Heavy armor needs buffed already.

Forestd16b14_ESO

sneakymitchell wrote: »

In order to get great mitigation why not but points in cp with a load of points in hardy and elemently defender when thieves guild comes out get ready to get 120 unchained stamina build wrecking blowers.

This is how heavy armor can be useless most the time.

It's the new hardy that is driving the final nails into heavy armors coffin.

trucqulent

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

In my opinion Armor should work as followed.

Light: Powerful attacks have to stand behind shields and range to win. Can't take more then a few hits without a shield up.

Medium: Powerful attacks have to keep moving good at range or Melee. Can take a fair amount of hits.

Heavy: Powerful attacks have to keep enemies in Melee range the worst at ranged attacks but can take far more hits.

What we have makes more sense then release but is still not there.

yeah - that's one of my biggest issues.

especially while leveling, even with full heavy armor there trade-off of dps for survivability just isn't as pronounced as it could be.

Forestd16b14_ESO

trucqulent wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

In my opinion Armor should work as followed.

Light: Powerful attacks have to stand behind shields and range to win. Can't take more then a few hits without a shield up.

Medium: Powerful attacks have to keep moving good at range or Melee. Can take a fair amount of hits.

Heavy: Powerful attacks have to keep enemies in Melee range the worst at ranged attacks but can take far more hits.

What we have makes more sense then release but is still not there.

yeah - that's one of my biggest issues.

especially while leveling, even with full heavy armor there trade-off of dps for survivability just isn't as pronounced as it could be.

And that's why alot of players want HA buffed cause trading off massive DPS for a 50% hard cap survivbility chance is as you said not worth it.

Cause why trade off that massive damage when you also have accesses to damage shields and rolling which have been proven to be far better than mitigation for defense.

Bashev

Light armor - reduce magicka cost and magicka regen
Medium armor - reduce stamina cost and stamina regen
Heavy armor - why not reduce ultimate cost and ultimate regen?

Forestd16b14_ESO

Bashev wrote: »

Light armor - reduce magicka cost and magicka regen
Medium armor - reduce stamina cost and stamina regen
Heavy armor - why not reduce ultimate cost and ultimate regen?

Could work but then again there will already be enough meteor spam when TG update drops.

Ffastyl

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

increases magicka and stamina recovery by 5% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor.

This is actually a nerf compared to what I have on Live. At 1200 Recovery, the current Constitution bonus is a 13% increase and even at my more optimized 2000 Stamina Recovery, the current bonus is an 8% increase. Plus, too many percentage modifiers is part of why we are in the current damage stacking meta. With the proposed Recovery increase here, Stamina/Magicka Recovery must reach 3000 before it can be on par with what Heavy Armor has today.

And again, I cannot agree with the 5+ requirement on Immovable. Look at post #58 for my idea with buffing Immovable.

@Forestd16b14_ESO Your suggestions are improving over past attempts but please do some math too. Just because a bonus sounds nice and balanced does not mean it is nice and balanced.

ShadowDisciple

Nénlindë wrote: »

I agree entirely with this thread. Heavy Armor obviously does need some buffing, but it's a very delicate subject.

nothing delicate here bro... mediu armor has 75% armor rating of an equivalent heavy piece... buuuuut medium set has the much needed stamina managment

Easy Fix - Sword and Shield line passives has to be transfered in some way to heavy armor... so no more medium armor + sword and block pwners..

in Duels i always use S&B and there is no good reason to use anything else...sometimes i try dual wield, but i just give uo very soon and pull out S&B again

Forestd16b14_ESO

Ffastyl wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

increases magicka and stamina recovery by 5% when wearing 5+ pieces of heavy armor.

This is actually a nerf compared to what I have on Live. At 1200 Recovery, the current Constitution bonus is a 13% increase and even at my more optimized 2000 Stamina Recovery, the current bonus is an 8% increase. Plus, too many percentage modifiers is part of why we are in the current damage stacking meta. With the proposed Recovery increase here, Stamina/Magicka Recovery must reach 3000 before it can be on par with what Heavy Armor has today.

And again, I cannot agree with the 5+ requirement on Immovable. Look at post #58 for my idea with buffing Immovable.

@Forestd16b14_ESO Your suggestions are improving over past attempts but please do some math too. Just because a bonus sounds nice and balanced does not mean it is nice and balanced.

Look I a sorry but 5+ pieces are needed for the armor skills other wise immovable be back were it started of every one including LA and MA users using it and of course exploiting it making it get nerfed again. That's why it was nerfed to begin with that every one was using it making CCs totally useless in AvA and as we all know best way to make sure some on is dead in AvA is to CC them. Want to use immovable then use HA like your supposed too.

And just cause you have better recovery than the new passives I suggested doesn't mean every one else does. I am sorry but you are starting to sound like "learn to play my way" if you want to recommend a change then please post it not just say do the math that is what this thread was created for. For players to recommend changes they want and build off that to hopefully a new HA that ZOS can add to the game cause how it is now LA and MA users clearly outlast HA users while also maintaining that DPS.

urkonse

imo they shall overall buff tanking. as tanking currently doesnt feel very tanky & it nerfes your dps to....negative

Ffastyl

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

you are starting to sound like "learn to play my way"

There were better ways for me to word what I said... What I'm trying to get across is to be conscientious of the Devs current framework and intents for overall balance. The passives you listed in the last large post I like, I gave an awesome for them, but the 5+ requirements on active abilities is a limitation not seen on any other abilities and heavily using this requirement makes Heavy Armor difficult to utilize for hybrid players. It comes across as trying to reinvent the wheel, something the Devs are unlikely to do (attempted to in Update 6).

The criticism on percentages is that it modifies a base value: the higher the value, the higher the benefit. So a 5%, 10%, X% increase will be more beneficial to 2k Recovery than 1k Recovery.

Ffastyl wrote: »

At 1200 Recovery, the current Constitution bonus is a 13% increase and even at my more optimized 2000 Stamina Recovery, the current bonus is an 8% increase. Plus, too many percentage modifiers is part of why we are in the current damage stacking meta. With the proposed Recovery increase here, Stamina/Magicka Recovery must reach 3000 before it can be on par with what Heavy Armor has today.

The math here was intended to show how changing from a constant to a percentage would be detrimental to Heavy Armor, which has lower Recovery to begin with. I approximated the benefit of Constitution as 150 because it restores a little over 300 each hit every 4 seconds (Recovery ticks every 2 seconds). What would help low Recovery the most is a constant increase, like we see in the current Constitution. Increasing its value, decreasing its cooldown or removing its condition are ways to buff Heavy Armor Recovery.

RatedChaotic

Would like to see......Having shield block up buffs allies behind with physical and magic resist. Would make us full tanks feel more useful. I miss yellin "Shield Wall".

I55UE5

Bashev wrote: »

Light armor - reduce magicka cost and magicka regen
Medium armor - reduce stamina cost and stamina regen
Heavy armor - why not reduce ultimate cost and ultimate regen?

Really like the sound of this. Though it would only highlight more class imbalances.

hrothbern

RatedChaotic wrote: »

Would like to see......Having shield block up buffs allies behind with physical and magic resist. Would make us full tanks feel more useful. I miss yellin "Shield Wall".

I miss yellin "Shield Wall

yeah... I miss that to

joleda4ub17_ESO

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

In order to get great mitigation why not but points in cp with a load of points in hardy and elemently defender when thieves guild comes out get ready to get 120 unchained stamina build wrecking blowers.

This is how heavy armor can be useless most the time.

It's the new hardy that is driving the final nails into heavy armors coffin.

How so? Educate me, please.

Ffastyl

Hardy will reduce Physical Damage taken by a percentage. This percentage reduction is done after mitigation is factored, meaning it is unaffected by Armor Penetration. And as percentages go, the more damage taken, the more this passive reduces it. So non plated players will receive more mitigation from Hardy than plated players, reducing the mitigation difference between armor types even more. Given Heavy Armor in its current state only has mitigation going for it, Hardy will "drive the final nails into heavy armors coffin."

joleda4ub17_ESO

Ffastyl wrote: »

Hardy will reduce Physical Damage taken by a percentage. This percentage reduction is done after mitigation is factored, meaning it is unaffected by Armor Penetration. And as percentages go, the more damage taken, the more this passive reduces it. So non plated players will receive more mitigation from Hardy than plated players, reducing the mitigation difference between armor types even more. Given Heavy Armor in its current state only has mitigation going for it, Hardy will "drive the final nails into heavy armors coffin."

Thanks for the explanation!

Forestd16b14_ESO

@Ffastyl

I am all for the hybrid build hence why some passives need 5+ and some just per piece but when coming to the active skill I personally believe not just for immovable but all 3 armor skills need 5+ pieces to use. You need a bow to use focus aim you need a 2H to use wrecking blow so I have no idea why ZOS made it so that you don't even need armor on to use a armor skill.

Now as a tank player the normal go is to have good health recovery and ok stamina and some how good stamina recovery too so the +5% recovery would help too but if you feel that even then it's lacking compare to the current regen system of constitution then it can be bumped up to 10% but it can not be too powerful cause then the DPS players will scream unkillable OP again and nerf HA again.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Also since were ont eh topic ZOS can you also please clean up the 9 basic race style especially for HA. Like yes the new stuff looks shiny but what about the old stuff?

Ffastyl

As long as these buffs are not blatantly overpowered, "immortals" will not be something to worry about. Even currently, there are many draws in duels involving Heavy Armor focused players so it is clear Heavy Armor still lacks the offense to overcome enemy defense (healing/mitigation/evasion).

I am of the stance percentage modifiers are only acceptable as the only type of modifier or where the cumulative bonus is less than or equal to 10%. The current balancing with many base modifiers (sets, enchantments) and cumulative percentage modifiers of over 75% (20% Major Brutality/Sorcery, 5% Minor, 25% Major Berzerk, 25% CP, passives) has shown to not be balanced. In a game with many levels stats have to scale to, percentages are attractive as they only require one percentage to cover all levels as opposed to making a flat value for each level, but we can already see where that leads us. There is also the fact that percentage boosts favor pure builds. Diminishing returns favor hybrid builds and flat values favor neither type.

Constitution at 7/7 is 28% Health Recovery and 346 Stamina/Magicka per hit per 4 seconds. It could be buffed to 100 Health Recovery and 80 Stamina/Magicka Recovery per piece, for 700 Health Recovery and 560 Stamina/Magicka at 7/7. That Stamina/Magicka Recovery could be gated behind 5 pieces, as you describe in your passives, which would shift it to a flat value activated upon the 5/7 mark. 600 could be that flat value or 500. That range seems appropriate since it does buff Heavy Armor Recovery without going over the Health Recovery bonus. Why 700 for Health Recovery? Without Drink, my Health Recovery is at 1000 to 1200 (depending on jewelry) and the no modifiers base value is supposedly 500, so at present I receive a +500 to a +700 with the Constitution 28% and set/enchantment/CP modifiers.


My idea of Heavy Armor is to be something you never have to block in (barring Trials/Vet content). Wearing platemail should make you unstoppable, if slow. Blocking is something done for a tactical advantage, not a necessity for mitigating damage. CC immunity from Immovable and higher passive or long lasting active mitigation are what will allow Heavy Armor to play this way, the way that makes a brute force warrior swinging a greatsword in the thick of it a viable reality. That is the way I would like Heavy Armor to become.

Bashev

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Light armor - reduce magicka cost and magicka regen
Medium armor - reduce stamina cost and stamina regen
Heavy armor - why not reduce ultimate cost and ultimate regen?

Could work but then again there will already be enough meteor spam when TG update drops.

But in heavy you will be lacking some DPS compared to medium or light. Of course the resource management again will be *** and such change will benefit mostly DKs because of battle roar. But if we do not see any changes heavy will be useless and people will wear it not because of the passive but because of the heavy sets (reactive).
The only reason why I use heavy now, is the reactive set, Akaviri Dragonguard set or Durok set. What does it mean? These bonuses of the 5th piece are useful and they can go into heavy armor passives somehow.

Teridaxus

So....any idea if heavy will be mentioned in this eso live?

Ffastyl

It's on now so we'll see.

Ffastyl

Update 10 is the ETA on Heavy Armor buffs!

david.haypreub18_ESO

Ffastyl wrote: »

Update 10 is the ETA on Heavy Armor buffs!

Maybe. He just said something like update 10. This to me means that they're not doing anything now, and not for a while.

Terrible.

Jura23

Ffastyl wrote: »

Update 10 is the ETA on Heavy Armor buffs!

Would have to be huge buff if they really want to make heavy users hard to kill in PvP. If they want them at least to be on par with shield stackers, it would have to be monster buff.

Wollust

No ETA for now

Zheg

Incompetent is the word I keep coming back to. The reason we didn't get heavy armor changes right now is because they didn't want to push through too many changes at once, and because wrobel thinks that heavy armor starts off better than medium and light because it has 'so much more armor' to paraphrase, and while the heavy armor passives are 'really useful' (quoted) the extra armor/resist from heavy armor is supposedly a trade-off to having any sort of resource generation - which is what almost all of survival is dependent on.

Enjoy tanking in medium armor in pve, and enjoy being far more tanky in light using shield and medium using dodge roll in pvp.

Teridaxus

Welp...i waited since the beta for a useful heavy armour....i guess i can wait until update 10...

Forestd16b14_ESO

Ffastyl wrote: »

Update 10 is the ETA on Heavy Armor buffs!

Wait @Ffastyl I missed live cause of work HA buff are in for U10 ??

Mr.Hmm

When is the Update 10?
And what Update are we on currently?