Heavy armor needs buffed already.

DuckNoodles

Totally agree. Heavy armor needs a major buff!

Forestd16b14_ESO

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Also forgot to add something about HA skill Immovable.

I feel it needs to benefit HA again. Like pre 1.6. Reduce it's cost to 2000 at most and increase it's duration to 20 seconds and as for it's morphs Immovable brute be change back to increases weapon damage by 20% (if I remember that was it's power before) while unstoppable has increases duration to 30s and reduce cost to 1500 stamina.

Also of course the CC and negative effects immunity be brung back to it's original time of lasting the entire duration of the skill it self how ever do what ZOS should have done to being with and make it so you need atleast 5+ pieces of armor to use the skill.

As a tank I also believe that some buffing is needed for tanks. Immovable including.
you say:
"so you need at least 5+ pieces of armor to use the skill"

Here I a sorry to say that I disagree:
I believe that the freedom of choice should be wide open including using the active abilities of other Armor than your own main type of Armor.
I believe that the benefit of HA with Immovable should come from the synergy of the Morph, giving a higher benefit per piece.
This is also the case with the Morphs of the active abilities of LA and MA.

Thing is you need a bow to use bow skills like snipe and a 2H weapon to use wrecking blow and rally and you need to be a Night Blade to use fear or cloak. So why don't you think you don't even need to wear 1 piece of the correct armor or even armor at all to use a armor skill ? Whole reason it got nerfed to begin with was cause it was a crutch in pvp and if you didn't have it you just CC to death and it only became a crutch because any one could use it when the got there HA to what level 20 that's all they had to do they don't have to wear even a single piece of HA to use it.

jakeedmundson

eliisra wrote: »

Kinda pointless. It's pretty clear that ZoS doesn't want "tanky" players in PvP.

They rather enforce and buff burst spec's that can avoid, teleport, kite or shield they're way towards survival. But soaking dmg to stay alive, the way templars, DK's and tank in general are designed to function, is not allowed in Cyrodiil. Therefore heavy wont get any buffs.

Than there's PvE. Heavy armor is great for PvE tanking and the only viable option for harder content. We cant say that heavy armor need a buff for PvE really. Tanking(even with block nerf)is already really easy. Buff heavy and tanking would be total brain afk in PvE. Boosting the resource management passive some, would be nice tho. Make tanking more active.

I guess i don't understand how it is just so easy in pve...

Everything is "easy" if you do it exactly the right way.... and have the perfect team that do their jobs exactly the right way...
I have to group with GF on PS4.... by the time i can get online, most of my guilds have done the dailies and are offline.
For me to tank in a pug... that means - taunt, buff, heal myself, and find a way to do dps without running out of resources. (stamina being the big one) Tanking is easily the most difficult and annoying job of the 3... That's why there are so few tanks compared to dps and heals.

But yeah.. with perfect end game gear (which most people don't have) and a team with a perfect healer and perfect dps (which not many people get into) i suppose tanking would be "easy".

Anyway... i'm all for a change to heavy armor... the bonus to reduce block cost is worthless when no one really block anymore. (besides some heavy attacks or when you hit a low point in health)
Put something useful in that slot that requires 5 heavy armor pieces.

Ffastyl

To reiterate a bit on my large post a while back:
What of adding effects to passives that only have one effect? Comparing it to Medium Armor, most passives have multiple effects (Wind Walker, Improved Sneak and Athletics). Resolve, Juggernaut, Bracing and Rapid Mending can have additional effects added that fit with their themes, like Constitution.

If you think buffing Heavy Armor in this way has merit, I'll start brainstorming some effects for each passive.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Ffastyl wrote: »

To reiterate a bit on my large post a while back:
What of adding effects to passives that only have one effect? Comparing it to Medium Armor, most passives have multiple effects (Wind Walker, Improved Sneak and Athletics). Resolve, Juggernaut, Bracing and Rapid Mending can have additional effects added that fit with their themes, like Constitution.

If you think buffing Heavy Armor in this way has merit, I'll start brainstorming some effects for each passive.

Exactly cause the only way ZOS makes changes is either if "streamers" say it or enough players cry about it. Like I would settle for its skill to be fixed, reduce break free back into the passive, and they add a reduce penetration and snare effect. Maybe also add crit res to it's passives too cause who uses impen any more?

dodgehopper_ESO

I just had a thought, it might be cool to give heavy armor 'Reflect' damage such as existed in Skyrim's Heavy Armor Perks. This would help punish melee range enemies. Alternately this reflect effect could be part of utilizing Immovable, and scale with the # of HA pieces worn. I'm just offering a spitball idea here.

Artjuh90

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I just had a thought, it might be cool to give heavy armor 'Reflect' damage such as existed in Skyrim's Heavy Armor Perks. This would help punish melee range enemies. Alternately this reflect effect could be part of utilizing Immovable, and scale with the # of HA pieces worn. I'm just offering a spitball idea here.

this is kinda already in game spiked armor

neville_bart0s

a couple of ideas:

if you have 5 pieces of heavy you regain stamina whilst blocking but you do not regain health whilst blocking(you can still receive healing you just have 0 health regen while you block).

maybe make it so with 5 heavy you get extra armor that scales with your max health, so tanks actually put points in health and not just everything into stamina.

give heavy some love.

Artjuh90

whole blocking nerf/rework was just a LAZY ASS fix. like they do regular at ZoS. they should change then damage reducintion with different weapons and balance that out. now a tank isn't even good in PvE content anymore beter go full dps

Forestd16b14_ESO

neville_bart0s wrote: »

a couple of ideas:

if you have 5 pieces of heavy you regain stamina whilst blocking but you do not regain health whilst blocking(you can still receive healing you just have 0 health regen while you block).

maybe make it so with 5 heavy you get extra armor that scales with your max health, so tanks actually put points in health and not just everything into stamina.

give heavy some love.

first part no sorry. No health recovery while blocking is just as bad as no stamina recovery while blocking.

Second part yes.

Jura23

HA surely does need a buff, but I think they should consider how to make resistance values more relevant in general. Especially in PvP. You have CP perks increasing resistance when wearing light or medium and nobody is using them. I don't think that's intended.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Artjuh90 wrote: »

whole blocking nerf/rework was just a [to hot for the thread] fix. like they do regular at ZoS. they should change then damage reducintion with different weapons and balance that out. now a tank isn't even good in PvE content anymore beter go full dps

Careful with the "tongue" there don't want ZOS to shut the thread down...... Seems to be the only reason ZOS even reads post any way is to watch out for "rule breakers" and shut down threads either though they have good ideas.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Jura23 wrote: »

HA surely does need a buff, but I think they should consider how to make resistance values more relevant in general. Especially in PvP. You have CP perks increasing resistance when wearing light or medium and nobody is using them. I don't think that's intended.

Yes the warrior tree has some "lack luster" passives such as the physical res bonuses for the armors. But regardless even those skills can outclass HA res with enough into them which hopefully will finally show ZOS at how outclass and out dated HA is now.

Ffastyl

Resolve needs a buff to the base value, but in the spirit of adding secondary effects, it could add more Resistance based on Max Health. 0.5%(I)/1%(II)/1.5%(III) of Max Health added as Resistance sounds reasonable given the average tank runs around 20k - 23k Max Health; a full suit of Heavy Armor (7/7) for a 23k HP tank would add 2415 Resistance (10.5% of Max Health). Then there's a synergy between Resolve and Juggernaut.

Speaking of which, Juggernaut should probably reduce Break Free and/or Block cost per piece. I did think about adding a melee/physical damage bonus here but then it could be compounded with Medium and Light Armor damage boosts. 2%(I)/4%(II) cost reduction per piece of Heavy Armor for either (or both) Break Free and Block so a suit of 5/7 matches the current Bracing bonus of 20%. This also raises the maximum reduction to 28% for those wearing 7/7 Heavy Armor.

Why add Block cost reduction to Juggernaut when Bracing already has it? Because Bracing should be replaced with regenerate Stamina at 10%(I)/20%(II) of the normal rate while blocking and increase melee damage by 5%(I)/10%(II). Increasing Physical damage instead of melee grants a synergy with Bows for Heavy Armor users but it leaves out Magical attacks. By making it melee, both Magicka and Stamina based attacks get a damage boost.

Rapid Mending should, at the very least, have its percentages doubled to 1%(I)/2%(II) per piece if nothing else. However if a secondary effect is added, then doubling the percentages may be too big a buff. There are only two effects which come to mind that fit with the name Rapid Mending: Health Recovery, which Constitution covers, and increasing recovery rate from ailments. Rapid Mending could, in addition to increasing healing received, reduce the duration of negative effects by 1%(I)/2%(II) per piece, for a 14% duration reduction with 7/7 at Rank II, close to the maximum effect of similar CS stars. You can see why I think adding this effect while doubling the healing received value to be overkill.

Constitution is in a rather good place, requiring only minor tweaking. I am not sure what the value per piece is, but my ingame recovery per hit is 247. Given it procs every 4 seconds, this is +123.5 to my Recovery rates for Stamina and Magicka. Thinking of it this way, I can see why ZOS has made this effect superficially weak. That said, an increase to the base value so 5/7 grants 300 per hit (+150 to Recovery rates) or a reduction on the cooldown to 3 seconds is a called for buff. Note "or." Both increasing the base value and reducing the cooldown puts Heavy Armor Recovery rates, while conditional, on par with Medium and Light Armor, which should not be the case. Heavy Armor's intended tradeoff is good armor for bad resource management.


Thoughts on these suggestions? I personally think implementing every last one of them, while awesome, may overpower Heavy Armor. Resolve's buff I think is necessary but one of the buffs should be left unimplemented. Rapid Mending's secondary effect is the one we stand least to lose from, so it would be my choice to drop. For Juggernaut I would choose Block cost reduction over Break Free reduction, otherwise the changes to Bracing would completely remove Heavy Armor's Block cost reduction.

NoMoreChillies

Remove Armor Caps
Let tanks actually tank.

DPS have no dmg cap, why does tank?

MrDerrikk

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Remove Armor Caps
Let tanks actually tank.

DPS have no dmg cap, why does tank?

Bring back Softcaps, making it so there is a damage cap, and hybrid builds are feasible.

Forestd16b14_ESO

So @ZOS_BrianWheeler you reading this. Lot of players suggesting really good ideas for HA changes here.

dday3six

MrDerrikk wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Remove Armor Caps
Let tanks actually tank.

DPS have no dmg cap, why does tank?

Bring back Softcaps, making it so there is a damage cap, and hybrid builds are feasible.

That's not quite true. Bringing back softcaps would make hybrid builds pretty much the only option. Skills do not scale evenly. 1 point of a resource will increase some skills more than others, and thus setups would build toward mixing the skills that have the best scaling. Optimal builds with softcaps would nearly all be hybrid builds.

Softcaps didn't create balance, it created a meta in which magicka builds flourished. A stamina build's resource pool is strecthed thin because it's used for blocking, sprinting, dodging, and cc breaks as well as damage. Soft caps would strain stamina builds out of existence, and that's not balance.

hrothbern

I think there are many ways to buff Heavy Armor, many ideas mentioned in posts above of this thread, many in other threads.

Key is that the position of HA is different in PVP, normal PVE, Maelstrom and Dungeons where the HA Tank taunts.
There is quite a disconnect between those combat grounds. In PVP HA is e.g. heavily affected by Penetration, whereas in PVE the NPC's do not penetrate.

The structural big nerf to zero Stamina Regeneration during Blocking affected all combat grounds.

I believe that we, all kind of players and ZOS, should and can agree that the HA Tank that taunts in a Group must be an enjoyable and playable role in this game, a benefit to the Group, also for more casual players after some L2P.

@Wrobel , If you do not agree with the lines above in bold, a comment is appreciated.

Ideas for buffing the HA Tank should be clear whether they are aimed at:

• A general buffing
• Buffing HA in PVP
• Buffing HA for the taunting Tank role

So far most ideas to buff are a general buffing. Too much will create OP in PVP and that cannot be, IMO not even close to it.
So a more complex discussion.
I would favor to buff the taunt role first and move on from there.

A HA Tank that taunts is in a completely other position than a HA tanky build on the other combat grounds.
A HA Tank that taunts must have a very low risk appetite to die, because if he dies, the group wipes.
This low risk appetite means needing a higher Effective Health (high Mitigation from Armor Resistance & Evasion and big Health pool) and a higher usage of Blocking, Break Free and Roll Dodging.
And also the disadvantage to sacrifice one slot for the taunt, the resource costs for the taunt, the cast time in the rotations for the taunt.
With the recent nerf to zero Stamina recovery during Blocking, the Tank is forced to spend more Gear features, Jewelry enchants, CP perks, resources, slots and casts on keeping Stamina up balanced with an increased risk appetite to Block less.

So a couple of general buffs for HA are IMO needed and as said, many ideas mentioned...

but the for me most important improvement is that there come buffs that help the taunting role of a taunting Tank for casual players !!!

The most simple way to do that is add some buffs during the taunt being active. Also valid during solo. Nothing OP will come from that. Has anyway no effect on PVP.
These taunt buffs could be handled in the HA passives added to the existing HA passives.

Possible taunt buffs, only valid in HA, with 5 pcs of HA, could be:

• a 20% Increase on the Health pool (4% per piece)
• a 20% Cost reduction on Break Free and Dodge Roll (4% per piece)
• a 20% Regeneration of Stamina during Blocking (4% per piece)
• other

EDIT added as clarification:
The proposed buffs are for taunted NPC's.
Aimed at the Tank Role in Pledges & Trials and World Bosses.
So not for PVP.

Ffastyl

dday3six wrote: »

MrDerrikk wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

Remove Armor Caps
Let tanks actually tank.

DPS have no dmg cap, why does tank?

Bring back Softcaps, making it so there is a damage cap, and hybrid builds are feasible.

That's not quite true. Bringing back softcaps would make hybrid builds pretty much the only option. Skills do not scale evenly. 1 point of a resource will increase some skills more than others, and thus setups would build toward mixing the skills that have the best scaling. Optimal builds with softcaps would nearly all be hybrid builds.

Softcaps didn't create balance, it created a meta in which magicka builds flourished. A stamina build's resource pool is strecthed thin because it's used for blocking, sprinting, dodging, and cc breaks as well as damage. Soft caps would strain stamina builds out of existence, and that's not balance.

This is glancing over the big picture. Originally, Magicka and Stamina could achieve relatively equal stats, so Magicka, which had more utility, was more widely used by the playerbase. Since then (and before Update 6) Stamina abilities had their cost reduced, damage increased, armor passives balanced and with Update 6 Stamina has gained more utility and the weapon lines have been buffed. Returning soft caps does not undo all these balance changes. Even in pre-1.6, Stamina builds existed and succeeded. Stamina Heavy Armor builds existed and succeeded. I made several such builds. Yes, they succeeded in PvP and PvE. Soft caps cannot "strain stamina builds out of existence," they existed even when Magicka was dominant.

But right now? Hybrid builds are an extreme rarity. I did manage to create one, but the maximum damage output lagged behind any pure build. In PvP it may succeed but for PvE the resource management gained by alternating between Stamina and Magicka does not matter when the resultant DPS is lower than a pure build. But the main reason soft caps (or hard caps) should be instated is to limit the grossly overpowered and lopsided builds that have become cookie cutter. The 'one-shot wonder' builds of today existed even before Update 6, but because of soft caps they were esoteric and difficult to achieve.

Reinstating soft/hard caps will not bring back the imbalance of pre-1.6. At the very least it will create the necessary yet lacking limit on player power in a competitive multiplayer game and at most reinstate hybrid builds as the most efficient "average joe" build.

hrothbern wrote: »

The most simple way to do that is add some buffs during the taunt being active. Also valid during solo. Nothing OP will come from that. Has anyway no effect on PVP.
These taunt buffs could be handled in the HA passives added to the existing HA passives.

Possible taunt buffs, only valid in HA, with 5 pcs of HA, could be:

• a 20% Increase on the Health pool (4% per piece)
• a 20% Cost reduction on Break Free and Dodge Roll (4% per piece)
• a 20% Regeneration of Stamina during Blocking (4% per piece)
• other

Reducing damage taken from taunted enemies can be one buff to add to it. The buffs you suggest seem rather extreme considering the current numbers/buffs ingame for an ability. For passives, these percentages make sense, but for an ability that anyone can use they should be lower. That said, the Taunt debuff only applies to NPCs so granting a flat damage reduction against them would be a reasonable buff. 20%, like your suggestions, is the first percentage to jump to mind. But 10% or even 5% would be more reasonable. Keep in mind this a flat reduction, rather than a buff to armor, and only applies to the Taunter (Tank) from Taunted (NPC). i.e. If the Taunted attacks another player, they take normal damage.

Forestd16b14_ESO

hrothbern wrote: »

I think there are many ways to buff Heavy Armor, many ideas mentioned in posts above of this thread, many in other threads.

Key is that the position of HA is different in PVP, normal PVE, Maelstrom and Dungeons where the HA Tank taunts.
There is quite a disconnect between those combat grounds. In PVP HA is e.g. heavily affected by Penetration, whereas in PVE the NPC's do not penetrate.

The structural big nerf to zero Stamina Regeneration during Blocking affected all combat grounds.

I believe that we, all kind of players and ZOS, should and can agree that the HA Tank that taunts in a Group must be an enjoyable and playable role in this game, a benefit to the Group, also for more casual players after some L2P.

@Wrobel , If you do not agree with the lines above in bold, a comment is appreciated.

Ideas for buffing the HA Tank should be clear whether they are aimed at:

• A general buffing
• Buffing HA in PVP
• Buffing HA for the taunting Tank role

So far most ideas to buff are a general buffing. Too much will create OP in PVP and that cannot be, IMO not even close to it.
So a more complex discussion.
I would favor to buff the taunt role first and move on from there.

A HA Tank that taunts is in a completely other position than a HA tanky build on the other combat grounds.
A HA Tank that taunts must have a very low risk appetite to die, because if he dies, the group wipes.
This low risk appetite means needing a higher Effective Health (high Mitigation from Armor Resistance & Evasion and big Health pool) and a higher usage of Blocking, Break Free and Roll Dodging.
And also the disadvantage to sacrifice one slot for the taunt, the resource costs for the taunt, the cast time in the rotations for the taunt.
With the recent nerf to zero Stamina recovery during Blocking, the Tank is forced to spend more Gear features, Jewelry enchants, CP perks, resources, slots and casts on keeping Stamina up balanced with an increased risk appetite to Block less.

So a couple of general buffs for HA are IMO needed and as said, many ideas mentioned...

but the for me most important improvement is that there come buffs that help the taunting role of a taunting Tank for casual players !!!

The most simple way to do that is add some buffs during the taunt being active. Also valid during solo. Nothing OP will come from that. Has anyway no effect on PVP.
These taunt buffs could be handled in the HA passives added to the existing HA passives.

Possible taunt buffs, only valid in HA, with 5 pcs of HA, could be:

• a 20% Increase on the Health pool (4% per piece)
• a 20% Cost reduction on Break Free and Dodge Roll (4% per piece)
• a 20% Regeneration of Stamina during Blocking (4% per piece)
• other

Buffs from taunts while wearing 5+ HA..... IDK if that could work in pvp cause the damage of taunts are low and I'm sure players will still rather use other higher damage skills than a taunt just for a few buffs for a few seconds. Plus there's only 2 taunts int he game and when was the last time you see a SnS in PvP ? Plus plus if it only get the buffs from the target who you hit and is attacking you that would be kinda useless seeing how players just bunch up in PvP to cause frame drops and lag.

Side note Sword N' Shield needs re-worked to offer a smig more DPS. Like yes it's a shield and all but again this ties in HA about how no one uses it cause it offers no DPS and it just sitting next to HA (and Temps and DKs) on the shelf.

hrothbern

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

I think there are many ways to buff Heavy Armor, many ideas mentioned in posts above of this thread, many in other threads.

Key is that the position of HA is different in PVP, normal PVE, Maelstrom and Dungeons where the HA Tank taunts.
There is quite a disconnect between those combat grounds. In PVP HA is e.g. heavily affected by Penetration, whereas in PVE the NPC's do not penetrate.

The structural big nerf to zero Stamina Regeneration during Blocking affected all combat grounds.

I believe that we, all kind of players and ZOS, should and can agree that the HA Tank that taunts in a Group must be an enjoyable and playable role in this game, a benefit to the Group, also for more casual players after some L2P.

@Wrobel , If you do not agree with the lines above in bold, a comment is appreciated.

Ideas for buffing the HA Tank should be clear whether they are aimed at:

• A general buffing
• Buffing HA in PVP
• Buffing HA for the taunting Tank role

So far most ideas to buff are a general buffing. Too much will create OP in PVP and that cannot be, IMO not even close to it.
So a more complex discussion.
I would favor to buff the taunt role first and move on from there.

A HA Tank that taunts is in a completely other position than a HA tanky build on the other combat grounds.
A HA Tank that taunts must have a very low risk appetite to die, because if he dies, the group wipes.
This low risk appetite means needing a higher Effective Health (high Mitigation from Armor Resistance & Evasion and big Health pool) and a higher usage of Blocking, Break Free and Roll Dodging.
And also the disadvantage to sacrifice one slot for the taunt, the resource costs for the taunt, the cast time in the rotations for the taunt.
With the recent nerf to zero Stamina recovery during Blocking, the Tank is forced to spend more Gear features, Jewelry enchants, CP perks, resources, slots and casts on keeping Stamina up balanced with an increased risk appetite to Block less.

So a couple of general buffs for HA are IMO needed and as said, many ideas mentioned...

but the for me most important improvement is that there come buffs that help the taunting role of a taunting Tank for casual players !!!

The most simple way to do that is add some buffs during the taunt being active. Also valid during solo. Nothing OP will come from that. Has anyway no effect on PVP.
These taunt buffs could be handled in the HA passives added to the existing HA passives.

Possible taunt buffs, only valid in HA, with 5 pcs of HA, could be:

• a 20% Increase on the Health pool (4% per piece)
• a 20% Cost reduction on Break Free and Dodge Roll (4% per piece)
• a 20% Regeneration of Stamina during Blocking (4% per piece)
• other

Buffs from taunts while wearing 5+ HA..... IDK if that could work in pvp cause the damage of taunts are low and I'm sure players will still rather use other higher damage skills than a taunt just for a few buffs for a few seconds. Plus there's only 2 taunts int he game and when was the last time you see a SnS in PvP ? Plus plus if it only get the buffs from the target who you hit and is attacking you that would be kinda useless seeing how players just bunch up in PvP to cause frame drops and lag.

Side note Sword N' Shield needs re-worked to offer a smig more DPS. Like yes it's a shield and all but again this ties in HA about how no one uses it cause it offers no DPS and it just sitting next to HA (and Temps and DKs) on the shelf.

"Buffs from taunts while wearing 5+ HA..... IDK if that could work in pvp......"
as you say IDK:

The buffs I put forward are solely intended for PVE, especially for the Tank role in Pledges and Trials. To make it easier for casual players to play a Tank role. Including new players.
New players that want to tank, and ofc in HA, that are doing some research on forums, will be scared off by the current bad shape of the HA Tank and all posts around it. That must be fixed fast.

I separated that from the needed general HA buffing because that is pretty complex when PVP balancing must also be considered.
As you say: HA and SnS are on the shelf.
HA is not competitive in PVP, HA is not competitive in the vet Maelstrom Arena. The recent poll shows that of the characters that completed vMA, ONLY 5% were HA.

NBrookus

I like the idea of damage mitigation + stam regen while blocking a taunted enemy for heavy armor users. It specifically helps tanking in PvE, which is where most of the stam changes have really hurt, but wouldn't really upset any other balance.

Forestd16b14_ESO

hrothbern wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

I think there are many ways to buff Heavy Armor, many ideas mentioned in posts above of this thread, many in other threads.

Key is that the position of HA is different in PVP, normal PVE, Maelstrom and Dungeons where the HA Tank taunts.
There is quite a disconnect between those combat grounds. In PVP HA is e.g. heavily affected by Penetration, whereas in PVE the NPC's do not penetrate.

The structural big nerf to zero Stamina Regeneration during Blocking affected all combat grounds.

I believe that we, all kind of players and ZOS, should and can agree that the HA Tank that taunts in a Group must be an enjoyable and playable role in this game, a benefit to the Group, also for more casual players after some L2P.

@Wrobel , If you do not agree with the lines above in bold, a comment is appreciated.

Ideas for buffing the HA Tank should be clear whether they are aimed at:

• A general buffing
• Buffing HA in PVP
• Buffing HA for the taunting Tank role

So far most ideas to buff are a general buffing. Too much will create OP in PVP and that cannot be, IMO not even close to it.
So a more complex discussion.
I would favor to buff the taunt role first and move on from there.

A HA Tank that taunts is in a completely other position than a HA tanky build on the other combat grounds.
A HA Tank that taunts must have a very low risk appetite to die, because if he dies, the group wipes.
This low risk appetite means needing a higher Effective Health (high Mitigation from Armor Resistance & Evasion and big Health pool) and a higher usage of Blocking, Break Free and Roll Dodging.
And also the disadvantage to sacrifice one slot for the taunt, the resource costs for the taunt, the cast time in the rotations for the taunt.
With the recent nerf to zero Stamina recovery during Blocking, the Tank is forced to spend more Gear features, Jewelry enchants, CP perks, resources, slots and casts on keeping Stamina up balanced with an increased risk appetite to Block less.

So a couple of general buffs for HA are IMO needed and as said, many ideas mentioned...

but the for me most important improvement is that there come buffs that help the taunting role of a taunting Tank for casual players !!!

The most simple way to do that is add some buffs during the taunt being active. Also valid during solo. Nothing OP will come from that. Has anyway no effect on PVP.
These taunt buffs could be handled in the HA passives added to the existing HA passives.

Possible taunt buffs, only valid in HA, with 5 pcs of HA, could be:

• a 20% Increase on the Health pool (4% per piece)
• a 20% Cost reduction on Break Free and Dodge Roll (4% per piece)
• a 20% Regeneration of Stamina during Blocking (4% per piece)
• other

Buffs from taunts while wearing 5+ HA..... IDK if that could work in pvp cause the damage of taunts are low and I'm sure players will still rather use other higher damage skills than a taunt just for a few buffs for a few seconds. Plus there's only 2 taunts int he game and when was the last time you see a SnS in PvP ? Plus plus if it only get the buffs from the target who you hit and is attacking you that would be kinda useless seeing how players just bunch up in PvP to cause frame drops and lag.

Side note Sword N' Shield needs re-worked to offer a smig more DPS. Like yes it's a shield and all but again this ties in HA about how no one uses it cause it offers no DPS and it just sitting next to HA (and Temps and DKs) on the shelf.

"Buffs from taunts while wearing 5+ HA..... IDK if that could work in pvp......"
as you say IDK:

The buffs I put forward are solely intended for PVE, especially for the Tank role in Pledges and Trials. To make it easier for casual players to play a Tank role. Including new players.
New players that want to tank, and ofc in HA, that are doing some research on forums, will be scared off by the current bad shape of the HA Tank and all posts around it. That must be fixed fast.

I separated that from the needed general HA buffing because that is pretty complex when PVP balancing must also be considered.
As you say: HA and SnS are on the shelf.
HA is not competitive in PVP, HA is not competitive in the vet Maelstrom Arena. The recent poll shows that of the characters that completed vMA, ONLY 5% were HA.

See for PvE yes the buff for taunts will make sense and yes I want to encourage new players to be tanks but as you said they can just search around on the forums and do some research and see how truly bad the state of HA is now not only in PvP but PvE cause players can fill the res gap with CP and shields. Such as NB tanks they fill the healing in with there siphoning attacks and the block with rolling they don't need HA at all just a shield and lot's of rolling and if they run low on health they just use some of there siphoning skills and restore almost all there HP in a few seconds while also killing the enemies.

I encourage change to the game after all that what a tank is supposed to do is adapt to change which tanks have done but they change has done more harm then good. With the Dragon Knight and Templar class being lack luster right now alot of tanks have switched to NB for as I said the siphoning attacks so they figured they just need HA to fill the tank roll but they realized tanks have changed HA has not and has become out dated and just stuck with MA and realized "my goddess I can tank even better as a NB in medium armor than the old tank way". Pretty soon the new players will get it that wanna tank you have to be a NB in MA and then when every one is asking for a tank and you say you are one they'll say "sorry we want a NB in medium armor not a heavy armor user". That is the path HA and tanks are on right now if something does not change HA will be completely out dated and tanks will eventually change to semi-DPS.

Like I think just comes down to HA got screwed over in 1.6 update 6 and ZOS over nerfed it via passives and skill and just let it sit thinking in there heads that it was fine. But in actuality HA is not only out classed by the other armor and sets but it's out dated cause the past 2 major updates U7 & U8 or IC and Orsinium patches HA has gotten nothing not even any new decent armor sets yet LA has gotten 100% increases to it's base armor value and laws of Julionos AKA magicka version of Hundings rage. Like how is HA supposed to compete against that when its out dated and the only form of defense that has gotten updated was damage shields and magicka already runs the game?

dodgehopper_ESO

Artjuh90 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I just had a thought, it might be cool to give heavy armor 'Reflect' damage such as existed in Skyrim's Heavy Armor Perks. This would help punish melee range enemies. Alternately this reflect effect could be part of utilizing Immovable, and scale with the # of HA pieces worn. I'm just offering a spitball idea here.

this is kinda already in game spiked armor

I know, but I'm talking about a heavy armor passive not a Dk active skill.

Forestd16b14_ESO

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I just had a thought, it might be cool to give heavy armor 'Reflect' damage such as existed in Skyrim's Heavy Armor Perks. This would help punish melee range enemies. Alternately this reflect effect could be part of utilizing Immovable, and scale with the # of HA pieces worn. I'm just offering a spitball idea here.

this is kinda already in game spiked armor

I know, but I'm talking about a heavy armor passive not a Dk active skill.

Would be nice and yes be better as a HA passive. But thinking about it that it would stack with DKs spiked armor and honestly be fair and be nice buff to DKs. Now before any one thinks " DKs having 2X reflecting damage nerf nerf nerf" Spiked armor only reflects like 600 points and that's maxed out and only does so with melee strikes. Last timed I checked players tend to use long range attacks more and if they did add it and it stacked it be only at what 1000 points of reflect damage. Not that powerful.

But all in all that is still more useful that immovable so again ZOS fix immovable.

Ffastyl

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I just had a thought, it might be cool to give heavy armor 'Reflect' damage such as existed in Skyrim's Heavy Armor Perks. This would help punish melee range enemies. Alternately this reflect effect could be part of utilizing Immovable, and scale with the # of HA pieces worn. I'm just offering a spitball idea here.

this is kinda already in game spiked armor

I know, but I'm talking about a heavy armor passive not a Dk active skill.

Would be nice and yes be better as a HA passive. But thinking about it that it would stack with DKs spiked armor and honestly be fair and be nice buff to DKs. Now before any one thinks " DKs having 2X reflecting damage nerf nerf nerf" Spiked armor only reflects like 600 points and that's maxed out and only does so with melee strikes. Last timed I checked players tend to use long range attacks more and if they did add it and it stacked it be only at what 1000 points of reflect damage. Not that powerful.

But all in all that is still more useful that immovable so again ZOS fix immovable.

A tweak to Unstoppable that came to mind while playing was to change the percent increase in duration to a flat value. Right now the maximum possible duration increase is 5% x 7 = 35%, which bumps the Major Resolve/Ward duration to 20.25 seconds and the CC-immunity to 6.75 seconds. If the boost is changed to 1 second per piece of Heavy Armor, the maximum duration becomes 22 for the armor buff and 12 seconds for the CC-immunity.

Since the reason Immovable's CC-immunity duration was decreased was due to Light Armor users using the ability as a crutch, this change gates the CC-immunity behind the use of Heavy Armor. Light Armor users are likely to wear 2 pieces of Heavy Armor for armor's sake, making their durations 17 seconds and 7 seconds respectively.

The ranks would work out to 0.25 sec (I) / 0.5 sec (II) / 0.75 sec (III) / 1.0 sec (IV). Unstoppable could be further buffed to 0.5 sec per rank (2 sec at IV for 29 seconds Major Resolve/Ward and 19 seconds CC-immunity at 7/7) as well. But then non-Heavy users can get 9 seconds CC-immunity from 2 pieces. Therefore the base duration of 5 seconds could be reduced to 3 seconds, keeping the exceptionally long CC-immunity times gated behind Heavy Armor use (2 piece becomes 7 seconds and 7 piece bonus becomes 17 seconds).

But this change would nerf Immovable Brute, so the change in base value could be a change made only to the Unstoppable morph or Immovable Brute could gain the added effect of increasing CC-immunity time by 4% per Heavy Armor piece worn in addition to reduced Break Free cost by 4% per Heavy Armor piece worn. CC-immunity after Breaking Free lasts 8 seconds (correct me if I am off), so the 2 piece bonus would be 8% reduced cost and 8.64 seconds of CC-immunity while the 5 piece bonus would be 20% reduced cost and 9.6 seconds of CC-immunity and the 7 piece bonus would be 28% reduced cost and 10.24 seconds of CC-immunity. Additionally, the 3 second CC-immunity granted by the ability would be boosted to 3.24 seconds, 3.6 seconds and 3.84 seconds respectively.

...Potions of Immovability would be affected too, unless specifically stated/coded otherwise. With the Medicinal Use passive, Essence of Immovability (Veteran Rank 15) grants 15.7 seconds of CC-immunity. The 2, 5 and 7 piece bonuses would buff that to 16.96, 18.84 and 20.1 seconds respectively. Potions can therefore still be stronger than Immovable, though on a cooldown. It is tough to say whether Immovable Brute's effect should apply to potions or not, given the relatively small gap as well (3.1 seconds to Unstoppable compared to 8.95 seconds in the current build).

The above makes altering the base time for CC-immunity exclusive to the Unstoppable morph just as viable as buffing Immovable Brute in the described way.
I do need to mention the current cost of Immovable is about 4,000 Stamina, more than Evasion, which grants better protection than Immovable currently. If these buffs are implemented, do not increase the cost to compensate for the added power. These changes will make Immovable worth the cost it has currently.

Preyfar

Ffastyl wrote: »

To reiterate a bit on my large post a while back:
What of adding effects to passives that only have one effect? Comparing it to Medium Armor, most passives have multiple effects (Wind Walker, Improved Sneak and Athletics). Resolve, Juggernaut, Bracing and Rapid Mending can have additional effects added that fit with their themes, like Constitution.

If you think buffing Heavy Armor in this way has merit, I'll start brainstorming some effects for each passive.

I'd consider the following:
* A buff to heavy attacks (there's more force to go into the swing given you're wearing heavy armor)
* A buff to attacks that involve bashing and/or closers (e.g. when the tank shield rushes you, the force from the tank's rush is that much greater, giving skills like Crit Rush and Shield Charge a damage buff).

Not everything has to be solely be regen.

hrothbern

Ffastyl wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Artjuh90 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I just had a thought, it might be cool to give heavy armor 'Reflect' damage such as existed in Skyrim's Heavy Armor Perks. This would help punish melee range enemies. Alternately this reflect effect could be part of utilizing Immovable, and scale with the # of HA pieces worn. I'm just offering a spitball idea here.

this is kinda already in game spiked armor

I know, but I'm talking about a heavy armor passive not a Dk active skill.

Would be nice and yes be better as a HA passive. But thinking about it that it would stack with DKs spiked armor and honestly be fair and be nice buff to DKs. Now before any one thinks " DKs having 2X reflecting damage nerf nerf nerf" Spiked armor only reflects like 600 points and that's maxed out and only does so with melee strikes. Last timed I checked players tend to use long range attacks more and if they did add it and it stacked it be only at what 1000 points of reflect damage. Not that powerful.

But all in all that is still more useful that immovable so again ZOS fix immovable.

A tweak to Unstoppable that came to mind while playing was to change the percent increase in duration to a flat value. Right now the maximum possible duration increase is 5% x 7 = 35%, which bumps the Major Resolve/Ward duration to 20.25 seconds and the CC-immunity to 6.75 seconds. If the boost is changed to 1 second per piece of Heavy Armor, the maximum duration becomes 22 for the armor buff and 12 seconds for the CC-immunity.

Since the reason Immovable's CC-immunity duration was decreased was due to Light Armor users using the ability as a crutch, this change gates the CC-immunity behind the use of Heavy Armor. Light Armor users are likely to wear 2 pieces of Heavy Armor for armor's sake, making their durations 17 seconds and 7 seconds respectively.

The ranks would work out to 0.25 sec (I) / 0.5 sec (II) / 0.75 sec (III) / 1.0 sec (IV). Unstoppable could be further buffed to 0.5 sec per rank (2 sec at IV for 29 seconds Major Resolve/Ward and 19 seconds CC-immunity at 7/7) as well. But then non-Heavy users can get 9 seconds CC-immunity from 2 pieces. Therefore the base duration of 5 seconds could be reduced to 3 seconds, keeping the exceptionally long CC-immunity times gated behind Heavy Armor use (2 piece becomes 7 seconds and 7 piece bonus becomes 17 seconds).

But this change would nerf Immovable Brute, so the change in base value could be a change made only to the Unstoppable morph or Immovable Brute could gain the added effect of increasing CC-immunity time by 4% per Heavy Armor piece worn in addition to reduced Break Free cost by 4% per Heavy Armor piece worn. CC-immunity after Breaking Free lasts 8 seconds (correct me if I am off), so the 2 piece bonus would be 8% reduced cost and 8.64 seconds of CC-immunity while the 5 piece bonus would be 20% reduced cost and 9.6 seconds of CC-immunity and the 7 piece bonus would be 28% reduced cost and 10.24 seconds of CC-immunity. Additionally, the 3 second CC-immunity granted by the ability would be boosted to 3.24 seconds, 3.6 seconds and 3.84 seconds respectively.

...Potions of Immovability would be affected too, unless specifically stated/coded otherwise. With the Medicinal Use passive, Essence of Immovability (Veteran Rank 15) grants 15.7 seconds of CC-immunity. The 2, 5 and 7 piece bonuses would buff that to 16.96, 18.84 and 20.1 seconds respectively. Potions can therefore still be stronger than Immovable, though on a cooldown. It is tough to say whether Immovable Brute's effect should apply to potions or not, given the relatively small gap as well (3.1 seconds to Unstoppable compared to 8.95 seconds in the current build).

The above makes altering the base time for CC-immunity exclusive to the Unstoppable morph just as viable as buffing Immovable Brute in the described way.
I do need to mention the current cost of Immovable is about 4,000 Stamina, more than Evasion, which grants better protection than Immovable currently. If these buffs are implemented, do not increase the cost to compensate for the added power. These changes will make Immovable worth the cost it has currently.

Good post

This makes Unstoppable valuable again for HA based on a "natural" synergy.
And by that HA.

It does also fit very well to a tank that does block much much less !
(Stamina costs of Unstoppable & Stamina costs blocking)

And lore wise:
Heavy Armor should be "a Tower of Strength" , standing his ground in the front line....
Immovable & Unstoppable.

Hope499

Would love to hear something about this.

Dont even touch my heavy armor tank DK anymore...


it is just silly to not use mck sorc....

I really, really, reallllly want a reason to start using a heavy armor tank again....