convo, there are still other people in here calling you guys out on it. Either own it, or stop doing it, it really doesn't need to be a bigger deal than that. I mean, for perspective, trying to defend your use of blatant exploits like meteor's fall damage, and then denying that you do it, how did you honestly think that would end up?

In pretty much every thread that brian has popped into I've tried to bring attention to the fall damage BS, and done so without directly calling out haxus (though it's pretty obvious to everyone). Until ZOS fixes it, or removes fall damage completely (again), or you guys stop abusing it, frankly I'm not sure what you expect from the people you kill with it, is the reaction supposed to be "well played guys!"? Back in 1.5/1.6 when people would spam meteors during fights and no skills would go off for 5+ minutes, we had a policy where if you were caught doing that, it was a gkick. I remember you would start cursing in TS and ranting as soon as the first meteor could be heard in those fights. I know not everyone in haxus does it, but frankly, given what I know about a few of you, I'm surprised there hasn't been more of an internal 'why the eff are we doing this'. You guys constantly trumpet running smaller groups, but then in the same breath put out an excuse like "well, we're outnumbered, so we need to abuse fall damage for oneshots". At that point, what can the rest of us do besides go wut?

You know nothing Zheg Snow.

Alomar

Teargrants wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

All well and good, but I believe what I see and his is what I see. We don't always outnumber you. There are plenty of fights, keep takes even where you guys have as many in raid as we do, sometimes even a friendly red raid in the inner with you. It doesn't matter, you do the same thing every time.

Alomar wrote: »

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything.

Ehhhhhhhhh, except our tactics don't consist of exploiting known bugs. So can I please have the exact number at which exploiting meteor fall damage bug en masse goes from 'good' to 'bad'? I ask because it isn't just some meteors dropping here and there, it's 5+ meteors popping at once with your group always being in the same spot on the ledge halfway up the breach side stairs. You guys don't do giant meteor showers outside of stairs that can proc the fall dmg bug, in open field you guys mainly go bats. If meteor is just because it's a good ult and fall damage has nothing to do with it, then why this duality?

Change our tactics and spread out? Are you secretly Frozn posting on Beast's acct? How pray tell does a raid spread out as it goes through the inner breach? Snake out and go in a couple at a time so that heals, barriers, purges don't work optimally? About your comparison to zergs and lag, balling up and pain training is how you kill them and stop the lag. You lead a raid, you do the same thing when you have the people - as does every other organized guild in the game. Pretending like it's irresponsible or something is just facetious.

Nor is his whole meteor discussion with you just a VE thing, I'm not here talking to you as the voice of VE or anything like that, I'm sure Mano and Mojican have plenty of their own to say on the matter.

Ahem...

Zavus wrote: »

Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over
-Methuselah

Alomar wrote: »

Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

Two points, we usually had 20+ ppl in our nightly havoc raids, Annon and rhm used to get pretty pissed when we had less than that, I know cuz I ran with them. At least up until our reroll to blue. I'm not calling havoc out on anything. Second, lag wasn't as bad? I beg to differ, it was 'different' for sure, but just as bad as far as I'm concerned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TdBGbojeFo

While you take what Meth said to heart, I see it as a joke to stir the pot with you. There are multiple factual inaccuracies in your post mate. We have and do use meteors outside of keeps and away from choke points all the time. Yet, we're not stupid we use it when we have the element of surprise on a large stack standing still or relatively still, otherwise other ultimates fit situations better. Like I said we use the ultimate for it's benefits if there was no fall damage bug we'd continue to use it when we are unable to push directly into a group for reasons such as it's size and lag. There is no direct intention to kill people from fall damage on my end, yet keep believing whatever excuses you need to when you die.

Another false statement is that we stack on the same stairs and use meteors on stairs every keep defense. Once again incorrect, that would be dumb due to predictability, we pride ourselves in defending each keep different then the one before therefore predictability is not one of our weaknesses. You either don't play against us enough, are listening to lies, or simply drinking the kool-aid my friend. Don't feel bad, we'll just put ya in the boat with the other tinfoil hat wearers who shouted about lagsploiting for 6 months.

Attempting to say meteor causes lag this patch is dumb and that Havoc used meteors during the period where they did cause lag is false. Neither are true, and you know this as you also know Havoc never ever had an average of 20 man sized groups, not even in it's peek. You also know Havoc never had a use for coordinated meteors and therefore never used them, also because during 1.5/1.6 lag it was known to cause lag.

Regarding the 1.6 lag VE 30 mans caused I never said anything about entering a keep breach mate. You found one time where people always stack up and forget about the rest? As we both know large groups spamming aoes running together caused severe lag in 1.6, just like I said. VE knew this and won because of this not in keep breaches, but EVERYWHERE including open fields.

zyk

pronkg wrote: »

@zyk this

If you don't want to address my points directly, fine. I'm happy to agree to disagree. But don't call me out about them if you can't be bothered to use the video to specifically demonstrate your point.

Gap closers function in an awkward way. They are designed that way. Specifically, they can immobilize a target while the animation completes and can also induce a brief 'silence', impacting the ability of the target to react. No one is disputing this.

This issue is most noticeable at range, as the animation takes longer to complete' and for 'ground based' gap closers that must negotiate a path to the target. In my experience, it is only significantly impairing when cast by multiple players asynchronously on the same target.

The vast majority of time when a gap closer is cast on me, there is no practical issue.

It may be a bad design, but it is intended and therefore not an exploit in any way. I find irony in the fact one of people most outraged about this has been shown to exploit unintended mechanics and bugs in the past.

If you are dying every time a single player spams a gap closer on you, there is something else wrong. Especially if it is ambush because its animation completes quickly with fewer pathing constraints.

Again, in the video, we can see very clearly that Sypher is able to streak, cast damage shields and roll dodge without apparent issue while multiple players spam ambush on him. If you see otherwise, tell me where. He is immobilized because he's supposed to be: http://www.esohead.com/skills/25484-ambush

I don't like the design of gap closers. I don't think anyone does. I hope it is changed. However, the issue isn't nearly as bad as described by some in this thread. Spamming ambush is certainly not a clear path to success.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

zyk wrote: »

pronkg wrote: »

@zyk this

I don't like the design of gap closers. I don't think anyone does. I hope it is changed. However, the issue isn't nearly as bad as described by some in this thread. Spamming ambush is certainly not a clear path to success.

It may not be a path to success but it does hard counter streak. Streak was nerfed so many times because people on the forums (especially nighblades) claimed it was too powerful and that no class should have a guaranteed way to disengage combat. This is especially hilarious now that cloak is a better escape than streak. Apologistblades will quickly list all the counters to cloak, and there are some hard counters. But the point is that there are (and were) hard counters to streak too. Streak is easily hard countered by any gap closer but particularly ambush.

So now that all the Nightbads have learned to play, (aka learned to spam) and know how to stay on a streaking sorc, we can remove all the cost penalties on streak and make sorcs fun to play again.

Ezareth

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

pronkg wrote: »

@zyk this

I don't like the design of gap closers. I don't think anyone does. I hope it is changed. However, the issue isn't nearly as bad as described by some in this thread. Spamming ambush is certainly not a clear path to success.

It may not be a path to success but it does hard counter streak. Streak was nerfed so many times because people on the forums (especially nighblades) claimed it was too powerful and that no class should have a guaranteed way to disengage combat. This is especially hilarious now that cloak is a better escape than streak. Apologistblades will quickly list all the counters to cloak, and there are some hard counters. But the point is that there are (and were) hard counters to streak too. Streak is easily hard countered by any gap closer but particularly ambush.

So now that all the Nightbads have learned to play, (aka learned to spam) and know how to stay on a streaking sorc, we can remove all the cost penalties on streak and make sorcs fun to play again.

There isn't a stamina player in the game who should have any problem at all following a bolt escaping sorc. Simply point your character at the sorc and *SPRINT*. Self buffs with Major Expedition are bonus (Double-Take, Boundless Storm, Manuevers etc.). He will run out of magicka far quicker than you run out of stamina no matter what build they're using.

My sorc couldn't outrun my aged grandmother in a wheelchair right now.

No abilities in this game need to exist to counter bolt escape...they nerfed it to the point that it is now only a short range repositioning ability, not a form of mobility.

Takllin

Ezareth wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

pronkg wrote: »

@zyk this

I don't like the design of gap closers. I don't think anyone does. I hope it is changed. However, the issue isn't nearly as bad as described by some in this thread. Spamming ambush is certainly not a clear path to success.

It may not be a path to success but it does hard counter streak. Streak was nerfed so many times because people on the forums (especially nighblades) claimed it was too powerful and that no class should have a guaranteed way to disengage combat. This is especially hilarious now that cloak is a better escape than streak. Apologistblades will quickly list all the counters to cloak, and there are some hard counters. But the point is that there are (and were) hard counters to streak too. Streak is easily hard countered by any gap closer but particularly ambush.

So now that all the Nightbads have learned to play, (aka learned to spam) and know how to stay on a streaking sorc, we can remove all the cost penalties on streak and make sorcs fun to play again.

There isn't a stamina player in the game who should have any problem at all following a bolt escaping sorc. Simply point your character at the sorc and *SPRINT*. Self buffs with Major Expedition are bonus (Double-Take, Boundless Storm, Manuevers etc.). He will run out of magicka far quicker than you run out of stamina no matter what build they're using.

My sorc couldn't outrun my aged grandmother in a wheelchair right now.

No abilities in this game need to exist to counter bolt escape...they nerfed it to the point that it is now only a short range repositioning ability, not a form of mobility.

Couldn't be more on point about streak in the current game.

BuggeX

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

So now that all the Nightbads have learned to play, (aka learned to spam) and know how to stay on a streaking sorc, we can remove all the cost penalties on streak and make sorcs fun to play again.

as loong Dk doesnt have a class gap closer or atleast a public magicka gap closer let the streak cost as they are.......

Takes-No-Prisoner

Telel wrote: »

Telel feels they should point out that when fighting a sorceror built for hit and run methods then it's imperative to keep the pressure on them, and not give them a moment to think or set up for their counter attack. IF there's any lag that microsecond of delay required for fear can give a good player time to bolt once more thus dragging out the fight.

So, this one has too resorted to merely ambushing over, and over, and over again just to insure they stay on top of the flighty one. This usually buys their slower comrades time to catch up so we can all share in the nommage.

However...three to infinity guys who do naught but use one skill ad nauseum...wimps.

OTOH at least they weren't using steel tornado right? ^_^

Sagely words of advice, as usual boss.

I have died to this too OP.

Teargrants

Alomar wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

You can believe whatever you want Kirsi, but unless it comes out of my, Zavus's, or Hek's mouth it isn't a policy. Your groups consistently outnumber us by 2-3x our numbers, especially 1-2 months ago. With 8-10 people spamming the most op aoe this game has seen, steel tornado, with another 16 people proxing at the same time, and with a rotation of barriers. Everything is in your favor, more healers, more ultimates, more damage, better ability to deal with lag due to numbers being the key advantage in lag, and you take a fraction of the damage we take due to this game's brokenly *** aoe cap. Therefore, we needed a new approach to deal with such a group.

All well and good, but I believe what I see and his is what I see. We don't always outnumber you. There are plenty of fights, keep takes even where you guys have as many in raid as we do, sometimes even a friendly red raid in the inner with you. It doesn't matter, you do the same thing every time.

Alomar wrote: »

We brainstormed and decided we needed a ranged ult that wasn't class based and could be used in coordination. Meteors provide the burst, cc, and a dot that make them extremely valuable at range when a significant number of them are used. Fall damage is just another example of ZOS's incapability to fix their pvp, which I don't believe will ever happen at this point. The irony that anything is being said by VE members is funny. In 1.6 where lag was horrendous, aoe balling up by large groups would cause more lag than unorganized zergs. Yet, did VE ever change their tactics and spread out? No, they would show up and be unkillable while everyone else around them couldn't use any skills. I'm not blaming VE for the lag, that's obviously on ZOS, yet your tactics in that situation enhanced the problem and leave you with no room to call anyone out on anything.

Ehhhhhhhhh, except our tactics don't consist of exploiting known bugs. So can I please have the exact number at which exploiting meteor fall damage bug en masse goes from 'good' to 'bad'? I ask because it isn't just some meteors dropping here and there, it's 5+ meteors popping at once with your group always being in the same spot on the ledge halfway up the breach side stairs. You guys don't do giant meteor showers outside of stairs that can proc the fall dmg bug, in open field you guys mainly go bats. If meteor is just because it's a good ult and fall damage has nothing to do with it, then why this duality?

Change our tactics and spread out? Are you secretly Frozn posting on Beast's acct? How pray tell does a raid spread out as it goes through the inner breach? Snake out and go in a couple at a time so that heals, barriers, purges don't work optimally? About your comparison to zergs and lag, balling up and pain training is how you kill them and stop the lag. You lead a raid, you do the same thing when you have the people - as does every other organized guild in the game. Pretending like it's irresponsible or something is just facetious.

Nor is his whole meteor discussion with you just a VE thing, I'm not here talking to you as the voice of VE or anything like that, I'm sure Mano and Mojican have plenty of their own to say on the matter.

Ahem...

Zavus wrote: »

Whats wrong with using Meteor on stairs to get fall dmg kills when your outnumbered 4x over
-Methuselah

Alomar wrote: »

Before you call Havoc out on the same thing, when they ran groups of similar tactics it was with 8-12 people less on average and during a time where lag wasn't as bad.

Two points, we usually had 20+ ppl in our nightly havoc raids, Annon and rhm used to get pretty pissed when we had less than that, I know cuz I ran with them. At least up until our reroll to blue. I'm not calling havoc out on anything. Second, lag wasn't as bad? I beg to differ, it was 'different' for sure, but just as bad as far as I'm concerned.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TdBGbojeFo

While you take what Meth said to heart, I see it as a joke to stir the pot with you.

That's nice, I'll just start saying anything inconvenient to my argument was a joke. Thanks for the tip. The point is it would be one thing if those kind of comments were just unsubstantiated words on a forum, but they aren't. It's an observed tactic specific to your guild that every guild that fights you can attest to.

Alomar wrote: »

There are multiple factual inaccuracies in your post mate. We have and do use meteors outside of keeps and away from choke points all the time. Yet, we're not stupid we use it when we have the element of surprise on a large stack standing still or relatively still, otherwise other ultimates fit situations better. Like I said we use the ultimate for it's benefits if there was no fall damage bug we'd continue to use it when we are unable to push directly into a group for reasons such as it's size and lag. There is no direct intention to kill people from fall damage on my end, yet keep believing whatever excuses you need to when you die.

No direct intent to kill people from fall damage? It just so happens that every single fight on stairs or a steep slope involves a meteor shower bomb instead of a bats bomb or any other kind of bomb? And before you do, please don't give me the 'it's still the best ult not factoring in fall damage' line. Meteor gives a glowing circle at your feet telling you to block, can be reflected, can be 'cleansed' by Purify, it costs about twice as much as Dawnbreaker for about the same initial burst dmg, the snare is removed instantly by Rapid spam, the dot is removed by Negates, and to top it all off it's not conducive to precise placing because there's no controlling where the target runs after you cast it on them. In contrast, Negate/Nova/Leap ect bombs are very effective in a tight place like stairs. By no means am I trying to tell you how to run your group, but don't expect me to believe that you have no intention of killing people with fall damage.

Alomar wrote: »

Attempting to say meteor causes lag this patch is dumb and that Havoc used meteors during the period where they did cause lag is false. Neither are true, and you know this

Huh? Show me where I said either of those things, because I didn't. I never said anything about meteor causing lag. I never said anything about Havoc using Meteor. The only guild I have been addressing is 'your guild', the guild you lead, Haxus.

Alomar wrote: »

as you also know Havoc never ever had an average of 20 man sized groups, not even in it's peek.

That's a bald faced lie, Beast. You know it, I know it, as do many of us in VE who were a part of Havoc pretty much since its inception and ran with them on a daily basis. Daytime raids were usually about 12-15 but Havoc absolutely did have upwards of 20~ in raid during primetime. Why are we debating this one way or the other? Why does the size of Havoc, a guild that no longer exists in this game, matter?

Alomar wrote: »

You also know Havoc never had a use for coordinated meteors and therefore never used them, also because during 1.5/1.6 lag it was known to cause lag.

Again, I haven't said a single thing about Havoc and Meteors, perhaps other people have but you're replying to the wrong person.

Alomar wrote: »

Regarding the 1.6 lag VE 30 mans caused I never said anything about entering a keep breach mate. You found one time where people always stack up and forget about the rest? As we both know large groups spamming aoes running together caused severe lag in 1.6, just like I said. VE knew this and won because of this not in keep breaches, but EVERYWHERE including open fields.

I would point out that max group size keeps us at 24 ppl. As for inner breaches, that comes up because that is where the Meteor fall damage shower happens 90% of the time. If you haven't noticed, Meteor fall damage is what people are calling you out on. Why do you keep talking about lag though?

krim

frozywozy wrote: »

I would not talk too much if I was you. Not that I agree with Meth's opinion but if I remember correctly, this is exactly the kind of argument Alacrity gave when we accused them of exploiting scrolls.

Not even close to the same thing but ok. You should have went with the orbs bug in the undaunted tree. Why are you so bent over about the scroll lol. We used scrolls as a tool to make everyone come to us.

frozywozy

krim wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I would not talk too much if I was you. Not that I agree with Meth's opinion but if I remember correctly, this is exactly the kind of argument Alacrity gave when we accused them of exploiting scrolls.

Not even close to the same thing but ok. You should have went with the orbs bug in the undaunted tree. Why are you so bent over about the scroll lol. We used scrolls as a tool to make everyone come to us.

Because back there, Alacrity claimed that they were doing it to convince Zenimax to fix it.

Which was total crap and we all know it by now.

riverdragon72

I love how a semi pretty much legitimate thread gets turned into an e peen nerd contest,

Valen_Byte

Not one point has been made in 7 pages of comments that is worthy of an actual discussion.

What is the point of this thread? And what is so 'Lol' about that video?

krim

frozywozy wrote: »

krim wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

I would not talk too much if I was you. Not that I agree with Meth's opinion but if I remember correctly, this is exactly the kind of argument Alacrity gave when we accused them of exploiting scrolls.

Not even close to the same thing but ok. You should have went with the orbs bug in the undaunted tree. Why are you so bent over about the scroll lol. We used scrolls as a tool to make everyone come to us.

Because back there, Alacrity claimed that they were doing it to convince Zenimax to fix it.

Which was total crap and we all know it by now.

Gotta play the politics game. Alacrity the big bad AP farming guild.