lol

PainfulFAFA

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

Good stuff Wrobel!
Now about thise AoE Caps.....

Curragraigue

Lucky28 wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

Why do all charge abilities need a fix if this is just a NB charge problem? Don't all the other charges provide an immunity with a break free from a charge? If you change all the charges can Temps have the skill cooldown with Toppling Charge removed then?

All charges silence and immobilize you, it's not NB specific.
You can't get immunity against it and with limited dodge rolling it's kinda hard to do anything while being spammed with charges.

Invasion used to provide an immunity to knock down if you broke free from it in 1.5. If it doesn't now there has been a change somewhere. The other abilities (other than Toppling Charge which has s cooldown and DK Leap which has regeneration) have a minimum distance requiring a player to pull back before using it again. NB skill is the only spammable skill in that it can be used over and over by one person, that is gimmicky.

It's not the knockdown. when someone uses a gap closer on you, you're frozen in place and silenced until the attack connects. and from this effect you cannot break free and you cannot dodge roll or use any abilities and there is no immunity. on top of that; there are people who communicate with one another to rotate their gap closers making you permanently frozen/silenced so you just get killed without being able to fight back at all.

Have a watch of the video in the first post. The guy is standing right next to Sypher and each ambush results in a knock down no gap closing silence he is right on top of him. That was the reason for the thread and the reason for my query to Wrobel and the changes he was talking about. I don't see anywhere in his post that they are fixing the issue you have raised.

Starshadw

Curragraigue wrote: »

Why do all charge abilities need a fix if this is just a NB charge problem? Don't all the other charges provide an immunity with a break free from a charge? If you change all the charges can Temps have the skill cooldown with Toppling Charge removed then?

This is me laughing hysterically. As has been known for some time - neither the cc immunity nor the break-free mechanics are working properly, resulting in 1) players getting completely stunlocked and unable to do ANYthing and 2) pounding on the break-free key while having plenty of Stamina, yet still being stuck in place.

And sadly, I don't see the fix mentioned above solving either of these two problems.

Ezareth

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

@Wrobel

Good to hear you guys are looking at the issue.

When you say "Immobile" are you saying that currently gap closers only have a Root" in place? Or are you talking about the associated mini-stun. In my experience when I get several players spamming crit charge on me as I'm dodge rolling or bolt escaping away, I frequently lose the ability to even use abilities at all (other than dodge roll). Will this change to a snare fix particular issue?

Also on the subject of locking out abilities: What can I do best to help you guys identify and solve the broken left click bug that has crippled PvP for me?(Are you even aware of its existence?) Constantly losing the abilitiy to dodge and break free or use the game interface is one of the worst combat bugs I've experienced since the dreaded FPS bug.

Xsorus

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

lol

So I made a pretty good guess like 3 posts up about the snare huh

skillastat

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

Why change a problem by adding another problem ? Snare will not fix this.

Nifty2g

Wrobel wrote: »

you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

I hope whoever gets on TG PTS gets this removed, it's already Elder Snares this will probably be even damn worse when/if a purge/purify cooldown is introduced.

Fixing one problem by adding an almost more annoying problem is not the way to go ZOS team @Worbel

By strong snare I assume you are making it the same as the stranglers on round 3, 80% move speed reduction a better idea would be to put a cooldown on immobilize

I'm sorry but have you guys even thought about this? It makes gap closing spam even worse, a purify cooldown while spamming a gap closer on you with a strong snare is quite possibly even worse than it already is, that offers probably 0 survival.

I personally don't get where you came to conclusion that players will be given the opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge abilities on you with a strong snare which will quite possibly stack with each other. Please just add a cooldown to the immobilize and call it at that, that's the only fix you need to do.

eliisra

Nifty2g wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

I hope whoever gets on TG PTS gets this removed, it's already Elder Snares this will probably be even damn worse when/if a purge/purify cooldown is introduced.

I'm guessing that auto snare cant be purged. Just as how you cant cc break or purge or anything v.s. today's immobilize from gap closers being spammed. Because not technically a cc or status effects, just annoying design to make sure a skill connects.

Elder Snares sounds like a really *** place to be. I dont want to be perma snared. Hope they can make it work using some other tweak. Anything that encourages spamming gap closers for some secondary/third unintended effect, is going to be bad

Nifty2g

eliisra wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

I hope whoever gets on TG PTS gets this removed, it's already Elder Snares this will probably be even damn worse when/if a purge/purify cooldown is introduced.

I'm guessing that auto snare cant be purged. Just as how you cant cc break or purge or anything v.s. today's immobilize from gap closers being spammed. Because not technically a cc or status effects, just annoying design to make sure a skill connects.

Elder Snares sounds like a really *** place to be. I dont want to be perma snared. Hope they can make it work using some other tweak. Anything that encourages spamming gap closers for some secondary/third unintended effect, is going to be bad

There is going to need to be a huge amount of voice to get this snare removed seeing as @Wrobel already confirmed it's coming. I can say right now it's an absurd decision and don't know what they were thinking honestly

MormondPayne_EP

@Wrobel

Thieves guild update!?!

You guys have to start fixing bugs routinely every week... you know, like what the scheduled server maintenance downtime is for. Fixing bugs that make the unplayable should not be a minor issue that is fixed with DLC updates. I have no idea where you guys get this mentality from?

I am so frustrated with the state of the game now that I log into PvP and barely last 30 minutes before I am overcome with frustration and rage that I quit... pretty soon I won't bother logging in anymore... There is no damn way I will be waiting 3 months for a fix to a FUNDAMENTAL combat mechanics issue. The whole game is BASED AROUND combat mechanics.

I am shaking my head furiously right now and I am struggling to hold in the tirade of abuse I want to spill. I have had so much trouble with ZOS as a whole not just PvP. I tried to change my email address over the last 2 months and it took my submitting 9 tickets before I even got a response... 9 tickets... What is going on over there? Seriously?!!?

This is really bad and you guys should really be ashamed.

Zheg

MormondPayne_EP wrote: »

@Wrobel

Thieves guild update!?!

You guys have to start fixing bugs routinely every week... you know, like what the scheduled server maintenance downtime is for. Fixing bugs that make the unplayable should not be a minor issue that is fixed with DLC updates. I have no idea where you guys get this mentality from?

I am so frustrated with the state of the game now that I log into PvP and barely last 30 minutes before I am overcome with frustration and rage that I quit... pretty soon I won't bother logging in anymore... There is no damn way I will be waiting 3 months for a fix to a FUNDAMENTAL combat mechanics issue. The whole game is BASED AROUND combat mechanics.

I am shaking my head furiously right now and I am struggling to hold in the tirade of abuse I want to spill. I have had so much trouble with ZOS as a whole not just PvP. I tried to change my email address over the last 2 months and it took my submitting 9 tickets before I even got a response... 9 tickets... What is going on over there? Seriously?!!?

This is really bad and you guys should really be ashamed.

They really didn't like pushing out multiple patches before and always preferred one giant one because it was less work to create the build or something, but now that console is out - they can't push constant incremental patches out.

There's no changing ZOS, you just gotta take what you get. The only bright side has been brians increased responsiveness on forums.

GreenSoup2HoT

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

So now we will have a problem with people using immovable potion's or the medium Armour skill shuffle and un-able to hit them with gap closer's?

That's better then mini stun's i guess. We will see once it hit's pts.


What about skill's like Ambush? This skill specifically has a 1 second immovable duration after cast? Is this being removed? Will Ambush still be a problem?

MrGrimey

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

More snares is the last thing PVP needs... Snares only help Zergs hunt down solo players and small groups. If you want this game to feel more responsive, than get rid of the lag and 200+ ping.

MrGrimey

If it's anything like the AOE cap discussion, don't expect this new snare to get balanced or removed no matter how many people want it removed. When @wrobel gets an idea and adds it in the game, there's no turning back.

JaJaLuka

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

Would this "strong snare" be the same type as those that can be removed by abilities like Rapid Maneuver? What happens if you try use a gap-closer on someone with snare immunity? Does the attack miss?

A better question is why they should always hit. Other things have chances to miss and can be negated by certain skills.

MrGrimey

JaJaLuka wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

Would this "strong snare" be the same type as those that can be removed by abilities like Rapid Maneuver? What happens if you try use a gap-closer on someone with snare immunity? Does the attack miss?

A better question is why they should always hit. Other things have chances to miss and can be negated by certain skills.

Agreed, gap closers are just that, GAP CLOSERS. They shouldn't guarantee a hit regardless of circumstances. Remove to root, don't add the snare and gap closers will still do what they were designed to do and get the player into the fight so he can use non gap closer abilities, not just spam the same ability

danno8

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

Is there really no way for the gap-closer to simply follow the target after it has successfully been initiated?

RinaldoGandolphi

So the fix is a snare that last longer then 05. secs? this is the fix? tell me your kidding.

SMH...The gap closer "Should target the tartgeted players map coordinates when the charge is initiated" if the player moves out of range then the player simply charges to the spot, if the player don't move, the gap closer damages anything in a 5m radius where the charge ends.

This hoenstly isn't hard...snaring, rooting, stunning, etc on gpa closers is nonsense.

Making it a snare instead of a stun will maker avoiding it harder and even worse then it is now...furthermore once your engaged folks can just gap closer spam to keep you perma snared instead of perma stunned its the same garbage just a different way of doing it.

Gap closers shouldn't guarantee a hit, but they should guarantee charging to a coordinates on the map regardless if the player originally targeted is still there, and giving it a small AOE radius still makes it useful without turning this into the Elder Roots, or the Elder Snares online....

Cathexis

What *** man >< when that kind of sht happens to me now I remember their names and plot revenge.

Alucardo

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

A strong snare for longer than .5 seconds? I don't know.. that sounds just as annoying or even more so than what we're getting now. Snares are too commonplace these days, and so are Nightblades. I have the feeling I'm going to be moving at turtle speed if this change goes through.

Xsorus

I feel like some people are just whining for the sake of whining at this point.

Right now you get stunned for basically a bit where you can't move or do anything when being hit by Gap Closers.

Going to a snare is a 1000x better then this... and yet..you still have people whining..Which pretty much means they don't want there to be anything at all on the Gap Closer..Which was tried..and simply did not work well at all.

So its a Snare basically....which is better then the current option.

This is a separate issue of course compared to Ambush..which flat out needs a Min range attached to it.

Jhunn

@Xsorus It might be better, but that doesn't mean it's good. With the amont of SPAMBUSH builds out there I'll be walking around in slowmo constantly in every fight. Doesn't sound good to be honest

Tower_Of_Shame

Tbh until they don't give minimum distance to ambush you can still spam it and the suggested changes you wont be silenced or immobilize but you will be snared for 100% of the time... GG

All gap closer has a minimum distance GIVE IT TO ambush as well problem solved...

Lucky28

JaJaLuka wrote: »

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

Would this "strong snare" be the same type as those that can be removed by abilities like Rapid Maneuver? What happens if you try use a gap-closer on someone with snare immunity? Does the attack miss?

A better question is why they should always hit. Other things have chances to miss and can be negated by certain skills.

This is true. i would like my c-frags to always hit, but we don't always get what we want.

Legedric

Xsorus wrote: »

I feel like some people are just whining for the sake of whining at this point.

Right now you get stunned for basically a bit where you can't move or do anything when being hit by Gap Closers.

Going to a snare is a 1000x better then this... and yet..you still have people whining..Which pretty much means they don't want there to be anything at all on the Gap Closer..Which was tried..and simply did not work well at all.

So its a Snare basically....which is better then the current option.

This is a separate issue of course compared to Ambush..which flat out needs a Min range attached to it.

Maybe it is better but other games manage gap closer without this ZOS-like-necessary root/snare, too. So in my eyes it is just ZOS being not able again to solve a problem to 100%... and no I am not destructive here as I will provide some constructive ideas below.

ESO's gap closer are already inconsistent as there are those that stun you to get the pathing right like Ambush, Crit Charge, Invasion etc. and those that do not and you land at the spot where the player was when you initiated the gap closer like dragon leap (which doesn't feel responsive as a gap closer at all) for example.

The huge problem with Ambush also isn't the stun itself but the fact that it's spammable without any minimum distance. That makes it so annoying over any other gap closer as you can lock someone in place with 3 NB spamming Ambush without having to move away from you to get some distance again.

So a good fix to reduce the problem would be a combination of making the stun a snare AND giving Ambush a minimum distance. Still not great but something...

A proper 100% fix would be to adjust the pathing of a gap closer to make you land on the new spot of your target (when it moved) when you land fluently. Yes, the system would have to check multiple times for target movement but it should do that anyway as it already updates the visual location of your target, too, so why not for the "hit" of the gap closer?

PS: When Wrobel is talking about a snare that will last longer than the stun today I assume it will be 1-2 seconds. But will it be a snare I can avoid by using Maneuvers or Shuffle? Or will it (like the stun before) be something like a super snare that cannot be avoided/purged? Because the later is what I would expect from Wrobel and his team as that's how I imagine would ZOS do it... Of course the first would be the obviously better solution.

Stikato

Soooo, basically we are all going to be perma-snared, gap closing each other.

That sounds pretty....fruity.

zyk

Legedric wrote: »

The huge problem with Ambush also isn't the stun itself but the fact that it's spammable without any minimum distance. That makes it so annoying over any other gap closer as you can lock someone in place with 3 NB spamming Ambush without having to move away from you to get some distance again.

Don't forget that that a 1 second immobilize is part of the design of Ambush -- outside of characteristics it shares with other gap closers that are being discussed in this thread. One player spamming it should be able to lock you in place. Like any other immobilization ability: bombard, talons, etc..

I don't think Mr. @Wrobel has explained the process well. In my experience, the 'hitching/silence/mini-stun/immobilize/whatever' being discussed here depends on how long the animation of the gap closer takes to execute. Perhaps he can clarify whether this is a factor. Hopefully, Mr. @Wrobel can also clarify the nature of the apparent inability to cast abilities that can sometimes occur when being gap closed.

I know I am able to cast through players spamming ambush on me. I know others can cast through me spamming Ambush on them. Back when I played a Stamina build in 1.6, I think I once Ambushed a shielding, streaking teargrants for about 2 minutes straight. In the video posted to start this thread, one can clearly see Sypher casting through Ambush spam from multiple players at short range.

In the first three clips of this video, I am casting (but not spamming) Lotus Fan on opponents without any apparent interruption to their actions--even in slow motion, they do not miss a step: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Em08qeLrSGQ

Xsorus

Jhunn wrote: »

@Xsorus It might be better, but that doesn't mean it's good. With the amont of SPAMBUSH builds out there I'll be walking around in slowmo constantly in every fight. Doesn't sound good to be honest

That's not really related to the snare..That's related to the fact that Ambush needs a min distance.

Septimus_Magna

Wrobel wrote: »

It's not our intention that players get locked in placed when being spammed with charge style abilities, but we also want these abilities to feel responsive and be able to hit their target. We're currently testing a fix where instead of being immobile for .5 seconds you will instead have a strong snare applied for slightly longer.

This fix should ensure that you have time to hit targets with charge abilities, but also gives the defender some opportunity to disengage when 1 or multiple players are using charge attacks against them. This fix will go live with the Thieves Guild update. We'd love to hear feedback both from players using charge abilities and being charged on the PTS.

If I understand correctly you will replace the mini-stun with a strong snare to keep distance close between the attacker and defender.

Will players be able to remove this snare with Retreating Maneuvers, Shuffle and Forward Momentum?

Wouldnt it be better to give the person using the gap closer a short speed buff while maintaining his momentum?
This would remove the lock-in-place mechanism while keeping the distance close between the attacker and the defender.

I look forward to test the changes when they come to the pts!

Etaniel

@Wrobel I seriously hope you are joking about this snare.

Rooting/silenced/snared? It's all the same : a spammable cc ability that you can't break free from / purge / dodge.

There is nothing more annoying than losing control over your character, or having non responsive skills/abilities. That's why you have CC immunity in this game, and skills that immunize you from soft cc like rooting/snaring.

The only acceptable fix for this would be to have the charge animation be dynamic and adjust while travelling. Yeah, it's not a lazy fix and it's probably hard to pull off technically.

But that's it, either you start working on this fix so that we have skills that work in a logical manner, or you tell us up front that you are not capable of such a fix, and act accordingly : change all charges so they act like a regular stun say 1.5 seconds and allow for cc breaking, while only providing a gap close on immune targets.

And if you intend to keep a cc on charges, you've got to nerf them somehow. A gap closer's goal should be to gap close, not to deal ridiculous damage (looking at you crit rush). gap close + unavoidable CC + good damage is incredibly strong.